24 réponses à ce sujet

[SDCrush]

I could have put this in one of the (many) other Ash vs. Kaidan topics, but I honestly wanted to start a new discussion based entirely on the tactical reasoning behind this decision.  If one of the mods disagrees/hates me for this, close it up I suppose.

My question is this: TACTICALLY, what does it make the most sense to do here?  If, for instance, you were moderately friendly with both and romancing neither, what would drive the decision?  Would you want to clear out everyone attacking the bombsite, or leave your squadmate with it to protect it until it blows?  Would you save Kaidan no matter where he is, because he's the ranking officer?  Would you save Ash because she's a woman and it's the chivalrous thing to do (or girl power, if you're female)?  Basically, I want to know what people think would/should drive this decision without anything like "Kaidan's a whiner" or "Ash is a bigot" or "I  her/him."  If you were an actual military officer, who do you leave to their death here?

[upsettingshorts]

1) Ashley with the Salarians. Not a specialist, a non-com Alliance marine and former squad leader. Familiar with communication protocols.  Probly lets one of the no-name crewmen who drag the nuke off the Normandy arm it.
2) Kaidan is left to arm the bomb. Kaidan is a specialist and while skilled in combat it isn't really his thing. Since the Salarians are the "muscle" of the operation, it makes more sense to hold him back.  Can arm the nuke.

Decision time we can look at one of two ways.

If we know the bomb will go off anyway: Save Ashley and the Salarians at the AA Tower, simply because there are more of them and - let's face it - the fight with Saren is much cooler on the AA Tower.

If we do NOT know the bomb will go off anyway: Save Kaidan. Your whole purpose for being there is blowing up the base, that bomb needs to go off, so securing it is of vital importance.

That'd be the purely objective, logical way to go - IMHO

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

I agree completely.

-Kaidan Goes with the bomb because he has "tech" experience.

-Ashley Goes with Salarians because of soldier "Hold the Line" experience.



I don't know how exactly Kaidan "Makes sure" that the bomb goes off so I secure it.



Although I have to admit, the holding his/her guts in while protecting the bomb is a bit more dramatic...

[SDCrush]

I haven't actually played through this part of the game in ... a year or so, I think, so I may be misremembering some specifics, but you both make good arguments.  I believe Kirrahe mentioned that it would be "extremely difficult" to disarm the bomb once you set it, and Kaidan says he can hold it, but you ARE fighting Geth.  If anyone is going to be able to stop an electronic device, it would be them, right?  I've always felt much more solid with saving whoever is at the bomb site, personally.
However, consider this: IF Kirrahe/Kaidan is to be believed, then rescuing Ash on the AA tower (or vice-versa, if you sent them opposite) could be a prudent decision.  In the absence of clairvoyance (previous playthroughs), shouldn't we assume that any suriviving Salarians would be on the AA tower and would never make it to the Normandy if you didn't assist them?  If your squadmate assures you that he/she can protect the bomb, then you would be saving one life by returning to the bomb site, and numerous by hitting the AA tower.  Is this relevant?

[Arbalest7]

Tactically making sure the bomb goes off takes priority it is the mission objective after all.

[HakkyounoTenshi]

In all honesty, taking the mission itself out of the picture, Kaiden is more valuble than Ashley is (in my opinion). I have said this before on several other threads but Kaiden is an officer and a specialist, whereas Ashley is just a soldier. They are both military, so gender is not part of the equation.

Kaiden is a L2 Biotic and he has minimal complications, making him a rarity. In all honesty, he is probably one of the most powerful biotics the Alliance military has. He has tech training, and from the looks of the Sentinel skill tree, medical training as well. The cost that would gone into his training and equipment is easily ten times that of Ashley's.

Ashely is your run-of-the-mill soldier. She is probably one of the best, but there is nothing really ability wise that singles her out as a resource.

Ashley is probably (and somewhat ironically) the better squadmate gameplay wise for most players, and she is a wonderful character, but she's far more easily replaced. It is much easier and less expensive to train another Soldier than it is train another L2 Sentinel.

Of course, putting the mission back in, the top priority is the bomb. Destroying the base is the object of your mission, and I feel the priority is making sure the bomb goes off no matter what, which means defending it until the last possible moment.

Modifié par HakkyounoTenshi, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[HakkyounoTenshi]

Spuudle wrote...

