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[SajPl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SajPl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So was Captain Bailey lying to the player, when he said that there are "protein vats" on the Citadel, that sustain not only the Keeper population but thousands of low-life residents of the wards?

Could you please say whern we can hear that from Bailey ,is it the dialogue about the duct-rats or a standard dialogue option?
I dont remember Bailey saing that the protein vats sustain thousands of low-life citizens.

Well, I may be mixing some dialogue here. I clearly remember Bailey mentioning the vats in the "duct-rat" branch of his dialogue. And I remember that it is said that the poor can feed from them. It may be the Quarian or even Avina on the "Level 26".

The point is, Vigil's assertion that the "12 scientists" would die of starvation is in contradiction with the fact Citadel maintains automated recycling of nutrient paste suitable to consumption by any organics.

And here I believe I found an error in your theory (no offence) - I've done both quests recently and
Bailey only says that duct rats may fall to the keepers protein vats ;
the Quarian on pilgrimage accused of pickpocketing says she eats nutrient paste in the shelter.
In my opinion the protein in the vats isn't the same thing as the nutrient paste.
I think that the vats are used only tu support the keepers wheras the nutrient paste is something used to feed those who cant afford their own food.
This would confirm Vigils theory - the protein in the vats isnt necesairly  edible by anything besides the keepers and the 12 scientists died of hunger and got thrown into those vats themselves - that's why theres no evidence of them being there,

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Shepard's vision was also useless, if not for Saren and Sovereign's activities, that put it in some context.

You find half of a page that has "...ING" written. It's old and destroyed.
You can't blame the Protheans that the "WARN" was missing because of old age and the paper being damaged.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Vigil itself doesn't tell you anything substantial. It says the vision was a warning. Yet it's doesn't contain the really important information. Vigil says the Conduit is "the key", yet it doesn't say why the Citadel is useless to Sovereign without this "key". And Vigil makes a lot of "assumption", that have been proven wrong since ME1.

The Conduit was the Key for the Protheans to get to the Citadel without the Reapers knowing, then it was the key for Saren to get onto the Citadel to give Sovereign access and finally it was the key for Shepard to follow Saren. The Citadel wasn't responding to Sovereign's signal so it was uselless, so he used the key-Conduit to get his agent there to grant him access.

Modifié par SajPl, 03 février 2011 - 12:33 .

[The Unfallen]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

Next thing he will be saying the "true" Geth are in on it too.

No, really what is hilarious is how none of this will end up in ME 3. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Mr. Bastard, I have to regretfully inform you, that you are wrong on both accounts. I will not be saying the True Geth are "in on it too", and something of this will definitely end up in ME3. Like, you know, the invasion of Earth bypassing the Citadel and the Omega playing a role in the Reaper plans.

The Reapers attack the homeworlds of every sentient species that poses a threat to the Reapers. Thessia and Palaven are being attacked alongside Earth as well I am sure.

[CapShepard]

LOL, Vigil is lying? The reapers are not in dark space? Sovereign screwing up Harbinger's plan? It doesn't make any sense, really.



Why Sovereign would be screwing up with Harbinger's plan? He said: "We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." He's not screwing up with the Harbinger's/reaper's plan at all. Clearly, he's trying to bring the reapers back.

[Zulu_DFA]

SajPl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SajPl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So was Captain Bailey lying to the player, when he said that there are "protein vats" on the Citadel, that sustain not only the Keeper population but thousands of low-life residents of the wards?

Could you please say whern we can hear that from Bailey ,is it the dialogue about the duct-rats or a standard dialogue option?
I dont remember Bailey saing that the protein vats sustain thousands of low-life citizens.

Well, I may be mixing some dialogue here. I clearly remember Bailey mentioning the vats in the "duct-rat" branch of his dialogue. And I remember that it is said that the poor can feed from them. It may be the Quarian or even Avina on the "Level 26".

