94 réponses à ce sujet

[ADLegend21]

lizzbee wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

also he's the only character (besides Liara with the DLC) that asks how Shepard feels so how anyone can hate or dislike the guy for not dumping his life sotry on shepard and asking about her is beyond me. (end rant)

Not true.  In Thane's "locked in" conversation, he asks Shepard, "Are you well?"  Just because the writers don't have Shepard answer anything beyond, "No need to worry about me," doesn't mean that he doesn't ask, and that he's not concerned.

Oh please, "are you well?" is a greeting compared to "After all you've been through you must want to vent" But I stand corrected anyway because Dr. Chakwas asks that after you visit her once you share Brandy with her.

[lizzbee]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Oh please, "are you well?" is a greeting compared to "After all you've been through you must want to vent" But I stand corrected anyway because Dr. Chakwas asks that after you visit her once you share Brandy with her.

Or a more "subtle" way of actually asking how Shepard feels.  Thane's far more controlled than Jacob is and he doesn't bludgeon the way Jacob does.  He considers himself to be in a real relationship with her, and he cares about her, probably even is completely in love with her at that point.  Plus, I got the distinct impression that Jacob only asks because Shepard's hitting too close to home about his father issues and he's looking to deflect her.  <---This impression is irrelevant to my point, though

lazuli wrote...

We'll have to disagree that the species of
the lover has no social or cultural importance.  I wish there were an
accurate analogy I could make here, but the real world is decidedly
devoid of sapient non-humans. 

And of course he's not going to
complain about Thane being a drell when all Shepard is doing is
recruiting him.  Why would he?  But once Shepard has led Jacob to
believe that she wants him, yeah, he'll complain when she drops him for a
non-human.

This has nothing to do with social or cultural importance, and everything to do with hidden bias.  He wouldn't be such a racist jerk about Shepard dumping him for, say, Engineer Donnelly or Ambassador Udina (sorry, can't stop snickering at that image).  Why would he complain about Thane being a drell or call Garrus a "cuttlebone" if he didn't on some level share Cerberus' anti-alien stance?  A dumping is a dumping, whether you're dumped for no reason, or for six-legged Siamese hermaphrodite twins with half a head between the two.

[ADLegend21]

lizzbee wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Oh please, "are you well?" is a greeting compared to "After all you've been through you must want to vent" But I stand corrected anyway because Dr. Chakwas asks that after you visit her once you share Brandy with her.

Or a more "subtle" way of actually asking how Shepard feels.  Thane's far more controlled than Jacob is and he doesn't bludgeon the way Jacob does.  He considers himself to be in a real relationship with her, and he cares about her, probably even is completely in love with her at that point.  Plus, I got the distinct impression that Jacob only asks because Shepard's hitting too close to home about his father issues and he's looking to deflect her.  <---This impression is irrelevant to my point, though

and Jacob doens't consider himself to be in real relationship with Femshep? All thane does is talk about his dead wife and his son, Jacob prefers to handle his own problems even if it means holding them in sometimes  but it was never about him.  Oh yeah and Jacob doesnt go around destroying stuff in Femsheps loft<- (this part is totally satirical, but Thane owes my Kallen Shepard a new desk) Also asking how someone feels is not the same as  asking someone if they have any frustration they'd like to get off of their chest. for all we know Thane could be asking how she is after her last mission Jacobs more direct.

[lizzbee]

ADLegend21 wrote...
and Jacob doens't consider himself to be in real relationship with Femshep? All thane does is talk about his dead wife and his son, Jacob prefers to handle his own problems even if it means holding them in sometimes  but it was never about him.  Oh yeah and Jacob doesnt go around destroying stuff in Femsheps loft<- (this part is totally satirical, but Thane owes my Kallen Shepard a new desk) Also asking how someone feels is not the same as  asking someone if they have any frustration they'd like to get off of their chest. for all we know Thane could be asking how she is after her last mission Jacobs more direct.

**snicker**  I'm curious to see how shattered my Ellen's poor desk is   Then again, I imagine her moving everything that matters down to Life Support...

Who can tell what the hell Jacob really thinks about anything?  That's the crux of a lot of peoples' problems with Jacob.  Does he like Shepard?  Trust him/her?  Is he Shep's friend or some PA jerk?  Is he in Shep's camp, or is Shep the next in a long line of mistrusted commanders?

The lock-in convo definitely doesn't really give you the impression that Jacob really cares about FemShep at all.

Thane: Hello, Siha-- I'm glad to see you.  How are you?  I can't wait until this is all over and I can finally relax with you.

Garrus:  We must be nuts about thinking about...  You still want to, right?  I mean, I'm glad to, but...  Oh, good, you do!

Jacob:  What, Shepard, you here to break up with me or something?  Cuz I like what we have when I'm not talking to you and you're not close by.  You're lucky you're you or I'd do something unspecified to you if you weren't breaking up with me.  Isn't that what women do when they come talk to you?  Break up with you?

Modifié par lizzbee, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:58 .

