363 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

- The Reapers don't need to use the Citadel to get in the Milky Way. Check.
- The Reapers don't need to use the Citadel early in the invasion. Check.


VIGIL'S LIES

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to the Citadel mainframe come from?

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Protheans being extinct.

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and/or indoctrinate the Council". And even then, infiltrating the Citadel in a more customary fashion would be a more reliable and subtle plan.

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

My answers are these:

1. The "datafile" predates the last Reaper invasion.

2. The Reapers weren't surprised about the Conduit. Because the Protheans did not built it. It was there always, and Ilos was always part of the Reaper plan.

3. The Protheans on Ilos were indoctrinated and worshipped the Reapers.

4. Because after Shepard's brief visit it was not only pointless but also dangerous to continue functioning, and Vigil self-terminated.

5. Something they needed. A key. A "datafile".

6. I think there's a lot more to it. Like, why Chorban didn't take notice that for the last cycle the Keepers were dancing to another tune? - Because they were not, as they had not been tinkered with, and the "12 scientists" never existed.


REAPERS' PLANS

It would make perfect sense, if the Reapers had a more profound plan, than just "Come, Reap, Return to Base". I mean, if the Protheans were indoctrinated for several generations, as Mordin infers, they could be used for some purposes such as preparing the next cycle, before being exterminated, except for the C-Base crew.

The harvested civilizations not only provide the Reapers with resources to maintain their "eternal" exisetnce, but also prepare (uplift) species that are on the verge (or maybe even not so much) of becoming sapient on their own, to make sure that in 50K years a new "harvest" is ripe.  To reap a more ample harvest, it's essential to cultivate the crop at all times. That's the meaning behind Sovereign's claim that the Reapers impose order over chaos.

So, when Harbinger says "your species has the attention of those infinitely greater", it may be a reference to the times immemorial (for us). And the Protheans studied the early humans 50K years ago and put that cache of cool stuff on Mars per the Reapers' instructions.


WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO THE PROTHEANS

Guided by the Reapers, passively via the Citadel / mass relays scheme, and actively via the Collectors' predecessors from beyond the Omega-4 relay, the Protheans reached some sufficiently high technological level, and among other things started to cybernetically augment themselves, becoming "trans-Protheans". If there were other intelligent/spacefaring races in the Galaxy at that time, the Protheans subjugated and assimilated or exterminated them.

Then the Reapers showed up in person, said "Hai gaiz!" and did their thing - finished the trasnsformation of the Protheans into Collectors and possibly "ascended" some of them to the reaperhood. The Protheans were already morally prepped for this, and welcomed the Reapers. Maybe they even staged a little galaxy-wide celebration with some techno-style carol singing. And their Reaper bosses gave them a whole week off. Because they still had a job to do.

Per the Reapers' instructions, the Protheans/Collectors spent the final times of their existence preparing the next cycle - uplifting a few new "promising" races, including the Humans. When this task was done, the previous "crew" of the strategic station beyond the Omega-4 relay was replaced with the Collectors, and the entire husk of the Prothean civilization in the rest of the Galaxy was momentarily extinguished.

This is the meaning of the Beacon vision, and this is what Harbinger had in prospect for the Humans too.


MORE FACTS

Gianna Parasini says something about "everyone" (read: "nobody in particular") suddenly interested in the dark energy, which, according to Tali, seems to be behind the Haestrom's star aging. Maybe the Reapers want to learn about their mistake?

This dark energy anomalies may be a natural phenomenon so rare, that the Reapers have overlooked it so far... Or it may be something else, like the work of those Klencory's "beings of light", or an accumulated side effect of the billions of years of Reapers' own activities... Not enough data to even take guesses here.
 
But the facts are:

dark energy => stars age fast.
stars age => they go supernovae
Mu Relay's star went supernova, apparenlty "without warning" to be seen during the previous cycle.


MAIN POINT

It was the supernova, that "blew away" the Mu Relay, that gave the current generation of life a chance against the Reapers. Why didn't the Reapers predict it? Because the stars have a few surprizes, even for them, like that of Haestrom's star, that is aging "all of a sudden".