The point is, Vigil's assertion that the "12 scientists" would die of starvation is in contradiction with the fact Citadel maintains automated recycling of nutrient paste suitable to consumption by any organics.

And here I believe I found an error in your theory (no offence) - I've done both quests recently and
Bailey only says that duct rats may fall to the keepers protein vats ;
the Quarian on pilgrimage accused of pickpocketing says she eats nutrient paste in the shelter.
In my opinion the protein in the vats isn't the same thing as the nutrient paste.
I think that the vats are used only tu support the keepers wheras the nutrient paste is something used to feed those who cant afford their own food.
This would confirm Vigils theory - the protein in the vats isnt necesairly  edible by anything besides the keepers and the 12 scientists died of hunger and got thrown into those vats themselves - that's why theres no evidence of them being there,

This is from the Codex, "Citadel: Foundations" article:

"The station's recycling systems are located in the Foundations. These manufacture a variety of artificial organic pastes that can be eaten for sustenance. They are free and nutritious but nearly tasteless and of unpleasant texture. Poorer residents quickly become adept at dressing up this bland fare with sauces and spices while imported foodstuffs are a popular luxury of the wealthy."

So decide for yourself. However, it's just one point of inconsistensy in Vigil's tale. I had overlooked it for quite long myself, until another person pointed it out. Other inconsistencies are plentiful enough, so that my theory can hold even without this protein vats stuff.

SajPl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Shepard's vision was also useless, if not for Saren and Sovereign's activities, that put it in some context.

You find half of a page that has "...ING" written. It's old and destroyed.
You can't blame the Protheans that the "WARN" was missing because of old age and the paper being damaged.

And so it boils down to you relying on a strange thing in a strange place to tell you what it is. Vigil's tale is not verified by any supplementary evidence, but it was hard to see any contradictory evidence against it at the time. But  with more and more data comin in (especially the meta-game info), there are more ad more "plot holes" punched in that cool story. The latest one being: Vigil said that Ilos was top secret and was in the vision, only because the "12 scientists" put it there, but in TIM's vision there is the Human home star system, presented in the same way as Ilos in the Prothean vision (a quick compilation of planets givng way to a solar eclipse).

SajPl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Vigil itself doesn't tell you anything substantial. It says the vision was a warning. Yet it's doesn't contain the really important information. Vigil says the Conduit is "the key", yet it doesn't say why the Citadel is useless to Sovereign without this "key". And Vigil makes a lot of "assumption", that have been proven wrong since ME1.

The Conduit was the Key for the Protheans to get to the Citadel without the Reapers knowing, then it was the key for Saren to get onto the Citadel to give Sovereign access and finally it was the key for Shepard to follow Saren. The Citadel wasn't responding to Sovereign's signal so it was uselless, so he used the key-Conduit to get his agent there to grant him access.

The Conduit is not a key just by itself. It is a conduit. A path, a road, a tunnel in space-time, you call it. But Sovereign's agents were well respected members of the Citadel society, who didn't need to sneak on the station.

This is going in circles.

CapShepard wrote...

LOL, Vigil is lying? The reapers are not in dark space? Sovereign screwing up Harbinger's plan? It doesn't make any sense, really.

Why Sovereign would be screwing up with Harbinger's plan? He said: "We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." He's not screwing up with the Harbinger's/reaper's plan at all. Clearly, he's trying to bring the reapers back.

Sovereign wasn't a good guy, trying to save everyone. It was a bad guy that wanted to double-cross other bad guys.

BTW, this kind of twist was pulled with the Zerg Overmind is SC2, after Brian Kindregan left BioWare to join Blizzard. And he openly says in this interview, that he got some ideas from "other games"...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 février 2011 - 04:47 .

[The Unfallen]

CapShepard wrote...

LOL, Vigil is lying? The reapers are not in dark space? Sovereign screwing up Harbinger's plan? It doesn't make any sense, really.

Why Sovereign would be screwing up with Harbinger's plan? He said: "We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." He's not screwing up with the Harbinger's/reaper's plan at all. Clearly, he's trying to bring the reapers back.

