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[Stefanocrpg_rev91]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Stefanocrpg_rev91 wrote...

Actually, even if I love Baldur's Gate 2 and overall it's still the best BioWare game imo, I
think the banters in Origins are just great, better than Shadows of Amn,
where at the end you have not so many conversations with your party
members unless they are romanceable NPCs.

Garrus in ME2 springs to mind here with his 'calibrations' speech...

Well, the short number of banters is one of the weaknesses of ME2, in fact.
I mean, if you don't get a romance with Garrus you have like two dialogues with him on the Normandy...
Hope for the third they add a larger number of party interaction, both with the player and with the other companion, because in that particular side ME2 was a bit poor, although it was a great game in almost everything else (and better than the first ME) imo.

[upsettingshorts]

foodstuffs wrote...

I'm still waiting for my "spiritual successor"...

The creators get to define what a spiritual successor is. 

You mean "I'm still waiting for an isometric D&D-inspired PCRPG."  Right? 

[OriginsIsBest]

foodstuffs wrote...

I'm still waiting for my "spiritual successor"...

Me too, DAO was a step in the right direction...but now they have gone waaaaaaaaay off corse.

[foodstuffs]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You mean "I'm still waiting for an isometric D&D-inspired PCRPG."  Right? 

No.

EDIT:  I was going to just leave it at that, but I decided against it.  DA:O failed as a "spiritual successor" to BG, though not as a seperate game.  DA:O feels more like a combo of NWN 1 and KotoR 1, and very little like BG.  The strength of DA:O is it's tactical combat, but that hardly makes a game great.  I generally pay no attention to the hype surrounding video games, but I'm certainly going to be interested in a game that is consider the "spiritual successor" to BG.

BG has a compelling and personal story thus actually giving the player a reason to feel compelled to complete it.  DA:O did not; even if certain origins were personal, once you left for Ostagar, it all became another "save the world" campaign.  I'm tired of saving the world, and worse, I'm tired of being the chosen one (though in fairness, I never felt like I was "the chosen one" even if certain dialogs suggested it).

BG has a compelling party npc interaction, to such a degree that certain npcs would leave if they did not like certain things/people/actions, or even attack each other.  Granted, the npcs in this game could leave, though it was slightly more difficult than pulling teeth to accomplish this.  The personalities of DA:O party npcs, while mostly fun, did not compell me to feel they were "alive".

There is a reason why so many people want mods to skip so many parts of DA:O.

I could go on, but I have no desire to.  If you've played BG, then my stance should not be unreasonable, if you've not then you've no idea what I am talking about.

Where I spoke of BG, I spoke of the entirety, unless otherwise noted.

Modifié par foodstuffs, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[krasnoarmeets]

*Sighs while reminiscing pleasantly*
*Sudden screech brings me back*
Awakenings was particularly dismal in terms of character interactions. Opinions differ, obviously, but there's mine.

Perhaps foodstuffs is suggesting that the successive games lack its heart and soul?

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:35 .

[Maverick827]

I enjoyed the party banter, but I would rather have better conversation dialog. I'd like the party to chime in when I'm speaking to NPCs, not as a pithy response to something that I have said, but rather as answers to questions that they might be able to solve, or suggestions for a solution to a problem a hand.

I'd like them to interact with NPCs as much as I would, as a real group would speak amongst each other. This happened a few times in Origins, but not enough.

[upsettingshorts]

foodstuffs wrote...
No.

Then color me confused by your statement.

[foodstuffs]

I edited my previous post.

[upsettingshorts]

foodstuffs wrote...

I edited my previous post.

I've played BG, and I more or less agree with you. Especially about the semi-recycled "save the world" story in a new package. I really like it in Mass Effect because we can play with stakes well beyond our comprehension - the galaxy, all sentient life - etc. But swords and magic... saving the world... does seem kind of tired doesn't it?

I do miss more personal, but no less compelling, quests like the one in BG.