TRIVIA

Also, this is a most irrational argument in support of this theory, but still. BioWare is known to be geeky about the Greek mythology. The Codex entry draws an analogy between Ilos and Troy. Moreover, the dude by the name Ilos was the founder of ancient Troy. What do we have associated with Troy, except for the awful movie with Bred Pitt? The Troyan Horse. Which gave name to a class of malicious software. So, Shepard was given some unknown "datafile" on a "Troy" planet and put it into the Galaxy's most important computer. RRRRRight.


A side note: By now, I think, the Leviathan of Dis was Sovereign itself. Check the dating: Dr. Shu Qian's co-research with a Batarian scientist started a couple of years after the Batarians allegedly extracted the Leviathan.

And Ilos was probably the Protheans' planet of origin.


RELATED STUFF

> Omega was built by the Reapers -- proof.

> "Citadel is an ark ship" theory.

> Sir Arthur Clarke's "Space Odyssey" series as a possible "source of inspiration" for BioWare.

> My quick theory on the origins and goals of the Reapers, Citadel, Omega and the "beings of light".

> Are the Reapers really in dark space?

> My arguments for the possibility that the Leviathan of Dis could have been Sovereign.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 février 2011 - 11:15 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

what-is-your-point?

[darknoon5]

Leviathan of Dis is:

A) Organic, not synthetic like a reaper

A obvious farscape reference.



That is all.

[didymos1120]

darknoon5 wrote...

Leviathan of Dis is:
A) Organic, not synthetic like a reaper
A obvious farscape reference.

That is all.

It was also:

C) Dead
D) Crashed on the surface of planet
 and:
E) roughly a billion years old

Sovereign definitely wasn't C) or D) when found, and very likely not E) either.  Should also note: it was fully organic. Or close to it at least.  Reapers are still quite obviously machines for the most part.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Leviathan of Dis is:
A) Organic, not synthetic like a reaper
A obvious farscape reference.

That is all.

It was also:

C) Dead
D) Crashed on the surface of planet
 and:
E) roughly a billion years old

Sovereign definitely wasn't C) or D) when found, and very likely not E) either.  Should also note: it was fully organic. Or close to it at least.  Reapers are still quite obviously machines for the most part.

"Jartar is a terrestrial world with a trace atmosphere of krypton and xenon. The surface is hot, and mainly composed of unremarkable silicates. Occasional deposits of aluminum, magnesium, and other light metals can be found.
Jartar is noted for the discovery of the "Leviathan of Dis" the apparent corpse of a genetically engineered living starship. The Leviathan was found in the bottom of a crater by a batarian survey team, and estimated to be nearly a billion years old. It "disappeared" after a visit to the system by a batarian dreadnought twenty years ago.
Since then, the batarians have steadfastly denied that the Leviathan existed at all – and all the more vociferously when shown recordings of the corpse made by salarian researchers."

So, it's neither "fully organic" (how do you "genetically engineer" a starship drive?), nor "crashed", nor the Salarians had taken a good look at it before the Batarians removed it. So it may not be Sovereign, or it may be Sovereign.

wiggles89 wrote...

How are the Reapers omnipotent?

That was a figure of speech. The Reapers aren't, of course, omnipotent. They rely on a sufficiently advanced technology, which enables them to datamine the minds of their subjects. So they would definitely know about the new "statue" on the Presidium, and with a little more research would found out its purpose. Then it would be just a matter of quite a short time to find Ilos (with the Mu Relay still in place).

[Darth Wraith]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to Citadel Control come from?

I'm guessing they made it before leaving Ilos, thereby leaving a copy in Vigil's memory.

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel?

Of course the Reapers could have gone to Ilos if they wanted to; they just didn't because they had no idea anyone was there. The base on Ilos went silent specifically so they wouldn't attract Reaper attention.

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

You have it the wrong way around. The Prothean statues look like Protheans, and so do the husks because they were made from Prothean bodies. Husks made from the bodies of past species are probably either decayed into uselessness or expended.

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

Vigil was in sleep mode for 50,000 years. When it detected Shepard's party on Ilos it re-activated for that purpose only. Either it expended its last energy reserves going active, or something broke when it powered up. Imagine booting a computer with Windows after 50,000 years; how many things could possibly go wrong?

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council".

They needed the Conduit. Saren and the geth had to go through the Conduit to the Citadel to activate it's Mass Relay effect to the other Reapers could enter the galaxy. It wasn't meant to be a diversion, it was the main plan. (Clarification: activating the Citadel relay was the main plan. Using the Conduit was a backup plan after the keepers didn't activate the Citadel relay like they were supposed to.)

