46 réponses à ce sujet

[nicethugbert]

MANoob wrote...

Make us a demonstration build?

May do later, now just searched for a decent one, this one will do : http://nwn2db.com/bu...=339&version=1. Apart from getting paladin levels and divine feats too early (when they are not very useful and delay casting) it's fine imo.

The only reason for paladin in that build is for Divine Grace.  I wouldn't call it a Paladin unless I wanted to make a point or RP it like one, which also makes a point.


I'll take a cleric over a favored soul any day.  I find it more flexible and it's spellcasting advances faster.  Plus if I use Kaedrin's class Pack, I can take Holy Warrior feat.

MANoob wrote...

Are we bothering to clarify when all these advantages come into play?

Usually at/near epic levels, so what?

As a matter of preference, some people do not prefer to play a PC that sacrifices low level power for high level power.  Most of the game takes place at lower levels so that's where I prefer to concentrate.

MANoob wrote...

When does it get this advantage and is it worth more than having a crucial spell interupted in combat?

Your build does not even have full concentration ranks to begin with, wouldn't it be cheaper to just max it out and not burn feats on it? Besides, a cleric buffed with persisted/extended spells hardly even needs casting something in combat.

The Concentration DC when using Defensive casting is 15 + Spell level.  Combat casting gives +4 when Defensive Casting and Devout gives +1 all the time.

Casting cures, heals, restorations, etc. in combat is what divine casters do.  It's part of what makes them powerful.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 12 septembre 2010 - 09:24 .

[nicethugbert]

ANDY5151 wrote...

Thanks for all the help guys I have been educating myself...but I must say I am a bit overwhelmed haha...I am a Veteran MMO guy (WoW, SWG etc) and play rpgs like kotor and DA but man nothing is this complicated....is there a list of what classes get what and when? because I have ZERO clue how to multiclass well. I am sure the manuel has it so i will look but if anyone can point me to a chart.....thanks.

The manual is full of errors.  Plus it has a bunch of hype lifted out of D&D books.

You're better off using NWN2wikia, these forums, nwn2db, nwvault, Battle of th Builds module, Mithdradates Halls of Training, and ECBII.

[MANoob]

The only reason for paladin in that build is for Divine Grace.

Exactly what I said in the previous post - the reason to take paladin levels is divine grace

I wouldn't call it a Paladin unless I wanted to make a point or RP it like one, which also makes a point.

IMO pal/fs is the way to go if you want to play a 'paladin'. You get paladin stuff like high cha, high natural saves, divine shield&might while not being a gimp.

I'll take a cleric over a favored soul any day. I find it more flexible and it's spellcasting advances faster. Plus if I use Kaedrin's class Pack, I can take Holy Warrior feat.

That may be what you prefer, but actually fs can afford all the spells a battle cleric needs (since both forgo offensive spellcasting with the exception of a few spells) and eventually will become a better healer and melee combatant than a cleric (more spell slots, spontaneous casting of heal/regenerate, easy EDM, spontaneous mantles vs spells etc.). Kaedrin's pack is another story alltogether, it adds too many new things to account for, but I think that divine casters are no longer kings of melee in it.

As a matter of preference, some people do not prefer to play a PC that sacrifices low level power for high level power. Most of the game takes place at lower levels so that's where I prefer to concentrate.

Depends on the environment, and besides you hardly sacrifice anything if you aim for divine feats as a cha caster, A cleric aiming for EDM would struggle early on, yes.

The Concentration DC when using Defensive casting is 15 + Spell level. Combat casting gives +4 when Defensive Casting and Devout gives +1 all the time.



Casting cures, heals, restorations, etc. in combat is what divine casters do. It's part of what makes them powerful.

By the time you get really good healing spells worth casting in combat (e. g. heal) you probably would have enough concentration to cast it devensively anyway. Gloves of concentration would help as well, if available. In any case, if you're so worried about concentration checks you'd better take SF(Concentration) because it works for checks against damage too, while adding only 1 skillpoint less. Or just boost your CON a bit. Seriously, a dwarf with 10 CON?

[nicethugbert]

MANoob wrote...

I'll take a cleric over a favored soul any day. I find it more flexible and it's spellcasting advances faster. Plus if I use Kaedrin's class Pack, I can take Holy Warrior feat.

