99 réponses à ce sujet

[Bruddajakka]

I think my biggest issue, and it's not even one really was that you couldn't start a relationship with Liara after everything she's been through, and done for Shepard. Resume one yes. But not start one especially after the way Ashley, and Kaiden end up treating you.

[PillarBiter]

IMHO, lotsb is the directiont hey should take it in. You have a lot more dialogue where you can't do anything about, BUT, when a decision needs to be made (wether that be just to push somebody or talk it out, or about blowing up a base or not, that's where the player comes in.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

The main problem with the dialog wheel to date, which the LotSB fixed to a huge degree, was the difference in responses tends to range from reasonable to psychopath. Renegade isn't specifically a no-nonsense sort of character, frequently it's just downright cruel and often the dialog option doesn't really accurately telegraph that in the first place.

[Hathur]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I didn't like it. I never treated Liara as a friend in ME1 (always insulted her and told her to deal with it), in ME2 I refused to assist her in her hunt and then suddenly my **** Shepard is arguing with Liara like an old married couple and laughing about the good old times. There was no good old times!

I sort-of liked it on my original character that was nice to everybody and found it cute but hated it on my other character. REALLY, REALLY hated it.

Since you're making the argument that from a roleplay perspective your character didn't like Liara.. then you shouldn't have purchased the DLC ... why would your character even go help Liara if he / she doesn't like her? As soon as you got the mail from Cerberus letting you know about Liara, you should have archived it and ignored it... never bothering to go see her since your Shep didn't care about her. (But then you'd be out 10 bucks hehe).

You can't use the roleplaying argument if you yourself opted to go and help her in the first place... in ME1 you could ignore Liara and even be mean... you should have simply continued to ignore Liara and not help her... why did your character even bother to go talk to her?

See what I'm getting at?

[Hathur]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

The main problem with the dialog wheel to date, which the LotSB fixed to a huge degree, was the difference in responses tends to range from reasonable to psychopath. Renegade isn't specifically a no-nonsense sort of character, frequently it's just downright cruel and often the dialog option doesn't really accurately telegraph that in the first place.

 
Agreed, this is so easily fixable too with more carefully thought out verbs / adverbs and adjectives to be placed in the dialogue wheel....

But having the wheel show "I don't think so" as the renegade choice (just a made up example) and then seeing Shep shove a man out the window is dumbfounding.. this happens a lot in ME2 and ME1... had I known that "I don't think so" (or something similarly as innocuous) meant murdering the guy, I would have chosen something else.

The wheel needs to be better at making it clear to the player what emotion or action is attached to it.... Frankly, in cases like that it should be blatant and just write: [Kill him] so it's clear and to the point.

For the paragon... there's often dialogue choices that cause Shep to flirt with a group member when the dialogue choice itself did not even remotely suggest you would be flirting... that threw me off a number of times.... what's so hard about just writing [Flirt] in the dialogue wheel? Sigh.

Modifié par Hathur, 12 septembre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Savey Anchev]

Loved it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hathur wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I didn't like it. I never treated Liara as a friend in ME1 (always insulted her and told her to deal with it), in ME2 I refused to assist her in her hunt and then suddenly my **** Shepard is arguing with Liara like an old married couple and laughing about the good old times. There was no good old times!

I sort-of liked it on my original character that was nice to everybody and found it cute but hated it on my other character. REALLY, REALLY hated it.

Since you're making the argument that from a roleplay perspective your character didn't like Liara.. then you shouldn't have purchased the DLC ... why would your character even go help Liara if he / she doesn't like her? As soon as you got the mail from Cerberus letting you know about Liara, you should have archived it and ignored it... never bothering to go see her since your Shep didn't care about her. (But then you'd be out 10 bucks hehe).

You can't use the roleplaying argument if you yourself opted to go and help her in the first place... in ME1 you could ignore Liara and even be mean... you should have simply continued to ignore Liara and not help her... why did your character even bother to go talk to her?

See what I'm getting at?

If you can't think of a reason why a Shepard who was almost sold to the Collectors by the Shadow Broker and has been targetted by said Broker would want to make an alliance of convenience to take out said Broker... then you didn't just read the last sentence.

Liara is useful, even if you don't like her. Just as Cerberus is useful, even if you don't like them.

[JamieCOTC]

Does a player HAVE to take Liara back to the Normandy?



Liara: Shepard, I need help with the Shadow Broker.

Shepard: Screw you, b*tch! I hate you! You're annoying, and I don't trust you.

Liara: If that's the way you want it, fine. I just thought you might like to help the person who brought you back from the dead. I suppose I was wrong.

Shepard: You supposed right, Pureblood!

Tali: You're such a jerk, Shepard. We're done.

Shepard: Wha? Tali? No! Liara, wait! I didn't mean it!!

