1339 réponses à ce sujet

[Beregond5]

From what I gather, the 'whiny' comment was mostly due to his Paragon attitude (similar to Carth Onasi), the general dislike over Raphael Sbarge's voice (which is his natural voice and imho, masculine and sexy). He wasn't afraid to voice his disapproval whenever Shepard step over the line. In a game where you're allowed to do good and bad things, gamers want the fantasy to do bad things without overthinking the consequences, they don't need a seemingly beta-character to question your badass alpha's actions. But I've played as mixed morality character and he's surprisingly okay with a lot of Renegade kills that I considered too coldhearted like killing Rana Thanoptis. Then again, this is the guy who seduced his boss when he know fully well of the risk of being court-martialed. 

 

What he's really good at was hiding his Renegade side. Many responded badly to his ME2's reaction on Horizon because they expected Paragon Kaidan to see them and say nice things because Shepard is always right and he shouldn't question them (^deja vu) and they didn't expect a very angry Commander Alenko. He contrasted with Ashley who is perceived as a Renegade and despite sharing almost exact same lines (Ashley's and Kaidan's), it didn't seem out of character for her but to most, it is with Kaidan. Then the cheating and Cerberus issues in ME3. Players felt like they're betrayed by Kaidan because they can't handle this side of him and all of these complicated feelings and character issues rounded up to "Kaidan being whiny and I hate him" type of responses. Its more impressive that Sbarge could elicit extreme reactions after a few minutes cameo in a lengthy game.

Ultimately, the best part of Kaidan in ME3 was watching him trying to fix his relationship with a heartbroken Shepard. Then again, like all LIs, all romance adds depth to these characters.

 

Ah, I see. I guess that must be the reason why he never rubbed me the wrong way. I always roleplay Shepard, regardless of gender, as Paragon. Though I can see the appeal of a Renegade Shep, it's not really for me (some of the decisions, especially in ME3, are so brutal that I personally can't really stomach them). And then there's the fact that Shepard is promoted as an icon, a representation of humanity's finest qualities, which, politically speaking, means better chances for humanity to get a Council seat. For me, Kaidan is someone who has a grasp of politics (it's actually pointed out if you play as F!Shepard) and so, in a way, he realises what's at stake and thus he looks out for Shepard (whether as a friend or a lover) so that this rare chance doesn't get botched. 

 

That brings us to ME2. Whether you played as Paragon or Renegade, you did fight Cerberus in the previous game. If you look at it from his POV, here's someone that he cared about, whom he helped fight Cerberus in the previous game, only to now see them working for them. That becomes more evident if, as a Paragon, Shepard believed in peaceful co-existence between aliens and humans, and now they're working with a terrorist group that believes that humanity should come first. That's such a sharp contrast that it can easily overwhelm anybody - and I'm not adding the fact that Shepard had been considered dead for 2 years in the equation. The Shepard that Kaidan encounters in Horizon isn't the Shepard that he remembered and mourned. Personally, I can't blame him for reacting how he did, and that's why I don't mind having Shepard reassure him through their actions that they didn't change as much as he fears.

 

And like you said, trying to work things out in 3 adds a lot more depth.

[fraggle]

The Shepard that Kaidan encounters in Horizon isn't the Shepard that he remembered and mourned. Personally, I can't blame him for reacting how he did, and that's why I don't mind having Shepard reassure him through their actions that they didn't change as much as he fears.

 

And like you said, trying to work things out in 3 adds a lot more depth.

 

Couldn't agree more

[aoibhealfae]

While officially Shepard was declared dead, Shepard's body were never found. It seems that TIM used Shepard as Cerberus' poster child and spread rumors around that Shepard wasn't dead and working for Cerberus. Only few people knew that Shepard was really dead but being revived by Cerberus (Hackett, Anderson, Liara and Wrex since he still has his Shadow Broker connections) and since VS was stonewalled by Anderson, it was unlikely that they know the truth. Through the course of few years, VS developed some massive distrust against Cerberus and they're not wrong. TIM used him/her as a lure for the Collectors to attack Horizon. Thousands of people were taken including children and all of this was choreographed by TIM to make Shepard believe in the cause to save humanity from the Collectors. (He also lured Shepard to a Collector's trap and again and then the suicide mission.. so really.. I really don't understand Pro-Cerberus Shepard at all since no matter what you do, TIM really want you dead from the start)

 