That may be what you prefer, but actually fs can afford all the spells a battle cleric needs (since both forgo offensive spellcasting with the exception of a few spells) and eventually will become a better healer and melee combatant than a cleric (more spell slots, spontaneous casting of heal/regenerate, easy EDM, spontaneous mantles vs spells etc.). Kaedrin's pack is another story alltogether, it adds too many new things to account for, but I think that divine casters are no longer kings of melee in it.

I'm not aware of any modules where I'd rather play NTB's Helmite Champion instead of Silvio of Silvanus.  I'd rather play Correllon Jr. or a Wood Elf version of Silvio instead of Silvio.   The Helmite Champion is one level behind Silvio in spellcasting and two behind Correllon Jr.  I've played that difference and I didn't like it.  Too slow. 

As you'll notice their is no more than a 1 point AB difference between any of them.  My version of Helmite Champion gets a direct 2 point melee damage advantage over Silvio and a 3 point advantage over Correllon Jr.  But, Silvio surpasses my Helmite Champion's 2 point damage advantage with his Dino Companion, plus he gets stone skin.  Besides, Silvio could trade in his Warhammer for a Bastard Sword too, narrowng the advantage down to 1.  The +4 AC Correllon Jr. gets from Mage Armor is godly until level 16, plus, it's fun for the whole party.  Correllon Jr. can craft magic items.  That's a good deal in some modules.

So, I'm not sure in which module an FS is guaranteed an advantage over a cleric or if the advantage is worth the wait.

MANoob wrote...

As a matter of preference, some people do not prefer to play a PC that sacrifices low level power for high level power. Most of the game takes place at lower levels so that's where I prefer to concentrate.

Depends on the environment, and besides you hardly sacrifice anything if you aim for divine feats as a cha caster, A cleric aiming for EDM would struggle early on, yes.

One or three EDM a day does not cut it.  It's a flash in the pan.  But a cleric/RDD would have an easier time getting EDM PLUS many turn undead per day.  Similar builds for paladin exist and a pure paladin will work too. 

MANoob wrote...

The Concentration DC when using Defensive casting is 15 + Spell level. Combat casting gives +4 when Defensive Casting and Devout gives +1 all the time.

Casting cures, heals, restorations, etc. in combat is what divine casters do. It's part of what makes them powerful.

By the time you get really good healing spells worth casting in combat (e. g. heal) you probably would have enough concentration to cast it devensively anyway. Gloves of concentration would help as well, if available. In any case, if you're so worried about concentration checks you'd better take SF(Concentration) because it works for checks against damage too, while adding only 1 skillpoint less. Or just boost your CON a bit. Seriously, a dwarf with 10 CON?

The only reason not to be in Defensive Casting Mode is because you
have a better chance of passing the check out of Defensive Casting mode
rather than in it, or, you have a good reason to use another mode.

The concentration spell check DC in Defensive
Casting mode is 15 + Spell Level.  Therefore it ranges from 16 to 24 without bonuses, less with, and
it's one check per round.

Without Defensive Casting, the caster risks an AoO
per opponent surrounding him.  Each of those AoOs always has a chance to
hit and rarely a 0% chance of not scoring a crit.  The AoOs give extra damage if they hit regardless of whether they interupt the spell or not.  The interupt chances and potential extra damage go up as
one gets surrounded.  Plus, the DCs can be much larger than 24.

Maxing concentration but without bonuses, you can always beat DC 16, i.e. the DC for a level 1 spell in Defensive Casting mode, at level 12, when a FS get's 6th level spells.  The earlier you get concentration bonuses, the earlier you can reliably cast cures and heals in combat.

If you take Devout and Combat Casting, have a 12 con and Bear's Endurance, and Gloves of Concentration or Skill Focus Concentration you will have a +11 concentration spell check bonus in Defensive Casting mode.  From 3rd level on, if you have the above scenario, you will be able to cast any of your spells in combat without interuption and without the possibility of any extra damage.

I have played modules where it was neccesary to cure in combat and there were no gloves of concentration, not even a hat or helm with +1 concentration, available at level 8 .

There is an advantage to taking Skill Focus Concetration over Combat Casting, if you had to make the choice.  Potions cause AoOs even when in Defensive Casting and Combat Casting does not apply then.  Hmm, maybe I should take both feats.  It'll also give me spare points for heal.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[MANoob]

I'm not aware of any modules where I'd rather play NTB's Helmite Champion instead of Silvio of Silvanus. I'd rather play Correllon Jr. or a Wood Elf version of Silvio instead of Silvio. The Helmite Champion is one level behind Silvio in spellcasting and two behind Correllon Jr. I've played that difference and I didn't like it. Too slow.

