1339 réponses à ce sujet

[AstralStorm]

Another lovable fake choice. What's there to stop them from bombing the facility say a day later, since it's already known?
(And there can be no excuse of Shepard's horrible bookkeeping either, it's the Council telling him/her to go there.)

What matters is that Saren is apprehended, not whether the nuke goes off... In fact, nuking the facility while there are two teams fighting is completely irresponsible.

[houseMDfan]

I let Ash live because I hoped I would be able to change her mind on aliens. I was not bothered by any of her other beliefs really, even if mine butts heads with hers. Though, the very first time I accidentally killed her because I thought that she'd be able to get out of there in time. I dunno why I thought that.

[Baboontje]

Ashley never lives past Virmire in any of my paythroughs. Honestly, I'm a sucker for Kaidan. Even when I'm attempting to start a playthrough with no romances so I can get into a romance in ME2 without feeling guilty, I will still romance him. Which means I have to start yet again a new playthrough to try again. x)

[RedPhoenix 96]

i usually save Kaidan because it just seems he has so much more going for him while i always picture Ashley as a big hero who has accomplished so much so i always give her a noble warriors death.

[TheGreekLord]

ummm...I saved Ashley,'cause Kaidan is a bit boring,but most of all because she is a girl.

[TomN7]

Honestly. I think of BOTH Kaidan and Ashley, along with all of you companions from ME1 and ME2 as family. Kaidan is like my Shepard's brother and Ashley my Shepard's sister.

On Virmire - I chose Kaidan. Why? Because he's been with Shepard longer than Ashley. They have done alot together. I was sorry for leaving Ashley. I find it hard to leave Kaidan so I choose him all the time.

On Horizon, I was, at first, pissed with him. But then I thought it over and I understand why he acted like a jerk. I don't blame neither Kaidan or Ashley. I blame the Illusive Man. I bet not only did he know that his and Shepard's partnership will end once the Collectors are destroyed - he was trying to keep Shepard in Cerberus. Also trying to keep Shepard away from his friends in the Alliance, and believing he "ownes" him. But I proved the Illusive Man wrong when I chose to ignite the Collector Base and told him to fall in line or step aside but to stay outta my way.

BTW, I hope you can mend your friendship with Kaidan/Ashley in ME3. THAT is one thing I'm excited about.

[T3hMerc]

Because I'm a pretty militant atheist, and she was religious. Plus, she wasn't interesting, just generic tough chick with a flair for the poetic. I have never let her into my squad after grabbin' Garrus.

[Fiuskera]

YR_Lim wrote...

Saved Kaiden and let god save Ashley.

I can understand very easy the hate for religious people, they are realy close minded and the public of Scify are generaly skeptic about religion.

[SeanNorm]

Kirrahe and his team survive so long as you take out the Geth Flyers... just puttin' it out there

[Drumsmasher]

Ashley was annoying, really. First of all, she was against having aliens on the Normandy, and second of all, if my paragon sheploo talked to her, he started spouting poetry I've never heard of, and that made me go wtf. I wanted to give Kaidan a second chance to be interesting in ME3, and romanced Liara. I'm not much for romancing aliens, but Liara (and all asari) are an exception.

[Meadow]

Honestly I like Kaidan a lot better and I think it fits his story arc better for him to survive (and it fits Ashley's perfectly for her to die on Virme). I kind of wish they had found someone other than James to fill in for the dead team member but I can live with that.

[Sanuman]

On my only playthrough Kaiden had the bomb; couldn't risk the Geth defeating him and disabling it - if they're machines they could no doubt disable the nuke. And I felt vindicated when Saren made his hilarious hoverboard assault.

Obviously you can see I'm trying to properly RP this (HURR DURR it's not real he attacks at whicever one you save hurr durr)

Modifié par Sanuman, 07 mars 2012 - 02:08 .

[Iceman22012]

As a combat choice, I think kaiden was among the best. His range of biotic powers made him a serious help no matter what the situation. That being said though, as a character, I just didn't feel like he cared about anything. Sure, ashley has her viewpoints on religion, aliens, honor, and whether you agree with her or not, I liked the fact that she actually cared about something. Nothing got kaiden going. Migranes and almost crippling pain because of your L2 implants? "I've dealt with that". Abuse and harsh treatment at your biotic training camp, and losing out on a girl you really liked? "That's the past shepard, I'm fine." I mean geez man!!!!! When it came time to choose, it sucked losing him, but with ash being so much more interesting, I chose to save her.

