123 réponses à ce sujet

[darknoon5]

DetailedSubset wrote...

Geth Pulse Rifle.

Epic post.
I prefer the mattock personally, but with adrenaline rush both are great...depends on your playstyle, I guess.

[JaegerBane]

DetailedSubset wrote...

Geth Pulse Rifle.

That wasn't a phrase I expected to hear in a Rev vs Mattock thread. That's like being asked do you prefer McClaren F1 or Ferrari and answering 'I like a skateboard....'

[DetailedSubset]

JaegerBane wrote...

DetailedSubset wrote...

Geth Pulse Rifle.

That wasn't a phrase I expected to hear in a Rev vs Mattock thread. That's like being asked do you prefer McClaren F1 or Ferrari and answering 'I like a skateboard....'

more like "I like a rocket ship...." but otherwise yeah, not really relevant. 

[greed89]

The M-76 Revenant Light Machine Gun-When you absolutely positively gotta kill every Sentient in the room- Accept no substitutes

[kiltysue]

Certainly a playstyle difference. I think they're both great. The revenant by far, has the best sound and fire animations under heightened AR. I tend to alternate between them, depending on whether I want more mid/short ranged or mid/long optimization as a second priority. Since they're both way overpowered, I tend to pick the one that sounds better. Revenant, under heightened AR!

[Athenau]

Outside of AR, its actually worse than both the Vindicator and Revenant since no human can click fast enough to achieve its theoretical DPS. The Mattock's refire rate is crazy

The Mattock is equivalent or better than the Vindicator in every aspect apart from hip-fire accuracy, which no one cares about anyway. It makes the Vindicator totally obsolete.

As for Mattock vs Revenant...it makes the Revenant pretty obsolete too, unfortunately.

Modifié par Athenau, 29 septembre 2010 - 10:00 .

[swn32]

Mattock all the way. Even without AR, if you can get 8 or more clicks per second (which is very easy) you'll outdamage the Revenant. Also factoring in the accuracy makes it an easy winner. You can consistently get headshots from pretty much any range. With AR, it destroys the Revenant by a huge margin. Its almost the same case with any games. In counterstrike, it would be comparing steyr aug with m249. No one would ever choose m249.

Then again its a singleplayer game, I'd say go with the weapon that you find more fun regardless of effectiveness.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 12:24 .

[Forst1999]

I don't like the Mattock. Outside of AR it is weaker Viper, in AR it becomes a monster. If my calculations are correct, you would need to fire 6,5 shots a second to match the Revenant, 4,6 to match the Vindicator. I achieve 2,7 shots/sec (granted, i've got rather dumb fingers).

In an AR it for sure stomps them in the ground DPS wise, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Like some kind of exploit. I can't remember or test right now, but do other semi-automatic weapons like the Viper or the Carnifex too have this ridiculous fire rate in an AR?

[swn32]

Probably its hard to click rapidly using a trigger (just guessing, havent tried it myself). With a mouse button I can consistently pull of 8 clicks a second.

And no, Viper can pull off around 5 shots in AR, mattock can empty a clip. Mattock's theoretical fire rate is way higher. If you can click fast enough, you can fire 12.5 rounds per second which is impossible for me. 8 shots per second however is very doable.

Only an upgraded(tungsten sabot jacket) Viper outdamages Mattock against armor, but only against armor not health/shields/barriers.

If you only consider short term DPS (reloading excluded), then Mattock crushes even Viper. So if you have 3 enemies you need to take out quick, Mattock is the weapon of choice since reloading wont even be necessary.

Since reloading can be done in cover, you wont have to expose yourself much and still maintain the DPS. Where as with revenant, you have to be close enough (so that you dont miss any shot), fire full auto and stay out of cover if you want to reach its theoretical DPS (which is still lower than the pratical DPS you can get out of Mattock). At such a range, you can get 100% headshots without sacrificing firerate (7-8 shots per second) with the Mattock.

Revenants advantage is its ammo capacity. But I've seen if you pickup all the thermal clips that are on your way, dont miss too many shots and fire in Heightened AR whenever possible, you can make it through Insanity without ever running out of Mattock ammunition.