As you'll notice their is no more than a 1 point AB difference between any of them. My version of Helmite Champion gets a direct 2 point melee damage advantage over Silvio and a 3 point advantage over Correllon Jr. But, Silvio surpasses my Helmite Champion's 2 point damage advantage with his Dino Companion, plus he gets stone skin. Besides, Silvio could trade in his Warhammer for a Bastard Sword too, narrowng the advantage down to 1. The +4 AC Correllon Jr. gets from Mage Armor is godly until level 16, plus, it's fun for the whole party. Correllon Jr. can craft magic items. That's a good deal in some modules.

So, I'm not sure in which module an FS is guaranteed an advantage over a cleric or if the advantage is worth the wait.

Can't view the 1st build but in any case it boils down to how you built them. Cleric gets domains. FS gets free WF, WS, and resistances. Cleric has a faster spellcasting progression. FS has more spells/day and an ability to spontaneously cast them. At epic levels FS with the right multiclass gets EDM without gimping his stats. Cleric does not.

One or three EDM a day does not cut it. It's a flash in the pan. But a cleric/RDD would have an easier time getting EDM PLUS many turn undead per day. Similar builds for paladin exist and a pure paladin will work too.

Turn Undead is 3/day + Cha mod. So in fact fs will get more turning attempts. The paladin you've linked is probably as good as a pure paladin gets, but EDM cleric/rdd is simply weak early on and, while ok at higher levels, not overwhelming either.

The only reason not to be in Defensive Casting Mode is because you
have a better chance of passing the check out of Defensive Casting mode

You seem to be misinterpreting what defensive casting mode does. In it you still have to make a check when you're damaged normally, you just do not provoke AoO. Combat casting works only for defensive casting checks, not for damage checks.

Maxing concentration but without bonuses, you can always beat DC 16, i.e. the DC for a level 1 spell in Defensive Casting mode, at level 12, when a FS get's 6th level spells. The earlier you get concentration bonuses, the earlier you can reliably cast cures and heals in combat.

But you've got 14 base CON and bear's endurance, don't you? thats 95% to cast level 6 spells, Im sure you can get +1 concentration from some other source.

Modifié par MANoob, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:18 .

[nicethugbert]

MANoob wrote...
Can't view the 1st build but in any case it boils down to how you built them. Cleric gets domains. FS gets free WF, WS, and resistances. Cleric has a faster spellcasting progression. FS has more spells/day and an ability to spontaneously cast them. At epic levels FS with the right multiclass gets EDM without gimping his stats. Cleric does not.

Fixed the link.  The FS's weapon spec is no big deal because the best FS races don't have a str bonus but the best cleric races do.  Also, the best FS race, Aasimar has a +1 ECL.  This could be different using Kaedrin's because he has a race with 0 ECL and a +2 cha bonus.

I wonder how an FS would play in The Maimed God's Saga?  You would have to know the module in order to pick the right spells.  An FS is largely stuck with it's spell selection.  That alone makes an FS a no go for me 99% of the time.  An FS would be OK for farming in a PW where you know what spells to use for each opponent already.

FS has one extra spell per day for levels 6 through 9.  I wouldn't tolerate the slower spellcasting progression for that advantage.  I know this from experience, I didn't get past 6th level with my FS.  I take spell slot feats when I can't make up my mind.

Spontaneous cast is not so great.  With a cleric, if your spell selection is lacking then you change it on rest.  With an FS, you have to relevel.

Plus, clerics get heavy armor proficiency.  You don't always have quick access to mithril full plate.

MANoob wrote...
Turn Undead is 3/day + Cha mod. So in fact fs will get more turning attempts. The paladin you've linked is probably as good as a pure paladin gets, but EDM cleric/rdd is simply weak early on and, while ok at higher levels, not overwhelming either.

Ha, I'd written off turn Undead since the OC.  Actually, I did't find it any good in NWN either.  Forgot all about it's details.  Hmm, didn't clerics get level/day turn attemps in 3.0?

Any EDM build is going to want a high cha and str.  I see that they typically have a 21 or 22 cha regardless of whether it has FS levels or not.

MANoob wrote...

The only reason not to be in Defensive Casting Mode is because you
have a better chance of passing the check out of Defensive Casting mode

You seem to be misinterpreting what defensive casting mode does. In it you still have to make a check when you're damaged normally, you just do not provoke AoO. Combat casting works only for defensive casting checks, not for damage checks.