[yonot]

I saved him because he was with the salarians and I wanted to save as much people as possible.

[DashingSplash]

Ashley had to die.
She killed Wrex in my first playthrough, ever since I've had her die.

EDIT: And she was such an annoying character all from the start.

Modifié par DashingSplash, 21 mars 2012 - 09:42 .

[ramnozack]

Kaiden, because Ashley is a space Republican.

[morguen87]

Kaiden dies because he's the most boring character in Mass Effect. Ashley is annoying, but at least she's a useful party member if I want to switch it up from my standard Wrex/Garrus team. Not only is Kaiden boring, but having him in the party is a damn liability.  Biotics are bettter handled by Liara or Wrex and tech is better handled by Tali or Garrus.  Any of those 4, depending on what class you are and what your needs are, are way better options.  Plus Ashley is the best romance option, Liara is too little-kid-naivish in the first game which just makes it plain creepy.

Modifié par morguen87, 27 mars 2012 - 07:52 .

[Reikilea]

Logic. I use logic and rational thinking when I play.

Kaidan is experienced officer, has perfect record and many commendations, he never lost a man serving under him, he is third in command on Normandy after Shepard and Pressly. He is biotic (and remember they are still supposed to be rare in ME) and more over L2 biotic. He is definitely more valuable for a team than Ashley...

So, why the hell I would save someone who is just mere soldier, and whose story ends up perfectly if she dies saving alien race (and there you go family honour restored). She has to go. Every single time.
officer biotic>soldier.

And those who says he/she is boring. No, both of them is realistic portrayal of a Alliance soldiers. This is how it may really look like in Alliance. I had enought of sexi assasins, genetically engineered cheerleaeders, or psycho biotics. Normal humans for once.

[PsiFive]

Reikilea wrote...

Logic. I use logic and rational thinking when I play.

The thing is though, logical for who? One man's meat is another's poison and logical approaches can still lead in different directions. From a gameplay perspective I agree it's more logical for Ash to die as you say (especially if your Shep is a strong combat class - maybe not so much if Shep is closer in ability to Kaiden) although you don't necessarily need either of them much. A soldier Shep who picks up Wrex, Garrus and Tali on the first visit to the Citadel and then goes to recruit Liara straight away might not use Ash or Kaiden in combat after Eden Prime and could have nothing to do with either of them until they're both integral to the story on Virmire.

But story wise I don't think it's logical for Shepard, and since it's an RPG every question is always What Would Shepard Do? A lot of the time that varies and different Shepards will do different things, especially paragon vs renegade options. But the Virmire mission is a bit different. You have a ground pounder noncom soldier type and a biotic techy officer, and you need to pick one to take part in a gunfight and one to set up an improvised nuclear device. Kirrahe says he doesn't care who goes with him but realistically the logical choice is to assign the techiest one to bomb baby sitting duty, which means Ashley goes with the Salarians by default. That's the first decision and I always play it that way because even if both are equally useful to Kirrahe I just can't imagine Shepard sending someone with minimal tech skills to arm and look after a nuclear bomb, an improvised nuclear bomb cobbled together out of the drive core of an alien species' ship at that, when a far more qualified person is standing right there.

Then comes the next decision about who do you save? My slightly sarcastic answer is one that's been given here before: Kirrahe and the Salarians. As players we may know that the Salarians will always make it anyway if we destroyed the geth flyers earlier, but if we're role playing Shepard we're not supposed to know that. A paragon or paragon-ish Shepard will treat it as a numbers game, a choice between saving a bunch of Salarians and Ashley or saving Kaiden and... well, just Kaiden really. That Shep will want to save the most lives possible, which means apologies and goodbyes to Kaiden. A Shep who's anything from fairly neutral to completely renegade would just want to be damn sure the bomb is going to go off, and short of standing there personally watching the counter go down to zero has to trust the assurances that come over the radio that the bomb is now armed and will definitely go off no matter what. It then becomes a numbers game again - the person most qualified to do so has personally guaranteed that the bomb cannot be stopped so there's no reason for Neutral to Renegade Shep not to want to earn some Salarian loyalty for the future by saving Kirrahe and his men. Also good reasons to get the hell away from there. Again, this means sorry and sayonara Kaiden.

