363 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

One question: did you really expect that Bioware made up all this stuff? I seriously doubt it, because within ME1 there was no reason to assume that the whole plot was a conspiracy theory.

There was: Saren's plan made no sense.

Fixers0 wrote...

But then When the sequal Reboot of Mass effect came, that didn't find it necessary to explain the plot to you, so we had to come up with this theory, that basicly reverse all the roles and changes all the facts. 

Reboot or not, call it what you will, it only supports the idea that there's something going on we haven't been told yet. And the LotSB practically ended with an open confirmation of it. BTW, I posted this thread shortly after I played the LotSB, as it became the final drop, that made me sure that Vigil had been lying.

Fixers0 wrote...

Just look at this video from 6:30 and the next video where he explains how poorly the Collector plan was.
www.youtube.com/watch

I'm the last person to dispute that the plot was very poor in execution in ME2, but it was mainly due to the "external influence" of the gameplay and art departments, and ultimately (or initially - how you look at it) of the executives, who demanded ME2 to become a 3D arcade. But I strongly believe that the main story lines had been set for the whole trilogy even before ME1 was OK'd for making. Maybe the biggest plot point that has been altered in any way so far is that Liara inevitably becomes the Shadow Broker (which wasn't always planned for), as opposed to it being a "Big Choice" (with an alterante option to blow TSB's base up and have Liara returned to Illium until ME3).

In any case, the Shepard vs. Reapers plot line was decided upon and sealed and isn't subject to alteration.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 février 2011 - 04:42 .

[CapShepard]

1-I don't remember Vigil saying that. He said that the reapers need to use the Citadel to launch a surprise attack and the station is a trap. He didn't say that there aren't another ways for the reapers to reach at the Milky Way.



2-That's the main plot of ME 3, we're going to discover why the reapers are attacking humanity. What they want with our genetic material. At the end of ME 2 we can hear Harbinger saying: "your species has the attention of those infinitely greater". In the comic Mass Effect Incursion we can see a datapad with the population total (only human) of many worlds. When you reach at that colector vessel (one of that missions in ME 2), one of your squadmates say that they're going to strike Earth. It seems that Earth is the most valuable target this time.



Ilos Prothean planet of Origin??? I really don't remember that too. Is that one of your many theories? However, as I said, the info about Ilos was top secret, and the litte info about that place was destroyed in the initial wave.



3-why not? ITS A ****IN TOP RESEARCH FACILITY!!!! Where else you are going to store such powerful thing (it gives you a temporary but full control of Citadel).



4-Because he had the help of a Reaper (his kind created the Citadel).



5-makes no sense answear this question.



6-OMG! It's been a long time since the Prothean extinction so Ilos is not that secret now. Someone in the galaxy would eventually discover that facility, fifty thousand years it's a looooong time.



7-There is no way to find the clues of the real meaning, because as I said, " it only links in one way Ilos-Citadel, it has no connection to the rest of the network, making it independent.". The small replica is not conected with the citadel and the network. Keepers do not destroy and they don't remove the structure they don't like. The Keepers exist for no other reason than to MANTAIN the Citadel and its systems.



8-Reaper shrines it's very different from a husk statue. Your theory makes no sense at all.



9-Vigil it's a VI created by Ksad Ishan, the Prothean Chief Overseer of the Ilos facility. Vigil was supposed to help Shepard, giving all info about the reapers (wich includes the concept of indoctrination). What they needed in Ilos? Really? I don't know, maybe a backdoor for the citadel and lauch a surprise attack inside the station and access the "control painel" of the Citadel Tower.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]CapShepard wrote...

1-I don't remember Vigil saying that. He said that the reapers need to use the Citadel to launch a surprise attack and the station is a trap. He didn't say that there aren't another ways for the reapers to reach at the Milky Way.
[/quote]
Trap, to trap - this word has got the meaning of it. The Reapers are in a situation they have no way out of.