[lazuli]

lizzbee wrote...
This has nothing to do with social or cultural importance, and everything to do with hidden bias.  He wouldn't be such a racist jerk about Shepard dumping him for, say, Engineer Donnelly or Ambassador Udina (sorry, can't stop snickering at that image).  Why would he complain about Thane being a drell or call Garrus a "cuttlebone" if he didn't on some level share Cerberus' anti-alien stance?  A dumping is a dumping, whether you're dumped for no reason, or for six-legged Siamese hermaphrodite twins with half a head between the two.

It is ridiculous to suggest that dumping a fellow human in favor of a romantic relationship with an alien has no social or cultural importance.  A dumping is a dumping, yeah, when your human partner leaves you for another human.  If there is evidence to suggest that human/turian or human/drell relationships are anything short of remarkably rare and unworthy of comment in the Mass Effect universe, please point me to it.

When people are emotionally hurt, sometimes they lash out  in ways that they might later regret.  They can react in ways that seem childish, hateful, or otherwise inappropriate.  When people are incredibly angry, making them see reason can be difficult.  Emotions play a huge role in the way people interact.  Jacob, perhaps repressing emotions, lashes out when Shepard casually ditches him to "clean house" and make room for Garrus.  If you want to interpret his ugly remarks about Garrus or Thane as the truest and most genuine part of his character, then I think you're missing a lot.


And Cerberus' stance is not "anti-alien."  There is a difference between being pro-human and anti-alien.

[HakkyounoTenshi]

I like Jacob. Yes he can be a very meh character, but it's not as bad as people think.

I actually like his end-of-tree comment. It's more honest. The others comments are excuses about work, but he knows your there to ask him something about himself, he's not ready, and he tells you that. I mean really, how many times does Garrus need to calibrate the main guns, you don't even use them until the suicide mission.

Something I found interesting about him is one of his dialogs. There are certain characters you can talk to to tell you what shape your in for the suicide mission. Joker will tell you if you have the neccesary upgrades for the ship but  it's Jacob who tells you when the squad is ready.

[nespeed]

"I mean really, how many times does Garrus need to calibrate the main guns, you don't even use them until the suicide mission."



HA that's great!

[H1natachan]

personally i found Jacob very bland and very very boring and soon as i could get Garrus i'd keep Jacob permantly on the side lines until i had to suffer doing his loyalty mission.Also i found his moving his neck around trying to look the big tough guy when asking about upgrades annoying.
In hindsight i think that when BW came up with the chara they made him bland deliberatly to avoid the possible outcries that may have come about if they gave him all the best 1 liners ( wesley snipes in demolition man anyone ? ). Point i was trying to make was that BW were maybe too self concious of falling into racial stereotypical ground.
in other words damned if they do damned if they dont.

Modifié par H1natachan, 17 septembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Habelo]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

How could Jacob inspire hate?

He's with Cerberus... but wary.
He's tough... but thoughtful.
He's open... but reserved.
He's respectful... but not conciliatory.

It's like he was built to be mild.

Whoever can logically explain to me why they hate Jacob wins the priiiize.

he is boring. he sucks as an npc.

[lazuli]

Habelo wrote...
he is boring. he sucks as an npc.

I assume "boring" refers to his personality.  But I'm curious about your "sucks as an npc" comment.  Is it referring to gameplay/combat or again, personality?

[Habelo]

lazuli wrote...

Habelo wrote...
he is boring. he sucks as an npc.

I assume "boring" refers to his personality.  But I'm curious about your "sucks as an npc" comment.  Is it referring to gameplay/combat or again, personality?

combat. I tend to dislike those npc's that are useless to me (fu tali!).

[Some Dude]

Habelo wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Habelo wrote...
he is boring. he sucks as an npc.

I assume "boring" refers to his personality.  But I'm curious about your "sucks as an npc" comment.  Is it referring to gameplay/combat or again, personality?

combat. I tend to dislike those npc's that are useless to me (fu tali!).

Do you have the Geth Shotgun?

[Daewan]

He's a horribly written character. It's as if one writer started him as a good guy, and someone else picked him and wanted to make him a bad guy, and then a third person was assigned to make him consistent in thirty minutes before the game went gold, and all the writers were told "Make him Black, but don't do any stereotypical Black stuff." Also, they were all told "femShep is in love with him and all the female players will like him, so don't worry about making him likeable."

And compared to Miranda's overpowered skill set, he does suck as backup and should be permanently benched.

[Xilizhra]

And Cerberus' stance is not "anti-alien." There is a difference between being pro-human and anti-alien.

Paragon Shepard is pro-human, along with being pro-alien. Renegade Shepard and Cerberus are pro-human and anti-alien.



Also, Jacob is meh but also amusing.

[lazuli]

Daewan wrote...

He's a horribly written character. It's as if one writer started him as a good guy, and someone else picked him and wanted to make him a bad guy, and then a third person was assigned to make him consistent in thirty minutes before the game went gold, and all the writers were told "Make him Black, but don't do any stereotypical Black stuff." Also, they were all told "femShep is in love with him and all the female players will like him, so don't worry about making him likeable."
And compared to Miranda's overpowered skill set, he does suck as backup and should be permanently benched.