For me, VS have a right to vent... but the intensity of all that venting depended on whether you're romanced. If unromanced, both of them sounded really bland and 'professional'. That contrasted with the way ME3 treats Shepard's relationship with VS (where they became friends rather than colleagues). Ashley suffered through the lost of her Eden Prime's squad and then the deaths of her senior officers sort of piled on her, she became hardened as a character but if romanced, she became emotionally fragile. With Kaidan romanced, he's not just angry, he lashed out in a way that he was intentionally being cruel to his Shepard. For both of them, Shepard's joining Cerberus was a betrayal. All their survivor's guilt and grief, quickly became anger and closer to hate. They think that Shepard string them up and made them out like a fool. Naturally, folks don't see through these... I don't blame them either since the game really do love its metaphors.

 

As for the trust issues,  VS already trust you by default if you don't lean to any pro-Cerberus decisions (like not blowing up the base, not killing the council etc) and if romanced, only if you don't sleep with anyone else. The general argument with romanced VS at Mars, isn't about trust but really about whether Shepard is still the person they loved and they need reassurance of that since they're worried that Cerberus made Shepard their thrall. We've already seen how Cerberus treats their agents and put bombs in their heads and suicide on capture and kill order on defectors etc. Even Miranda said she nearly put a control chip inside Shepard. VS's concerns are extremely legit.

[Vazgen]

Alliance didn't even make the effort to find Shepard's body. Hell, they contact Shepard after his resurrection and ask him to do it himself! 

[fraggle]

For me, VS have a right to vent... but the intensity of all that venting depended on whether you're romanced. If unromanced, both of them sounded really bland and 'professional'.

 

Tbh I found the friendship arc to be just as intense going into ME2. Kaidan angrily saying the he would've followed Shepard anywhere, that loosing Shepard was like loosing a limb, and him telling Shepard to be careful in the end always meant to me that Kaidan still cares a lot for a friendship Shepard, that his Cerberus betrayal hurt him deeply.

 

It could probably turn out either way though, depending on how you roleplay, it could be taken as professional, and it could be taken as a friend who felt betrayed. I'm hanging on Shepard's line here from ME1 "Alenko, there's no regulation that says you can't be friends with your Commander."

My MShep and Kaidan had a flourishing friendship in ME1 both times

[God]

This thread has had a distinct lack of me for a long time.

 

Anyone who knows me knows what I do and why I do it.

 

I think narratively, Kaidan works better for a large variety of reasons.

 

Ashley however is appropriate for me (opinions of mine about her aside) if you have the initial romance then fallout which leads to irreconcilable differences that ultimately culminates in a relationship where they go from lovers to enemies and ends with Ashley's death on the Citadel. It's compelling to me for different reasons: I admire the dramatic appeal of the route. I like the sheer ideological difference between either of them as well as Ashley having a pit of jealousy for my Shepard who moved onto Miranda in ME2 and stayed with her in ME3. Ashley would view Miranda as an enemy to be taken down, with her motivation fueled by jealousy as much as dislike of Cerberus and what Miranda represents (and comes to bring Shepard to represent as well).

[aoibhealfae]

Alliance didn't even make the effort to find Shepard's body. Hell, they contact Shepard after his resurrection and ask him to do it himself! 

True. I guess the writers intended to give Liara a bigger role in Shepard's recovery (DLCs isn't enough apparently.. sigh). The least that the  Alliance could do was give Liara some resources to take down the mercs and Collectors. The only link between Liara and the Alliance was Hackett giving her Shepard's damaged dog tags. Besides, it took them two years to find Normandy crash site and they made Shepard recover the remaining bodies. =_=

 

Tbh I found the friendship arc to be just as intense going into ME2. Kaidan angrily saying the he would've followed Shepard anywhere, that loosing Shepard was like loosing a limb, and him telling Shepard to be careful in the end always meant to me that Kaidan still cares a lot for a friendship Shepard, that his Cerberus betrayal hurt him deeply.

 

It could probably turn out either way though, depending on how you roleplay, it could be taken as professional, and it could be taken as a friend who felt betrayed. I'm hanging on Shepard's line here from ME1 "Alenko, there's no regulation that says you can't be friends with your Commander."