As a player I barely use either of them after Eden Prime and I don't particularly care for either of them as characters to the point I wouldn't object to a mod that sees Ashley run off to try to save Kaiden and both of them getting blown up as a result. So it all comes down to what makes the most plausible story, which to me seems to be Kaiden with bomb, Ash with Salarians, Shep saves Salarians and Ash, Kaiden dies. If I approached it as a third person shooter I'd probably keep Kaiden alive instead, but since I mostly play soldier Sheps he's still less useful to me than all the other squad members. One day I'll make a Shepard for whom Kaiden is absolutely indispensable, and maybe it'll even be one who falls hopelessly for him, but role playing the game I still think it'll still make more sense for Kaiden to die even if he'd be useful in future and his death breaks a lovestruck femshep's heart into tiny bits. Hmm, actually as a story I quite like that in an end of House Of Flying Daggers kind of way.

Modifié par PsiFive, 28 mars 2012 - 07:15 .

[Reikilea]

PsiFive wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

Logic. I use logic and rational thinking when I play.

But story wise I don't think it's logical for Shepard, and since it's an RPG every question is always What Would Shepard Do? A lot of the time that varies and different Shepards will do different things, especially paragon vs renegade options. But the Virmire mission is a bit different. You have a ground pounder noncom soldier type and a biotic techy officer, and you need to pick one to take part in a gunfight and one to set up an improvised nuclear device. Kirrahe says he doesn't care who goes with him but realistically the logical choice is to assign the techiest one to bomb baby sitting duty, which means Ashley goes with the Salarians by default. That's the first decision and I always play it that way because even if both are equally useful to Kirrahe I just can't imagine Shepard sending someone with minimal tech skills to arm and look after a nuclear bomb, an improvised nuclear bomb cobbled together out of the drive core of an alien species' ship at that, when a far more qualified person is standing right there.

Then comes the next decision about who do you save? My slightly sarcastic answer is one that's been given here before: Kirrahe and the Salarians. As players we may know that the Salarians will always make it anyway if we destroyed the geth flyers earlier, but if we're role playing Shepard we're not supposed to know that. A paragon or paragon-ish Shepard will treat it as a numbers game, a choice between saving a bunch of Salarians and Ashley or saving Kaiden and... well, just Kaiden really. That Shep will want to save the most lives possible, which means apologies and goodbyes to Kaiden. A Shep who's anything from fairly neutral to completely renegade would just want to be damn sure the bomb is going to go off, and short of standing there personally watching the counter go down to zero has to trust the assurances that come over the radio that the bomb is now armed and will definitely go off no matter what. It then becomes a numbers game again - the person most qualified to do so has personally guaranteed that the bomb cannot be stopped so there's no reason for Neutral to Renegade Shep not to want to earn some Salarian loyalty for the future by saving Kirrahe and his men. Also good reasons to get the hell away from there. Again, this means sorry and sayonara Kaiden.

And there goes the problem.
But I think your explanation is very amazing, this is how I always assign them. Now you have two choices - save Ashley and Kirrahe and let Kaidan explode with the bomb. But Saren is threatening both missions and there is a chance that both of them might go wrong. So you want to risk the fact that Saren can kill Kaidan before he manages to calibrate the bomb and leave him there alone to deflect Saren geth army,  while you go off to save team of salarian aided by experienced soldier. My logic - bomb is more important and there is a chance it may never explode because Saren can kill Kaidan before he manages to do so. So Shepard goes back to make sure the bomb is ready...

This is what I love about Mass Effect, you never know what are your consequences. Save Ashley and salarian group but risk the fact that geth may be able to kill Kaidan and deactivate the bomb, or save Kaidan and make sure bomb explodes, but loose Ashley and risk losing Salarias instead. Both groups knew this is the suicide mission.

So you say you go for Ashley all the time, this is why I always save Kaidan (no romance implications and stuff like that).