What is kind of interesting about the various origins in Origins is that any one of them could probably be the basis of a BG-like main quest, if they chose to go that way.  Like perhaps claiming your rightful place on the throne of Orzammar, winning a homeland for the Dalish, or getting personal revenge on Howe and restoring your brother as Teryn.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Saibh]

Maverick827 wrote...

I enjoyed the party banter, but I would rather have better conversation dialog. I'd like the party to chime in when I'm speaking to NPCs, not as a pithy response to something that I have said, but rather as answers to questions that they might be able to solve, or suggestions for a solution to a problem a hand.
I'd like them to interact with NPCs as much as I would, as a real group would speak amongst each other. This happened a few times in Origins, but not enough.

Actually, as I recall, you can choose to have party members interact with people you're talking to instead of yourself. I assume you can use their Cunning points or whatever to Persuade people, instead of you being the lucky idiot with the gift of gab. I'm not sure if this will reflect upon NPCs jumping into your conversations with other party members or not.

Modifié par Saibh, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[foodstuffs]

*Spoiler-ish for DA:O*

Upsettingshorts wrote...

What is kind of interesting about the various origins in Origins is that any one of them could probably be the basis of a BG-like main quest, if they chose to go that way.  Like perhaps claiming your rightful place on the throne of Orzammar, winning a homeland for the Dalish, or getting personal revenge on Howe and restoring your brother as Teryn.

Despite what I have said, I definitely have to acknowledge the emboldened.  I did indeed get vengeance on Howe, I also liked the City Elf  "vengeance/s".  While this was a rather nice touch, it did little to change my mind over all.  I've yet to finsh either Dwarven origin, though I've started them.  The mage origin fell completely flat to me and I really can't remember the ending. 

To this day, what happens to Keldorn at the end of ToB still brings emotions out. 

[foodstuffs]

Saibh wrote...

Actually, as I recall, you can choose to have party members interact with people you're talking to instead of yourself. I assume you can use their Cunning points or whatever to Persuade people, instead of you being the lucky idiot with the gift of gab. I'm not sure if this will reflect upon NPCs jumping into your conversations with other party members or not.

hmm...  It was my experience that no matter who I was controlling when trying to speak to someone, it was always the main character that wound up doing the talking.  Also, only the main character can learn coercion.  I speak only of vanilla Origins though, beyond that I don't know.

[Maverick827]

Saibh wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

I enjoyed the party banter, but I would rather have better conversation dialog. I'd like the party to chime in when I'm speaking to NPCs, not as a pithy response to something that I have said, but rather as answers to questions that they might be able to solve, or suggestions for a solution to a problem a hand.
I'd like them to interact with NPCs as much as I would, as a real group would speak amongst each other. This happened a few times in Origins, but not enough.

Actually, as I recall, you can choose to have party members interact with people you're talking to instead of yourself. I assume you can use their Cunning points or whatever to Persuade people, instead of you being the lucky idiot with the gift of gab. I'm not sure if this will reflect upon NPCs jumping into your conversations with other party members or not.

I only saw this once, and that was when Zevran convinced the male elf whose wife had been turned into a Werewolf to tell you his problems and give you his quest, and he did it on his own accord after my unconvincing mage got rejected.

And I don't even necessarily mean that their contributions have to do or unlock anything like this.  It just seems weird when you literally do all of the talking.  It's as if your companions are aware that they are merely NPCs in a game, only able to offer binary responses after you do or say something to play their little part in this approval game-within-a-game rather than friends and followers embarking together on adventurers.

[krasnoarmeets]

There's a similar scene in ME1 when interacting with Samesh Batia and attempting to convince him that the tests on his wife's body will be beneficial for future clashes with Geth. If you don't have the charm/intimidate to placate him, as I recall, if you are in the company of Chief Williams, she does it on your behalf. Once again, however, she does that of her own accord much like with Zevran. You can't borrow their skills, and, in fact, as pointed out, the companions can't even be given a coercion skill in DAO.

