363 réponses à ce sujet

[Zan Mura]

None of BW's plots have ever been insanely complex or too far-fetched. They rely on a simple story that works, makes sense and delivers to the average Joe. Yet is still detailed and well-written enough to appeal decently well even to most of those who would like more, a deeper meaning if you may. I'm absolutely certain there won't be any sudden twists to what's already been established in the plot. I expect there will be surprises, and some major "aha!" -experience sure, but nothing as profound as suddenly going back on everything that's been revealed thus far.

I believe the Protheans and Vigil were exactly what they seemed to be. That the datafile was exactly was it was, with no real hidden meanings.

[Zulu_DFA]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

What tactical advantage did Saren's emergence on the Presidium and battling C-Sec on his way up gave to Sovereign? As opposed to possible direct insertion to the Council Chamber when Sovereign docked, and then holding it? If the only purpose of Saren was to push "confirm connection" button?

Sovereign had to fight through the Citadel fleet on its own (while Saren was exchanging small arms fire with the C-Sec and riding the elevators), and that fleet was bigger because of the Council's precautions taken due to Saren's Activities in the Traverse. The Citadel Arms were closed by the C-Sec per standard defense procedures. Even as the battle raged on, the Geth used their dropships to bring in reinforcements

Actually, I think the Citadel arms were held open by Saren (remember the commander of the Destiny trying to close them?) for long enough for Sovereign to approach, then closed at exactly the right moment in order to protect Sov from the combined fire of the fleet.  Your plan risks the arms being shut before Sovereign can reach the tower to dock, and Sovereign being exposed to mass accelerator fire all the time until Saren seizes control of the console.

It's very easy to pour scorn on a failed plan and suggest an alternative that you think would have worked better.  But you don't know that your way would have worked better for sure.  Saren's plan only failed because it couldn't contain Shepard.

You're inveting things. Saren had not reached the Council Chamber before the Arms were already closed. Even if it what you said were true, it's not like Saren couldn't smuggle some Geth on the Citadel the old-fashioned way.

EDIT. Actually you're right, Saren did attack the Citadel Control first, to manipulate the Arms. But it changes nothing. He could infiltrate the Citadel in a number of good old-fashioned ways, rather than chasing a ghost of a chance across half the Galaxy, alerting the Council and losing his spectrecy in the process.

And again, Saren's plan failed because it was overly complicated. The game puts you in the shoes of the guy who just happened to be Saren's doom. But Saren has nobody to blame but himself and his inept Reaper masters, who fail at Intelligence, Strategy and Tactics. I bet, it's been their blind luck that the Reapers were able to maintain the Cycle for billions of years.

Zan Mura wrote...

None of BW's plots have ever been insanely complex or too far-fetched. They rely on a simple story that works, makes sense and delivers to the average Joe. Yet is still detailed and well-written enough to appeal decently well even to most of those who would like more, a deeper meaning if you may. I'm absolutely certain there won't be any sudden twists to what's already been established in the plot. I expect there will be surprises, and some major "aha!" -experience sure, but nothing as profound as suddenly going back on everything that's been revealed thus far.

Ha! Best response so far.

Zan Mura wrote...
I believe the Protheans and Vigil were exactly what they seemed to be. That the datafile was exactly was it was, with no real hidden meanings.

PLOT HOLE?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[SomeBug]

What? Sovereigns plan was a smart one. Sovereign needed direct connection to the Citadel central control to open the Big Bad Door To Dark Space that the Keepers would normally do.



The whole point of the Mass Effect plot was that the Reapers had not anticipated anything more than a simple flick of the switch to Ultimate Doom. The Keepers had always done their job as predicted and therefore the Reapers only needed to leave behind one ship to give the signal (Sovereign).



With that initial routine foiled by the last remnants of the Protheans, they needed a plan B.



Knowing that flying right up to the Citadel would be disastrous, even for a Reaper ship, it needed Saren to infiltrate the Citadel via the Conduit Back Door, take control of the station and close the arms around Sovereign, protecting it while it performs its task.



Who knows how long it takes to power up the Citadel portal. Maybe once they give the signal the Keepers spend weeks doing it in secret in the bowels of the station. Either way, once Shepard regained control of the station, opened the arms and exposed Sovereign, the Reaper was destroyed.