I used to agree with you.  Then I gave Jacob another try (or two).  His romance doesn't seem as awkward on subsequent playthroughs.  I know this isn't a very good defense.  And I agree that his romance could certainly be better.  There are some parts of it that I don't particularly like.  As for his personality, he was the protagonist of Mass Effect: Galaxy, and as such players could mold him in different directions (a la paragon vs. renegade).  So I can't imagine transcribing an amorphous set of choices into a believable character was easy.  But I find his personality agreeable.  He is stable, cool, and collected.  You could argue that he has repressed his emotions, but I'm not sure I agree with that.

And everyone sucks compared to Miranda.  Ok, that's not entirely accurate.  But I would definitely say that she is the best squadmate in terms of combat effectiveness, especially on higher difficulties.  However, Jacob fits in well with certain Shepard classes, even on Insanity.  Sentinels and Adepts can get a lot out of his early access to Pull Field.  And his Squad Incendiary Ammo can be useful even for combat classes with their own ammo powers because most of these combat builds focus on class skill and passive before mastering an ammo power.  He might not be the best fit for, say, an Insanity Vanguard in the later parts of the game, but I don't think he should be "permanently benched."

Xilizhra wrote...
Paragon Shepard is pro-human, along with being pro-alien. Renegade Shepard and Cerberus are pro-human and anti-alien.

Cerberus believes in advancing the goals of humanity.  Nowhere in their credo does it say they are anti-alien. They believe humanity deserves a greater role in the galactic community.  And I can't say I agree with your sweeping generalizations about renegade Shepard.

Modifié par lazuli, 17 septembre 2010 - 10:24 .

[ADLegend21]

Habelo wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Habelo wrote...
he is boring. he sucks as an npc.

I assume "boring" refers to his personality.  But I'm curious about your "sucks as an npc" comment.  Is it referring to gameplay/combat or again, personality?

combat. I tend to dislike those npc's that are useless to me (fu tali!).

Maye you're not using him (or tali) right? Everyone on Mass effect is useful as a squadmate somehow or else they'd jsut stay on the normandy. Thane used to be useless to me, but he was my cover fire on my vanguard playthrough and was money when I chraged into crowds, Jacob was useful on my infiltrator because he was tearing up squads with his inciendiary shotgun and I'd pick off the ones he didn't get.

[KendallX23]

jacob is a great npc in batlle..to date..he is still the only squadmate who never went down in combat...tali is also good..her drone is a good way to nake enemies forget about u

[Homebound]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

How could Jacob inspire hate?

He's with Cerberus... but wary.
He's tough... but thoughtful.
He's open... but reserved.
He's respectful... but not conciliatory.

It's like he was built to be mild.

Whoever can logically explain to me why they hate Jacob wins the priiiize.

I dont hate him, he's a pretty nice guy. Unfortunately, thats what makes him boring. Also, you'll never pick him ever again in your squad except during the opening game, and his loyalty mission. As a squadmate, he's pretty useless imho.

[KendallX23]

Just_mike wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

How could Jacob inspire hate?

He's with Cerberus... but wary.
He's tough... but thoughtful.
He's open... but reserved.
He's respectful... but not conciliatory.

It's like he was built to be mild.

Whoever can logically explain to me why they hate Jacob wins the priiiize.

I dont hate him, he's a pretty nice guy. Unfortunately, thats what makes him boring. Also, you'll never pick him ever again in your squad except during the opening game, and his loyalty mission. As a squadmate, he's pretty useless imho.

              no offense but this is your personal opinion...Jacob is almost always in my squad during a playthrough...it's the other squadmate that i alternate

[brfritos]

You know, I play most of the game as a femShep and my first playthrough ever was pretty much like a lot of people, having a relationship with Jacob.
Wich makes me fully regret that option and wish I being shot in the head.

Well he made me laugh like hell when saying we should go to a strip bar spill some drinks.
I tough "WTF!!!", but it's ok.
As the time passed I really began to apreciate the guy, so after 18 or 20 playthroughs I try to date him again, to the point that Liara complain about how much I like see him without his clothes (the best line in my opinion , however, is about Garrus LOL).

Jacob is one hell of a fighter if you know how to use him and for Sentinels/Adepts he's a must.

But the main reason I like him (and Jack, BTW) is that they don't give a f**k about who Shepard is.
Sure, they respect the accomplishments of the Commander, but try to be a smart ass with these two and you'll see where you end.
Also, they are the only two NPC's that actually dump Shepard if he/she try to persue a relatioship with them and start to dump crap in the conversation.

I mean, with Thane, Miranda, Tali and Garrus you pretty much can say whatever you like whenever you like.
Hell, Shepard is honest too when saying to Miranda that nobody talked about love, he just want to have sex with her, but I don't see all this hatred about him.