1339 réponses à ce sujet

[Spitfire_mcguire]

@ JohnRLynch: I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder when it
comes to Ashley Williams. Like many other ME fans, I have become emotionally
attached to this fictional character (though it might be a different choice for
different players), so I do tend to get a bit "emotional" when I see
someone try to drag her character through the mud. (It doesn't help that she
has many qualities that I look for in a women...Damn you Bioware!!) I have been
defending her ever since I first saw someone call her a "racist ****."

It is very annoying every time I see this happen, and also
unsettling. She gets a lot of hate from the fanbase, mostly because of this,
(which is rather unfortunate because she is one of the most deep and realistic
characters written for a video game) and most of this hatred is rather
irrational once you come to understand who she is. If you call her a
"racist," than you simply don't understand her, her opinions or her
motivations....and the thing is, the hater doesn't care that he/she is wrong.
Haters will hate. Again, it is irrational.  It shows me a lot about humanity in general.

JohnRLynch wrote...



It's great that happened in your playthrough for Mass Effect
1. It didn't for me. This is the beauty of the game. People's perceptions will
be informed on what they experience in the game which is based on their
actions.



In the game I played, Ashley never seemed to come around to thinking the aliens
were alright people. She continued to spout the same stuff at the end that she
had at the beginning. Therefore my assertion is correct for the version of the
game that I played.

Ask any Ashley fan and they will tell you that their Shepard
influenced Ash's perception of alien races. If you play as Paragon you can do
this, if full Renegade then the option isn’t there ...It is really simple.
Therefore, I don't understand how you can say that she doesn't have any
character development, when there is many who would disagree, despite you
instance about role playing and your[/b]
game. If so, every game would be entirely different. You say Ash “was a racist to begin with and one to end”...then it is reasonable
to say it’s your fault that has happened since you didn’t even try to change
her attitude. Don’t blame her for it, which seemed like you were and are doing.


Another beauty of Mass Effect is that you can do multiple
play throughs where you can gain different perspectives if you so wish... even if
you don't like her, give her a chance.

JohnRLynch wrote...

See she didn't in my game. Because my Shepard said
"Naah, I believe in god too..." cause he was trying to get into her
pants. Had he been honest he could have helped Ashley become a moer open
person, but he didn't so she didn't.

This video will show you the second time that GOD is
mentioned, and is used to influence her attitudes on aliens:

www.youtube.com/watch


Its 15 minutes of your life though...07:25 onward is what is important, and where you can break down her prejudices. 

JohnRLynch wrote...

If you aren't splitting hairs there, then I honestly do
not know what you're talking about. I'm new to the game, I've only just
completed it for the first time. So if you could link to a time when you've
gone over this before, I will become enlightened.

If you really want to know more about why ash is not a
racist, just scroll through the official Ashley Williams thread. There usually
is some mention of it every few pages or so. (BTW, xenophobes are a real
thing...the ancient Spartans for example had this characteristic)

JohnRLynch wrote...

In my game she may have said something else about how she's
always discriminated against for being religious and then the conversation
moves on to something else. So the only time she mentioned it, she came across
as having a chip on her shoulder.

Again, it is natural for someone to have a chip on their
shoulder if they are always looked down upon for a belief. Is that a bad thing?
It’s unfortunate but no, it simply adds to her character.

I respectfully disagree based on the points I
mentioned above.

Therefore, I disagree.

[Turian Thomas]

I'm male shep but I usually save kaidan. I just didn't like Ash, she was kinda a loud mouth and anti-alien. I liked Kaidan since the start because he was part of my original squad, was the only character I didn't have to recruit and he had a prior relationship with Anderson and Joker and everyone. I also agreed with his paragon attitude. It's also fun (don't judge) to have matching armor with him.

[CaptFrost]

My first playthroughs, I saved Ashley because she was a girl and I had a relationship with her. Pretty simple, but then when I was playing ME obsessively in 2007 I was a much simpler person even though it's only been a few years.