Their plan has coherency, motive and necessity. The Citadel is the most protect part of the entire galaxy. Saying he could have 'smuggled in' Geth, or simply done some amphibious landing is absurd. The whole point of Saren finding the conduit is that he and Sovereign needed quick and surprise tactics.

[Monochrome Wench]

My guess is Soverign doesn't think covert. Saren could have just gone to the council chambers and access the Citadel Controls to hand manual control over to Soverign. Shepard can roam around the concil chambers with no one else around. Saren, as Spectre would be unlikely to be question by anyone for doing something 'interesting' in the Chambers. Why would Saren their best spectre be doing anything wrong.



That said, I can see a slight flaw. There is no guarentee that Soverign would be able to get near enough to the Citadel in that situation. While Saren might come riding in on it, chances are the council would want to keep it away from the citadel and study it. If some unknown dreadnought that Saren just happened to find starts doing odd things near the citadel its hard to predict what the responce would be.



Coming in with overwhelming force on the otherhand, is almost guarenteed to work. Provided you can get a large enough force in. The Conduit was a convienient backdoor. Its obvious that Saren and Soverign had been building up a force for a while. The facility on Virmire didn't just appear overnight. Chances are if they couldn't find the Conduit then something else would have been tried, perhaps like the scenario i outlined above.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

i think the alliance knows more about the reapers and keepers, playing as if they know nothing or less about the matter as sheperd does. wouldn't be surprised if that turian councilor secretively worked for reapers or something.

[Zulu_DFA]

SomeBug wrote...

Knowing that flying right up to the Citadel would be disastrous, even for a Reaper ship, it needed Saren to infiltrate the Citadel via the Conduit Back Door, take control of the station and close the arms around Sovereign, protecting it while it performs its task.

Yet, it was exactly what Sovereign did. It flew straight to the Citadel, while Saren was fighting C-Sec on the Presidium and in the Tower.

SomeBug wrote...
Who knows how long it takes to power up the Citadel portal. Maybe once they give the signal the Keepers spend weeks doing it in secret in the bowels of the station. Either way, once Shepard regained control of the station, opened the arms and exposed Sovereign, the Reaper was destroyed.

Note, that Shepard was able to regain control of the station when Sovereign was already interfaced with it. Saren had transfered control to Sovereign moments before Shepard appeared, and was protecting the console, claiming that in a few minutes it would be all over. Evidently, Vigil's "datafile" had Reaper-grade capability.

SomeBug wrote...
Their plan has coherency, motive and necessity. The Citadel is the most protect part of the entire galaxy. Saying he could have 'smuggled in' Geth, or simply done some amphibious landing is absurd. The whole point of Saren finding the conduit is that he and Sovereign needed quick and surprise tactics.

Yet, the surprise was lost. And don't tell me Citadel is impenetrable. Maybe Emily Vong told you so, but it's not true. Lots of crooks possess illegal weapons in the Wards, the Blue Suns even managed to smuggle in heavy mechs and rocket launchers. And the Batarians nearly unleashed a chemical attack on the Council. Saren was a Spectre, that gave him a lot of edge, much more than some mythical Conduit.

Monochrome Wench wrote...
Coming in with overwhelming force on the otherhand, is almost guarenteed to work. Provided you can get a large enough force in. The Conduit was a convienient backdoor. Its obvious that Saren and Soverign had been building up a force for a while. The facility on Virmire didn't just appear overnight. Chances are if they couldn't find the Conduit then something else would have been tried, perhaps like the scenario i outlined above.

Right. Only neither Sovereign, nor his Geth Heretics' fleet came through the "back door". They did almost everithing with old fashioned frontal assault attack. Why didn't they pour as many geth combat platforms as they could through the Conduit? Why couldn't Saren use some Turian built ship, while he still was a Spectre, to launch a surprise attack?

"Ship X, this is Citadel Control, state your business!"
"Citadel Control, this is Ship X, we have Spectre Saren on board with an urgent report to the Council, request immediate docking!"
"OK, Ship X, Bay 3, you're clear to dock..."

Bam! Saren springs out with 50 Geth at his side. No need for the Conduit.

But that was not possible after Eden Prime.