[JamieCOTC]

Hathur wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

The main problem with the dialog wheel to date, which the LotSB fixed to a huge degree, was the difference in responses tends to range from reasonable to psychopath. Renegade isn't specifically a no-nonsense sort of character, frequently it's just downright cruel and often the dialog option doesn't really accurately telegraph that in the first place.

 
Agreed, this is so easily fixable too with more carefully thought out verbs / adverbs and adjectives to be placed in the dialogue wheel....

But having the wheel show "I don't think so" as the renegade choice (just a made up example) and then seeing Shep shove a man out the window is dumbfounding.. this happens a lot in ME2 and ME1... had I known that "I don't think so" (or something similarly as innocuous) meant murdering the guy, I would have chosen something else.

The wheel needs to be better at making it clear to the player what emotion or action is attached to it.... Frankly, in cases like that it should be blatant and just write: [Kill him] so it's clear and to the point.

For the paragon... there's often dialogue choices that cause Shep to flirt with a group member when the dialogue choice itself did not even remotely suggest you would be flirting... that threw me off a number of times.... what's so hard about just writing [Flirt] in the dialogue wheel? Sigh.

Agree 100%.  And they really do need to divorce the renegade option to being pro-Cerberus. 

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Does a player HAVE to take Liara back to the Normandy?

Liara: Shepard, I need help with the Shadow Broker.
Shepard: Screw you, b*tch! I hate you! You're annoying, and I don't trust you.
Liara: If that's the way you want it, fine. I just thought you might like to help the person who brought you back from the dead. I suppose I was wrong.
Shepard: You supposed right, Pureblood!
Tali: You're such a jerk, Shepard. We're done.
Shepard: Wha? Tali? No! Liara, wait! I didn't mean it!!

Yeah, you get the option to just say goodbye I believe.  You might still be able to invite her over if you come back later though.

As an aside, I liked the fact that, unlike most other LIs in ME2, the dialogue wasn't all one-sided.  With a lot of Bioware romances it boils down to the LI venting their frustratioins on the PC, then you help them out with advice or a side quest, then bam! you're in a relationship.  It's like you're a therapist who gets paid in sex.  I liked that Liara was treated as an active participant in their relationship, whether it be friendly or romantic, and that she actually wants to know how Shapard is doing after all this time.  Strangely enough, the only other LI who does this is Jacob.

[Ieldra]

I have to agree that the way Shepards comes across in LotSB is great. Perhaps not so much if you really hate Liara, but it's very plausible they would be at least allies, more likely friends. I also liked that I had the opportunity to define my (non-Liara) romance more clearly in the conversation on the Normandy.



The basic problem with the dialoge wheel, however, remains: the inability to correctly gauge the way Shepard will answer when making your choice.

[FlyinElk212]

Here here, my flying cop car friend!

Seeing ANYTHING from Brick Shepard emotionally is always a nice thing. My favorite scene with Shepard in ME1? The scene where s/he drops to the Normandy's floor in frustration after being grounded by the council. My favorite scene with Shepard in ME2? His interaction with Liara in his quarters.

I think this, more than "canonizing", is the important thing, really. The ability for the player to truly flesh out Shepard's character the way they want; not simply make his tough decisions.

[coinop25]

Hathur wrote...

The wheel needs to be better at making it clear to the player what emotion or action is attached to it.... Frankly, in cases like that it should be blatant and just write: [Kill him] so it's clear and to the point.

For the paragon... there's often dialogue choices that cause Shep to flirt with a group member when the dialogue choice itself did not even remotely suggest you would be flirting... that threw me off a number of times.... what's so hard about just writing [Flirt] in the dialogue wheel? Sigh.

I hope somebody at Bioware plays Alpha Protocol and realizes that the dialog system in that game actually worked better in a lot of cases (i..e, in exactly the way you're saying). 

As for moving toward a "canon" Shepard personality, I think ME2 as a whole already started this process. As others have noted around here, Bioware has tightened the range between Paragon and Renegade. Now, a Paragon action might mean grabbing a rude volus and a harassing C-Sec officer by the collar and shouting them down. A Renegade action might be as innocuous as sniping a robot in the head when borrowing an ally's sniper rifle. You're not choosing between good vs. evil, but more along the lines of "do something to help something" vs. "do things MY way." Both allow for a great deal of badassery.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have to agree that the way Shepards comes across in LotSB is great. Perhaps not so much if you really hate Liara, but it's very plausible they would be at least allies, more likely friends. I also liked that I had the opportunity to define my (non-Liara) romance more clearly in the conversation on the Normandy.

The basic problem with the dialoge wheel, however, remains: the inability to correctly gauge the way Shepard will answer when making your choice.