All in all revenant is just a fun weapon when you want to go all rambo. Its effectiveness cannot be compared with Mattock's.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 02:18 .

[Forst1999]

Yes, more ammunition isn't a bonus on Assault Rifles and SMGs. Never ran out of ammo on either. On Shotguns, Sniper Rifles and even Pistols it is an important point, but as much as i love the Revenant, you can't count that as a plus point.

Still can't click more than roughly 3 times a second (mouse, i guess with my controller i'm even slower), which leaves the Mattock comparable to the Vindicator outside of AR, but maybe that's just me.

[JaegerBane]

swn32 wrote...
Revenants advantage is its ammo capacity. But I've seen if you pickup all the thermal clips that are on your way, dont miss too many shots and fire in Heightened AR whenever possible, you can make it through Insanity without ever running out of Mattock ammunition.

This isn't really anything to do with the Mattock, though. This is to do with a player's style and marksmenship. Obviously a weapon with the Mattock's damage per shot and accuracy will always favour a player who prefers to stand back and use precision and minimal shots to wipe out enemies.

However, to claim that a weapon that can empty it's entire a clip in a single AR, and can only carry another 4 clips in reserve at a time, 'can make it through Insanity without ever running out of Mattock ammunition' so long as you 'don't miss' and spam AR and give yourself a numb finger is logically no different from claiming that the Mattock's DPS isn't anywhere near the Rev's on multiple opponents so long as you stay up close and fire on full auto.

All you've done is a constructed a scenario that favours one weapon over the other and then applied it to both, then claim the result is supposed to prove the favoured weapon is better. It's meaningless. It's like having two runners in a race, one starting 100m behind the other then claiming the one ahead is the better runner.

The issue here is that they're both intended for completely different styles of play. The particular style of play that the Rev favours doesn't work properly if you're using a weapon that burns it's stock in a single AR and requires you to relentlessly run around picking up clips. The Rev is intended for running and gunning against many opponents, as evidenced by it's full auto capability and the clip to support it. *Obviously*, trying to use the Revenant as a battle rifle is going to produce a skewed result, and it works vice versa, too.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[swn32]

JaegerBane wrote...

However, to claim that a weapon that can empty it's entire a clip in a single AR, and can only carry another 4 clips in reserve at a time, 'can make it through Insanity without ever running out of Mattock ammunition' so long as you 'don't miss' and spam AR and give yourself a numb finger is logically no different from claiming that the Mattock's DPS isn't anywhere near the Rev's so long as you stay up close and fire on full auto.

Wrong. Rev up close on full auto still does lower DPS than Mattock up close at 8 shots per second. Mattock is better in every situation (all ranges, all types of defenses). The only place where Revenant would win is if you miss many shots and run out of ammo.

JaegerBane wrote...
All you've done is a constructed a scenario that favours one weapon over the other and then applied it to both, then claim the result is supposed to prove the favoured weapon is better. It's meaningless. It's like having two runners in a race, one starting 100m behind the other then claiming the one ahead is the better runner.

If you even read my post fully you would know I was comparing them to revenant fired full auto without missing (the most ideal situation for revenant). Even then it doesnt compare.

JaegerBane wrote...
The issue here is that they're both intended for completely different styles of play. The particular style of play that the Rev favours doesn't work properly if you're using a weapon that burns it's stock in a single AR and requires you to relentlessly run around picking up clips. The Rev is intended for running and gunning against many opponents, as evidenced by it's full auto capability and the clip to support it. *Obviously*, trying to use the Revenant as a battle rifle is going to produce a skewed result, and it works vice versa, too.

Even running and gunning can be done better with the Mattock. Only catch is you have to quickly aim/quickly switch targets and rapidly tap your fire button. Even accounting for its constant need to reload, it does better DPS than revenant. Obviously if your playstyle favours spraying, then mattock isnt the right weapon. Mattock in the right hands is better than Revenant in the right hands.

Moreover you never have to run around picking up clips during a battle. Most of the clips that are dropped by the enemies suffice.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 03:27 .

[sinosleep]

swn32 wrote...