So technically it was the supernova, that "blew away" the Mu Relay, that gave the current generarion of life a chance against the Reapers. Why didn't the Reapers predict it? Because the stars have a few surprizes, even for them, like that of Haestrom's star, that is aging "all of a sudden".

Gianna Parasini says something about "everyone" (read: "nobody in particular") suddenly interested in the dark energy, which, according to Tali seems to be behind the Haestrom's star aging. Maybe the Reapers want to learn about their mistake?

I think the Reapers are already aware of the Dark Energy buildup in stars. I think it's caused by using mass effect fields, and the Reapers are pulling the plug on all galactic civillizations at regular intervals to prevent them from setting off supernovas left and right through ignorance. Remember, "we are your salvation through destruction".

On a side note: By now, I think, the Leviathan of Dis was Sovereign itself. Check the dating: Dr. Shi Quan's co-research with a Batarian scientist started a few years after the Batarians allegedly extracted the Leviathan.

My recollection could be off, but hasn't it already been established that the Leviathan wasn't Sovereign? The Leviathan was much older, and it was said to be an organic vessel.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So, it's neither "fully organic" (how do you "genetically engineer" a starship drive?), nor "crashed", nor the Salarians had taken a good look at it before the Batarians removed it. So it may not be Sovereign, or it may be Sovereign.

Quibble over semantic details if you want (and fail to quote my qualifiers).  Something genetically engineered is an pretty much always an organism.  Those tend to be mostly made of organic stuff.  Reapers are constructed, and are mostly made of inorganic material.  If they weren't, I'm pretty sure at least some people would have noticed Sovvy was made of meat.  As to how you genetically engineer a stardrive: irrelevant.  I don't need to know that, or even if it's possible.  Maybe they bolted it on after growing the rest of the ship.  Maybe they were just that awesome at genetic engineering. 

And, fact is, Sovereign was found in orbit as plainly stated in Revelation, not on the surface of any planet.  It was also found by one, singular batarian.  Now unless those other batarians somehow lost the Leviathan after allegedly stealing it, and then this other dude re-found it,  Sovereign could not even potentially be the Leviathan of Dis (which being found in a crater as it was, most likely crashed there). 

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Darth Wraith wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to Citadel Control come from?[/quote]
I'm guessing they made it before leaving Ilos, thereby leaving a copy in Vigil's memory.
[/quote]
That's what I said. So the Vigil's story is basically this: "The Good Guys dindn't see the Bad Guys coming, and when the sh*t hit the fan some of the Good Guys hid here in the cellar. When the Bad Guys went away, a couple remaining Good Guys went out to look what the f*** happened, and never returned. That's how I, the last Good Guy, know an awful lot about the Bad Guys."


[quote]Darth Wraith wrote...




[quote]2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel?[/quote]Of course the Reapers could have gone to Ilos if they wanted to; they just didn't because they had no idea anyone was there. The base on Ilos went silent specifically so they wouldn't attract Reaper attention.
[/quote]
Even if the Ilos was such a classified place, the mini mass relay "statue" on the Presidium was not. It was right there in the open for every Prothean to see. And, BTW, next to the most imporant Citadel structures. Hence, the Reapers would take interest in it and investigate. Moreover, why didn't the Keepers make any fuss about it?



[quote]Darth Wraith wrote...




[quote]3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks? [/quote]
You have it the wrong way around. The Prothean statues look like Protheans, and so do the husks because they were made from Prothean bodies. Husks made from the bodies of past species are probably either decayed into uselessness or expended.
[/quote]
What? All the husks you encounter both in ME1 & 2 are made of humans!



[quote]Darth Wraith wrote...



[quote]4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more? [/quote]Vigil was in sleep mode for 50,000 years. When it detected Shepard's party on Ilos it re-activated for that purpose only. Either it expended its last energy reserves going active, or something broke when it powered up. Imagine booting a computer with Windows after 50,000 years; how many things could possibly go wrong?
[/quote]
If Vigil was in sleep mode, how was it able to detect both Shepard's and Saren's party. Moreover, how was it able to distinguish between the indoctrinated and not indoctrinated organics, if the indoctrination hadn't been known to the pre-invasion Protheans, as it claimed later?