This even led many people to believe the Human Reaper was meant as a replacement for Sovereign, and how silly it was that the Reparers were trying to repeat a plan that had already failed once, but apparently there wasn't any way around id, since the Citadel was their only way in to the Milky Way, and it needed a Reaper to activate.

As far as we know now, it's not going to be the case.


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

2-That's the main plot of ME 3, we're going to discover why the reapers are attacking humanity. What they want with our genetic material. At the end of ME 2 we can hear Harbinger saying: "your species has the attention of those infinitely greater". In the comic Mass Effect Incursion we can see a datapad with the population total (only human) of many worlds. When you reach at that colector vessel (one of that missions in ME 2), one of your squadmates say that they're going to strike Earth. It seems that Earth is the most valuable target this time.
[/quote]
Two words: The & Cycle. They mean that if the planet of origin of the species that's got "the attention of those infinitely greater" is the primary target this time, it had to be so the last time also, as well as all the time before. That's why "Citadel as primary target" makes no sense any more. Because it is not the primary target!


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

Ilos Prothean planet of Origin??? I really don't remember that too. Is that one of your many theories? However, as I said, the info about Ilos was top secret, and the litte info about that place was destroyed in the initial wave.
[/quote]
This is my speculation at this point. I became sure of it after the teaser trailer was released in December, and now TIM's vision in Evolution #2 confirmes it.


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

3-why not? ITS A ****IN TOP RESEARCH FACILITY!!!! Where else you are going to store such powerful thing (it gives you a temporary but full control of Citadel).
[/quote]
In a top secret MILITARY FACILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ON MY PLANET OF ORIGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because how would having a Citadel override help with the Conduit research project?


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

4-Because he had the help of a Reaper (his kind created the Citadel).
[/quote]
Vigil also "guesses" that the Keepers were created by the Reapers. So why didn't Sovereign try to have Saren study the Keepers (employ Chorban, perhaps?) with all the knowledge it had on the subject (then just reverse the "12 scientists" alterations and get on with the remote control)? Why didn't Sovereign have Saren&Benezia go "Palpatine", or smuggle and batttalion of Geth onto the Citadel, to stage a surprize attack? What the hell was wrong with Sovereign, so badly that it alerted the Galaxy to its presence only to find a "back door to the Citadel", and still have to pretty much smash in the front door anyway?


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

6-OMG! It's been a long time since the Prothean extinction so Ilos is not that secret now. Someone in the galaxy would eventually discover that facility, fifty thousand years it's a looooong time.
[/quote]
Do you realize what you're saying? There was nobody to discover that facility, and there was no way, because the Mu Realy lost!

Nobody in the Prothean empire supposedly knew about Ilos to rat it out to the Reapers, but every Asari archaeologist knows about Ilos even though nobody of them has ever gone there in person, because [Get ready for a surpize!........................] its existence, glory and approximate location are written in stone all over the rubble of the Prothean empire!


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

7-There is no way to find the clues of the real meaning, because as I said, " it only links in one way Ilos-Citadel, it has no connection to the rest of the network, making it independent.". The small replica is not conected with the citadel and the network.
[/quote]
There were Protheans who built it. Construction workers, logistical managers. The Reapers should only have given the order, the rest was up to the indoctrinated Prothean servants. You know, basic detective work. As if the Protheans became interested themselves "What the hell have we built here?"

And to realize it's got something to do with the mass relaying, the Reapers only had to have it cracked open and see what's inside. The Asari protected the "statue" from studying, becasue it was a masterpiece of art of the ancient exinct civilization, but the Reapers wouldn't have had such compunctions.


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

Keepers do not destroy and they don't remove the structure they don't like. The Keepers exist for no other reason than to MANTAIN the Citadel and its systems.
[/quote]
Talk to Admiral Anderson. They do re-arrange, and at times outright remove things, and it's not limited to rubble. I believe Avina or Chorban told as much in ME1 already.