My MShep and Kaidan had a flourishing friendship in ME1 both times

ME2's VS's friendship arc really weren't as developed as in ME3. To unromanced VS, they admired and respect Shepard but they still treat Shepard as their commanding officer (even if Kaidan was already an equal to Shepard by ME2 but he treat Shepard with seniority). I would love to have them hug Shep as a default like Tali, Liara and Wrex do. Its something to do about with inclusion of a person into their personal space and the handshake scene with Shepard told a lot about the distance VS set themselves from Shepard. Shepard's death does affect both versions of VS but "losing a limb" expression does hold very different meaning than "thinking you were dead, tore me apart". VS lost two people who they trust, admired and respect. They mourn Shepard and the one they left on Virmire almost equally for two years. It was just as complex as romanced situation but in a way, VS's rejection put a dent to their existing relationship and they treat Shepard virtually as a stranger would. They should too since VS is an agent to the council or technically a Spectre-candidate. Their last final exchange was the same with both romance/unromanced VS but the conclusion of the Horizon's issue is still dependent on the final outcome.

 

Of course, this is totally dependent on individuals headcanons since one would think Kaidan developed feelings for MaleShepard around this period and interpret the friendship arc as romance arc as well.

 

 

Ashley however is appropriate for me (opinions of mine about her aside) if you have the initial romance then fallout which leads to irreconcilable differences that ultimately culminates in a relationship where they go from lovers to enemies and ends with Ashley's death on the Citadel. It's compelling to me for different reasons: I admire the dramatic appeal of the route. I like the sheer ideological difference between either of them as well as Ashley having a pit of jealousy for my Shepard who moved onto Miranda in ME2 and stayed with her in ME3. Ashley would view Miranda as an enemy to be taken down, with her motivation fueled by jealousy as much as dislike of Cerberus and what Miranda represents (and comes to bring Shepard to represent as well).

Honestly, I do like Ashley's jealousy arc with Miranda. It does make sense for Ashley to feel threatened by Miranda and maybe her reaction was a bit juvenile which is a turn off to many. She's the kind of person who prefer to shoot at her problems away and it does feel out of character if reacted with indiference. Unfortunately, I didn't get the same feeling with Kaidan vs Jacob. He was more bitter but he wasn't threatened by Jacob (except for Garrus, obviously) and its unnecessary since Jacob left Shepard in the end. Too bad that you don't get additional jealousy banters in Citadel Party.

[Elhanan]

Personally, simply preferred Ashley over Kaiden, though both are PTSD victims by ME3.

[Beregond5]

While officially Shepard was declared dead, Shepard's body were never found. It seems that TIM used Shepard as Cerberus' poster child and spread rumors around that Shepard wasn't dead and working for Cerberus. Only few people knew that Shepard was really dead but being revived by Cerberus (Hackett, Anderson, Liara and Wrex since he still has his Shadow Broker connections) and since VS was stonewalled by Anderson, it was unlikely that they know the truth. Through the course of few years, VS developed some massive distrust against Cerberus and they're not wrong. TIM used him/her as a lure for the Collectors to attack Horizon. Thousands of people were taken including children and all of this was choreographed by TIM to make Shepard believe in the cause to save humanity from the Collectors. (He also lured Shepard to a Collector's trap and again and then the suicide mission.. so really.. I really don't understand Pro-Cerberus Shepard at all since no matter what you do, TIM really want you dead from the start)

 

 

I agree, but I think there was also one more reason that TIM sent Shepard to Horizon. He didn't only want Shepard to become fully invested in Cerberus' cause, but it's heavily implied that he allowed the Alliance to find out Shepard's current location so that they'd send someone to investigate and finally confirm the rumours that TIM had also conveniently let slip - that Shepard's alive and working for Cerberus. Though I'm not sure how much of a hand TIM had in ensuring that it was the VS who would investigate but, in the end, it doesn't even matter. By having an Alliance soldier, any soldier, going back to the brass and say 'Yup, it's Shepard and with Cerberus', he's adding the last nail in the coffin, sort of speak: Shepard isn't to be trusted anymore. This becomes more evident when you approach Anderson and he says 'I can't tell you more... not when you're with Cerberus'. TIM  efficiently cut Shepard off from the only other organisation that would have listened to their warnings about the Collectors, thus keeping them for himself - essentially taking credit for any of Shepard's achievements and managing to present Cerberus as the good guys.

