363 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Wittand25 wrote...

Ilios was definitely not the protean homeworld. The whole point why it was not attacked

It was attacked.

Wittand25 wrote...

was that it was the newest and most secret research station of the proteans and that there were not even records about it on the citadel.

Only there were records of it all over the Prothean Empire for Liara & other Asari archaeologists to pick up after 50K years and discern that it was once a such a glorious Prothean planet, that is worth considering to and try raise money and search for it despite the primary means of access to it (Mu relay) being unavailable.

Wittand25 wrote...

The whole strategy of the reapers is that they attack the citadel,

Or is it that they attack Earth?

Wittand25 wrote...

which is positioned in a way that it is practically guarantied to become the hub of any species advanced enough to use the mass relays and after capturing the citadel learn everything about the species they are going to reap from the data there.

To learn everything about everyone the Reapers didn't need a Citadel. They only needed the Collectors and their buddy Shadow Broker (to whom even the Citadel races came once in a while to learn each others secrets).

Wittand25 wrote...

There is no way that there would not be data concerning the homeworld of the protheans on the citadel.

Which is entirely peripheral, since the the Reapers don't need a Citadel to hit somebody's homeworld.

Wittand25 wrote...

There are other reasons why earth makes a good target though. There is a mass relay in the sol system and once you have control over that it is virtually impossible for any attacker to enter it.

In the Widow system (where the Citadel is) there is a throng of mass relays, so why the Reapers don't attack it first, especially since they are supposed to be interested in shutting down the entire mass relay network?

Wittand25 wrote...

So considering the main strategy of the reapers ( attacking the main capital of the galaxy and then reap severely weakened enemies) failed, it does not seem that far fetched that they would start reaping the systems one by one

So why don't they start with the one "the galactic capital" is located in? It's not like they can't fly there at FTL if they can fly anywhere at all.

Wittand25 wrote...

and of course because humans are special this puts earth high on the priority list, though I think that they will start with another planet to give Sheppard enough time to start collecting alien support before the grand finale on earth starts.

Right. That's why the Big Ben Sniper was so explicit about how it was a complete surprise to him when the Reapers started falling on his head.

The Smoking Man wrote...

I'm also not sure how Mordin's inference can be any more credible than any of Vigil's inferences.

Because Mordin is a model of a scientist Salarian? Or because he isn't a VI interface popping up at an odd time and wiping itself out immediately after being used?

The Smoking Man wrote...

Also note that the information on what happened with the Protheans when the Reapers starting doing their thing, aside from that they ultimately ended up getting Collector'd, came from Vigil. If Vigil's claims are dismissed, then the Protheans could've just been turned into Collectors and relocated to the Terminator Factory immediately for all anyone knows.

Mordin bases his assertions on his own research studies, not on Vigil's claims. His data comes mainly from the Collector cruiser.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 décembre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Wittand25]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

[It was attacked.

And they missed all the sleeping Protheans

Only there were records of it all over the Prothean Empire for Liara & other Asari archaeologists to pick up after 50K years and discern that it was once a such a glorious Prothean planet, that is worth considering to and try raise money and search for it despite the primary means of access to it (Mu relay) being unavailable.

The whole point was to wait until the reapers were gone. After the reapers returned to dark space there was little reason for the remaining Protheans to keep it secret. In fact don´t Vigil states that they deliberatly left clues for the next civilisations so that their effort would not be in vain even if it did not save them.

Or is it that they attack Earth?

No they go for the citadel in ME1, earth is maybe plan b or c as it is shown in ME2

To learn everything about everyone the Reapers didn't need a Citadel. They only needed the Collectors and their buddy Shadow Broker (to whom even the Citadel races came once in a while to learn each others secrets).

The Collectors have very little diplomatic contact with other species and would never get access to information from them and the Shadow broker wont help with the destruction of the whole galatic civilisation.

Which is entirely peripheral, since the the Reapers don't need a Citadel to hit somebody's homeworld.

So they just fly to the galaxy and check every planet one by one ? The citatel is nothing but a trap that makes reaping more easy for them. If they would not need it why should they even bother and not just install a mass relay where the collectors base was that connects their hibernating place with the galaxy to enter the galaxy

In the Widow system (where the Citadel is) there is a throng of mass relays, so why the Reapers don't attack it first, especially since they are supposed to be interested in shutting down the entire mass relay network?