Now that I think of it, this post is making this topic is beginning to seem really idiotic, no offense, Zulu.

+1 to Shepard.

[Zulu_DFA]

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

Now that I think of it, this post is making this topic is beginning to seem really idiotic, no offense, Zulu.

Then why are you still here?

[JamieCOTC]

Just stumbled on this thread

For the love of ...

The only lie is the cake as the cake is a lie. Lying in literature (books, movies, games) is an art form few can accomplish well. Vigil was not lying.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 03 février 2011 - 04:58 .

[Zulu_DFA]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Just stumbled on this thread

For the love of ...

The only lie is the cake as the cake is a lie. Lying in literature (books, movies, games) is an art form few can accomplish well. Vigil was not lying.

The cake was true.

[SajPl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is from the Codex, "Citadel: Foundations" article:

"The station's recycling systems are located in the Foundations. These manufacture a variety of artificial organic pastes that can be eaten for sustenance. They are free and nutritious but nearly tasteless and of unpleasant texture. Poorer residents quickly become adept at dressing up this bland fare with sauces and spices while imported foodstuffs are a popular luxury of the wealthy."

Vigil was just a VI, he may have made a wrong guess. The 12 Protheans may have lived happily ever after on the Citadel eating nutrient paste and then died of old age and be recycled into nutrient paste themselves.
That still isn't enough proof that he is lying.

[Zulu_DFA]

SajPl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is from the Codex, "Citadel: Foundations" article:

"The station's recycling systems are located in the Foundations. These manufacture a variety of artificial organic pastes that can be eaten for sustenance. They are free and nutritious but nearly tasteless and of unpleasant texture. Poorer residents quickly become adept at dressing up this bland fare with sauces and spices while imported foodstuffs are a popular luxury of the wealthy."

Vigil was just a VI, he may have made a wrong guess. The 12 Protheans may have lived happily ever after on the Citadel eating nutrient paste and then died of old age and be recycled into nutrient paste themselves.
That still isn't enough proof that he is lying.

What's about all the rest of the proof?

• Citadel as dark space gate, which, if locked, traps the Reapers - WRONG, the Reapers can travel without it.
• Citadel as primary target, to disable the mass relay network - WRONG, the Reapers go for Earth first.
• Sovereign as a "sentinel" - WRONG, the Collectors were "sentinels" and had enough capability to send a "signal" to the Keepers.
• The "Ilos" part of the vision as an instruction from the "12 scientists" - WRONG, TIM has a similar vision of Earth due to merely interacting with an autonomous Reaper device.
• Vigil's saying that Ilos was secret and got spared is in contradiction with the fact that it's widely known among the current generation archaeologists. The only thing that prevented them from going there is the displacement of the Mu Relay, which occured long after the Prothean extinction. Also planetary descriptions in the Refuge system indicate that even uninhabitable planets had some infrastructure in their orbit. Ilos itself had big cities that lay in ruins now.
• Vigil does not explain how the heck does it know so much about the Reapers despite the fact that "the facility went dark" as soon as the invasion began.
• However, Vigil says nothing about the Omega, despite it being a Reaper-built "dark twin" to the Citadel.
• Chorban's research confirms the Keepers "register" some cyclic events every 50K years, but doesn't confirm that they have been "tinkered" with.
• Vigil does not explain what's so important about going to the Citadel via the Conduit, that Sovereign and Saren could not accomplish elsewise.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 février 2011 - 07:41 .

[Fixers0]

Quick edit.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SajPl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is from the Codex, "Citadel: Foundations" article:

"The station's recycling systems are located in the Foundations. These manufacture a variety of artificial organic pastes that can be eaten for sustenance. They are free and nutritious but nearly tasteless and of unpleasant texture. Poorer residents quickly become adept at dressing up this bland fare with sauces and spices while imported foodstuffs are a popular luxury of the wealthy."