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

8-Reaper shrines it's very different from a husk statue. Your theory makes no sense at all.
[/quote]
How is a Reaper shrine very different from a husk statue? If my theory makes no sense, than it makes no sense to put statues of angels and saints in Christian chapels. (This is a debatable point indeed, but last I checked the statues were there.)


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

9-Vigil it's a VI created by Ksad Ishan, the Prothean Chief Overseer of the Ilos facility.
[/quote]
Only Vigil says so.


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

Vigil was supposed to help Shepard,
[/quote]
Sure. But the Reapers are here.


[quote]CapShepard wrote...

giving all info about the reapers (wich includes the concept of indoctrination).
[/quote]
In the form of guesses, some of which have proven wrong.

Info on the Reapers comes from multiple sources, including but not limited to Shiala, Benezia, Saren, Sovereign.

Info on indoctrination comes from multiple sources, including, but not limited to STG Lt. Imness, Rana Tanoptis, Shiala, Benezia, and what appears to be Cerberus research available via the Codex after you complete the Derelict Reaper mission.

But none of these sources confirm any of the Vigil's tale. Except a single line by Saren when Shepard tags him for the showdown. He does say: "The relay will open, the Reapers will return". It is the strongest (or the only one, actually) argument against my theory. And guess what, it's the least used one in this thread!

But I, of course, had thought it over, and here is how it can be explained:

The whole tale was initially invented by Sovereign to persuade the Geth to work for it. Naturally, Saren, as its "prophet", had to learn this tale too, to preach it to the Geth in Sovereign's absense. Harbinger learned this (possibly in the same way as Shepard learnt the "Conduit" part of it - via a salvaged Geth memory banks, obtained by the Shadow Broker and sold to the Collectors), and used it to manipulate Shepard into uploading the "datafile" as it was quite suitable a lie.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 février 2011 - 05:12 .

[DTKT]

Is it possible that you might just be looking into it too much?



That might sound cliche and dumb, but it's a videogame with the issues in lore as movies and other media.

[Zulu_DFA]

DTKT wrote...

Is it possible that you might just be looking into it too much?

Short answer: yes.

DTKT wrote...

That might sound cliche and dumb, but it's a videogame with the issues in lore as movies and other media.

For a pre-planned trilogy, I think it would be kinda serious issue.

[Zulu_DFA]

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 février 2011 - 03:32 .

[CapShepard]

FUUUUUUCCCKKKKKK!!



Why is that so hard to understand!? Man you have mental problems go get some help.



I won't waste my time with you anymore, please read my post again and maybe you can see that your theory makes no sense. Really. I know that anything I say u are going to say that's BS, because u think your theory is perfect, but is not, I tried to explain why your theory makes no sense but you didn't listen. Don't cry when you see in ME 3 that everything you said here is not the truth.



Vigil is lying and its a VI created by the Reapers, Reapers are not in Dark Space, there is two teams of Reaper (Sovereign and Harbinger), man listen to yourself, i think u spent too much time reading those conspiracy theories.



That's all.

[Zulu_DFA]

CapShepard wrote...

FUUUUUUCCCKKKKKK!!

Why is that so hard to understand!? Man you have mental problems go get some help.

I appreciate the concern, thanks.

CapShepard wrote...

I won't waste my time with you anymore, please read my post again and maybe you can see that your theory makes no sense. Really.

I've read a hundred post like yours in this thread already. What makes you special?

CapShepard wrote...

I know that anything I say u are going to say that's BS, because u think your theory is perfect, but is not, I tried to explain why your theory makes no sense but you didn't listen. Don't cry when you see in ME 3 that everything you said here is not the truth.

Vigil is lying and its a VI created by the Reapers, Reapers are not in Dark Space, there is two teams of Reaper (Sovereign and Harbinger), man listen to yourself, i think u spent too much time reading those conspiracy theories.