Mattock all the way. Even without AR, if you can get 8 or more clicks per second (which is very easy) you'll outdamage the Revenant. Also factoring in the accuracy makes it an easy winner. You can consistently get headshots from pretty much any range. With AR, it destroys the Revenant by a huge margin. Its almost the same case with any games. In counterstrike, it would be comparing steyr aug with m249. No one would ever choose m249.

Then again its a singleplayer game, I'd say go with the weapon that you find more fun regardless of effectiveness.

I wouldn't say that, most people haven't been able to get to 8 in threads in which I've posted this in

http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html


this was the best I could manage without controting my hand into a position which resulting in more clicks but would be unplayable.



That's 6.5, and it's in the second highest bracket, averaging 8 would put you at the max count.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 septembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[JaegerBane]

swn32 wrote...

Wrong. Rev up close on full auto still does lower DPS than Mattock up close at 8 shots per second. Mattock is better in every situation (all ranges, all types of defenses). The only place where Revenant would win is if you miss many shots and run out of ammo.

Again, this is the point. You've added this assumption that you're never going to run out of ammo and that you hit more often than missing, apparently for no reason. Obviously adding in lots of loverly pro-Mattock constraints is going to skew the result. Look at the Revenant videos online - the ones where the player ends up charging groups and, rather than taking a breather, continuously pushes them. *That* is the kind of playstyle the Rev is intended for. The kind of playstyle where the Mattock would run out of ammo after killing the third enemy in a row.

Obviously, if you don't play like that, the Rev isn't going to be that useful. But that's a completely different argument.

And by the way, you haven't responded to my updated post - I'd forgotten to add a crucial qualifer. Not unlike your qualifier where you mentioned not missing many shots

If you even read my post fully you would know I was comparing them to revenant fired full auto without missing (the most ideal situation for revenant). Even then it doesnt compare.

Oh please swn, let's not start the old 'read my post properly cliche'  again. I responded directly to what you said. Unless you're claiming that Mattock can keep firing for the same amount of time as the Rev can (in terms of per clip and per ammo load) then you're dodging the issue with the above reply.

Even running and gunning can be done better with the Mattock. Only catch is you have to quickly aim/quickly switch targets and rapidly tap your fire button.

So essentially, the Mattock is better for running and gunning.... so long as we use your set of constraints? Do you not see the problem here? I mean, are we to argue Sniper Rifles are better than Shotguns so long as you stay away from enemies before the penny drops? Or do we have go further and start arguing that H2O is wet but only if it isn't frozen?

You've illustrated the problem right there - what you've effectively said is that so long as you aim quickly and are fighting under a certain number of enemies and can click the fire button a certain number of times, then it's better. That logic would state I can cycle faster than I can drive, provided that my car has no petrol. It's just gets silly when you start tacking on all these qualifiers for no real reason, as they obscure the point.

Presumably you deny the existence of any situation where you can't click the button that fast, that there are more enemies than you have ammo to comfortably deal with and that you always aim quickly. Whether or not you choose to believe such situations exist is irrelevant to the question asked - the issue here is that the Revenant works better in those situations. Someone playing in the style the Rev favours will encounter those situations all the time.

Even accounting for its constant need to reload, it does better DPS than revenant. Obviously if your playstyle favours spraying, then mattock isnt the right weapon. Mattock in the right hands is better than Revenant in the right hands.

But presumably not accounting for the amount of time it takes to run dry and you start having to bite into your DPS because your gun won't fire without recovering more ammo. That point will arrive very quickly on the Mattock while you can literally ignore ammo concerns altogether for all but the longest battles with the Rev.

This is the problem with judging a weapon on solely DPS. It's not an indicator that can realistically tell you everything about the effectiveness of a weapon, and the fact of the matter is the Mattock trades stamina and sustainability for accuracy and DPS - so to claim it has a higher DPS is just stating the obvious.

Moreover you never have to run around picking up clips during a battle. Most of the clips that are dropped by the enemies suffice.

Unless you're claiming that these clips somehow come to you of their own accord, then you're heading off into fantasy land here. All but the smallest firefights have too many variables and too many enemies for you to claim with any kind of justification that you can manage it without having to do something about your ammo levels *every time*, and for every second you do this is a second in the Rev's favour.