Vigil was just a VI, he may have made a wrong guess. The 12 Protheans may have lived happily ever after on the Citadel eating nutrient paste and then died of old age and be recycled into nutrient paste themselves.
That still isn't enough proof that he is lying.

What's about all the rest of the proof?

• Citadel as dark space gate, which, if locked, traps the Reapers - WRONG, the Reapers can travel without it. Who said that, as far as i know we have only seen a video of the Reapers attacking earth nothing that exludes the Citadel Relay
• Citadel as primary target, to disable the mass relay network - WRONG, the Reapers go for Earth first.               Just look at point one, nothing excluded
• Sovereign as a "sentinel" - WRONG, the Collectors were "sentinels" and had enough capability to send a "signal" to the Keepers.                                                                                                                                                                Not true the Collectors dated back from the Last Cycle, Sovereign has been doing this for much longer, Also they didn't send any kind of message to the Keepers, besides the were also a retconned into the story.
• The "Ilos" part of the vision as an instruction from the "12 scientists" - WRONG, TIM has a similar vision of Earth due to merely interacting with an autonomous Reaper device.                                                                                                I don't Care about what is stated in those stupid comic books or novels, the only thing that matters is the game.
• Vigil's saying that Ilos was secret and got spared is in contradiction with the fact that it's widely known among the current generation archaeologists. The only thing that prevented them from going there is the displacement of the Mu Relay, which occured long after the Prothean extinction. Also planetary descriptions in the Refuge system indicate that even uninhabitable planets had some infrastructure in their orbit. Ilos itself had big cities that lay in ruins now.                                                                                                                                                                               
• Vigil does not explain how the heck does it know so much about the Reapers despite the fact that "the facility went dark" as soon as the invasion began.                                                                                                                             The Surviving scientists programmed him with the Information that they have discovered.
• However, Vigil says nothing about the Omega, despite it being a Reaper-built "dark twin" to the Citadel                  Because Omega hadn't be created back then same with the Collectors.
• Chorban's research confirms the Keepers "register" some cyclic events every 50K years, but doesn't confirm that they have been "tinkered" with.                                                                                                                                                 So What that doesn't confirm or deny anything.
• Vigil does not explain what's so important about going to the Citadel via the Conduit, that Sovereign andSarencould not accomplish elsewise.                                                                                                                                 Because Saren needed to edit the Master control panel so that the Keepers would accept sovereign Signal.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...
Who said that, as far as i know we have only seen a video of the Reapers attacking earth nothing that exludes the Citadel Relay
Common wisdom suggests that while "the Earth is burning", Shepard will travel all over the Galaxy pretty much unrestricted, as the core gameplay needs to be left in place.

Not true the Collectors dated back from the Last Cycle, Sovereign has been doing this for much longer, Also they didn't send any kind of message to the Keepers, besides the were also a retconned into the story.
The only thing retconned into ME2 were the thermal clips. And there was no point for the Reapers to alter the cycle by creating the Collectors, their base, etc., if the Sovereign scheme had worked for the previous thousand rounds of the cycle. Therefore, it only makes sense that there always was a base in the Galactic core, crewed by the last cycle's starring race.

don't Care about what is stated in those stupid comic books or novels, the only thing that matters is the game.
Good for you. Ignorance is bliss.

Surviving scientists programmed him with the Information that they have discovered.
What information could they discover on Ilos if the Reapers never came there? What information could they discover in the rest of the Galaxy, if everything was already gone, and it was already pretty much in the state the modern archaeologists have to work with (and anyway the "12" never reported back after they left Ilos)?

 Because Omega hadn't be created back then same with the Collectors.
Like I said, ignorance is bliss. Omega is ancient and had existed for many rounds of the cycle (if not for all of them).

Because Saren needed to edit the Master control panel so that the Keepers would accept sovereign Signal.
He either could do it without going to Ilos, or Vigil "forgot" to tell you, what was it Saren needed on Ilos for that task.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 février 2011 - 08:58 .