My latest playthrough a couple months ago I decided to roleplay Shepard as myself and make decisions as I'd make them even if I knew it'd have a bad outcome from having played before. Made for a very interesting experience... when Virmire came along, I sent Ashley with the Salarians because obviously she's better qualified for that as a straight-up soldier. Kaiden I took with me since he's great with tech and I needed him to arm the bomb.

When it came time to choose between the two... my rationale was, what is the effect on the mission? Saving Ashley on the AA tower serves no purpose. Meanwhile, Kaiden is with the bomb, and there's no guarantee the bomb won't get taken offline and the mission will fail utterly if I don't go back.

Same sort of rationale behind my decision at the end to hold the fleet back ("Concentrate on Sovereign"). We don't know if the entire fleet is even going to be enough to take down Sovereign, but we're going to sacrifice who knows how many ships and lives just to save a bunch of politicians on the Destiny Ascension? The races can select new Councilors; they can't get a second chance if we lose too much combat strength and the Reapers invade because we couldn't stop Sovereign.

So, there you have it. The mission took priority, the galaxy had to be saved... and unfortunately that meant Ashley and the Council weren't saved.

[PsiFive]

CaptFrost wrote...

When it came time to choose between the two... my rationale was, what is the effect on the mission? Saving Ashley on the AA tower serves no purpose. Meanwhile, Kaiden is with the bomb, and there's no guarantee the bomb won't get taken offline and the mission will fail utterly if I don't go back.

I also go on the effect on the mission but I reach the opposite consclusion. If it's true that the bomb could be disarmed then it's still true *after* you save the person with it, leaving the bomb unguarded until it goes off, unless you can be certain you've killed every single last Geth, Krogan and semi-indoctrinated Asari scientist in the complex (and if you could then why'd you need a nuke anyway?  ). Bottom line, if disarming is a significant possibility then someone needs to stay with the bomb until it goes boom and that might as well be whoever is with it already, leaving you to rescue the Salarians and whoever's with them and raise a glass to your late and laminated comrade later on.

On the other hand what if disarming the bomb is not likely? From Shep's point of view this is the actual situation since s/he is told (can't remember the exact words used) that once armed the bomb is practically certain to go off, and furthermore whoever is bombysitting it explicitly tells you that he has armed the thing. This implies that disarming it is impossible or close to impossible and means that Shepard is already as certain as s/he ever can be that it will go off, making the choice between returning to save the one life of the bombysitter (two if you count the unnamed crew guy with them and if they're not already dead) versus going on and saving multiple lives of surviving Salarians and whoever was with them. We know the Salarians' survival is actually not dependent on whether you run off to save them and that the only real decision being made here is which squadmate gets killed, but Shepard wouldn't know that and would be thinking what's best for the most. Either the bomb can be made safe and needs minding till 0:00 or it can't and doesn't, so either way going back to the bomb really isn't likely to change things and the best for the most is to rescue the Salarians.

For me the real choice is made earlier when you decide who to send with the bomb and who to send with Capt Kirrahe, though again it makes more sense to me to send the technically skilled one with the bomb and the shooter with the Salarians. And yes, this does bias things towards Kaiden getting blown up in my playthroughs, though as it happens I'm about to kill Ashley instead just for a change. I've even blown up Kaiden when he was a femshep's LI, which solved the problems with the regulations about crew relationships in a very permanent way.

Edited to add that I'd have been okay with them both getting killed. God knows I've shot them both often enough just for not going where I bloody tell them and damn well staying there, and they don't even have the redeeming feature of being as interesting as the alien teammates. Wish there was the option to send Ash to rescue Kaiden at the bomb site and then have Shep go get the Salarians and all wave goodbye from orbit.

Modifié par PsiFive, 02 mai 2012 - 06:19 .

[Bat32391]

I flipped a coin

[ZombieVision]

Ashley was racist to aliens that are helping you......she is a dumb ****

[Spitfire_mcguire]

ZombieVision wrote...

Ashley was racist to aliens that are helping you......she is a dumb ****

Except she isn't a racist. And if you took the time to understand her, you would now this to be the truth...so who is really dumb?

[PsiFive]

Spitfire_mcguire wrote...