All I'm actually saying here is that the Rev is diametrically opposed to the Mattock, in the same way that the Viper is to the Widow - they emphasise different playstyles and accordingly have different strengths and weaknesses (and, to be quite honest, shouldn't really be in the same class of weapon). In order to realistically compare them, you have to start with how the player is wanting to play and go from there. You seem to be making the mistake of assuming everyone plays like you do and therefore your experiences with the Mattock somehow apply to everyone, no matter how they prefer to play -  and you go as far to claim a weapon that empties it's entire stock in the space of 5 ARs will not have an issue with ammo.

[swn32]

sinosleep wrote..

That's 6.5, and it's in the second highest bracket, averaging 8 would put you at the max count.

Thats an average over 10 seconds without a break. If you take a break every now and then to reload or go into AR where you click at a slower rate, then its possible to get 8 clicks per second quite comfortably.

JaegarBane wrote...

Again, this is the point. You've added this assumption that you're never going to run out of ammo and that you hit more often than missing, apparently for no reason. Obviously adding in lots of loverly pro-Mattock constraints is going to skew the result. Look at the Revenant videos online - the ones where the player ends up charging groups and, rather than taking a breather, continuously pushes them. *That* is the kind of playstyle the Rev is intended for. The kind of playstyle where the Mattock would run out of ammo after killing the third enemy in a row. 
Obviously, if you don't play like that, the Rev isn't going to be that useful. But that's a completely different argument. 
And by the way, you haven't responded to my updated post - I'd forgotten to add a crucial qualifer. Not unlike your qualifier where you mentioned not missing many shots 

That assumption is based on how I play. I dont usually miss shots at mid range or less. Miss a few at long range but thats about it. Regarding ammo, I'm usually able to refill the Mattock to 80 bullets after every battle. There are lots of ammo pickups. You don't have to go out of you way to look for them.

That being said, multiple enemies also works with Mattock. If your assault rifle is sufficiently upgraded, you can easily take out 3 mooks over the course of 1 heightened Adrenaline rush (just aim for the head). After that  its possible to spend the remaining ammo on a 4th enemy. All this done in around 1.5 seconds of game time. If there are more enemies around you have to reload and continue. 

JaegarBane wrote...

Oh please swn, let's not start the old 'read my post properly cliche'  again. I responded directly to what you said. Unless you're claiming that Mattock can keep firing for the same amount of time as the Rev can (in terms of per clip and per ammo load) then you're dodging the issue with the above reply.

I'm not saying that Mattock can keep firing for the same amount of time as the Rev. What I'm saying is it can shell out damage much faster and end the battles much more quickly. 

JaegarBane wrote...
So essentially, the Mattock is better for running and gunning.... so long as we use your set of constraints? Do you not see the problem here? I mean, are we to argue Sniper Rifles are better than Shotguns so long as you stay away from enemies before the penny drops? Or do we have go further and start arguing that H2O is wet but only if it isn't frozen?
You've illustrated the problem right there - what you've effectively said is that so long as you aim quickly and are fighting under a certain number of enemies and can click the fire button a certain number of times, then it's better. That logic would state I can cycle faster than I can drive, provided that my car has no petrol. It's just gets silly when you start tacking on all these qualifiers for no real reason, as they obscure the point.
Presumably you deny the existence of any situation where you can't click the button that fast, that there are more enemies than you have ammo to comfortably deal with and that you always aim quickly. Whether or not you choose to believe such situations exist is irrelevant to the question asked - the issue here is that the Revenant works better in those situations. Someone playing in the style the Rev favours will encounter those situations all the time.

Thats the way a Mattock is meant to be used. You have to be good at aiming and fast at tapping to use that weapon. These arent really ridiculous constraints. If you cannot do that, then Mattock isnt for you. But those who can use the Mattock that way, can easily outdamage Revenant used by another skilled person.