[Fixers0]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Common wisdom suggests that while "the Earth is burning", Shepard will travel all over the Galaxy pretty much unrestricted, as the core gameplay needs to be left in place.
Oh, since you can't be proved wrong, it must be correct.

The only thing retconned into ME2 were the thermal clips. And there was no point for the Reapers to alter the cycle by creating the Collectors, their base, etc., if the Sovereign scheme had worked for the previous thousand rounds of the cycle. Therefore, it only makes sense that there always was a base in the Galactic core, crewed by the last cycle's starring race.
That's because the Collectors were retconned into the story of ME1 or at the very least poorly intergrated,  lack of vision, they could't just continue with everything they had with ME1 it would be to boring, so Bioware decided to add the Collectors, Interesting Idea, but poorly Executed 

Good for you. Ignorance is bliss.
When you are making a theory for Star wars you're not gonna look at every comic book, novel or Spin off that Has been created.


 Because Omega hadn't be created back then same with the Collectors.
Like I said, ignorance is bliss. Omega is ancient and had existed for many rounds of the cycle (if not for all of them).
I mean From a Developer perspective, the mayby had some drafts for Collectors,Omega and stuff, but nothing that could be implented allready, This also leads me to think that ME2 was more of a reboot then a  sequal and that ME1'sdid more harm then good to This.

He either could do it without going to Ilos, or Vigil "forgot" to tell you, what was it Saren needed on Ilos for that task.
The Conduit could give him the element of surprise and a way to bypass security.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Modifié par Fixers0, 03 février 2011 - 09:33 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

The Conduit could give him the element of surprise and a way to bypass security.

But he sacrificed the element of surprize  already, when he went out of his way to find a lost planet.

Besides, element of surprize in not a "key". It's a tactical advantage, which can be compensated for with superior numbers, firepowers, ruses, etc.

[Iwillbeback]

I don't really like anyone in this thread.
If Earth is attacked first then we would be travelling fast around the galaxy and 100 of millions died in the time it took us to find a way to sex up the reapers.


Lol i have an amazing idea, f you Zulu.

Earth gets attacked first.
And every second that passes in the game more people die as you travel to defeat the reapers.

5 million for every hour you play, the closer it gets to the end the faster they die.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 03 février 2011 - 09:55 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Iwillbeback wrote...

I don't really like anyone in this thread.
If Earth is attacked first then we would be travelling fast around the galaxy and 100 of millions died in the time it took us to find a way to sex up the reapers.


Lol i have an amazing idea, f you Zulu.

Earth gets attacked first.
And every second that passes in the game more people die as you travel to defeat the reapers.

5 million for every hour you play, the closer it gets to the end the faster they die.

As much is quite openly hinted at in the teaser.

But there must be something more to it. Harbinger promised to turn our worlds into laboratories, so the Reapers will probably have a more elaborate agenda on the Earth than just exterminating the population. Which will become the major revelation of ME3, alluding to their ultimate goals.

Right now I think that the story may go full circle and conclude the Shepard-Saren parallel, like this:

Shepard discovers that the Citadel can be used against the Reapers, but nobody is going to believe him. So the final mission will be to go to Earth, find another "key", break through to the new Conduit freshly built by the indoctrianted Humans, use it to go to the Citadel and launch an attack on it, with the help your allies: Geth, Quarians, Krogans, Cerberus, and (ME3 surprise!) Batarians. One of the final scenes may be Shepard standing by the Control console in the Council Chamber and the VS / Admiral Anderson / whoever is in pursuit of Shepard questioning his sanity. One of the options on the wheel: "shoot self in the head".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 février 2011 - 10:25 .

[Whatever42]

The trailer may have Earth in it but the ME2 cinematic trailer had Horizon in it, which is not at the beginning of the game. We don't know the plot progression yet in ME3. That even could be like the crew abduction in ME2, people may start dying but you can jump pretty quickly into the final mission.