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

i think the alliance knows more about the reapers and keepers, playing as if they know nothing or less about the matter as sheperd does. wouldn't be surprised if that turian councilor secretively worked for reapers or something.

There is a theory (not mine), that the Citadel has a subtle indoctrination effect. It's Reaper-built, after all. Funny how many people here freak out about saving the C-Base: "It's Reaper-built, it's gonna indoctrinate everyone!" and have no misgivings about the Citadel itself, which is the same - Reaper-built. Only the C-Base seems not to have been inteded to be accessed by anyone but Collectors, while the Citadel is there on purpose to become the hub of the organic civilizations, and make them "develop along the path Reapers desire"!

So if we accept this possibility for a moment, that would provide a perfect explanation for the Council (and certain Admirals) acting weird... But it's got a lot worse over the two years Shepard was off the loop, so maybe the indoctrination effect got some boost?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 septembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[stewie1974]

There is a theory (not mine), that the Citadel has a subtle indoctrination effect. It's Reaper-built, after all. Funny how many people here freak out about saving the C-Base: "It's Reaper-built, it's gonna indoctrinate everyone!" and have no misgivings about the Citadel itself, which is the same - Reaper-built. Only the C-Base seems not to have been inteded to be accessed by anyone but Collectors, while the Citadel is there on purpose to become the hub of the organic civilizations, and make them "develop along the path Reapers desire"!

So if we accept this possibility for a moment, that would provide a perfect explanation for the Council (and certain Admirals) acting weird... But it's got a lot worse over the two years Shepard was off the loop, so maybe the indoctrination effect got some boost?

THIS....

I still blew up the collector base though, I wasn't given the option to nuke the citadel or the mass relays

[jmc73]

1-I agree w/ uber-rod's answer...

2-actually explained in ME1...they had all info kept off of records in citadel...it was a classified project...so that's how they remained hidden.

3-no answer...they do kinda look like husks,I agree,but just think it is an odd coincedence

4-Your answer was solid on this...the only other theroy I have is fearing encountering more indoctrinated,and already having helped those that were not,it's purpose was completed and self-terminated.

5-plan A,as refered to,was busted when Sheppard exposed Saren as a traitor.

6-maybe?!?

[Saremei]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They had to try the "Palpatine" before anything else. So that Saren would not lose his Spectre status over some ghostly artefact... And how did thay know about the Conduit in the first place?

Saren learned of the Conduit the same way Shepard learned about it.  It's quite clear in the story.  Saren was one step ahead at finding the beacons and using them, then getting the cipher from mr thorian to understand the whole message and where the Conduit was.  Saren knew the council and others would resist his plan. He didn't understand the effects of indoctrination until he studied it himself on virmire.

Hell if you wanna ask why regarding something, why not ask why he didn't just go straight to the citadel himself when he was not under suspicion to manually control the citadel.  Surely Sovereign could give Saren some instructions to open the mass relay or some tech that could do it.  In the end all the questions just end up being pointless since it is the way it is because that's the story they wanted to tell. The amount of thought given to dissect the story is likely much more than the thought that went into making said story.

[Veryth]

The one surprise is that Sovereign didn't just sail up to the Citadel with Saren 'captaining' it while Saren was still a Spectre.

When something that's worked for hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps even millions, stops working, suddenly, it's not necessarily the best tactical decision to make yourself known and see what went wrong. 

The only assured  tactical advantage that Sovereign had was that it was unnknown. 

Sailing up to the Citadel in an unknown vessel, of unknown origin, would raise *far* too many questions, no matter who was 'captaining' it. 

[Iakus]

Saremei wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They had to try the "Palpatine" before anything else. So that Saren would not lose his Spectre status over some ghostly artefact... And how did thay know about the Conduit in the first place?

Saren learned of the Conduit the same way Shepard learned about it.  It's quite clear in the story.  Saren was one step ahead at finding the beacons and using them, then getting the cipher from mr thorian to understand the whole message and where the Conduit was.  Saren knew the council and others would resist his plan. He didn't understand the effects of indoctrination until he studied it himself on virmire.

Hell if you wanna ask why regarding something, why not ask why he didn't just go straight to the citadel himself when he was not under suspicion to manually control the citadel.  Surely Sovereign could give Saren some instructions to open the mass relay or some tech that could do it.  In the end all the questions just end up being pointless since it is the way it is because that's the story they wanted to tell. The amount of thought given to dissect the story is likely much more than the thought that went into making said story.