And here are the consequence – you sacrificed Ashley but Whoa what’s this salarians and Kirrahe survived and made her a Hero – someone who gave up life to ensure Kirrahe group survives. In my mind that’s perfect heroic death for someone with rather xenophobic background as Ashley had.

As to the Ashley and Kaidan part in the story. Actually, in the first game I completely forgot I had Tali. Never used her. I always dragged Wrex, Garrus and Kaidan around, because this combination of powers fitted very well with my soldier and vanguard. If Mass Effect wasn’t the game, I think Shepard would use Kaidan and Ashley all the time. Reason - Alliance soldier are trained to work as a team – so Shepard as Alliance marine and squad leader is used to this type of combat. So here you can choose from kid quarian with practically no experience in combat, bookish asari archaeologist with same amount combat experience as quarian, or combat skilled but I have problems with authority type of a krogan.

So maybe Shepard would rather work with someone who had same training as he/she had. And Garrus, who I think is perfect asset for the team with his C-SEC background.  
No, but players don’t use them because they are boring humans…
But choices are yours...

And Zhang Yimou stopped making good films after he made Hero. As there is the main hero of the story – someone who gave up his life for greater good. And not by killing the emperor, but by giving him a chance to live. I always thought that was what Ashley did - something above the lines – You get off here, I will hold them off.  
This is the time when choices in Mass effect used to be amazing.

[PsiFive]

Reikilea wrote...

So you want to risk the fact that Saren can kill Kaidan before he manages to calibrate the bomb and leave him there alone to deflect Saren geth army,  while you go off to save team of salarian aided by experienced soldier. My logic - bomb is more important and there is a chance it may never explode because Saren can kill Kaidan before he manages to do so. So Shepard goes back to make sure the bomb is ready... 

Nope, I don't want to risk that and I don't agree that my Shep does risk that. I agree that other considerations are secondary to ensuring the bomb goes off and that this is a logical course of action, but this is actually repeating something that has probably already been accomplished. Remember that the decision is prompted when Kaiden calls over the radio that he's under attack and that he's arming the bomb right now to make certain it goes off. There is a strong implication right there that his actions have already guaranteed the detonation. If so then Shepards's return is superfluous.

Alternatively if we believe that the geth could somehow stop the bomb from detonating at the last minute, which for my (usually) soldier Sheps would mean second guessing a junior officer even though he'd know better than Shapard, then what does saving Kaiden do? It takes away the person who's sat next to the thing and preventing the geth from getting near it. How would Shepard know that there isn't another one waiting right round the corner for you to pack Kaiden into the Normandy shuttle bay and hotfoot it to high orbit so it can run in James Bond style at the last minute and stop the clock with single digit seconds left before chatting up and sleeping with half the kitchen appliances (hey, it's a geth James Bond, okay). So if we're worried that the detonation might not be as irrevocable as Kaiden's message implies then someone has to stay with the bomb anyway, and they have to watch that clock count all the way down to zero. The person best qualified to do so is, once again, Kaiden, and not least because he's already right there. Unless she's planning to sit there and die with him (actually I think there should have been an option along these lines - I bet Wrex would have been up for it) Shepard's return is again likely to achieve less than going to save the Salarians. Or so it would seem to Shep - we all know better, of course.

Reikilea wrote...

...no romance implications and stuff like that).

Likewise. My wife says Kaiden looks okay but has the sex appeal of a lawn mower and Ashley just annoys me, which is why I'd be happy to blow them both up. And then find a way of time travelling so I can send Miranda back to Virmire and blow her up as well, even if she is the only Australian in the game.

Reikilea wrote...

And here are the consequence – you sacrificed Ashley but Whoa what’s this salarians and Kirrahe survived and made her a Hero – someone who gave up life to ensure Kirrahe group survives. In my mind that’s perfect heroic death for someone with rather xenophobic background as Ashley had.

Yeah, nice and poetic, albeit depriving her of the opportunity to come to a different conclusion rather than die because she was sent to. I do understand where you're coming from though, and it's a good way to kill Ash. Also stops her coming back on Horizon and whining "Cerberus" at you, though since Kaiden just takes over that...