[CapShepard]

Man, you need to understand one thing:



the Reapers are not trapped forever in dark space, they will eventually reach at the galaxy, but we wont know how until the release of ME3. Shepard knows that. (In the flotilla, he said that the reapers are coming and he's going to need the help of the quarians)





I think the Citadel it's a primary target, but now they can't launch a surprise attack.



Disable the mass relay network is not the only reason that the reapers would attack the Citadel. They attack the Citadel because that station has information about everything in the known space.

[Zulu_DFA]

CapShepard wrote...

Man, you need to understand one thing:

the Reapers are not trapped forever in dark space, they will eventually reach at the galaxy, but we wont know how until the release of ME3. Shepard knows that. (In the flotilla, he said that the reapers are coming and he's going to need the help of the quarians)

Man, you need to understand one thing. The Reapers being able to reach the Milky Way in just a few years means they aren't "trapped" anywhere at all.

CapShepard wrote...

I think the Citadel it's a primary target, but now they can't launch a surprise attack.

But they can launch a surprise attack on a secondary target, such as Earth. What makes the Earth so different from the Citadel though, in terms of an invasion point, if the Reapers can't be detected until they drop out of the FTL, and they can do that anywhere?

CapShepard wrote...

Disable the mass relay network is not the only reason that the reapers would attack the Citadel. They attack the Citadel because that station has information about everything in the known space.

So much more reason to attack the Citadel first, and leave the Earth alone for a while. Stop shooting yourself in the foot, if you're trying to oppose my theory!

[CapShepard]

ok, let's see:

your theory
" The Reapers don't need to use the Citadel to get in the Milky Way. Check."
I agree on that one.

your theory:
"The Reapers don't need to use the Citadel early in the invasion. Check." 
No, they need to use the Citadel. Why? It's the fastest way to the Milky Way. They can launch a surprise attack. They can obtain critical information of all species in the known space. They can control the mass relay network. And they can use that station in another ways, because we don't fully comprehend the tecnology of the Citadel, since the that tecnlogy is the legacy of his (sovereign) kind.

your theory:
"The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to the Citadel mainframe come from?"
The Conduit was a prototype (the protheans were trying to understand the tecnology of the mass relays), so the mass relay only links in one direction, there is no way to return to Ilos. It's not a anti-Reaper "datafile". It's an override file that allowed Shepard full control of the Citadel, and that's how he opened the arms of the citadel again. I'm not so sure about it, but i think that's it. However, let's say that vigil it's a VI created by the reapers, why did he help Shepard to stop the reapers?


your theory:
"Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Protheans being extinct"
Why the reapers attacked the Citadel first? To obtain critical information of all species in the known space, wich includes, colonized worlds, space stations, research facilites and etc... BUT Ilos was a top secret facility, the reapers didn't find any info about that place. That's how they missed Ilos, but wait... there is a ****in small replica of a mass relay. The conduit was a prototype, it only links in one way Ilos-Citadel, it has no connection to the rest of the network, making it independent. So you think the reapers is going to travel around the galaxy searching in every system for the conduit? I don't think so.


your theory:
"Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?"
Why indoctrinated protheans (as you suggested) or husks, would build statues of themselves? The Prothean statues look like Protheans.

your theory:
"Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?"
That's the only thing that makes sense in your theory. BUT, maybe he was in sleep mode, maybe Saren somehow reactivated it. It's hard to say. If you have Liara in your squad, she'll say that maybe it's the last time that you gonna talk with vigil.

"the indoctrination hadn't been known to the pre-invasion Protheans, as it claimed later? " I don't remember that.
Maybe the protheans had studied the effects of indoctrination before the reaper invasion. Of course they were not studying the reaper indoctrination, but maybe another creature of mind controlling and telepathic abilities (the Thorian for example).

 
Now, i'm going to get some sleep.

Modifié par CapShepard, 05 février 2011 - 06:36 .