Because it is better defended, harder to reach and because of the many relays pointing there harder to shut of from the rest of the galaxy once they conquered it ? And it makes a better story if the human homeworld is attacked

So why don't they start with the one "the galactic capital" is located in? It's not like they can't fly there at FTL if they can fly anywhere at all.

same reason as above

Right. That's why the Big Ben Sniper was so explicit about how it was a complete surprise to him when the Reapers started falling on his head.

a.) That is a trailer and not  necessarily part of the game
b.) The trailer is made by a third party, who has as little as possible information regarding ME3
c.) Of course every random guy in London would know everything that happens everywhere else in the universe.

Modifié par Wittand25, 29 décembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Wittand25 wrote...

And they missed all the sleeping Protheans

Nope. They got everyone.

Wittand25 wrote...

The whole point was to wait until the reapers were gone. After the reapers returned to dark space there was little reason for the remaining Protheans to keep it secret. In fact don´t Vigil states that they deliberatly left clues for the next civilisations so that their effort would not be in vain even if it did not save them.

In the Beacon network, and they were unintelligible without the Cypher. So when did Liara had a Beacon vision together with the Cypher? Oh, right, she melded with Shepard. Who hadn't had a clue about the Vigil's clue up until that moment. And Liara had already known about Ilos very well before. Compute.

Wittand25 wrote...

No they go for the citadel in ME1, earth is maybe plan b or c as it is shown in ME2

Or D or E or W...

Wittand25 wrote...

The Collectors have very little diplomatic contact with other species and would never get access to information from them and the Shadow broker wont help with the destruction of the whole galatic civilisation.

Why wouldn't he? Destruction of the Galaxy is a good business. As shown in Redemption where the Shadow Broker was about to supply the Collectors with a Commander Sheaprd.

Wittand25 wrote...

So they just fly to the galaxy and check every planet one by one ? The citatel is nothing but a trap that makes reaping more easy for them. If they would not need it why should they even bother and not just install a mass relay where the collectors base was that connects their hibernating place with the galaxy to enter the galaxy

Again, tell me: If the Citadel has such a special place it the Reapers' plan of campaign (crippling the Galaxy's communications in a sudden blow), and they can travel to any point of their choosing in the Galaxy in just a fey years, why do they drop out of the FTL around London, and not around the Citadel?

Wittand25 wrote...

Because it is better defended, harder to reach and because of the many relays pointing there harder to shut of from the rest of the galaxy once they conquered it ? And it makes a better story if the human homeworld is attacked

One Reaper managed to tear up half of the 5th Fleet while having sex with the Citadel. Are you telling me there can be a force in the Galaxy that would match a couple dozen of Reapers?

As for the better stories, those are made by everything in them having an in-story reason and explanation rather than plot holes wider than the story itself.

Wittand25 wrote...

same reason as above

The Reapers are idiots, right?

Wittand25 wrote...

a.) That is a trailer and not  necessarily part of the game
b.) The trailer is made by a third party, who has as little as possible information regarding ME3
c.) Of course every random guy in London would know everything that happens everywhere else in the universe.

a.) Doesn't preclude it from containing spoilers.
b.) The text for the trailer is undoubtedly supplied by the BioWare writers.
c.) Not anywhere in the universe, but at the hub of the universe, which the Citadel is.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 décembre 2010 - 12:37 .

[Wittand25]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Nope. They got everyone.

Exept those who went back to the citadel after the reapers were gone. You know the ones who build the conduit and manipulated the Keepers and so made it possible that the whole plot of ME1 actually happened.

In the Beacon network, and they were unintelligible without the Cypher. So when did Liara had a Beacon vision together with the Cypher? Oh, right, she melded with Shepard. Who hadn't had a clue about the Vigil's clue up until that moment. And Liara had already known about Ilos very well before. Compute.

Yes it is quite unforgivable that they did not use common English or made sure that every idiot who stumbled across one without prior knowledge would understand it immediately. And again Ilios was no secret after the reaper attack but it was before otherwise the reapers surely would have seen to it that the conduit is destroyed and the Keepers function as they should..

Why wouldn't he? Destruction of the Galaxy is a good business. As shown in Redemption where the Shadow Broker was about to supply the Collectors with a Commander Sheaprd.

Being part of the galaxy this would be quite suicidal. And selling one quite unimportant person or the whole galaxy including yourself is quite a difference.

Again, tell me: If the Citadel has such a special place it the Reapers' plan of campaign (crippling the Galaxy's communications in a sudden blow), and they can travel to any point of their choosing in the Galaxy in just a fey years, why do they drop out of the FTL around London, and not around the Citadel?

Because even with the help of the Geth and considering that the citadel was hit by surprise the reaper trying to take it back failed as soon as the arms opened and it was exposed to the defenders. And all of them traveling to a place as central as the Citadel would mean that they would be discovered and would have to face the fully prepared galaxy forces. And that is not a risk lightly taken.