[quote]Darth Wraith wrote...




[quote]5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council". [/quote]
They needed the Conduit. Saren and the geth had to go through the Conduit to the Citadel to activate it's Mass Relay effect to the other Reapers could enter the galaxy. It wasn't meant to be a diversion, it was the main plan. (Clarification: activating the Citadel relay was the main plan. Using the Conduit was a backup plan after the keepers didn't activate the Citadel relay like they were supposed to.)
[/quote]
As I said, a subtle action, such as indoctrinating the Council little by little over the course of years or decades, should have been Sovereign plan of choice, if the only thing it needed was to access the Citadel Tower.

If failed, it would only then be no choice but to openly attack the Citadel. Even then Saren's search of the Counduit makes little sense, because of, well, the plot of ME1 - it tipped off the Jedi Good Guys, and the plan failed.

It would make more sense to strike at the Citadel at once and unload the ground troops rigth into the Council Chamder to push the "Transfer Control" button... Unless there was some key-word-pass-code to input, which had been stored on Ilos.


[quote]Darth Wraith wrote...
[quote]So technically it was the supernova, that "blew away" the Mu Relay, that gave the current generation of life a chance against the Reapers. Why didn't the Reapers predict it? Because the stars have a few surprizes, even for them, like that of Haestrom's star, that is aging "all of a sudden".

Gianna Parasini says something about "everyone" (read: "nobody in particular") suddenly interested in the dark energy, which, according to Tali seems to be behind the Haestrom's star aging. Maybe the Reapers want to learn about their mistake? [/quote]
I think the Reapers are already aware of the Dark Energy buildup in stars. I think it's caused by using mass effect fields, and the Reapers are pulling the plug on all galactic civillizations at regular intervals to prevent them from setting off supernovas left and right through ignorance. Remember, "we are your salvation through destruction".
[/quote]
Interesting theory, but based on what? And actually the most potent mass effect fields are created by the Reaper-built mass relays, without which the organics wouldn't probably be able to expand so fast. In the first place. Granted, we can't comprehend their paradoxes ("salvation through destruction" included), but that doesn't make them any less evil.


[quote]Darth Wraith wrote...




[quote]On a side note: By now, I think, the Leviathan of Dis was Sovereign itself. Check the dating: Dr. Shu Qian's co-research with a Batarian scientist started a few years after the Batarians allegedly extracted the Leviathan.[/quote]
My recollection could be off, but hasn't it already been established that the Leviathan wasn't Sovereign? The Leviathan was much older, and it was said to be an organic vessel.
[/quote]

How old are the Reapers exactly? And what is this about "organic vessel"? The planet description says "genetically engineered", but BioWare uses the word so often in such bullsh*tty ways, that it can really mean anything, including a Reaper, especially after the Super-Baby-Terminator fight. And how is an "organic vessel" supposed to travel in space? Eat some corn planetside, then fart?

OK.

The Reapers are very old big starships constructed with use of organic material.
The Leviathan is a very old big starship constructed with use of organic material.
Conclusion: the Leviathan could be a Reaper.
Sovereign was a Reaper.
Conclusion: the Leviathan could have been Sovereign.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[dreman9999]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to Citadel Control come from?

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel?

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council".

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

.

1.It was a NOT an anti-reaper datafile. It was an override file for the citadel's Mass realay function. Unlike the current races, the Protheans at least poked are the stations functions.
2. It was built after the prothean Reper invation.
3........They don't look like Husk.
4.He was on a low powered sleep mode for 50k years coserving the little power it had left.
5.....Why even ask?
6....Like?

[Zulu_DFA]

dreman9999 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to Citadel Control come from?

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel?

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council".

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

.

1.It was a NOT an anti-reaper datafile. It was an override file for the citadel's Mass realay function. Unlike the current races, the Protheans at least poked are the stations functions.

Yes, but didn't Vigil also say it was Reaper proof? And would allow to sway control from Sovereign temporarily even if it was already interfaced with the Citadel? Which it kinda did.

dreman9999 wrote...
2. It was built after the prothean Reper invation.

What?

dreman9999 wrote...
3........They don't look like Husk.