[Zulu_DFA]

CapShepard wrote...

ok, let's see:

your theory
" The Reapers don't need to use the Citadel to get in the Milky Way. Check."
I agree on that one.

Bingo. So Vigil was lying. Or was wrong. Which is semantics to me, and at least in meta-game terms I'm right.

CapShepard wrote...
your theory:
"The Reapers don't need to use the Citadel early in the invasion. Check." 
No, they need to use the Citadel. Why? It's the fastest way to the Milky Way. They can launch a surprise attack. They can obtain critical information of all species in the known space. They can control the mass relay network. And they can use that station in another ways, because we don't fully comprehend the tecnology of the Citadel, since the that tecnlogy is the legacy of his (sovereign) kind.

The Big Ben Sniper testifies that the attack on the Earth is going to be a surpize. So, the Reapers can stage a surprize attack on the Milky Way galaxy (of which the Earth is a part), even without the Citadel. Moreover, since launching a surprize attack on any part of the Milky Way galaxy is as good as on any other as long as it's a surprize attack (i.e. the target attacked is the first to be attacked), the Reapers should attack the most valuable target first. What makes the Earth so much more valuable than the Citadel, which the Prothean planet of origin lacked one round of the Cycle back?

CapShepard wrote...
your theory:
"The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to the Citadel mainframe come from?"
The Conduit was a prototype (the protheans were trying to understand the tecnology of the mass relays), so the mass relay only links in one direction, there is no way to return to Ilos. It's not a anti-Reaper "datafile". It's an override file that allowed Shepard full control of the Citadel, and that's how he opened the arms of the citadel again. I'm not so sure about it, but i think that's it. However, let's say that vigil it's a VI created by the reapers, why did he help Shepard to stop the reapers?

1. Does it make sense for the unsuspecting Protheans to store such an override program to the Citadel at a remote science facility?
2. How could Saren use the Citadel Console without such a program?
3. If Saren obtained a copy of it from Vigil, why didn't Vigil honestly told you so?
There are more questions, but let's hear you on these first.

CapShepard wrote...
your theory:
"Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Protheans being extinct"
Why the reapers attacked the Citadel first? To obtain critical information of all species in the known space, wich includes, colonized worlds, space stations, research facilites and etc... BUT Ilos was a top secret facility, the reapers didn't find any info about that place. That's how they missed Ilos,

But the Asari archaeologists know about Ilos from the Prothean rubble from all over the Galaxy. And not as a "secret facility" but a place housing numerous landmarks and monuments of the Prothean culture.

CapShepard wrote...

but wait... there is a ****in small replica of a mass relay. The conduit was a prototype, it only links in one way Ilos-Citadel, it has no connection to the rest of the network, making it independent. So you think the reapers is going to travel around the galaxy searching in every system for the conduit? I don't think so.

No, they just had to datamine the Protheans (or the ever-present Keepers) to find the clues to the real meaning and function of the statue. They could destroy it. In fact, given the Keepers' tendency to remove structures they don't like, they should have done that to the "statue" before the invasion. Instead, they "seem to avoid it" (Garrus says that), which could possibly make sense after they were "tinkered" with, but the fact is, the "statue" was built before that.

CapShepard wrote...
your theory:
"Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?"
Why indoctrinated protheans (as you suggested) or husks, would build statues of themselves? The Prothean statues look like Protheans.

For the same reason husks and Heretic Geth build Reaper shrines.

Mordin (and him I believe), infers that the degeneration of the Protheans was gradual. So, at the early stage of worshipping the Reapers they could regard their husks as the most dedicated servants of the machine gods or something. Definitely a reason to make statues after them.

CapShepard wrote...
your theory:
"Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?"
That's the only thing that makes sense in your theory. BUT, maybe he was in sleep mode, maybe Saren somehow reactivated it. It's hard to say. If you have Liara in your squad, she'll say that maybe it's the last time that you gonna talk with vigil.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that this is the weakest point of my theory, because, as many people have pointed out, this may be a coincidence. I believe in coincidences. But not when they strangely coincide with too many things and make more even sense if they are not coincidences.