I always believed that Sovereign and Saren were trying to figure out what exactly the Prothean scientists did to block the signal.  Both Shepard and Saren were working on puzzles, just different ones, and Saren had a head start.  The beacon on Eden Prime was an important stroke of luck for both of them

If Saren had managed to destroy the colony and the beacon, what exactly happened there would have remained a mystery.  Sure it might have had something to do with the beacon.  Maybe the Council would have eventually figured out it was a geth attack.  But a Spectre behind it?  Saren?  No way.  He would have found the Mu Relay, gone to Ilos, figured out what happened to the Keepers, and perhaps could have strolled back to the Citadel on his own. 

But Shepard stopped the destruction of Eden Prime, accessed the beacon, and gathered the evidence that implicated Saren.  Thus Saren had to do things "the hard way"

[smudboy]

So long as they focus on what makes Shepard unique -- the Prothean Visions and Cipher -- and make them plot integral, and make no mention of melting people down to make Reapers, I think any mystery of the Protheans will be a well accepted.

Unless of course it becomes some new energy weapon that makes Shepard headbutt a Reaper via Vanguard charging. That would be painfully awful on several levels.

[SomeBug]

See that's what makes me think the Illusive Mans little motivation thing at the beginning has far more to it than he lets on. They brought Shepard back because he's unique and they needed him just as he was. Methinks that they didn't want to clone him/cyborg him because of some unforeseen thing to do with the cypher.



There will probably be some Prothean MacGuffin in Me3 that needs Shepard as the 'key' to unlock it and win the day.

[GnusmasTHX]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Vigil would have no reason to lie about the Protheans making the Conduit... Unless he was programmed by Reapers.

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

GnusmasTHX wrote...
If he was, Saren wouldn't need to search for Ilos.

Yes, he would. Because the Mu Relay was missing. Sovereign had no access to Ilos. And the Mu Relay was missing because the star it had been orbiting went supernova. Unexpectedly. The first surprise for the Reapers in eons and the only reason their perfect plan was breached this time.

Well then Saren must've been kept unnecessarily unaware of Sovereign's "true plan".  More so he didn't know of Ilos, he was searching for the Conduit, why wouldn't Sovereign just tell Saren that the Conduit was on Ilos which was passed the Mu Relay? Saren would've already known EXACTLY where the Conduit was, yet he claims to be searching for clues for the CONDUIT's location, not the Mu Relay's.

The dialog makes it clear that Saren and Sovereign don't know where the Conduit was, when they should have. 

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[Zulu_DFA]

SomeBug wrote...

See that's what makes me think the Illusive Mans little motivation thing at the beginning has far more to it than he lets on. They brought Shepard back because he's unique and they needed him just as he was. Methinks that they didn't want to clone him/cyborg him because of some unforeseen thing to do with the cypher.

There will probably be some Prothean MacGuffin in Me3 that needs Shepard as the 'key' to unlock it and win the day.

And the best place for it is Ilos. The single Prothean site, supposedly untouched by the Reapers. I think, in ME3 we'll be returning there to search for the clues (and Liara said in ME1 she wanted to do that...). And there will be some revelation there. But, truthfully, what else can we learn there besides what Vigil already told? Only that Vigil was lying.

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Vigil would have no reason to lie about the Protheans making the Conduit... Unless he was programmed by Reapers.

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

GnusmasTHX wrote...
If he was, Saren wouldn't need to search for Ilos.

Yes, he would. Because the Mu Relay was missing. Sovereign had no access to Ilos. And the Mu Relay was missing because the star it had been orbiting went supernova. Unexpectedly. The first surprise for the Reapers in eons and the only reason their perfect plan was breached this time.

Well then Saren must've been kept unnecessarily unaware of Sovereign's "true plan".  More so he didn't know of Ilos, he was searching for the Conduit, why wouldn't Sovereign just tell Saren that the Conduit was on Ilos which was passed the Mu Relay? Saren would've already known EXACTLY where the Conduit was, yet he claims to be searching for clues for the CONDUIT's location, not the Mu Relay's.

The dialog makes it clear that Saren and Sovereign don't know where the Conduit was, when they should have. 