DA2 apparently has the answer to this, adding little icons next to each dialogue option that tells you what kind of response it will be (rude, threat, flirt, etc).

[JamieCOTC]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Here here, my flying cop car friend!
Seeing ANYTHING from Brick Shepard emotionally is always a nice thing. My favorite scene with Shepard in ME1? The scene where s/he drops to the Normandy's floor in frustration after being grounded by the council. My favorite scene with Shepard in ME2? His interaction with Liara in his quarters.
I think this, more than "canonizing", is the important thing, really. The ability for the player to truly flesh out Shepard's character the way they want; not simply make his tough decisions.

This. This. 1000 times, this! 

[smudboy]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Here here, my flying cop car friend!
Seeing ANYTHING from Brick Shepard emotionally is always a nice thing. My favorite scene with Shepard in ME1? The scene where s/he drops to the Normandy's floor in frustration after being grounded by the council. My favorite scene with Shepard in ME2? His interaction with Liara in his quarters.
I think this, more than "canonizing", is the important thing, really. The ability for the player to truly flesh out Shepard's character the way they want; not simply make his tough decisions.

We can start imagining, how ME2 would've panned out, if immediately after getting out of Lazarus and hooking up with Liara, then ditching TIM.

-you'd recruit a team for an actual reason.
-you'd have sent out probes to the Omega-4 relay and learned about your enemy
-etc.

Canonizing is interesting, since it implies things that had to have happened in the series that would be part of Shepard's awareness or history.  This was a perfect opportunity for Shepard to grow as a character via the 2 years/Lazarus issue, but not even LOTSB bothered.  Why can't Shepard grow?  What's stopping the writers here?

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

To all the people complaining that their "mean Shep who isnt Liaras friend doesnt have the right dialogue", youre over half a year late. Many people had that problem with Tali and Garrus ages ago in the core game. Honestly, I dont see the problem, just as I didnt with Tali and Garrus. You make the choice to commit to something, and Id prefer it that they concentrate on writing it well rather than adding ****y dialogue for the sake of it.



As for the DLC, I didnt notice a tremendous amount of difference really. Maybe the conversation where I just took paragon interrupts instead of dialogue options for sure, but often it felt similar to ME2 itself with the dialogue. Sometimes dialogue without player prompt works and saves time, other times its just an annoying and stupid line you dont like.



The only area I felt was truly standout from a dialogue perspective was the content of certain dialogues, as opposed to the execution of it.



Like someone has said, just like the "locker scene" in ME1, it was nice to actually see Shepard engaged in an emotional conversation for once. The romance spin on it for my Shepard (just as with ME1) only made things even better.



Ultimately Id say how they execute the dialogue still isnt quite as important as what dialogue is being executed. The important thing is not prompted or unprompted dialogue, but that just the dialogue in general wasnt crap. That sometimes was the case in ME2, and thats maybe where I picked up a bigger issue with dialogue.

[NanQuan]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I personally never felt that my Shepard was in fact alive and responsive to the world around her until the catch-up with Liara on the Normandy. I didn't even romance Liara in ME1, but that scene was still shining with its own brilliance. I was so happy that someone ACTUALLY asked me "How are you doing?", and I was even happier to answer that. It suddenly made me feel my Shepard was more real than I thought she was (especially in ME2).

It's rather funny how a few lines of dialog on the psychological side of a character can only add so much depth into that character. Asking you how you're doing, asking you what you're fighting for, asking you about your current love interest, encouraging you that you haven't done all this for nothing, wishing you happiness and luck and telling you she would come back again. WHERE was that all in the main game? In fact, where was all that in ANY game at all?

In the main game of ME2, we literally spent tens of hours just listening to other people vent and solving their own problems. Shepard had nothing, not even problems -- until LOTSB showed up. I think that, at this point, we can all agree that Shepard's psychological factor must be more dominant throughout the game. We tend to interact with the world physically, but not psychologically, making us no different than a robot or a VI platform.

I'm so proud of Liara for being the loyal, lovable, and undeniably true friend that she is. I want to thank her for asking me how I was doing, I want to thank her for CARING, I want to thank her for making me FEEL someone at least has the decency to come all the way over to my cabin and ask about my well-being rather than venting about their own problems. She gave me hope and personality. More so than anyone else in the entire galaxy. 

Very much agree. And well said.

[FlyinElk212]

smudboy wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Here here, my flying cop car friend!

Seeing ANYTHING from Brick Shepard emotionally is always a nice thing. My favorite scene with Shepard in ME1? The scene where s/he drops to the Normandy's floor in frustration after being grounded by the council. My favorite scene with Shepard in ME2? His interaction with Liara in his quarters.

I think this, more than "canonizing", is the important thing, really. The ability for the player to truly flesh out Shepard's character the way they want; not simply make his tough decisions.