I some how missed that.  That does make Spell Focus Concentration more flexible than Combat Casting.  I'll have to adjust my builds accordingly.

MANoob wrote...

Maxing concentration but without bonuses, you can always beat DC 16, i.e. the DC for a level 1 spell in Defensive Casting mode, at level 12, when a FS get's 6th level spells. The earlier you get concentration bonuses, the earlier you can reliably cast cures and heals in combat.

But you've got 14 base CON and bear's endurance, don't you? thats 95% to cast level 6 spells, Im sure you can get +1 concentration from some other source.

Not the build you offered as a sample has 14 constitution.

None of this reduces the importance of concentration bonuses and Defensive Casting, the opposite really.

[Ravenfeeder]

I find myself playing a Palading quite often in NWN2 scenarios. It may not be the most powerful class and my way of playing them may not be optimal, but I still find them the most enjoyable for the following reasons.

1. Decent warrior can mix it toe to toe with most monsters. Again maybe not the best, but decent.

2. Diplomacy as a class skill. Hey! I can enjoy all the talky bits as a warrior type. Cool.

3. Some healing, especially as Heal is a class skill as well. Less need for a dedicated healer in the party, so I can take companions that interest me more.

4. Very high saving throws. A life-saver.

I never take spells as I find they are always too low level to make a difference when you take them. As a bonus it means I don't have to have a high Wis so I can put more into Str (better fighting) and Cha (better talking, saving throws and feat bonuses).

[MANoob]

Fixed the link. The FS's weapon spec is no big deal because the best FS races don't have a str bonus but the best cleric races do. Also, the best FS race, Aasimar has a +1 ECL. This could be different using Kaedrin's because he has a race with 0 ECL and a +2 cha bonus.

Well, ECL 0 races are pretty even for cleric and fs. It's either human or shield(cleric)/gold(fs) dwarf or maybe wood elf. Clerics have a better ECL 1 race (gray orc), but at ECL2(used for power building) yuan ti reigns supreme and it's better for fs. For low level modules you usally use ECL 0 races.

I wonder how an FS would play in The Maimed God's Saga? You would have to know the module in order to pick the right spells. An FS is largely stuck with it's spell selection. That alone makes an FS a no go for me 99% of the time. An FS would be OK for farming in a PW where you know what spells to use for each opponent already.

Haven't played that module, just searched for it and it says it's for clerics only, so I guess it may require some specific spells to solve some quests or something like that. You can make a module tailored specifically for just about any class. But in your average hack&slash module fs easily covers all bases of a battle cleric with ac/ab/damage buffs plus some healing, mantles and immunity spells. Generally speaking, it is prepared spellcasting that benefits from knowing what you are going to face. A cleric has to think how many mantles, heals or buffs he needs. FS can cast them according to the given situation. Now if a cleric knew what he would face, he can prepare some specialized spells fs simply won't take. Note that many of these spells require good DC and do not work well for melee clerics.

Plus, clerics get heavy armor proficiency. You don't always have quick access to mithril full plate.

Well, thats a pro. FS will get it too eventually (because fs should multiclass sooner or later) but in a low level module where you can't get mithril armor you may end up taking proficiency as a feat.

None of this reduces the importance of concentration bonuses and Defensive Casting, the opposite really.

Not saying that defensive casting is bad, just Combat Casting feat is not very good since there are other ways to boost concentration and it ends up being redundant.

2Ravenfeeder:
I agree that paladin spells are generally not worth the trouble, but Holy Sword is not bad at all, so imo it's generally a good idea to have enough wis to be able to cast it with a +wis item.

Modifié par MANoob, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:02 .

[nicethugbert]

MANoob wrote...

Well, ECL 0 races are pretty even for cleric and fs. It's either human or shield(cleric)/gold(fs) dwarf or maybe wood elf. Clerics have a better ECL 1 race (gray orc), but at ECL2(used for power building) yuan ti reigns supreme and it's better for fs. For low level modules you usally use ECL 0 races.

Wood Elf is my prefered ECL 0 race for cleric:
1]  Can get 18 str, 10 dex, 12 con, 12 int, 16 wis, 08 cha
2) Long Sword, Short Sword, Long Bow, Short Bow Proficiencies.
3)  Low Light Vision

Dwarf and Half Orc have a certain coolness factor, but, I think Wood Elf has the edge.  Plus a Cleric of Correllon is legit yet interesting and not so gimpy.

MANoob wrote...