On the contrary, it is unclear whether Saren & Sovereign knew about Ilos or not. They may have known, but were searching for a way to reach it without Mu Relay (who could guarantee the Rachni queen would be able to pass on the Mu's location?). Or they wanted some other information contained in the Beacons.

BTW, why are they called "beacons"? A beacon is a thing for navigation, for piloting ships. Communicating other information is only secondary use of it...

If anything, Shepard learnt about Ilos from Liara, while Saren sent troops to expend Liara.

Saremei wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They had to try the "Palpatine" before anything else. So that Saren would not lose his Spectre status over some ghostly artefact... And how did thay know about the Conduit in the first place?

Saren learned of the Conduit the same way Shepard learned about it.  It's quite clear in the story.  Saren was one step ahead at finding the beacons and using them, then getting the cipher from mr thorian to understand the whole message and where the Conduit was.  Saren knew the council and others would resist his plan. He didn't understand the effects of indoctrination until he studied it himself on virmire.

What? Shepard learns about the Conduit from Saren's propaganda/prophecy: "Eden Prime was a major victory, we're now one step closer to finding the Conduit!"

It's obvious Saren had been searching for the Conduit before the Eden Prime attack. The Beacon on his Virmire base had most probably been found by him earlier (even if it was moved to Virmire from someplace else). Benezia joined Saren several years before the Eden Prime.

Instead of going "Palpatine", Saren was looking for the Beacons, for the Cipher, bought a major share in "Binary Helix" to revive the Rachni queen. Hell, he put a lot of effort into finding the Conduit. Much more than any other (and more reliable) method of inflitrating the Citadel would require...

Saremei wrote...
Hell if you wanna ask why regarding something, why not ask why he didn't just go straight to the citadel himself when he was not under suspicion to manually control the citadel.  Surely Sovereign could give Saren some instructions to open the mass relay or some tech that could do it.  In the end all the questions just end up being pointless since it is the way it is because that's the story they wanted to tell. The amount of thought given to dissect the story is likely much more than the thought that went into making said story.

Well, if the story is made without a second though given to it, then it's a ****** poor story. And I heard the writers at BioWare are "professional writers", which kinda makes me think, that they can see the plotholes in their stories and can try to avoid at least the biggest ones.

[Zulu_DFA]

iakus wrote...

Saremei wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They had to try the "Palpatine" before anything else. So that Saren would not lose his Spectre status over some ghostly artefact... And how did thay know about the Conduit in the first place?

Saren learned of the Conduit the same way Shepard learned about it.  It's quite clear in the story.  Saren was one step ahead at finding the beacons and using them, then getting the cipher from mr thorian to understand the whole message and where the Conduit was.  Saren knew the council and others would resist his plan. He didn't understand the effects of indoctrination until he studied it himself on virmire.

Hell if you wanna ask why regarding something, why not ask why he didn't just go straight to the citadel himself when he was not under suspicion to manually control the citadel.  Surely Sovereign could give Saren some instructions to open the mass relay or some tech that could do it.  In the end all the questions just end up being pointless since it is the way it is because that's the story they wanted to tell. The amount of thought given to dissect the story is likely much more than the thought that went into making said story.

I always believed that Sovereign and Saren were trying to figure out what exactly the Prothean scientists did to block the signal.  Both Shepard and Saren were working on puzzles, just different ones, and Saren had a head start.  The beacon on Eden Prime was an important stroke of luck for both of them

This is denied by the Vigil's saying that Sovereign is able to manipulate the Citadel directly. After the invasion the Reapers would have all the time in the world to figure out what happened. If you want to watch a program on TV and find that your remote control is broken, you switch the TV on manually, watch the program, then fix you remote.

And Ilos could not have any clues to whatever the signal-jamming stuff the "12 scientists" did to the Keepers, as they never returned there.

In fact, Vigil does say that the Conduit is "the key", but it says nothing about how it is so critical. And a "back door" attack can not be so critical, it's just one of many options.

iakus wrote...

If Saren had managed to destroy the colony and the beacon, what exactly happened there would have remained a mystery.  Sure it might have had something to do with the beacon.  Maybe the Council would have eventually figured out it was a geth attack.  But a Spectre behind it?  Saren?  No way.  He would have found the Mu Relay, gone to Ilos, figured out what happened to the Keepers, and perhaps could have strolled back to the Citadel on his own. 