We can start imagining, how ME2 would've panned out, if immediately after getting out of Lazarus and hooking up with Liara, then ditching TIM.

-you'd recruit a team for an actual reason.
-you'd have sent out probes to the Omega-4 relay and learned about your enemy
-etc.

Canonizing is interesting, since it implies things that had to have happened in the series that would be part of Shepard's awareness or history.  This was a perfect opportunity for Shepard to grow as a character via the 2 years/Lazarus issue, but not even LOTSB bothered.  Why can't Shepard grow?  What's stopping the writers here?

A monkey? A bad typewriter that keeps jamming up on the "good writers"? Magic?

[ExtremeOne]

Dallas118 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I did really enjoy it. The only complaint is that if this conflicts with a certain way you would like to roleplay your Shepard, then that kind of sucks. I thought it was all in character for my Shepard, so I was pleased.

But you are right, by limiting the players choices on the dialog wheel, they actually have more flexibility with what they can do with the character. With this DLC, the different dialog options affected the 'flavor' of Shepard's response, but didn't affect anything else, like the relationship with Liara for example. It's not possible to be extremely cruel with her, and no matter how you play it, it seems that Shepard and Liara have become really close friends by the end of the DLC, as well as business partners (in the Reaper killing business).

Well, not inviting her on the ship is not very nice. Not cruel but it seems that your only interest is the business part.
I think sort of "cruel" was if you order her to return on the Normandy at the beginning of the Noveria mission.

  


I like Liara she is a cool character but yeah killing the Shadow Broker was about business and nothing else for My Shepard. 

[ExtremeOne]

NanQuan wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I personally never felt that my Shepard was in fact alive and responsive to the world around her until the catch-up with Liara on the Normandy. I didn't even romance Liara in ME1, but that scene was still shining with its own brilliance. I was so happy that someone ACTUALLY asked me "How are you doing?", and I was even happier to answer that. It suddenly made me feel my Shepard was more real than I thought she was (especially in ME2).

It's rather funny how a few lines of dialog on the psychological side of a character can only add so much depth into that character. Asking you how you're doing, asking you what you're fighting for, asking you about your current love interest, encouraging you that you haven't done all this for nothing, wishing you happiness and luck and telling you she would come back again. WHERE was that all in the main game? In fact, where was all that in ANY game at all?

In the main game of ME2, we literally spent tens of hours just listening to other people vent and solving their own problems. Shepard had nothing, not even problems -- until LOTSB showed up. I think that, at this point, we can all agree that Shepard's psychological factor must be more dominant throughout the game. We tend to interact with the world physically, but not psychologically, making us no different than a robot or a VI platform.

I'm so proud of Liara for being the loyal, lovable, and undeniably true friend that she is. I want to thank her for asking me how I was doing, I want to thank her for CARING, I want to thank her for making me FEEL someone at least has the decency to come all the way over to my cabin and ask about my well-being rather than venting about their own problems. She gave me hope and personality. More so than anyone else in the entire galaxy. 

Very much agree. And well said.

  



Liara is a good friend to have 

[KainrycKarr]

I'm worried that Bioware will go over the top with it. LotSB was a nice balance...but Bioware needs to be careful, or they'll lose certain aspects that make the whole thing interesting. I still want my Shepard to by my Shepard, and be able to choose how he acts.

[ExtremeOne]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I'm worried that Bioware will go over the top with it. LotSB was a nice balance...but Bioware needs to be careful, or they'll lose certain aspects that make the whole thing interesting. I still want my Shepard to by my Shepard, and be able to choose how he acts.

 


I agree if Shepard is nerfed or locked into being nice to certain people it would not work. because then whats the whole point with a player being able to have Shepard be the way they want him or her to be. 

[ladyshara]

KainrycKarr wrote...

I'm worried that Bioware will go over the top with it. LotSB was a nice balance...but Bioware needs to be careful, or they'll lose certain aspects that make the whole thing interesting. I still want my Shepard to by my Shepard, and be able to choose how he acts.

Agreed. I like all the banter on the car chase and little stuff like that but I didn't particularly care for Shepard doing her own thing during the cutscenes. It's an RPG (Kind of. <_<) I don't want them making choices for me.

Of course, I'm biased. I'm still stuck on all those old games were you select your dialogue verbatim. (Yeah Baldur's Gate! )

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

I actually liked that for once Shepard was not able to be a jerk in any way, and is scripted as an essentially good person. A good, smart mouthed person. It's never sat right with me that the hero should be somehow "evil", anyway. Evil doesn't fight evil.

Sure it does.  History is full of evil fighting against evil.

Mao versus Imperial Japan.
Hussein's regime in Iraq versus the revolutionary regime of Iran.
Stalin versus some guy who can go without mention on an internet discussion.

Etc.