Reikilea wrote...

I think Shepard would use Kaidan and Ashley all the time. Reason - Alliance soldier are trained to work as a team – so Shepard as Alliance marine and squad leader is used to this type of combat. So here you can choose from kid quarian with practically no experience in combat, bookish asari archaeologist with same amount combat experience as quarian, or combat skilled but I have problems with authority type of a krogan.

That's a very good point, and you've got me thinking that I've broken away from the role play aspect a bit by not using them.

Three points in my defence. First, the only two Alliance personnel you have access to are a Sentinel and a Soldier, and they're not necessarily all that complimentary with Shepard. A balanced squad makes sense when you don't know what's coming and if you usually play a Soldier then a Sentinel and another Soldier really isn't all that balanced. Ideally they'd have been changeable or the game would alter their classes to better suit the one you choose for Shepard at the start of the game. Better yet, there'd be the option to take other Normandy crew apart from Corporal Cannon Fodder at the start of Eden Prime. But ME is what it is and the option isn't there.

Second defence, Shepard recruits the non-humans for a reason, because good help is where you find it and they've each got certain talents. Yeah, in real life we'd look at resumes and stuff, but in game I can live with my Sheps going "Wow, a biotic Krogan built like the side of brick s***house and a trained investigator and weapons/tech expert with a military background. And you're both absolutely up for killing the guy I'm after? Guys, get packed. You're in!" In fact we all have to live with that - it's just one area where suspension of disbelief is required and reality ignored, and for me it's nowhere near the most difficult one to do that.

Finally, it's not that Kaiden and Ashley boring humans (though they are boring people ;-) ), and in ME2 Jack, Kasumi and Zaeed are among my favourite squadmates. It's just that Ashley is a duplication for soldier Sheps and I like hacking geth and flinging singularities around, neither of which Kaiden can do.

Not seen Hero. If you rate it above Flying Daggers it's going on my Amazon wish list, even if the people who are likely to buy it for me don't get my love for Asian stories with tragic endings. Tangent: note to the people who wrote ME3 - if you're doing a rewrite and want a sad ending go read some Chinese literature first. Outlaws of the Mass Effect Marsh in Space would have been ****ing awesome, and they'd still almost all end up dead.

Modifié par PsiFive, 28 mars 2012 - 06:01 .

[Reikilea]

PsiFive wrote...

Reikilea wrote...

So you want to risk the fact that Saren can kill Kaidan before he manages to calibrate the bomb and leave him there alone to deflect Saren geth army,  while you go off to save team of salarian aided by experienced soldier. My logic - bomb is more important and there is a chance it may never explode because Saren can kill Kaidan before he manages to do so. So Shepard goes back to make sure the bomb is ready... 

Nope, I don't want to risk that and I don't agree that my Shep does risk that. I agree that other considerations are secondary to ensuring the bomb goes off and that this is a logical course of action, but this is actually repeating something that has probably already been accomplished. Remember that the decision is prompted when Kaiden calls over the radio that he's under attack and that he's arming the bomb right now to make certain it goes off. There is a strong implication right there that his actions have already guaranteed the detonation. If so then Shepards's return is superfluous.

Alternatively if we believe that the geth could somehow stop the bomb from detonating at the last minute, which for my (usually) soldier Sheps would mean second guessing a junior officer even though he'd know better than Shapard, then what does saving Kaiden do? It takes away the person who's sat next to the thing and preventing the geth from getting near it. How would Shepard know that there isn't another one waiting right round the corner for you to pack Kaiden into the Normandy shuttle bay and hotfoot it to high orbit so it can run in James Bond style at the last minute and stop the clock with single digit seconds left before chatting up and sleeping with half the kitchen appliances (hey, it's a geth James Bond, okay). So if we're worried that the detonation might not be as irrevocable as Kaiden's message implies then someone has to stay with the bomb anyway, and they have to watch that clock count all the way down to zero. The person best qualified to do so is, once again, Kaiden, and not least because he's already right there. Unless she's planning to sit there and die with him (actually I think there should have been an option along these lines - I bet Wrex would have been up for it) Shepard's return is again likely to achieve less than going to save the Salarians. Or so it would seem to Shep - we all know better, of course.