As for the derelict ship... I think he was telling the truth when he said that he had trusted Shepard to handle it, that he just wanted to manipulate the situation to Cerberus' favour (again) and, because TIM has trust issues of his own, he wasn't ready to share that kind of information with Shepard. Because to him, Shepard isn't a partner, they're a tool to be used in any way he sees fit. A dangerous tool, granted - hence why he indulges Shepard in some ways, in order to keep them happy and manageable enough - but a tool nonetheless. However, it's also safe to assume that, even if Shepard hadn't broken off Cerberus at the end of ME2, TIM would have shown his true colours eventually. It's also safe enough to say that he would have probably disposed of Shepard once they had outlived their usefulness. 

 

Unfortunately, I didn't get the same feeling with Kaidan vs Jacob. He was more bitter but he wasn't threatened by Jacob (except for Garrus, obviously) and its unnecessary since Jacob left Shepard in the end. Too bad that you don't get additional jealousy banters in Citadel Party.

Yeah, it probably has to do with the fact that he also rather blames himself for pushing Shepard away and into Jacob's arms. The least he can do, even if he's not happy with the situation, is to be gracious about it ('Knowing you have some taste makes it sting less'). On the other hand, Ashley, unfairly or not, expected Shepard not to give up on her even after their fight on Horizon. She certainly didn't want him to settle with Cerberus' SIC, of all people. Perhaps a part of her also blames Miranda for Shepard joining the Cerberus' cause; as in, he joined up because she batted her eyelashes at him (... or 'Dat Ass!' take your pick XD). So, yeah, one can see where she's coming from.

[themikefest]

True. I guess the writers intended to give Liara a bigger role in Shepard's recovery (DLCs isn't enough apparently.. sigh). The least they could do was give Liara some resources to take down the mercs and Collectors.

Having her give the body to Cerberus made no sense and than for 2 years becomes an information broker? Why? Did she get bored of studying the protheans? It would've been better to have Cerberus recover the body
 

The only link between Liara and the Alliance was Hackett giving her Shepard's damaged dog tails.

dog tags

I like to know why he did that? For those who play as a spacer, it comes across that Hackett believes an alien is more important than Shepard's mother. That should never of been in the dlc. Plus the story T'soni gives about how they came to be in Hacketts posession is lame at best.
 

Besides, it took them two years to find Normandy crash site and they made Shepard recover the remaining bodies. =_=

It shows how pathetic the Alliance actually is. All they needed was the final coordinates from Joker of the location of the SR1 when it was destroyed and go from there.

What's even just as bad is the ME1 characters made no effort in helping locate the crash site. They never cared just like they never cared enough to make any effort to find a way to stop the reapers

[Vazgen]

Having her give the body to Cerberus made no sense and than for 2 years becomes an information broker? Why? Did she get bored of studying the protheans? It would've been better to have Cerberus recover the body
 

It shows how pathetic the Alliance actually is. All they needed was the final coordinates from Joker of the location of the SR1 when it was destroyed and go from there.

What's even just as bad is the ME1 characters made no effort in helping locate the crash site. They never cared just like they cared enough to make any effort to find a way to stop the reapers

Agreed. There was absolutely no need to mix Liara in this.

 

More, escape pods were recovered, no? They saved those but didn't bother to search for Normandy wreckage in the vicinity?

[Beregond5]

Agreed. There was absolutely no need to mix Liara in this.

 

More, escape pods were recovered, no? They saved those but didn't bother to search for Normandy wreckage in the vicinity?

 

There was defintely no need. In fact, and I'll sound harsh here, it rather makes Liara look like she's holding a bowling-size idiot ball. She knew about Shepard, and she's a good information broker before she even becomes the Shadow Broker. So... why didn't she somehow send a message to the Alliance, explaining why Shepard is with Cerberus? There's no indication that she didn't have the connections to pull it off... 

[aoibhealfae]

Having her give the body to Cerberus made no sense and than for 2 years becomes an information broker? Why? Did she get bored of studying the protheans? It would've been better to have Cerberus recover the body
 

dog tags

I like to know why he did that? For those who play as a spacer, it comes across that Hackett believes an alien is more important than Shepard's mother. That should never of been in the dlc. Plus the story T'soni gives about how they came to be in Hacketts posession is lame at best.
 

It shows how pathetic the Alliance actually is. All they needed was the final coordinates from Joker of the location of the SR1 when it was destroyed and go from there.

What's even just as bad is the ME1 characters made no effort in helping locate the crash site. They never cared just like they never cared enough to make any effort to find a way to stop the reapers

 

sorry, mild feverish and on drugs. slept for 5 hours just now.