ZombieVision wrote...

Ashley was racist to aliens that are helping you......she is a dumb ****

Except she isn't a racist. And if you took the time to understand her, you would now this to be the truth...so who is really dumb?

True. She shows this if she's with you when you talk to the Terra Firma on your last visit to the Citadel. Either her views weren't as simple as they first appeared or she's learned from being around aliens. If I was Shepard I'd say she's still not top of the list of people on the Normandy to hang out with (actually she's behind the guy selling weapons and all the people you can't even talk to) but Ashley=racist is an oversimplification.

[DJRackham]

PsiFive wrote...

Spitfire_mcguire wrote...

ZombieVision wrote...

Ashley was racist to aliens that are helping you......she is a dumb ****

Except she isn't a racist. And if you took the time to understand her, you would now this to be the truth...so who is really dumb?

True. She shows this if she's with you when you talk to the Terra Firma on your last visit to the Citadel. Either her views weren't as simple as they first appeared or she's learned from being around aliens. If I was Shepard I'd say she's still not top of the list of people on the Normandy to hang out with (actually she's behind the guy selling weapons and all the people you can't even talk to) but Ashley=racist is an oversimplification.

I honestly think that the rabid Ashley haters are actually seeing some part of their own personalities reflected back at them through Ash. They are really lashing out at themselves in a round about way.

[Temprathe]

I saved Kaiden my first time through because I wanted a storyline relating to my Shepard (he was her initial LI).

Then I saw what a jerk he was in ME2 and replayed ME to save Ashley. Besides, from what I can tell most people don't like her because she's racist. But quite frankly, I think it's an interesting part of her character given the diversity of the ME universe. And you get to question her on it. Similar to how you (ME2 Spoilers?) question Mordin's actions concerning the genophage. When it comes down to it, Ashley and Mordin have a lot in common. She just takes things more personally than he does.

[vixvicco]

Saved Kaiden for romance option, but I preferred Ash as a friend. If I played again, I would save Ashley. But I guess my true choice is Kaiden.

[PsiFive]

 It's spelled "Doomed" in most of my playthroughs.

[Sir-diealot]

Kaiden was more pertinent to the mission. No other reason. I must say I did not care for her killing Wrex though.

[jeweledleah]

Atomic pepper wrote...

Why so many people call him 'KaidEn', even if his name is spelled 'KaidAn' in game? :3


(Same as Shepard being called 'Shepherd')

unfortunately, even developers themselves cannot decide which spelling is correct one.  sometimes subtitles spell Kaiden.  sometimes Kaidan.  in some official media he's Kaiden.  in other - Kaidan. if you look through files, his name can go either way.

no point really in trying to correct it, at this point.

edited to add... about saving salarians vs saving people at the bomb.  Shepard DOES know that most of the salarians are NOT at the AA gun.  IF Shepard pays attention to the whole 3 team split, with Kirrahe and Rentola leading 2, while Ashley/Kaidan lead the last team.  THAT is the team that you go to save, NOT all the salarians.  without metagaming knowledge.  so the choice is between mareen tetachment with a bomb person, or one of the salarian teams (out of 3) with the AA gun person.  there is no "I'll be saving more people at the AA gun"

and there's a good reason for going to either location as well as a good reason for sending either person with the salarians, as both are officers with leadership experience, and there are other tech people on the ship. like, you know - engineering crew.

just saying

Modifié par jeweledleah, 15 mai 2012 - 12:42 .

[paramedico]

I saved Ashley, I thought Kaiden was weak and that Ashley was just better. It's stupid but I thought that because Ashley has the full bar on combat and Kaiden is just half. on top of that Kaiden seemed to always die and I didn't spec any of his biotics so never seemed to do anything.

[burningXphenix]

Saved Kaien. The legend of Carth Onasi must live

[stiglaw]

She ninja-manced me and this is the only way out...