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

I'm also not sure how Mordin's inference can be any more credible than any of Vigil's inferences.

Because Mordin is a model of a scientist Salarian? Or because he isn't a VI interface popping up at an odd time and wiping itself out immediately after being used?

The Smoking Man wrote...

Also note that the information on what happened with the Protheans when the Reapers starting doing their thing, aside from that they ultimately ended up getting Collector'd, came from Vigil. If Vigil's claims are dismissed, then the Protheans could've just been turned into Collectors and relocated to the Terminator Factory immediately for all anyone knows.

Mordin bases his assertions on his own research studies, not on Vigil's claims. His data comes mainly from the Collector cruiser.

The only information known to have been collected from the Collector "cruiser" was the Collector-Prothean connection (not in the form of a blatant "oh hai, we used to be Protheans" written in their database, but their genetic code, which was used to establish the connection) and that the Omega-4 Relay responds in a special way to a Reaper IFF signal. In other words, there isn't enough data to support your claim that he got it from the Collector cruiser. And the only other source that the information about the Protheans' fate came from is your beloved Vigil.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:36 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Wittand25 wrote...

Exept those who went back to the citadel after the reapers were gone. You know the ones who build the conduit and manipulated the Keepers and so made it possible that the whole plot of ME1 actually happened.

Nobody went to the Citadel. Nobody manipulated the Keepers. And the Conduit was built prior to the invasion even by Vigil's own account. The plot of ME1 was Shepard pursuing Saren, who went for what was an inexplicable roundabout if Vigil's tale was to be taken at face value.

Wittand25 wrote...

Yes it is quite unforgivable that they did not use common English or made sure that every idiot who stumbled across one without prior knowledge would understand it immediately. And again Ilios was no secret after the reaper attack but it was before otherwise the reapers surely would have seen to it that the conduit is destroyed and the Keepers function as they should..

Ilos wasn't secret, the Reapers went there, indoctrinated everyone, made sure the Conduit was working, installed Vigil to keep vigil, and let the Keepers on the Citadel keep it.

Wittand25 wrote...

Being part of the galaxy this would be quite suicidal. And selling one quite unimportant person or the whole galaxy including yourself is quite a difference.

Knowing like the Shadow Broker who the Collectors were, and still dealing with them, leaves not very much room for interpretation.

Wittand25 wrote...

Because even with the help of the Geth and considering that the citadel was hit by surprise the reaper trying to take it back failed as soon as the arms opened and it was exposed to the defenders. And all of them traveling to a place as central as the Citadel would mean that they would be discovered and would have to face the fully prepared galaxy forces. And that is not a risk lightly taken.

Travelling at FTL speeds precludes the Reapers from being discovered and guarantees them the element of surprise around the Citadel, just like around London.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 décembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Wittand25]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That would make the whole reaper strategy nothing but a Xanados roulette, depending on way to many thing going right in exactly the right way. And it does not explain why Sovereign did not know about the Keepers or the Conduit. It needed Saren to investigate the beacon, get the cipher from the thorian to understand it and the Rachini queen to even learn the past position of the Mu relay. If the reapers knew about Ilios before the whole plot of ME1 becomes completly pointless and if the reapers wanted something uploaded on the citadel computer why did not Saren do it while he manipulated the citatel controlls minutes before Sheppard.

[supakillaii]

Ilos wasn't secret, the Reapers went there, indoctrinated everyone, made sure the Conduit was working, installed Vigil to keep vigil, and let the Keepers on the Citadel keep it.

Hahahaha

Zulu_DFA wrote...

A quick theory on the Reapers' origins I've just come up with:

There was an ancient hyperadvanced civilization. But it was divided into two parties: the first wanted to remain organic, and the second wanted to become cybernetic. The first party built the Citadel (an ark ship), the second party built the Omega (a Reaper factory), and turned themsleves into Reapers. Then the second party (now, the Reapers) wiped out the first party. Or the first party somehow turned into the "beings of light". For some reason the Reapers can't destroy the Citadel (perhaps that reason is that they need it to keep the "beings of light" passive or something).

Load of bollocks even without the fact that Omega was made after Protheans were gone.

Modifié par supakillaii, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:46 .

[GnawLF]

First, Omega was made by the Reapers. Second, just because there is a mini Mass Relay conduit on Citadel does not mean that it will attract Reaper's attention. You are talking about 2 kilometer long machines here, even if they wanted to the mini conduit probably would not be able to relay that much mass to Ilos. Third, read about First Contact War, it was started by Turians who fired on Human explorere trying to activate Relay 341 or something. That means that Relays can be rendered inactive, so all that Protheans had to do is render the conduit on Ilos inactive.