[Elanareon]

To me DA:O had too much humor. Maybe tone it down a little bit for DA2 to get the seriousness of the story involved.

Modifié par Elanareon, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:31 .

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Elanareon wrote...

To me DA:O had too much humor. Maybe tone it down a little bit for DA2 to get the seriousness of the story involved.

No DA:O diddnt have too much humour, it was more that most of the humour in DA:O wasnt very funny. Alistair tried way too hard to be funny and Anders was even worse.

The way the party was handled in BG2 is far better than the system in DA:O in my opinion and it would be nice to see DA2 take more inspiration from it however I doubt it will be the case.

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

Maverick827 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

I enjoyed the party banter, but I would rather have better conversation dialog. I'd like the party to chime in when I'm speaking to NPCs, not as a pithy response to something that I have said, but rather as answers to questions that they might be able to solve, or suggestions for a solution to a problem a hand.
I'd like them to interact with NPCs as much as I would, as a real group would speak amongst each other. This happened a few times in Origins, but not enough.

Actually, as I recall, you can choose to have party members interact with people you're talking to instead of yourself. I assume you can use their Cunning points or whatever to Persuade people, instead of you being the lucky idiot with the gift of gab. I'm not sure if this will reflect upon NPCs jumping into your conversations with other party members or not.

I only saw this once, and that was when Zevran convinced the male elf whose wife had been turned into a Werewolf to tell you his problems and give you his quest, and he did it on his own accord after my unconvincing mage got rejected.

And I don't even necessarily mean that their contributions have to do or unlock anything like this.  It just seems weird when you literally do all of the talking.  It's as if your companions are aware that they are merely NPCs in a game, only able to offer binary responses after you do or say something to play their little part in this approval game-within-a-game rather than friends and followers embarking together on adventurers.

There are many other such instances. One example, Leliana will help you if your DEX is not high enough to catch Isabella cheating.

[Maverick827]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

Elanareon wrote...

To me DA:O had too much humor. Maybe tone it down a little bit for DA2 to get the seriousness of the story involved.

No DA:O diddnt have too much humour, it was more that most of the humour in DA:O wasnt very funny. Alistair tried way too hard to be funny and Anders was even worse.

The way the party was handled in BG2 is far better than the system in DA:O in my opinion and it would be nice to see DA2 take more inspiration from it however I doubt it will be the case.

What killed a lot of the humor for me in Origins was poor timing, mostly due to camera cuts.  Half the time, the joke would be set up - then cut to Alistair, who says something silly - then cut back to the behind-the-shoulder perspective while everyone's head's awkwardly pan around like robots.
Hopefully in DA2 the conversation scenes are positioned  better, with companions standing more naturally and not like bowling pins behind you.

[DarthCaine]

OriginsIsBest wrote...

Ahh BG...why do they not make games like that anymore? why?

Because in those days, RPGs were like reading a book (literally, only 1% of dialogue was voiced, I felt I've gone deaf while playing the game which really killed the experience). IMO Old RPGs aren't in the least bit immersive 'cos of that.

Now, most of the budget is spent of voice acting, and RPGs are more like watching a movie (which is faaaaar better IMO)

I never finished BG 'cos the "no voice acting" part which made the game really dull. I looked past it in PS: T and Fallout 'cos they were short, but still they're not anywhere near my top 10 RPGs (I do read books in case you're wondering). PS: T had a great unique story and if it was ever remade it'd be in my top 5 RPGs. But with the barely any voice acting part and the isometric view it just isn't that good

I get the feeling most of you love it mostly 'cos of nostalgia since it was your first RPG. I really doubt anyone that played KOTOR, ME or DAO first would say BG is better

Modifié par DarthCaine, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

DarthCaine wrote...

OriginsIsBest wrote...

Ahh BG...why do they not make games like that anymore? why?