 

But these are some of the things that Bioware did poorly. ME2's writers became too focus around the introduction of space terrorist organization and introduction of multiple exciting characters that somehow, it failed to tell Shepard's story that includes the miraculous resurrection. While all of that works for a fun interactive action game, it does pulls you away from Shepard's own personal narrative and the larger scale of the war against the reapers. If the writers had gone ahead with the dark energy foreshadowing, it would compete with the first game's foreshadowing with the reaper invasion. ME could have gone to A Song Of Ice and Fire's route where the "winter is always coming" and reduce the reapers relevance to the background. In fact, we kill a lot of mercs than we do with Collectors, ME2 is more about Shepard's war against the mercenary groups of the terminus system.

 

Its sucks that Mac Walters became too attached to Liara. If he really intended Mass Effect Redemption to be canon to the trilogy, he could included other characters (Wrex and Garrus at least) and make it Shepard's friends quest to save Shepard from Collector instead of making it Liara's own action girl story. This is a century old character who have (unexplained) combat-grade biotic training but with no combat experience outside tagging along with Shepard in ME1...and suddenly she could take on mercenaries and make big enemies. We're even forced to pay for the DLCs to make HER story consistent. Yes, LotSB is a great DLC but wouldn't it be more awesome if it was more like Citadel DLC where you get VS and/or Wrex involved as a temporary squadmate. It would give Wrex an outlet from his work stress and VS a chance to work out some of the personal issues between them (not all, just enough to play with the trust issues plot that could carry to ME3) and these could provide a connection to Alliance's trust and subsequently a bridge to Arrival DLC. Its sad that they have to do this paid DLC-thing for Liara again in ME3 just so we could get more scenes with her and bring back her relevance as a prothean researcher, yes, we get Javik but its still Liara's DLC. Then again, her role as a Shadow Broker wasn't even a big deal in ME3 other than her role in getting the Crucible blueprint. 

Okay.. that was a bit off topic.

[VFerreira93]

sorry, mild feverish and on drugs. slept for 5 hours just now.

 

But these are some of the things that Bioware did poorly. ME2's writers became too focus around the introduction of space terrorist organization and introduction of multiple exciting characters that somehow, it failed to tell Shepard's story that includes the miraculous resurrection. While all of that works for a fun interactive action game, it does pulls you away from Shepard's own personal narrative and the larger scale of the war against the reapers. If the writers had gone ahead with the dark energy foreshadowing, it would compete with the first game's foreshadowing with the reaper invasion. ME could have gone to A Song Of Ice and Fire's route where the "winter is always coming" and reduce the reapers relevance to the background. In fact, we kill a lot of mercs than we do with Collectors, ME2 is more about Shepard's war against the mercenary groups of the terminus system.

 

Its sucks that Mac Walters that became too attached to Liara. If he really intended Mass Effect Redemption to be canon to the trilogy, he could included other characters (Wrex and Garrus at least) and make it Shepard's friends quest to save Shepard from Collector instead of making it Liara's own action girl story. This is a century old character who have combat-grade biotic training but with no combat experience outside tagging along with Shepard in ME1...and suddenly she could take on mercenaries and make big enemies. We're even forced to pay for the DLCs to make HER story consistent. Yes, LotSB is a great DLC but wouldn't it be more awesome if it was more like Citadel DLC where you get VS and/or Wrex involved as a temporary squadmate. It would give Wrex an outlet from his work stress and VS a chance to work out some of the personal issues between them (not all, just enough to play with the trust issues plot that could carry to ME3) and these could provide a connection to Alliance's trust and subsequently a bridge to Arrival DLC. Its sad that they have to do this paid DLC-thing for Liara again in ME3 just so we could get more scenes with her and bring back her relevance as a prothean researcher, yes, we get Javik but its still Liara's DLC. Then again, her role as a Shadow Broker wasn't even a big deal in ME3 other than her role in getting the Crucible blueprint. 

Okay.. that was a bit off topic.

 

We'll close our eyes. Nobody has to know

[Big Magnet]

before ME3 I saved Kaidan because he was the least annoying.

Spoiler

Now with ME3 I always save Ashley so I can put a bullet in her myself

[Mineko]

I've just finished my first complete playthrough, actually. I chose Kaidan, because I was romancing him. And I feel like I totally made the right decission; would save him every time. I never really connected so much with Ash, and I think Kaidan is highly underestimated within the fan base. I don't find him whiny or boring; he didn't have an easy life and he managed to become a powerful soldier anyway. He also evolves a lot, and on ME3 you see a much different Kaidan. Still himself, but much stronger and determined, a well established  and valued soldier.