Fourth, from all the ancient ruins of Protheans spread all over the galaxy, we can safely deduce that Reapers do not care about the remains and ruins of other civilization as long as thier own existance is not revealed. This is further proven by the Mass Accelerator that was able to scar Klendagon after ciritically damagin a Reaper, same Reaper Sheppard gets the Reaper IFF from. During the mission breifing the Illusive Man notes that his teams found both the Reaper and the weapon. This, combined with all the chaches of Prothean tehcnology found around the galaxy shows that Reapers do not consider those technologies a threat to their cycle.

And lats but not least, Sovereign would not be able to indocrinate the Citadel council. Such a move would not only be risky but would almost certainly meet with failure. Note, how the Cerberus researches began getting headaches and sharing memories, do you not think that millions of Citadel inhabitants would notice this symptom? Not to mention the fact that if a ship of Sovereign's size arrives in Citadel space it would cause massive disruption and distrust among the council members.

[Zulu_DFA]

GnawLF wrote...
Sovereign would not be able to indocrinate the Citadel council. Such a move would not only be risky but would almost certainly meet with failure. Note, how the Cerberus researches began getting headaches and sharing memories, do you not think that millions of Citadel inhabitants would notice this symptom? Not to mention the fact that if a ship of Sovereign's size arrives in Citadel space it would cause massive disruption and distrust among the council members.

It wouldn't look like Benezia and her disciples experienced a lot of headaches while Sovereign was indoctrinating them. Saren retained a lot of free will but fell for Sovereign's cause nonetheless. Sovereign could at least give it a try before going on with blowing up entire colonies.

[supakillaii]

GnawLF wrote...

First, Omega was made by the Reapers.  

Actually no

Originally an asteroid rich in element zero, Omega was briefly mined by the Protheans, who eventually abandoned it due to its thick, impenetrable crust. Thousands of years later, nature did what even the Protheans could not: a collision with another asteroid broke Omega in half, exposing its trove of element zero for easy mining.A rush ensued as corporations and private individuals tried to strike it rich on Omega, and thieves and outlaws followed in their wake. As space became tight, construction of processing facilities extended vertically from the asteroid, creating Omega's jellyfish-like silhouette. To prevent future collisions, the station is ringed with enormous mass effect field generators that redirect incoming debris.Today, Omega is a major hub of narcotics, weapons, and eezo trafficking without even a pretense of civilian government or military control. Only mercenary groups have been able to instill a limited order; the most ruthless is an asari syndicate run by the notorious Aria T'Loak.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu, this many not too on-topic, but it's pretty close. I'd just like to know, how did you figure that the Leviathan of Dis was Sovereign? I actually think that's the most likely explanation for it yet.

[Zulu_DFA]

supakillaii wrote...

GnawLF wrote...

First, Omega was made by the Reapers.  

Actually no

Originally an asteroid rich in element zero, Omega was briefly mined by the Protheans, who eventually abandoned it due to its thick, impenetrable crust. Thousands of years later, nature did what even the Protheans could not: a collision with another asteroid broke Omega in half, exposing its trove of element zero for easy mining.A rush ensued as corporations and private individuals tried to strike it rich on Omega, and thieves and outlaws followed in their wake. As space became tight, construction of processing facilities extended vertically from the asteroid, creating Omega's jellyfish-like silhouette. To prevent future collisions, the station is ringed with enormous mass effect field generators that redirect incoming debris.Today, Omega is a major hub of narcotics, weapons, and eezo trafficking without even a pretense ofcivilian government or military control. Only mercenary  groups have been able to instill a limited order; the most ruthless is an asari syndicate run by the notorious Aria T'Loak.

Actually, no.

This is how Drew Karpyshyn introduced the Omega in Ascension, Ch. 4.:

"It's exact age was unknown, although everyone agreed the station had originally been built by the Protheans before they dissapeared. However, nobody agree on which had been the first species to resettle it once the Protheans were mysterirously wiped out."

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu, this many not too on-topic, but it's pretty close. I'd just like to know, how did you figure that the Leviathan of Dis was Sovereign? I actually think that's the most likely explanation for it yet.

I am not 100% sure on this, but the timing of the alleged retrieval of the Leviathan by the Batarians and the Shu Qian - Sanders' research on Soverereign in juction with the Batarians indicates possible connection. In other words, the patterns are there, buried in the data.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[supakillaii]

Last I checked, the Codex takes priority over Books in Canonicity

[Zulu_DFA]

supakillaii wrote...