But Shepard stopped the destruction of Eden Prime, accessed the beacon, and gathered the evidence that implicated Saren.  Thus Saren had to do things "the hard way"

At that point Saren could not predict how soon he'd be able to reach the Conduit (if at all). Therefore, the attack on Eden Prime was foolhardy, unless the Conduit was critical. And I repeat, a "back door" attack is not critical. It's one of the options.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:32 .

[GnusmasTHX]

What I was saying is that if the Reapers programmed Vigil and planned Ilos/the Conduit... Why was Saren going off on finding clues to the location of the Conduit, when he should've known perfectly well where it was. The problem wouldn't have been finding it, it would've been getting to it, yet Saren clearly states that he's searching for the Conduit itself.



The entire game should've then been about finding someone or something that knew the location of the Mu Relay, rather than the Conduit itself.



Also Beacon is an appropriate name, just look at it, it was named by the present races anyway. More so it functioned as warning signal anyway, making the name even more appropriate.

[Zan51]

Beacon has many meanings. A beacon is an intentionally conspicuous device designed to attract attention to a specific location. WHich is what the one ion the game was for. But there is also these definitions.
[*]a fire (usually on a hill or tower) that can be seen from a distance
[*]radio beacon: a radio station that broadcasts a directional signal for navigational purposes [*]a tower with a light that gives warning of shoals to passing ships[/list]I think beacon was used very aptly.
As for Ilos, I assumed that apart from the hidden vaults and the scientists there, there was nothing to tell the Reapers there had been a secret installation there, secret I believe was inferred even to the majority of Protheans. Details of it were lost when the Reapers attacked the Citadel so neither Saren nor the Reapers knew about it until they followed the Beacon and Conduit trail/puzzle that Shepard was also following. No real mystery there. All this is said in the game by Vigil, who was only programmed by the Prothean scientists, not the Reapers as suggested somewhere above.

Modifié par Zan51, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[Zulu_DFA]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

What I was saying is that if the Reapers programmed Vigil and planned Ilos/the Conduit... Why was Saren going off on finding clues to the location of the Conduit, when he should've known perfectly well where it was. The problem wouldn't have been finding it, it would've been getting to it, yet Saren clearly states that he's searching for the Conduit itself.

The entire game should've then been about finding someone or something that knew the location of the Mu Relay, rather than the Conduit itself.

Also Beacon is an appropriate name, just look at it, it was named by the present races anyway. More so it functioned as warning signal anyway, making the name even more appropriate.

If you know that the Conduit is on Ilos, but don't know where is Ilos, then you don't know where is the Conduit. So you search for both Ilos and the Conduit. And when you say, that you are searching for the Conduit you imply that you're searching for Ilos. And Saren had begun his search before the start of ME1. The Rachni queen was a fortunate find, but he had to be looking for alternatives up until Benezia passed him the Mu's coordinates.

The Mass relays were built. Before they were built, the Reapers had to move around the Galaxy somehow, right? To put the relays in their places. The Beacons may as well be navigation devices based on pre-relay technology. Sovereign needed them to home on Ilos without the Mu Relay.

[Zan51]

Um, the beacons, according to Vigil, were placed to be a messaging sytem. When the surviving 12 scientists woke, as well as everything else, they used the beacons to send a warning to anyone still out there what the Reapers had done to the Protheans...

So the Beacons are Prothean devices, not much older Reaper tech to use as navigation aids when placing the Mass Relays. Besides, how did they get there to plant the beacons before they went there to plant the relays. Everyone has galaxy and star maps, who needs beacons as a navigation aid?  Most terrestrial nav beacons only say "Shallow Water ahead" or "I'm a lighthouse" now we have Sat Nav systems.

[Zulu_DFA]

Zan51 wrote...

As for Ilos, I assumed that apart from the hidden vaults and the scientists there, there was nothing to tell the Reapers there had been a secret installation there, secret I believe was inferred even to the majority of Protheans. Details of it were lost when the Reapers attacked the Citadel so neither Saren nor the Reapers knew about it until they followed the Beacon and Conduit trail/puzzle that Shepard was also following. No real mystery there. All this is said in the game by Vigil, who was only programmed by the Prothean scientists, not the Reapers as suggested somewhere above.