I wonder how an FS would play in The Maimed God's Saga? You would have to know the module in order to pick the right spells. An FS is largely stuck with it's spell selection. That alone makes an FS a no go for me 99% of the time. An FS would be OK for farming in a PW where you know what spells to use for each opponent already.

Haven't played that module, just searched for it and it says it's for clerics only, so I guess it may require some specific spells to solve some quests or something like that. You can make a module tailored specifically for just about any class. But in your average hack&slash module fs easily covers all bases of a battle cleric with ac/ab/damage buffs plus some healing, mantles and immunity spells. Generally speaking, it is prepared spellcasting that benefits from knowing what you are going to face. A cleric has to think how many mantles, heals or buffs he needs. FS can cast them according to the given situation. Now if a cleric knew what he would face, he can prepare some specialized spells fs simply won't take. Note that many of these spells require good DC and do not work well for melee clerics.

Anybody bennefits from knowing the module except for the lack of surprise, suspense, etc.  But, FS has to relevel to get a now useful spell that he doesn't have.  Cleric can just go rest, module permitting.  That's an advantage I really like.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 16 septembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[Thorsson64]

Dorf Cleric FTW. -2 Str and -2 Dex (which seems totally unnecessary) for +4 Con. And then compare the racial goodies. Dorf Cleric FTW.

[nicethugbert]

And Dorf would be a half Dwarf half Orc?

[The Fred]

Why would a half dwarf half orc get -2 Str and Dex? It'd probably be -4 Cha or something.

[lolmre]

ANDY5151 wrote...

So I would like to play a Paladin that is at LEAST close to a pure paladin....is this even viable?  I have never really gone deeply into neverwinter nights altghough I am familiar with the basic d and rules (thank you kotor).  Anyways I know going PURE paladin is not the way to go soooo what should i multiclass that does not go too far away from a paladin...like a cleric favored soul etc...

Hi, pure Paladin is just fine . Just take divine might and shield and practiced spellcater(if I'm not mistaken ) and you will be fine.
Plus the best looking sword in the game :happy: (personal opinion) .

[The Fred]

Practised Spellcaster is only really useful if you intend to multiclass, and only for spellcasters. As stated, a Paladin isn't much of a spellcaster due to the small number and low power of the spells s/he gets. Paladin spells can be handy - having a couple of Cures can be nice, depending a bit on the module, and certain weapon buffs (Holy Sword ofc, maybe Deafening Clang?) and protection spells are quite nice. Your offensive spells will stink, but I don't think Pallys get that many offensive spells, anyway.

[nicethugbert]

Kaedrin's class pack has an option to make paladin caster level equal to paladin class level. Turning that one would makePaladin spellcasting worth while. You'll have a few really good spells worth preserving for special moments. It'll break the monotony of playing a gimped fighter all the time.

[Thorsson64]

Dorf is just a Dwarfish way of saying Dwarf. Any fule no that. And my numbers were compared to a Wood Elf, as was being touted.

[lolmre]

The Fred wrote...

Practised Spellcaster is only really useful if you intend to multiclass, and only for spellcasters. As stated, a Paladin isn't much of a spellcaster due to the small number and low power of the spells s/he gets. Paladin spells can be handy - having a couple of Cures can be nice, depending a bit on the module, and certain weapon buffs (Holy Sword ofc, maybe Deafening Clang?) and protection spells are quite nice. Your offensive spells will stink, but I don't think Pallys get that many offensive spells, anyway.

Well I don't know is it bug but PS works just fine. Gives you additional 24 seconds to "Holy sword" and "Prayer"(even at levels 20 and 30) and I'm not sure about this but it should makes your buffs harder to dispel also.

[Haplose]

Yeah, it's because Paladins get Caster Levels at 1/2 of their class levels.

Practiced Caster gives them 4 full CLs - the equivalent of 8 Paladin levels for spell durations and resistance to dispells. It can be also usefull to maximize the effect of, say, Divine Favour (+3 Attack/Damage) on Paladin level 10 instead of 18...

[The Fred]

Oh OK, fair enough. I would have thought it would have given you +4 pally levels if you multiclass (I know there is the EK bug but I didn't really realise it extended to paladins).

[Adam024]

I have often wondered why Paladin is a starter class and Blackguard is a prestige class

[The Fred]

Whether or not a class is a base or prestige class is always a little subjective, imo.

[kamalpoe]

Adam024 wrote...

I have often wondered why Paladin is a starter class and Blackguard is a prestige class

Being a Paladin is not prestigious. Being a Blackguard is. QED.