Yeah, thats a great point. But still Geth are synthetics, wiht high AI, and their hacking skills are above everything. Dont want to say Kaidan is not experienced, he is sentinel and all that, but there is always a chance Geth can deactivate the bomb.

The point he can explode with the bomb and end up his life in a heroic way, but still he need to wait till Shepard gets back to Normandy and leaves the planet. Anything can happen in those few minutes Shepard will spend saving Ashley. And even if Shepard saves him - so make sure bomb is fine, then proceed to clear the place, check if they are any geths nearby, get of there as fast as possible (and Normandy can sure do it - aka Therum incident) and boom. Kirrahe and salarians are safe and sound and you didnt have to waste an experienced officer.
You know I would quite want to see consequences of a wrong choice - for example you choose to save Ashley, bomb is deactivated and Kaidan dead and you need to bomb whole facility from the orbit. Something you could do with both of them alive. Or save Kaidan and get a bunch of angry salarian diplomats shouting at you. Hm, nothing new in there... 

This is practically point of no return, both of them have good reason to die and to be saved. And again I would rather save the officer. 

And Horizon reaction is quite easy to understand. There is someone you admired/loved and thought was dead and suddenly he is alive and kicking and working with terrorists. That would make me angry too. Kaidan and Ashley are still Alliance, they shoudnt trust their enemies. And lets say it, all Shepard wants to do is go back to Alliance (even the renegade one is quite happpy to be back there).

Not seen Hero. If you rate it above Flying Daggers it's going on my Amazon wish list, even if the people who are likely to buy it for me don't get my love for Asian stories with tragic endings. Tangent: note to the people who wrote ME3 - if you're doing a rewrite and want a sad ending go read some Chinese literature first. Outlaws of the Mass Effect Marsh in Space would have been ****ing awesome, and they'd still almost all end up dead.

 
In that case I am sorry that I spoiled it, but its still amazing film. Nearly flawless ( and I dont say it often) 
In my opinion everyone, especially USA cinema should learn from asian cinema. (except, they already stole quite a lot from them).

And of course you would use aliens, because they are amazing alien squadmates - exotic and bla bla, and it doesnt matter how it would work in real life, because in game they are revived everytime they die and listen to every press of your controller. And thats why we love games. But I am always glad when someone manages to get some real life (reality inspired characters) into gaming, because frankly I am somethimes really bored by all those big boob females and macho guys. So I like those two. They are at least not exaggerated like Jack, MIranda and Samara was.  

[PsiFive]

No worries, you haven't spoiled a thing. If I'm enjoying it I can easily sink right into a good movie and almost forget that I know how the story goes.

[JorieSilver]

I will say that the first time,I saved Ash, because I liked her and because I felt like my Shepard would have gone out of her way to make sure people didn't think she was making decisions on who lived and who died based on who she happened to be having a casual, against-regs flirtation with at the time. I wanted her to be super sad about it. She wasn't. I reloaded and let Ash die so Shepard could have her boyfriend back.

At the time, I felt kinda guilty about it, especially since the ME1 romances were pretty underwhelming. I mean, I felt like it was just "we're probably about to die--want to have some sexy-times before we bite the dust?" (Then Kaidan shows up on Horizon talking about how he loved Shepard and couldn't get over her. This was news to me, but I digress.)

Every other time I played the game, though, I saved Ashley (which was really only two times. Once for a Liara romance, and once so I could have an ME1 save with no romances). I'm not going to lie and say I saved them based on logic or reason or what have you. It's based on which character I'd rather have still floating around the Normandy. (Which is rather sad, because the two of them were my favorite crew members).

That being said, my favorite Shepard (and the one that I just finished ME3 with) is the one where Ash died, partially because as bland as the ME1 Kaidan romance was, I found I really appreciated the realism with which they treated it in ME2, with the whole Horizon/letter thing. I think he reacted in a refreshingly appropriate, and dare I say, normal way. I'm aware that Ashley's reaction is pretty similar, but as a straight woman who likes to play a straight femshep, saving Kaidan ends up being a lot more satisfying in the end. In short, sorry Ashley, two out of three ain't bad, but you still die in my head-cannon play through.