 

Plus, his romance with female Shepard it's not easy, but it's very sweet and fun to see. They absolutely adore each other, as much as they try to fight it at times.

[Elhanan]

I've just finished my first complete playthrough, actually. I chose Kaidan, because I was romancing him. And I feel like I totally made the right decission; would save him every time. I never really connected so much with Ash, and I think Kaidan is highly underestimated within the fan base. I don't find him whiny or boring; he didn't have an easy life and he managed to become a powerful soldier anyway. He also evolves a lot, and on ME3 you see a much different Kaidan. Still himself, but much stronger and determined, a well established  and valued soldier.
 
Plus, his romance with female Shepard it's not easy, but it's very sweet and fun to see. They absolutely adore each other, as much as they try to fight it at times.

Truly? I found both of them as fairly depressing, moody, and secondary selections for missions. But Ashley is rather humorous in her affliction (eg; Cool floor. Mmmmmm!).

[aoibhealfae]

Technically, everyone on the ship was depressed but Liara was the last to succumb to this. I get the feeling that she never truly understand what everyone was feeling, which is why she distance herself from everyone else until she saw what the reapers were doing to her people.

 

Honestly, I wish Ashley was stationed in the shuttle bay working with James and Cortez and keeping herself busy with guns like her old self. She never seems the type who would like sitting inside the observation deck for days. At least, Kaidan used it as his office.

[Seyd71]

I honestly never use Kaiden.  But along the same veins as Flamewielder's post, my MaleShep is a Spacer War Hero Paragon soldier.  I always send Ash (because she's a marksman) with the STG; Kaiden goes with the bomb (because he's got tech experience).

I'm going to go save Ash, not because I never use Kaiden or don't care for him (despite what jokes I may make), but because it's Ash and the STG.  My job there on Virmire (as my Shepard saw it), was to save as many lives as possible.  Do I really like having someone die?  No.....but that's just me (and I made sure that everyone survived the
Suicide Run in ME 2).

Do I regret choosing Ash over Kaiden?  Not really, since I like Jacob more than I do Kaiden and Liara as a biotic has really come a long way since the days of ME 1.

(Edited for easier reading)

It doesn't matter who you save though, if you did all the bonus objectives the Salarians survive.

[Vazgen]

[Beregond5]

 

Hey, just because she can drill you between the eyes at 100 m, it doesn't mean she can't like sensitive stuff like poetry. Or ballet, apparently.

[aoibhealfae]

Hey, just because she can drill you between the eyes at 100 m, it doesn't mean she can't like sensitive stuff like poetry. Or ballet, apparently.

You know, she and I could be friends if she prefer Classical Epic Poetry. Homer is way better than Tennyson. 

[Vazgen]

You know, she and I could be friends if she prefer Classical Epic Poetry. Homer is way better than Tennyson. 

I doubt you'd pick her over Kaidan even if that was the case

[aoibhealfae]

I doubt you'd pick her over Kaidan even if that was the case

but it would make it a tough choice. Between a sexy biotic man and someone who could quote "Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns driven time and again off course, once he had plundered the hallowed heights of Troy." Tch... missed opportunity. 

[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

I usually go 50/50, depending on which one I happen to hate more during that particular run. Hmmm, let's see, do I murder the everloving daylights out of:

 

(a) the xenophobe and racist who presumes to tell me how to run MY ship and openly expresses her distrust towards Garrus and Wrex (they are GARRUS AND WREX HOW CAN YOU SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT EITHER OF THOSE TWO WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU HOW ARE YOU EVEN A PERSON WITH A SOUL); or

 

(b ) the whiny, unstable walking liability of a biotic (L2 fun times oh joy of joys) who is not that great at his job to begin with and spends the portion of his free time he is not whining hitting on me, somehow under the delusion that I would be into him, despite clear and repeated signals to contrary (gentlemen, about 99% of the time, "no" actually means NO. true story. tell your friends. have pizza).

 

Yes, I know, to each their own and it is just a matter of opinion, to which I say - the above is stated under the heavy, HEAVY caveat that it is my opinion and impression ONLY. I have played through the trilogy enough times (too many) to know that yes, there is indeed character development to these two, but I just don't know, I just find both of them so inherently, intensely, irresistibly insufferable I can't bring myself to care one whit for either of them. Live and let die, I say. Live and let die. Horribly. In explosions.