Not true.

This is the planet's description from the Galaxy map:

"In the golden age of the Protheans, Ilos was a verdant world, dotted with the spires and arches of magnificent cities. Even casual observation shows this is no longer the case. Ilos has been devastated by means unknown, its entire surface changed to the color of rust. The atmosphere shows heightened levels of oxygen. Wildfires, presumably ignited by lightning strikes, can be seen burning on the dark side. This indicates that most -- if not all -- respiring animal life forms have died off."

Magnificent cities, huh? So much for the secrecy. The gas giant in that system has debris of Helium-3 mining infrastracture in orbit. Doubtful the Reapers would miss such a developed system.


The "Ilos" entry in the Codex:

"Like the ancient human city of Troy, Ilos is a world known only through second-hand sources. References to Ilos have been found at several other Prothean ruins, though direct study of the world is unlikely to occur.

Ilos lies in a remote area of the Terminus Systems only accessible by the legendary Mu Relay. Four thousand years ago, the Mu Relay was knocked out of position by a supernova and lost. Since then, Ilos and its cluster have been inaccessible.
Occasionally, a university will organize an expedition to chart a route to Ilos using conventional FTL drive. These never get beyond the planning stages due to the distance and danger. The journey could take years or decades, passing through the hostile Terminus Systems and dozens of unexplored systems."

Zan51 wrote...
, according to Vigil,

In case you haven't noticed, I started this topic by claimimg that Vigil's story makes no sense. I say, Vigil is lying. (And even if it weren't lying, most of it's story would still be made of assumptions = not reliable).

OK, this is a most irrational argument in support of my theory, but still. BioWare is known to be geeky about the Greek mythology. The Codex entry draws an analogy between Ilos and Troy. Moreover, the dude by the name Ilos was the founder of ancient Troy. What do we have associated with Troy, except for the awful movie with Bred Pitt? The Troyan Horse. Which gave name to a class of malicious software. So, Shepard was given some unknown "datafile" on a "Troy" planet and put it into the Galaxy's most important computer. RRRRRight.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 septembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Midnight_Thirty]

Zulu_DFW:

I could only take a few pages before I had to respond to this, I'm very confused by your logic and your basic understanding of the ME1 plotline, which I think is fairly straightforward. I think possibly you are thinking too hard about this when it is actually quite simple.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to Citadel Control come from?

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel?

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council".

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

Alright, I'll go into a little brief backstory before I answer these questions:

-Ilos was a secret facility that studied the Mass Relay technology in an attempt by the protheans to duplicate it on their own.

-The Protheans had a breakthrough with the "conduit" nearly the same time as the Reaper's initial invation. During the invasion all evidence of Ilos was destroyed in order to hide the facility from the Reapers.

-Everyone on the Ilos research facility went into stasis in order to try and outlive and survive the Reaper genocide that was happening all around the galaxy at the time.

-The "12 scientists" were the only protheans left at the research facility after the Reapers had retreated back into deep space in order to "hibernate" once again for 50,000 years

- The remaining scientists knew that this was it for their civilization and so they came up with a plan to try and "stop the cycle" the best way they could. They took the one way conduit to the citadel (that was now completely empty) and re-purposed the keepers so they would not respond to the signal sent by Sovereign. They obviously had studied the citadel and the keepers extensively and could have possibly knew it was a relay, but did not know to what purpose.

-The beacons were instruments of instant communication that relayed information directly into the minds of other protheans. The beacon found on Eden Prime was a beacon with a distress signal from Ilos warning of the reapers and trying to contact survivors. The message was sent in a way that only protheans could understand.

-The "cipher" is actually the cultural knowlege of a prothean, that would allow understanding of the beacon message.


1.) The datafile contained the codes for limited access to the main controls of the Citadel. This is not all that unreasonable considering the citadel was known to have controls to open and shut the arms in time of invasion. The protheans obviously knew how to operate the citadel. Saren didn't need the access because Soverign most likely had intimate knowlege of the station which allowed Saren to access relay controls manually in order to bring back the rest of the Reapers.