They don't look exactly like human husks, but they definitely have the features like those glowing fiber -like parts that distingish human-husks from normal humans.

dreman9999 wrote...
4.He was on a low powered sleep mode for 50k years coserving the little power it had left.

Still, very suspicious. That it couldn't go into that sleeping mode for a few more weeks.

dreman9999 wrote...
5.....Why even ask?

I'm curious.

dreman9999 wrote...
6....Like?

Like anything. Including the "datafile" was IT. Vigil provided it to you just in case Saren failed.

[Uber Rod]

1. The file you get is not anti-Reaper, it merely takes control of the Citadel control systems. This stops Sovereign from manually opening up the Giant mass relay allowing the Reapers to come through. The fact that Soverign got toasted coming alone shows that it was desperate to try to do the manual opening.



2. Well, the Reapers are not omniscient. They planted the Mass Relays so that Galactic Civilization would follow certain routes and end up at the Citadel. The Citadel would/does make a perfect place to set up a Galactic Capital. Thus all the census records and information on habitable worlds are located in one place. The Reapers show up, kill any resistance and then read the files, learn where the habited worlds are and set about taking them out methodically. Vigil said that the location of Ilos was lost in the initial Reaper attack. Otherwise it would have been wiped out as well.



3 & 4. Don't know.



5. Saren's only concern with ilos was to use the back door so that he could turn off the defenses of the Citadel so that Sovereign could manually open the mass relay for the reapers. It was a desperate move and it failed.



6. The change to the Keepers keeping them from acknowledging the signal sent by Sovereign was brilliant on the part of the Protheans. I don't think there is more to it than that. It gives the current civilizations a bit of breathing room to come up with a plan to defeat the Reapers. Otherwise the Reapers would just have shown up and it would have been game over.

[Iakus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That's what I said. So the Vigil's story is basically this: "The Good Guys dindn't see the Bad Guys coming, and when the sh*t hit the fan some of the Good Guys hid here in the cellar. When the Bad Guys went away, a couple remaining Good Guys went out to look what the f*** happened, and never returned. That's how I, the last Good Guy, know an awful lot about the Bad Guys."

Pretty much, but since Vigil knew the plan the Prothean scientists had in mind, he could make educated guesses at how it went

Even if the Ilos was such a classified place, the mini mass relay "statue" on the Presidium was not. It was right there in the open for every Prothean to see. And, BTW, next to the most imporant Citadel structures. Hence, the Reapers would take interest in it and investigate. Moreover, why didn't the Keepers make any fuss about it?

A Reaper couldn't really fit into the Citadel, so likley they relied on husks or indoctrinated troops to invade it.  THus it's entirely possible it would be overlooked.  Even if it was noticed, what would th Reapers think?  "Stupid meatbags tried to build a Mass Relay?  Hah!  They're not going anywhere with that"

What? All the husks you encounter both in ME1 & 2 are made of humans!

I'm starting to suspect Bioware didn't have a clear idea of what Protheans were supposed to look like.

If Vigil was in sleep mode, how was it able to detect both Shepard's and Saren's party. Moreover, how was it able to distinguish between the indoctrinated and not indoctrinated organics, if the indoctrination hadn't been known to the pre-invasion Protheans, as it claimed later?

"Sleep" may be an innaccurate term.  Vigil most likely shut down most of his major functions, save perhaps some sensors set to wake him if someone approached. 

As to how Vigil could sense indoctrination, unknown.  Given that indoctrination causes mental degradation, it is likely that it leaves sort sort of detectable effect on the brain..  Vigil's sensors may be able to detect that.  Additionally, if Vigil was able to passively monitor communications across Prothean space during the culling (without in turn, being detected) he may have learned about the indocrination process and how to watch for it. 

A lot of speculation here, I know.  But there you go.

As I said, a subtle action, such as indoctrinating the Council little by little over the course of years or decades, should have been Sovereign plan of choice, if the only thing it needed was to access the Citadel Tower.

If failed, it would only then be no choice but to openly attack the Citadel. Even then Saren's search of the Counduit makes little sense, because of, well, the plot of ME1 - it tipped off the Jedi Good Guys, and the plan failed.

It would make more sense to strike at the Citadel at once and unload the ground troops rigth into the Council Chamder to push the "Transfer Control" button... Unless there was some key-word-pass-code to input, which had been stored on Ilos.