Now that you've summed up my theory, I am all the more certain it's true, seeing how simple it is actually. Thanks again!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 février 2011 - 10:39 .

[shoggoth1890]

A trilogy being pre-planned does not mean it is not subject to change, it just means they have a general idea of where they are going. Finer details can have inconsistencies.

[Icinix]

These theories are so much more interesting than the probably more than likely 'Prothean super-weapon to wipe out the reapers' we're going to find and use in ME3.



The arkship theory and that are awesome. I'd love ME3 to really go this deep with it's story.

[Fixers0]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


There was: Saren's plan made no sense.

If Saren plan didn't made any sense then Harbinger's plan made zero sense,, Of course there were some problems here there with saren/sovereign plan, but at least the game the game took the effort to explain it to use from multiple point's of view and the plan almost succeeded, we can make tons of ''What if'' scenarios of what else could happen with Sovereign plan, but then again there is no real reason to doubt sovereign intention to open the Citadel Relay.

Reboot or not, call it what you will, it only supports the idea that there's something going on we haven't been told yet. And the LotSB practically ended with an open confirmation of it. BTW, I posted this thread shortly after I played the LotSB, as it became the final drop, that made me sure that Vigil had been lying.

What Made you so sure?, you should be talking like this unless you wrote the script for the Mass effect Trilogy, which you haven't. also i prefer to use other words, for vigil i would say unbeknownst to rather  then lying, and for your proof i would prefer to say inconsitensies with Mass effect 1

I'm the last person to dispute that the plot was very poor in execution in ME2, but it was mainly due to the "external influence" of the gameplay and art departments, and ultimately (or initially - how you look at it) of the executives, who demanded ME2 to become a 3D arcade. But I strongly believe that the main story lines had been set for the whole trilogy even before ME1 was OK'd for making. Maybe the biggest plot point that has been altered in any way so far is that Liara inevitably becomes the Shadow Broker (which wasn't always planned for), as opposed to it being a "Big Choice" (with an alterante option to blow TSB's base up and have Liara returned to Illium until ME3).

In any case, the Shepard vs. Reapers plot line was decided upon and sealed and isn't subject to alteration.

My point was that you're basicly telling that ME 1 plot was pointless as it was always supposed that everything is the other way around, which i don't believe, you can't just put a Palpatine type conspiracy theory into every Trilogy, especialy when the first part has nothing to with this Conspiracy. 

To be honest, it think that Mass effect 1 would be much better as a separate game with is own story, as in my point of view Mass Effect 1 and Mass effect 2 did to much harm to eachother.

Modifié par Fixers0, 06 février 2011 - 11:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


There was: Saren's plan made no sense.

If Saren plan didn't made any sense then Harbinger's plan made zero sense,,
We don't know what Harbinger's plan was. Apparently, as we've "changed nothing", we're going to learn about it in ME3.

Of course there were some problems here there with saren/sovereign plan, but at least the game the game took the effort to explain it to use from multiple point's of view and the plan almost succeeded, we can make tons of ''What if'' scenarios of what else could happen with Sovereign plan, but then again there is no real reason to doubt sovereign intention to open the Citadel Relay.
There is all the reason to doubt the Citadel is a relay, in the first place. To start with, it doesn't look like a relay.

Reboot or not, call it what you will, it only supports the idea that there's something going on we haven't been told yet. And the LotSB practically ended with an open confirmation of it. BTW, I posted this thread shortly after I played the LotSB, as it became the final drop, that made me sure that Vigil had been lying.

What Made you so sure?, you should be talking like this unless you wrote the script for the Mass effect Trilogy, which you haven't. also i prefer to use other words, for vigil i would say unbeknownst to rather  then lying, and for your proof i would prefer to say inconsitensies with Mass effect 1
Let's not teach me how to live, shall we? This is off-topic. BTW, I have no problem with people handwaving all this as a case of bad writing.