[Arkwright99]

My first ME1 playthrough I saved Ashley; I forget the precise reason(s) why but I think I got confused on all the occasions when you're asked to pick one or the other, not realising that it doesn't matter who goes with the nuke and who goes with the Salarians (Kaidan always goes with the nuke for plot reasons). For my redux (post-ME3) ME1 playthrough (I wanted to correct a few things I'd missed/got 'wrong' first time) I initially intended to save Ashley again (to mimic PT #1) but actually ended up saving Kaidan instead. Partly this was because playing a Soldier FemShep, Ashley is a kind of redundant squadie (I've got Wrex if I need some heavy lifting doing), partly because I was trying for the Kaidan/Liara LI triangle (I failed), partly because I was going for the Kaidan Squadie Achievement (so needed him alive post-Virmire to get that) but mostly because I gradually came to the realization that Ash's story really angles towards her making the ultimate sacrifice thereby redeeming the Williams name. I'm surprised I didn't notice this first time around. My only niggle with this is if you send her with Kirrahe her death doesn't have the gravitas that Kaidan's does because you don't see her die on-screen (ISTR with Kaidan you see him defending the nuke, taking pot-shots at the Geth at the end before the bomb goes off). The inference (I assume) is that Ashley dies in combat (alongside her STG team?) but really she could just as easily die when the bomb explodes. I'd have liked to have seen a cut-scene of Ash under fire, maybe glancing upwards as the Normandy takes off and knowing then that she's going to die, and then going out in a blaze of glory to emphasise her fate rather than just cutting to an empty chair in the comm room, which seemed rather anti-climatic.

[huyre]

CaptFrost wrote...
My latest playthrough a couple months ago I decided to roleplay Shepard as myself and make decisions as I'd make them even if I knew it'd have a bad outcome from having played before. Made for a very interesting experience... when Virmire came along, I sent Ashley with the Salarians because obviously she's better qualified for that as a straight-up soldier. Kaiden I took with me since he's great with tech and I needed him to arm the bomb.

When it came time to choose between the two... my rationale was, what is the effect on the mission? Saving Ashley on the AA tower serves no purpose. Meanwhile, Kaiden is with the bomb, and there's no guarantee the bomb won't get taken offline and the mission will fail utterly if I don't go back.

I played as "myself" the first time around. I had the exact same reasoning and did the same. Even with the Council..until I found out that more people died by telling them to concentrate on Sovereign than there would if I sacrificed Alliance ships to save the Council.

Besides that, I also saved Kaidan for other reasons.

My first squadmate who has been there from the start. And unlike Ashley, he actually disagreed with Wrex getting shot, despite probably never hanging out with him (Ashely probably knew more about Wrex, both pretty much living in the cargo bay).

I don't tend to use the soldier class as support. Any class can deal out damage and I just find it in general more
useful to use mixed classes and Tali, if I want to have all tech skills in one. And he proved to be useful when
bugs stopped my team from using the weapons they trained in.

I also dislike the consequences in later games, if Kaidan dies.
He just doesn't get the glory Ashley gets when she dies. Ashley gets honored, medals and her family name is probably in the clear. Kaidan gets very little credit.

Now for something cruel..if Ashley dies, at least her mother still has daughters left and a whole family of support.
Kaidan is most likely (correct me if I'm wrong) a only child. His parents lose their only child.


*Minor spoiler of sorts for ME3*

..

..

And I feel bad for Kaidan's mother if she'd end up all alone. Ashley's family is not deciminated that drastically. It just makes me feel sorry for his family and want to save him.

Modifié par huyre, 11 juin 2012 - 07:12 .

[nstgc]

Pacifien wrote...

Kaiden always seemed a whiny ****, and I hated that little cut scene when you go over to talk to him.

QFT

[AvagerShepard]

Cuz i Wanted to bang Ashley.

[Fauxnormal]

Depends on my Shep and his/her motivations.

[Fauxnormal]

BewareTheDrow wrote...

Ashley was pretty much doomed to die the second she started spouting poetry at me. I'm inclined to agree with a previous poster that the "religious" side of her wasn't particularly appealing either. I don't care for religion in life or otherwise, and I don't feel that Ashley being a religious character brought much to make her any less annoying either.

My faith in humanity, it just cried out in pain.