It is my belief that Sovereign did not know why the Keepers did not respond to the signal until Saren accessed the beacon on Eden Prime.  Rather, he knew what happened, but not how.  And how to reverse it.  Once that was figured out, and a way to do an end-run around the Keepers was figured out, Saren's cover was blown and could not board the CItadel again. 

In fact, it is also possible that there was information on Ilos that Saren/Sovereign needed on what the scientists did exactly, in order to finalize their plans to open the Citadel Relay. 

Either way, indoctrinating the Council may not have been feasible.  We still don't know exaactly how it works, what it's range is, or even what or how large the part of a Reaper is that causes it.

How old are the Reapers exactly? And what is this about "organic vessel"? The planet description says "genetically engineered", but BioWare uses the word so often in such bullsh*tty ways, that it can really mean anything, including a Reaper, especially after the Super-Baby-Terminator fight. And how is an "organic vessel" supposed to travel in space? Eat some corn planetside, then fart?

OK.

The Reapers are very old big starships constructed with use of organic material.
The Leviathan is a very old big starship constructed with use of organic material.
Conclusion: the Leviathan could be a Reaper.
Sovereign was a Reaper.
Conclusion: the Leviathan could have been Sovereign.

Given that the end of ME 2 has muddied the waters so much concerning what Reapers are made of, anything is possible.  I'm inclined to think the Leviathan is not Sovereign, however. 

Chunks of Sovereign ended up all over the place after the battle.  And while not enough was recovered to prove to the Council that it was a Reaper and not a geth dreadnaught (or rather, they were convinved, then immediately forgot about it) the fact that they were convinced that Sovereign was a ship is pretty clear evidence that what they did find was nonorganic material.  Whatever the need for organic components are in a Reaper, in the end it seems to either be transformed into something inorganic, or a far more substantial portion of the Reaper is not organic.

Of course, after ME 2, who knows how the rules will change in ME 3

Modifié par iakus, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:17 .

[dreman9999]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to Citadel Control come from?

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel?

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council".

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

.

1.It was a NOT an anti-reaper datafile. It was an override file for the citadel's Mass realay function. Unlike the current races, the Protheans at least poked are the stations functions.

Yes, but didn't Vigil also say it was Reaper proof? And would allow to sway control from Sovereign temporarily even if it was already interfaced with the Citadel? Which it kinda did.

dreman9999 wrote...
2. It was built after the prothean Reper invasion.

What?

dreman9999 wrote...
3........They don't look like Husk.

They don't look exactly like human husks, but they definitely have the features like those glowing fiber -like parts that distingish human-husks from normal humans.

dreman9999 wrote...
4.He was on a low powered sleep mode for 50k years coserving the little power it had left.

Still, very suspicious. That it couldn't go into that sleeping mode for a few more weeks.

dreman9999 wrote...
5.....Why even ask?

I'm curious.

dreman9999 wrote...
6....Like?

Like anything. Including the "datafile" was IT. Vigil provided it to you just in case Saren failed.

2. The back dooor was built after the invastion.
3.They don't look like prothean husk eather.
4.Sleep mode mean that a computer is on but is using the lowest functions. It just means it not off but still not fully on.

[dreman9999]

didymos1120 wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Leviathan of Dis is:
A) Organic, not synthetic like a reaper
A obvious farscape reference.

That is all.

It was also:

C) Dead
D) Crashed on the surface of planet
 and:
E) roughly a billion years old

Sovereign definitely wasn't C) or D) when found, and very likely not E) either.  Should also note: it was fully organic. Or close to it at least.  Reapers are still quite obviously machines for the most part.

It's more than 37 billion years old.

[Zulu_DFA]

iakus wrote...

Even if the Ilos was such a classified place, the mini mass relay "statue" on the Presidium was not. It was right there in the open for every Prothean to see. And, BTW, next to the most imporant Citadel structures. Hence, the Reapers would take interest in it and investigate. Moreover, why didn't the Keepers make any fuss about it?

A Reaper couldn't really fit into the Citadel, so likley they relied on husks or indoctrinated troops to invade it. THus it's entirely possible it would be overlooked. Even if it was noticed, what would th Reapers think? "Stupid meatbags tried to build a Mass Relay? Hah! They're not going anywhere with that"

So, the Reapers are inept? Lol!!!