The cycle vs car comparison made no sense. I am not putting the revenant in an unoptimal situation while comparing. My constraint was that the person who uses the Mattock knows how to use it effectively. If someone cant use a weapon effectively, it doesnt mean the weapon is bad. That someone is doing it wrong.

JaegarBane wrote...

But presumably not accounting for the amount of time it takes to run dry and you start having to bite into your DPS because your gun won't fire without recovering more ammo. That point will arrive very quickly on the Mattock while you can literally ignore ammo concerns altogether for all but the longest battles with the Rev.
This is the problem with judging a weapon on solely DPS. It's not an indicator that can realistically tell you everything about the effectiveness of a weapon, and the fact of the matter is the Mattock trades stamina and sustainability for accuracy and DPS - so to claim it has a higher DPS is just stating the obvious.

Battles end before ammo count reaches zero. Restock after the battle. With the mattock there really isnt such a thing as a long battle.

But seriously, ammo is the only thing Revenant has. It has nothing else speaking for it. If Mattock frequently ran out of ammo, then it would be a serious negative. But it doesnt and hence it isn't.

Like I said earlier, even in other games very few people would want to trade accuracy and DPS for more ammo. Take counterstrike for example.

JaegarBane wrote...

Unless you're claiming that these clips somehow come to you of their own accord, then you're heading off into fantasy land here. All but the smallest firefights have too many variables and too many enemies for you to claim with any kind of justification that you can manage it without having to do something about your ammo levels *every time*, and for every second you do this is a second in the Rev's favour.

As long as its not done during a battle its not in Rev's favour. And if the ammo clips are on your way, then where are you losing time?

All I'm actually saying here is that the Rev is diametrically opposed to the Mattock, in the same way that the Viper is to the Widow - they emphasise different playstyles and accordingly have different strengths and weaknesses (and, to be quite honest, shouldn't really be in the same class of weapon). In order to realistically compare them, you have to start with how the player is wanting to play and go from there. You seem to be making the mistake of assuming everyone plays like you do and therefore your experiences with the Mattock somehow apply to everyone, no matter how they prefer to play -  and you go as far to claim a weapon that empties it's entire stock in the space of 5 ARs will not have an issue with ammo. 

On that we agree, the weapons fully depend on playstyles. Obviously someone else may be able to use Revenant way better than how they use Mattock. Depending on your playstyle these weapons will have strengths or weaknesses.

But thats totally not the point of my posts. If we are comparing weapon potentials only, then Mattock has more potential than Revenant. In the right hands mattock can be more effective than Revenant can ever be.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[Kronner]

So you are saying you can fire 8 Mattock shots at multiple targets, all shots hit and you do that in 1 second real-time (no Adrenaline Rush)?. I'd love to see a video.

[swn32]

Great job combining different sentences into one completely nonsensical statement. I never said you can pull of 8 shots per second against multiple enemies without AR.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:53 .

[Kronner]

You said "If you can click fast enough, you can fire 12.5 rounds per second which is impossible for me. 8 shots per second however is very doable."

so maybe I misunderstood, sorry if that's the case.

[swn32]

You can fire 8 shots a second, against one target easily without AR. Not against multiple targets. Against multiple targets it will take slightly more due to the time it takes to switch targets (still better than Revenant). But its not like Revenant users dont have to switch between targets while firing.

Modifié par swn32, 30 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Athenau]

I agree with swn32. It's very easy for me to do 8 clicks per second for long enough to empty a Mattock mag.  Also, people are misunderstanding the utility of the Mattock's dps.  It's not that you can go around blasting everything that moves at the max fire rate and not run out of ammo--most of the time you'd want to go slower and aim carefully, but you have the ability to put a crap-ton of firepower down range when necessary, like when Harbinger bum-rushes you and you pump 16 rounds straight into his ugly glowing face.

Modifié par Athenau, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

I've been playing a Widow/Mattock soldier, and the only time it's been subpar to the Revenant is on the derelict Reaper. The best I could do was cryo ammo + ARush, which can take out one husk in 3-4 shots, and a total of 2.5 husks in one Arush. The bad part is when ARush ends, and it also suffers from too much reloading. The Revy continues after the ARush, sometimes long enough to start another ARush, so it's a continuous stream of awesome. Mattock was adequate, but definately needed frugal bullet-counting and finesse timing of squad powers to match up to what the Revy can do on that mission. The Mattock can't completely replace the Revy. Almost, but not completely.