2.) Like I said before, records were destroyed. The convinient thing about the citadel station is that it ends up being the "hub" for galactic civiliazion every cycle. Records of everything that happens in the galaxy is kept there i.e. colony locations, census information, etc. Knowledge is power for the Reapers, much like knowledge is the Shadow Broker's power.

3.) This isnt really relevant to the overall plotline, but may have some kind of importance in the future since all is not known about the protheans.

4.) I'm not sure what you are referring to here, for all we know vigil is still out there in a malfunctioning state issuing warning to any being not "indoctrinated" by a reaper. I saw no indication of vigil "dying", but being severely power deficient.

5.) Saren needed the conduit to get back door access to the Citadel in order to turn on the relay and bring back all of the Reapers. This was not plan A, this was plan B. The keepers did not open the relay like they had been programmed to do, because the protheans put a stop to that. Ilos was discovered by Saren after he got the beacon's message, and after he found the cipher. He then needed to find the Mu Relay in order to get to Ilos, and used the rachni's knowlege of the Mu Relay location.

6.) I'm not sure there would be much more to it, maybe more to the secrets of the keepers, but nothing more to the keeper's reaction to Sovereign's signal.

Now the response to the paragraph:

-The Mu Relay was only important to get to Ilos, and to use the conduit. The Protheans are the ones responsible for the current species chance against the Reapers, not the relocation of the Mu Relay because of a supernova.

-The Reapers did have more of a purpose than just "come, reap, return to base". They harvest a species that they deem worthy for "acension" into a reaper. The collectors are used for this, they put a species in a pod, download their "mind" into one collective consciousness, and then use their genetic material to meld with "synthetic" material (and an overruling AI) to construct another reaper. This explains why a reaper is both organic and synthetic.

-I think the Ilos connection to greek mythology is pretty obvious. The conduit i.e. the relay statue is the trojan horse.

I hope I answered all your questions clearly. I have an inclination that you are thinking too hard about this, and it's actually quite simple. There is not a lot of mystery surrounding this subject.

Modifié par Midnight_Thirty, 14 septembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[Zan51]

Liked that run down. Concise and clear and helped me too. Thanks, Midnight.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to Citadel Control come from?

They must have returned at least once to Ilos, The events must have happened in this order - Reapers return to dark space, Scientists wakes up on Ilos - Scientist travel to the citadel using a spacecraft and builds the relay monument - The monument is complete scientists returns to Ilos with files - Scientists enters the relay on Ilos.

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel?

Reapers are far from omnipotent and as Vigil explains all data about their base on Ilos was destroyed in the initial attack by the reapers.

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

The statues of the prothean does seem to depict them as somewhat biomechanical, Perhaps this was a state in their evolution as a species - they might have begun to blend flesh and machine on their own.

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

I see 3 possible answers.
1. It simply saved it's last remains of power in the hope to deliver it's message(as it did).
2. The council team send to investigate Vigil did so with orders to blow it up to preserve the status quo.
3. Vigil is still working and the council withholds this fact.

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council".

Sovereign didn't know what the conduit was, He had to find out before doing something else, What if it was some kind of trap made to blow up his brethren when he finally summoned them?

No he couldn't take that chance so he moved methodically, anyway he has plenty of time.

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

 
Maybe who knows.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:47 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

I hope I answered all your questions clearly. I have an inclination that you are thinking too hard about this, and it's actually quite simple. There is not a lot of mystery surrounding this subject.

No. You just rehearsed Vigil's story, which, even if told in its full VI honesty, was largely made of guesses, suppositions and assumptions. How can Vigil make judgement about Sovereign, how it even knows about Sovereign? You, as Shepard, at least interacted with Sovereign once.

But, as I've shown in the post above yours, Vigil's main point "Ilos was secret" is shattered in the game itself: in the planet description and in the Codex entry. Arcaheologists all around the Galaxy (including our friend Liara T'Soni) know about Ilos, as some remarkable Prothean place, and about the Mu Relay having been the access to it 50K years ago. And all that from just digging through the Prothean rubble, without even the need for the Beacons and the Cipher. How could the Reapers possibly be unaware of Ilos, when they "interacted" with the Protheans in person (aka datamined their brains)?

As for the Conduit being the "Horse", well, good point, but remember, it were the same guys that both built it and used it to get to those other unsuspecting guys.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:55 .