Whilst I take your points, I'd tend to disagree with you, based on the following;

Kaidans Tech skills, are way inferior to those of Tali. His Biotic skills are inferior to those of Liara.
Wrex has similar biotic ability / Garrus has similar tech ability

No one else within the squad (yourself aside) has full combat ability like Ashley.  Choosing Kaidan, from a 'strength and balance of squad' perspective is just a non argument. It has to be Ashley every time. There is no valid tactical or technical reasoning that can argue for Kaidan, in my opinion. This is based on the squad you have in ME1 though, from the players perspective.  I.E we cant go out and train/include another soldier.

You misunderstand my reasoning. When SDCrush opened the topic, the question was what tactics and reasoning make your decision. My statement is from a roleplay perspective. Notice I didn't call Kaiden the more valuble squadmate I called him the more valuble resource.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Spuudle wrote...

HakkyounoTenshi wrote...

Spuudle wrote...

Whilst I take your points, I'd tend to disagree with you, based on the following;

Kaidans Tech skills, are way inferior to those of Tali. His Biotic skills are inferior to those of Liara.
Wrex has similar biotic ability / Garrus has similar tech ability

No one else within the squad (yourself aside) has full combat ability like Ashley.  Choosing Kaidan, from a 'strength and balance of squad' perspective is just a non argument. It has to be Ashley every time. There is no valid tactical or technical reasoning that can argue for Kaidan, in my opinion. This is based on the squad you have in ME1 though, from the players perspective.  I.E we cant go out and train/include another soldier.

You misunderstand my reasoning. When SDCrush opened the topic, the question was what tactics and reasoning make your decision. My statement is from a roleplay perspective. Notice I didn't call Kaiden the more valuble squadmate I called him the more valuble resource.

I dont think ive missed your reasoning at all.  I stated I was coming from the players perspective and wasn't saying you were wrong, just that from my stated perspective that I disagree. I appreciate that you were coming from another angle. I feel Ashley is more valuable as a squadmate when facing the decision to choose. You feel Kaidan is a more valuable resource, but when actually playing and the choice arises, who then, do you choose? And why?
EDIT-Typo

When trying to argue the value of Ashley compaired to Kaidan it doesnt help much having a sig that advertises the fact that you are an Ashley fanboy.

[HakkyounoTenshi]

Mr Mxyzptlk wrote...


When trying to argue the value of Ashley compaired to Kaidan it doesnt help much having a sig that advertises the fact that you are an Ashley fanboy.

Mr. Mxyzptlk,

I appreciate your input and your opinion, but Spuudle does make valid points. He believes that it is worth more to save Ashley and makes good arguments for that reasoning. His signature in no way detracts from the validity of his arguments.

Spuudle wrote...

I dont think ive missed your reasoning at all.  I stated I was coming
from the players perspective and wasn't saying you were wrong, just that
from my stated perspective that I disagree. I appreciate that you were
coming from another angle. I feel Ashley is more valuable as a squadmate
when facing the decision to choose. You feel Kaidan is a more valuable
resource, but when actually playing and the choice arises, who then, do
you choose? And why?
EDIT-Typo

Unless I'm romancing Ashley, I save Kaiden. Like I said earlier I believe he's the more valuble resource, and I tend to leave him at the bombsite, and from (my) roleplaying perspective the primary objective is to secure the bomb. My primary party tends to be Garrus and Wrex anyway, so party make up does not influence the decision.

Modifié par HakkyounoTenshi, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[CaptainZaysh]

As far as rescuing Kaiden over Ashley because he's an officer and she's not: I'd argue that's actually a reason to save Ash.



An army will fall apart as an effective fighting force if morale or loyalty are compromised. The British Army teaches that officers earn loyalty by embodying six values: commitment, self-sacrifice, courage, professionalism, decency and integrity.



If the officer class does not routinely display more self-sacrifice and courage than the troops they command, it will lose the loyalty of the troops. In contrast Kaiden sacrificing himself so a sergeant under his command could be evac'd is a stellar example of courage and self-sacrifice and is ideal officer behaviour.

[Mooner911]

Arbalest7 wrote...
Tactically making sure the bomb goes off takes priority it is the mission objective after all.

Affirmative. Shep must return to the nuke to ensure the mission's success regardless of who arms it. As for who Shep chooses to join Kirrahe, both Ash and Kaiden are fully capable of babysitting/arming the nuke, so Shep should choose Ash since Kirrahe clearly requires a tank. Nevertheless, I always save Kaiden for ME2.