I'm the last person to dispute that the plot was very poor in execution in ME2, but it was mainly due to the "external influence" of the gameplay and art departments, and ultimately (or initially - how you look at it) of the executives, who demanded ME2 to become a 3D arcade. But I strongly believe that the main story lines had been set for the whole trilogy even before ME1 was OK'd for making. Maybe the biggest plot point that has been altered in any way so far is that Liara inevitably becomes the Shadow Broker (which wasn't always planned for), as opposed to it being a "Big Choice" (with an alterante option to blow TSB's base up and have Liara returned to Illium until ME3).

In any case, the Shepard vs. Reapers plot line was decided upon and sealed and isn't subject to alteration.

My point was that you're basicly telling that ME 1 plot was pointless as it was always supposed that everything is the other way around, which i don't believe, you can't just put a Palpatine type conspiracy theory into every Trilogy, especialy when the first part has nothing to with this Conspiracy.
And I hear many people think ME2 was pointless. Myself, I don't think either of them was pointless, because that'd be like saying that all chapters in a book are pointless, except the last one, becasue only there we learn who is the murderer. In ME1 we're introduced to the universe and learn of the Reaper threat, but also we are led away from the truth somewhat, so that it could hit us like a ton of bricks in the last part of the trilogy. What can be better than that?

To be honest, it think that Mass effect 1 would be much better as a separate game with is own story, as in my point of view Mass Effect 1 and Mass effect 2 did to much harm to eachother.

To be honest, I had thought it to be a worthy idea to make a spin-off first person shooter set in the ME universe, with the innovative unlimited ammo / cooldown system, but then ME2 came out. Oh well...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 février 2011 - 12:45 .

[shoggoth1890]

Honestly, I see this as related to real world conspiracy theories. The problem that most real world conspiracy theorists have, is a belief in the infallibility of members of authority. They'll use inconsistencies in stories as foundation for their idea that there is some kind of cover-up.

"The military base first said there were no flights at that time, but now they're saying those lights were flares from a returning flight? Aliens!"

Believe it or not, Bioware is not infallible either.

[JHU_P4NDA]

shoggoth1890 wrote...

Honestly, I see this as related to real world conspiracy theories. The problem that most real world conspiracy theorists have, is a belief in the infallibility of members of authority. They'll use inconsistencies in stories as foundation for their idea that there is some kind of cover-up.
"The military base first said there were no flights at that time, but now they're saying those lights were flares from a returning flight? Aliens!"
Believe it or not, Bioware is not infallible either.

Quoted. For. Truth.

Some people are completely immune to the concept of Occam's Razor. Truth, even in the real world, is subject to the perceptions and recollections of an imperfect human mind. In this case, they were creating an entirely new Mass Effect UNIVERSE. 

The fact that most people have not had these problems with the plot should probably tell you that you are thinking too hard about this. It is, in the end, just a game. Even the Star Wars universe and the Lord of the Rings universe are not without infallacies, and those were developed over DECADES, rather than at most a few years for the ME universe.

How about you think about all these questions again after you play through Mass Effect 3? And this time, try to have an open mind. Try to consider the possibilities like "maybe Vigil's batteries were at 1% instead of 10%, which would explain why it ran out of power shortly after ME1." 

[Archontor]

Just a question is it possible vigel shut himself down afterwards to prevent indoctrnated troops from getting the data by force, since the info would allready be in non-indoctirinated forces after telling it to someone who was not indoctrinated.

[Zulu_DFA]

So, in Evolution #2 we've got some homage to Sir Arthur Clarke's "Space Odyssey" series, particularly the Monolith.

And it is starting to look like it probably was the main "source of inspiration" for BioWare with all these Reapers and "beings of light"... Check out the linky and deside for yourself.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 février 2011 - 10:27 .

[eldav]

So are you trying to tell me that the race that made the Reapers (Monolith) are the being of light ?