*sigh*

Oh, well...




@dreman9999

1. According to Vigil, the "back door" aka Conduit was built prior to the invasion. Otherwise, "the scientists" would be unable to teleport to the Citadel.
2. It's not 37 billion, it's 37 million. The universe isn't half as old as 37 billion years. However, the figure "37 million" gives us nothing, as the Reapers may still be billions of years old. Sovereign claimed they "have no beginning".
Get your facts straight, man.

And, what does it look like to you?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Iakus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

iakus wrote...

Even if the Ilos was such a classified place, the mini mass relay "statue" on the Presidium was not. It was right there in the open for every Prothean to see. And, BTW, next to the most imporant Citadel structures. Hence, the Reapers would take interest in it and investigate. Moreover, why didn't the Keepers make any fuss about it?

A Reaper couldn't really fit into the Citadel, so likley they relied on husks or indoctrinated troops to invade it. Thus it's entirely possible it would be overlooked. Even if it was noticed, what would th Reapers think? "Stupid meatbags tried to build a Mass Relay? Hah! They're not going anywhere with that"

So, the Reapers are inept? Lol!!!

*sigh*

Oh, well...

Well, they did have the Collectors try to build a new Reaper out of the colonists of the Terminus Systems, hoping no one would notice...

But as to the Conduit, remember:

It's a one way relay, and the one in the Citadel was the receiving end. 

It's way too small to send anything threatening through to the Citadel, assuming the sending relay even existed/ was operational.

So the Reapers disreagarded it as a threat and proceeded to spend the next several centuries culling the Protheans.  The fact that it was never activated during that time would likely reinforce the thought that this really either a failed science experiment or was functional at one time, but the other end was destroyed during the culling.  Either way, what did it matter to the Reapers what the Protheans almost made?  The Reapers are supremely arrogant after all.

[Zulu_DFA]

iakus wrote...

 The Reapers are supremely arrogant after all.

You mean "inept", right?

It's OK to be arrogant, by the way, but not before you comply with the most primitive security protocol: "Don't know what's this stuff's for? Break it!" If they couldn't find the loose end, they had to destroy the "statue". Remove it. Restore the status quo. Just to be sure.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

The statues look more like the true Protheans (as opposed to the Collectors) that we see in Shepard's visions than they do husks. I can see where some might say they resemble husks as well, but I think they are just suppossed to be representations of the Protheans.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:48 .

[didymos1120]

dreman9999 wrote...

It's more than 37 billion years old.

Million.  37 billion years is roughly two and a half times the age of the universe.  And we're also not talking about the derelict reaper, which is what was 37 million years old (at least) and an entirely different thing than the Leviathan of Dis.

[Iakus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

iakus wrote...

 The Reapers are supremely arrogant after all.

You mean "inept", right?

It's OK to be arrogant, by the way, but not before you comply with the most primitive security protocol: "Don't know what's this stuff's for? Break it!" If they couldn't find the loose end, they had to destroy the "statue". Remove it. Restore the status quo. Just to be sure.

po-tay-to, po-tah-to

I think of it as "for want of a nail, the shoe was lost"  The Reapers overlooked what appeared to be a primitive, nonfunctional mass relay prototype, (and that's assuming any Reapers actually saw it, and they didn't just flood the Citadel with husks) and it majorly bit them later on.

Modifié par iakus, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...
5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council".

They improvised. By this point Saren had lost his Spectre status, the Council was mobilizing for a war, and Shepard was hot on his tale. If they'd known what the Conduit was prior to Eden Prime they'd have probably never bothered with the beacons. Saren losing his Spectre status changed everything.

They had to try the "Palpatine" before anything else. So that Saren would not lose his Spectre status over some ghostly artefact... And how did thay know about the Conduit in the first place?

[CaptainZaysh]

I'm currently replaying Mass 1, and I noticed Garrus make a comment about the relay statue. He said "The keepers never paid much attention to that statue. I always thought that was weird." Maybe the Prothean scientists tinkered with them to avoid or ignore it.

[DOYOURLABS]

1. It's not anti-reaper, it just gives control of the citadel. They probably had that before.

3. Husks don't have giant tubes in there mouths.

4. Coincidence, or it was in idle for 50k years , then spent the last of its battery on talking.



That's my two-cents.