[DPSSOC]

Spuudle wrote...

Apologies if im wrong but i thought kaidan was classed as an alliance sentinel. I didnt think he outranked ashley at all, just that he had a different skillset?  i agree with your description of required officer attributes, just didnt realize kaidan was an alliance 'officer'.

Kaidan is referred to as LT making him a Lieutenant (low ranking officer) while Ashley is a Gunnery Chief (high ranking NCO).

As for Virmire.  I usually send Kaidan to the bomb and Ash with the Salarians because as others have stated I feel that's where they best fit.  When it comes to the decision from a tactical standpoint I have received two assurances that the bomb will go off.  Kirrahe assures me that it will work and is difficult to disarm, and Kaidan assures me he can hold the site until the bomb blows.  I have no reason to doubt their judgement and trust that Kaidan, as an officer, is level headed enough to not jeopardize the mission out of pride or sentimentality.  This puts me into damage control, the bomb is going to blow so which course of action saves the most people.  Ultimately I choose Ash and the Salarians.

[mcsupersport]

I always send the officer to the Salarians, so Kaidan is with the Salarians. His leadership, plus his rank are more likely to be needed with the Salarians. Think about it, you are asking someone to come in and lead your group, choices are one Grunt one Officer, your Allies hand over the Grunt, what do you think about it?? Especially since the Officer is a Biotic which is rare to your kind and is incredibly useful in combat. Also remember Salaraians are tougher than they look, so firepower isn't a prime need if you take them at their word.





My biggest concern with the bomb isn't so much it getting disarmed but loaded onto the Geth ship and transported away from where it must be as stated in game. IF that is the only place it will destroy the base, then the Geth could simply move it to another location and since the ship is right above the bomb I can never take the chance.



From a gameplay perspective, unless I am playing a soldier then Ashly is almost always in my party for the tanking and firepower. Now in real life you could probably easily get a replacement soldier from either the crew compliment or a local base, but in game, she is too valuable to waste for my plays. I always run a fairly balanced party, so Kaiden doesn't mesh well with how I play my parties.

[CaptainZaysh]

Do the salarians want the Alliance soldier to lead them? I thought it was more about radio comms or something.

[CaptainZaysh]

Armies have soldiers, then NCOs (like corporals and sergeants), then officers (lieutenant and up). All officers outrank all NCOs. Gunnery Chief is an NCO rank (which is why Ash calls Kaiden 'sir'.)

[DPSSOC]

Spuudle wrote...

There does seem to be some confusion with people assuming that Kaidan is in fact an officer who outranks Ashley. I agree with DPSSOC in that, it is actually Ashley as Gunnery Chief, that outranks Kaidan.

Sorry if their was some confusion.  Kaidan is a Lieutenant which is a low ranking officer, but even the lowest ranking officer outranks the highest ranking NCO.  NCO stands for Non Commissioned Officer where Kaidan would technically a CO (Commissioned Officer) what you have to do to earn your commission varies from military to military (and no doubt army to navy).

[Killjoy Cutter]

Spuudle wrote...

There does seem to be some confusion with people assuming that Kaidan is in fact an officer who outranks Ashley. I agree with DPSSOC in that, it is actually Ashley as Gunnery Chief, that outranks Kaidan.

Gunnery Chief most likely refers to Chief Gunnery Sergeant, which would not outrank a Lieutenant.

[PsyrenY]

Just a note, discussions of Ashley's rank should take into account that the only reason it's so low is because of her family history holding her back.

As a second note; concerning Kaidan's tech skill vis a vis the bomb - the Salarians are the ones who rigged it (it's their drive core) so it's not like we need someone who knows their omnitool inside-out to arm it. Further, while Kaidan has the tech experience, he also has the "commanding/coordinating troops" experience too. He wouldn't have made LT without it.



Not saying I went one specific way or the other, just saying that "Ash with troops Kaidan with bomb save Kaidan" is not the only logical way for this to play out.

[rwilli80]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Further, while Kaidan has the tech experience, he also has the "commanding/coordinating troops" experience too. He wouldn't have made LT without it.

I don't know, I've met plenty of naval LTs who couldn't lead themselves out of an outhouse.

Modifié par rwilli80, 24 septembre 2010 - 12:05 .