CapShepard wrote...
"the indoctrination hadn't been known to the pre-invasion Protheans, as it claimed later? " I don't remember that.
Maybe the protheans had studied the effects of indoctrination before the reaper invasion. Of course they were not studying the reaper indoctrination, but maybe another creature of mind controlling and telepathic abilities (the Thorian for example).

Vigil's capability to "sense indoctrination" alone raises the question of where could this capability come from. Saren's own effort to study it yielded no results, other than that it produces distinct external symptoms on the subjects, when it's intense enough. Saren himself, however, never showed any outward manifestation of his mental fucntions being impaired. So Vigil would have to register the "residual field of indoctrination signal" (or whatever), emanating from Saren.

The writers would have made Vigil's tale much more believable, it they had it innocently give the same "datafile" to Saren, only to be told it's a huge mistake by Shepard. This would also help with the whole "What Saren needed on Ilos / Why hedidn't go Palpatine?" mystery. That wouldn't necessarily made that tale true, but as a two-way interaction between Shepard and Vigil, it would've been even more great as a lie. They didn't, and I honestly think it's a subtle hint on Vigil's malicious intents, which I suspected even before ME2 came out, but that are hinted at again in LotSB, when Shepard brings Vigil up during the discussion the Shadow Broker's interest in the Protheans with Liara.

CapShepard wrote...

Now, i'm going to get some sleep.

Hope your dreams have been sweet.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 février 2011 - 07:56 .

[MisterDyslexo]

Nice theory Zulu, not being sarcastic. I was always skeptical of Vigil, especially after his file magically disappeared in ME2 and went offline, and most great epics have a betrayal at some point. Bioware's also focused the main plot-points over a betrayal before as well before (Jade Empire in particular). I really wanna see where this goes, although I think its probably just going to end up being how its supposed to appear to the average person not looking too much into it.

[Zulu_DFA]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

Nice theory Zulu, not being sarcastic. I was always skeptical of Vigil, especially after his file magically disappeared in ME2 and went offline, and most great epics have a betrayal at some point. Bioware's also focused the main plot-points over a betrayal before as well before (Jade Empire in particular). I really wanna see where this goes, although I think its probably just going to end up being how its supposed to appear to the average person not looking too much into it.

It would have been even more lame though, if they made Vigil's tale an obvious lie, only to hang it to dry for the lenght a couple of games, before coming clean with us.

[Fixers0]

One question: did you really expect that Bioware made up all this stuff? I seriously doubt it, because within ME1 there was no reason to assume that the whole plot was a conspiracy theory.

But then When the sequal Reboot of Mass effect came, that didn't find it necessary to explain the plot to you, so we had to come up with this theory, that basicly reverse all the roles and changes all the facts. 

Just look at this video from 6:30 and the next video where he explains how poorly the Collector plan was.
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Fixers0, 05 février 2011 - 12:30 .

[Salty Specula]

What do the reapers gain by harvesting all life? What they gain primarily when it comes to themselves is twofold. The first is they attempt to harvest the races themselves, as seen in the final mission of ME2 to 'reproduce' by turning the essence of one species into that species' reaper.

The second reason is a little more complex. As Soverign said in the conversation on Virmire, the Citadel and Mass Relays are left there to ensure species develop along the paths they desire. In other words, since Mass Effect fields and all it's applicants are designed and in use by the reapers, and because the technology is so powerful and versatile, when the reapers do come back every 50,000 years species will develop the same technology slightly differently and create different manifestations of it, of which useful upgrades can be assimilated into all of the reapers so that they can 'evolve'

The indoctrinated remnants are used to harvest resouces needed to construct the new repeaer and to fix, repair, rearm and upgrade the reapers with whatever useful tech they have canibalized from the race or races they just harvested.

Modifié par Salty Specula, 05 février 2011 - 12:58 .