I actually really pity the Avenger; it's now the Cleveland Cavaliers of assault rifles.

[Athenau]

I've been playing a Widow/Mattock soldier, and the only time it's been subpar to the Revenant is on the derelict Reaper. The best I could do was cryo ammo + ARush, which can take out one husk in 3-4 shots, and a total of 2.5 husks in one Arush. The bad part is when ARush ends, and it also suffers from too much reloading. The Revy continues after the ARush, sometimes long enough to start another ARush, so it's a continuous stream of awesome. Mattock was adequate, but definately needed frugal bullet-counting and finesse timing of squad powers to match up to what the Revy can do on that mission. The Mattock can't completely replace the Revy. Almost, but not completely.

That mission was cake with the Mattock. Inferno ammo + 3 shots to the leg = dead husk. It would probably be even quicker with cryo. Of course it's even quicker to strip defenses with AR and use squadmate shockwave/area pull/neural shockwave/area cryo blast.

Modifié par Athenau, 30 septembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[swn32]

Yeah, I always shoot husks in the legs. The rate at which husks come I usually manage to reload before they get to me. Also I skip the reaper core part using the Cain.

[Nooneyouknow13]

sinosleep wrote...

swn32 wrote...

Mattock all the way. Even without AR, if you can get 8 or more clicks per second (which is very easy) you'll outdamage the Revenant. Also factoring in the accuracy makes it an easy winner. You can consistently get headshots from pretty much any range. With AR, it destroys the Revenant by a huge margin. Its almost the same case with any games. In counterstrike, it would be comparing steyr aug with m249. No one would ever choose m249.

Then again its a singleplayer game, I'd say go with the weapon that you find more fun regardless of effectiveness.

I wouldn't say that, most people haven't been able to get to 8 in threads in which I've posted this in

http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html


this was the best I could manage without controting my hand into a position which resulting in more clicks but would be unplayable.



That's 6.5, and it's in the second highest bracket, averaging 8 would put you at the max count.

Indeed. Just clicking normally I'll hit between 55 to 59, decreasing on successive tests.  I can easily exceed 80+ by reposistioning my arm, but at that speed I can't keep the mouse steady and lose clicks by the pointer going off target.

[Alamar2078]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

I've been playing a Widow/Mattock soldier, and the only time it's been subpar to the Revenant is on the derelict Reaper.

IMHO [obviously opinion only] I had a far easier and more effective time using the Mattock on that level than the Revvy by a huge margin.  For most of the level there are HUGE quantities of ammo laying around everywhere.  In the few times where I ran low-ish there were either power cells that I could get before the next encounter or 3-4 clips laying in one big pile.  In addition only at the very end of the level are you forced to fight up-close and personal where the Revvy would [theoretically] come into its own.

Even at the end though the level design played right into the Mattock's hands because in one AR it was simple to strip a husk's armor, shoot it in the leg [auto kill], move to the next husk almost without even moving my weapon sighting, strip it's armor and maybe kill it then AR would end.  I'd reload.  Zaaed would either use a Concussive Blast to autokill a husk with stripped armor or a grenade would get touched off and the Mattock would kill a bunch of low / unarmored husks in the next round of AR.  Grunt with a Claymore, Concussive, and Fortification was pretty much unstoppable.

When the IRIS would open you could just go to town pumping in as many shots as you felt like and tear it a new one.  Clips autospawned with each wave of Husks so you could keep up massive waves of fire.

Now you can claim that you can pretty much continuously fire the Revvy at such close ranges and not have to worry about going into AR to really get your damage up / manage ammo.  This is likely true.  My issue is when I do that I lose myself in the battle and don't properly manage the battlefield.  The brief periods between AR can be used to reload the Mattock and survey the field, use team powers, etc. then when the next AR came around you were a killing machine again and the Revvy can't compete at that point.

For me even in a level that seems designed for the Revvy I find it less effective than the Mattock.