Because in those days, RPGs were like reading a book (literally, only 1% of dialogue was voiced, I felt I've gone deaf while playing the game which really killed the experience)

Now, most of the budget is spent of voice acting, and RPGs are more like watching a movie (which is faaaaar better IMO)

Not really, ser. Try Planescape: Torment and see for yourself.

[DarthCaine]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Not really, ser. Try Planescape: Torment and see for yourself.

See my edited post

Modifié par DarthCaine, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:38 .

[krasnoarmeets]

One of the things that I find irks me the most with DAO is unnatural animations - the very odd things that they do with their heads. How they jostle them around like stereotyped indians on crack, craning their necks into highly uncomfortable positions. It's just annoying.

Torment is probably the best RPG I've ever played in my life. Nothing has ever topped it for the storyline, the believability of the characters and the way in which you get attached to them.
I don't have to watch a movie to feel immersed - I've spent many years playing pen and paper roleplaying games in which the experience is 100% imagination. Perhaps thats the simple difference with me? I don't need all these flashy effects - I need a good story with believable characters.
For me BG wasn't even close to being my first RPG, Pool of Radiance on my Commodore was likely my first D&D rpg on a computer, however.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:36 .

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

DarthCaine wrote...

OriginsIsBest wrote...

Ahh BG...why do they not make games like that anymore? why?

Because in those days, RPGs were like reading a book (literally, only 1% of dialogue was voiced, I felt I've gone deaf while playing the game which really killed the experience). IMO Old RPGs aren't in the least bit immersive 'cos of that.

Now, most of the budget is spent of voice acting, and RPGs are more like watching a movie (which is faaaaar better IMO)

I never finished BG 'cos the "no voice acting" part which made the game really dull. I looked past it in PS: T and Fallout 'cos they were short, but still they're not anywhere near my top 10 RPGs (I do read books in case you're wondering). PS: T had a great unique story and if it was ever remade it'd be in my top 5 RPGs. But with the barely any voice acting part and the isometric view it just isn't that good

I get the feeling most of you love it mostly 'cos of nostalgia since it was your first RPG. I really doubt anyone that played KOTOR, ME or DAO first would say BG is better

I am going to have to disagree with you there Caine, the Baldur's Gate series would rank at the top of my favorite RPG list, far above KOTOR, ME and DAO and the reason is not nostalgia. Dispite the lack of voice acting and its hardware limitations the Baldur's Gate series drew me in far more than KOTOR, ME, and DAO ever did, a lot of this is because the game had a far better story, characters and was set in a far more interesting world but I also think that part of it was that the game left a lot more to the imagination of the player. Perhaps for the younger generation of players like yourself who lack an imagination Mass Effect is the better option however I will take BG2 over anything Bioware has created since any day. 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

One of the things that I find irks me the most with DAO is unnatural animations - the very odd things that they do with their heads. How they jostle them around like stereotyped indians on crack, craning their necks into highly uncomfortable positions. It's just annoying.

Torment is probably the best RPG I've ever played in my life. Nothing has ever topped it for the storyline, the believability of the characters and the way in which you get attached to them.
I don't have to watch a movie to feel immersed - I've spent many years playing pen and paper roleplaying games in which the experience is 100% imagination. Perhaps thats the simple difference with me? I don't need all these flashy effects - I need a good story with believable characters.
For me BG wasn't even close to being my first RPG, Pool of Radiance on my Commodore was likely my first D&D rpg on a computer, however.

QFT.

[foodstuffs]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...

I am going to have to disagree with you there Caine, the Baldur's Gate series would rank at the top of my favorite RPG list, far above KOTOR, ME and DAO and the reason is not nostalgia. Dispite the lack of voice acting and its hardware limitations the Baldur's Gate series drew me in far more than KOTOR, ME, and DAO ever did, a lot of this is because the game had a far better story, characters and was set in a far more interesting world but I also think that part of it was that the game left a lot more to the imagination of the player. Perhaps for the younger generation of players like yourself who lack an imagination Mass Effect is the better option however I will take BG2 over anything Bioware has created since any day. 

Italicized and emboldend for effect.