Last I checked, the Codex takes priority over Books in Canonicity

Last I checked, the Codex still states that the Citadel and the Mass Relays were built by the Protheans.

Plus, there is more, from the more recent, post-ME2 book.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 décembre 2010 - 09:19 .

[supakillaii]

Yeah, Citadel and Mass Relays, but Omega was built after Protheans were gone.

[Zulu_DFA]

supakillaii wrote...

Yeah, Citadel and Mass Relays, but Omega was built after Protheans were gone.

Whatever you say, pal, but be advised: brace for a big surprize in ME3.

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

Yeah, Citadel and Mass Relays, but Omega was built after Protheans were gone.

Whatever you say, pal, but be advised: brace for a big surprize in ME3.

I can't read that "surprize" without imaging it in Jacob's voice, and with emphasis on the "i". After all, it's a heavy risk, but the surpriiize.

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

Yeah, Citadel and Mass Relays, but Omega was built after Protheans were gone.

Whatever you say, pal, but be advised: brace for a big surprize in ME3.

I can't read that "surprize" without imaging it in Jacob's voice, and with emphasis on the "i". After all, it's a heavy risk, but the surpriiize.

ROFL

[supakillaii]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

Yeah, Citadel and Mass Relays, but Omega was built after Protheans were gone.

Whatever you say, pal, but be advised: brace for a big surprize in ME3.

Go read the in-game Codex Entry for the place.

[Zulu_DFA]

supakillaii wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

Yeah, Citadel and Mass Relays, but Omega was built after Protheans were gone.

Whatever you say, pal, but be advised: brace for a big surprize in ME3.

Go read the in-game Codex Entry for the place.

Brace for a big surpriiize in ME3.

[Fixers0]

I still haven't seen the point of making all those complex theory's what makes you so intent on bringing the whole story behind mass effect?

I thought that the exsiting story was executed pretty well, in Mass effect 1 we discover the whole Reaper plot and their cycle of destructen we stop it and then in Mass effect 2 we foil their plan B and then make further preparations, and in Mass effect 3 they will return.

But now we have someone who brings up a complex theory about how thinks work different, you know i like to keept things clear and simple not a story and changes every 5 minutes.

[Dr. Catt]

Fixers0 wrote...

I still haven't seen the point of making all those complex theory's what makes you so intent on bringing the whole story behind mass effect?
I thought that the exsiting story was executed pretty well, in Mass effect 1 we discover the whole Reaper plot and their cycle of destructen we stop it and then in Mass effect 2 we foil their plan B and then make further preparations, and in Mass effect 3 they will return.
But now we have someone who brings up a complex theory about how thinks work different, you know i like to keept things clear and simple not a story and changes every 5 minutes.

I read the first few pages of this thread where the OP explained his theory which was shown to be ridiculous in about four posts. I am impressed by his tenacity to see he's still plugging away on page 10.

You're right: ME1 and 2's plots were broadly speaking coherent and simple (apart form the whole Human genetic diversity bungle which really annoyed me as someone whith a background in population genetics and Human evolution).

The OP seems intent on ignoring parsimony and is insistent that Vigil is lying to Shepard. There is no evidence of this at all. We can assume things all we like but the story as written by the writers is clear.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

I thought that the exsiting story was executed pretty well, in Mass effect 1 we discover the whole Reaper plot and their cycle of destructen we stop it and then in Mass effect 2 we foil their plan B and then make further preparations, and in Mass effect 3 they will return.

You forgot about the Protheans. So let me sum up that for you again:

The Reapers kill everybody every 50 thousand years and keep doing it for billions of years. They are sooooo powerful and soooo thorough. Then their IQ suddendy drops to zero, and their whole uber-perfect Plan A (that have worked for billions of years) gets trashed by a dozen scientists and one computer. But they immediately come up with Plan B (Rachni), which gets trashed by the Council, then with Plan C (Saren+Geth), which gets trashed by Shepard, then Plan D (Collectors), again trashed by Shepard. Nonetheless, they've got Plan E! Rush in en masse and kill everybody!!!

No wonder the Turian Councillor does not believe such idiocy is possible.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 décembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Dr. Catt wrote...

(apart form the whole Human genetic diversity bungle which really annoyed me as someone whith a background in population genetics and Human evolution).

As someone with a background in population genetics and human evolution you should realize that Mordin speaks of relative diversity, compared to entirely fictious races of aliens, which allows to simply handwave the whole issue: "All alien races must be near clones", which is not so implausible after looking at their models in the game.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:59 .