[Zulu_DFA]

eldav wrote...

So are you trying to tell me that the race that made the Reapers (Monolith) are the being of light ?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: that race built the Citadel, the mass relays (at least some of them), and the first Reapers. Then they achieved a whole another magical-technological level and turned themselves into the "beings of light". The Reapers were thus left behind, and kept on doing what they were always supposed to do - guiding the evolution of the sapient life. However, they may not even know why they do it and what for. Or they may want to find a way to turn themselves into the "beings of light" too. The "beings of light" have been enjoing their non-physical form for billions of years, without caring much about what's happenning in the Galaxy, but now they suddenly do care. Or maybe they have had some problems affecting the physical universe for some time already, but now they've found a way: contact a Volus billionaire in his dreams, manipulate dark energy inside certain stars, etc. Basically anything that may screw up the Reapers' plans.

[Pwener2313]

The beings of light? I made a thread about them a week ago. My guess is that they are the ones who were destined to destroy the Reapers but failed.

[eldav]

What are the Reapers/Monoliths goal ?



First off, it indeed goes to say that Mass effect is a Space Odyssey cover (lol)

i found this snipet about Space Odyssey`s plot:



three monoliths are discovered in the solar system by humans and it is revealed that thousands if not more were created throughout the solar system, although none are seen. The subsequent response of the characters to their discovery drives the plot of the series. It also influences the fictional history of the series, particularly by encouraging humankind to progress with technological development and space travel.



So it is pretty clear that the Reapers are represents as Monoliths, as they have influenced the history of every sentinet being.



So the question that i asked myself is why does these Reapers destroy all life every 50 000 years ?

And here is what i think, the Reapers has not been corrupted, they are merely taking the next step in their builders plan to force the now fully aided sentinets being to overcome the Reapers, and thus is strong enough to take the next step in evolution that is computer like information progression, just like in the ending of Space Odyssey .



So....what do you think ?

[Geth_Prime]

Maybe the Reapers just like killing things. Anyone considered that possibility?

[The real truth]

Geth_Prime wrote...

Maybe the Reapers just like killing things. Anyone considered that possibility?

Yes I did I came to conclusion if they're then its not worth talking about.

Someone; hey bro the reapers like killing stuff for the lolz.

Guy; Cool

Someone;Everything the reapers do is because they like killing us.
This is ground breaking imagine the awards bioware will get for such an amazing story.

Guy;That's interesting, there's a real mystery behind it.

[CapShepard]

I think we'll find out the truth in the next DLC (Arrival) Zulu. And you gonna cry like baby men mwahahahahahahah

[aimlessgun]

Interesting thread. Either there's something to what Zulu is saying, or they screwed up the entire ME story. Frankly, it's far, far more likely that they just screwed up.

[Zulu_DFA]

aimlessgun wrote...

Interesting thread. Either there's something to what Zulu is saying, or they screwed up the entire ME story. Frankly, it's far, far more likely that they just screwed up.

I think it's both actually.

In the begining the story was well thought out and planned for the entire lenght of the trilogy. That possibly included all the ME2 twists, such as Shepard's alleged death and comeback, Cerberus turning good guys, the Collectors, Liara becoming the Shadow Broker, etc.

But after ME1 was done, BioWare started implementing this "fluent shooter" crap (Don't get me wrong, I love shooters. Only I love good shooters, and that means first person, for starters.) To that end they started cutting the amount of dialogue lines that would clarify the intricacies of the plot, as they thought people were skipping most of the dialogue anyway. In fact, in ME2 there is a loading screen tip encouraging people to skip lines - even those that got left behind. They also attempted to make ME2 more hollywoody, and more comicbookish, by turning the cutscene power to the max, which meant turning the cutscene sense to the min. Finally, they just started rushing the deadlines, cut off the Shadow Broker plotline to sell it later as DLC, so yeah...

They just screwed up.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2011 - 07:36 .