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[Zulu_DFA]

All right, short version 4 Page 4.



Vigil's tale inconsistent. - Vigil was lying. - Vigil was programmed by the Reapers. - All Protheans were "reaperified". - Sovereign always wanted to access Ilos. - But could not because the Mu Relay had been "knocked off" by a supernova. - Why the Repers did not predict the supernova? - Because it was "sudden death", like Haestrom's star. - Reapers are interested in Dark Energy.



Protheans were interested in early Humans. Reapers are interested in modern Humans. Back then the Protheans were made Reaper slaves. Mars cache was per Reapers plan of "cultivation the organic crops".

[Midnight_Thirty]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

I hope I answered all your questions clearly. I have an inclination that you are thinking too hard about this, and it's actually quite simple. There is not a lot of mystery surrounding this subject.

No. You just rehearsed Vigil's story, which, even if told in its full VI honesty, was largely made of guesses, suppositions and assumptions. How can Vigil make judgement about Sovereign, how it even knows about Sovereign? You, as Shepard, at least interacted with Sovereign once.

But, as I've shown in the post above yours, Vigil's main point "Ilos was secret" is shattered in the game itself: in the planet description and in the Codex entry. Arcaheologists all around the Galaxy (including our friend Liara T'Soni) know about Ilos, as some remarkable Prothean place, and about the Mu Relay having been the access to it 50K years ago. And all that from just digging through the Prothean rubble, without even the need for the Beacons and the Cipher. How could the Reapers possibly be unaware of Ilos, when they "interacted" with the Protheans in person (aka datamined their brains)?

As for the Conduit being the "Horse", well, good point, but remember, it were the same guys that both built it and used it to get to those other unsuspecting guys.

I'm not aware of any assumptions made about sovereign, only that the Reapers most likely left one of their own back to allow for monitoring galactic civilization until they are worthy for acension.

Codex entry about Ilos:
     Like the ancient human city of Troy, Ilos is a world known only through second-hand sources. References to Ilos have been found at several other Prothean ruins, though direct study of the world is unlikely to occur.
     
     Ilos lies in a remote area of the Terminus Systems only accessible by the legendary Mu Relay.
Four thousand years ago, the Mu Relay was knocked out of position by a
supernova and lost. Since then, Ilos and its cluster have been
inaccessible.
     Occasionally, a university will organize an expedition to chart a route to Ilos using conventional FTL
drive. These never get beyond the planning stages due to the distance
and danger. The journey could take years or decades, passing through
the hostile Terminus Systems and dozens of unexplored systems.



"Only through second-hand sources" is the key phrase here, dictating that Ilos was only known by references and not first hand knowlege. The secret facility was NOT known about. The whole reason of starting at the citadel is to gain access to valuable records of civilization. They may have eradicated all life on Ilos (it was a big planet) but they never found the "secret facility" that turned out to haunt them.

Obviously the only protheans that knew about the facility on Ilos, were in fact, the protheans in stasis and none of them were "datamined"

The Reapers always could have had access to Ilos during the Prothean eradication, and even Sovereign up until 4000 years ago. 4000 years ago was 42,000 years after the Protheans had been wiped out. It makes no sense that "all of a sudden" Sovereign wanted access to it even though he/it had access to it for so long. Mu Relay being knocked away is only relevant to the current species in the galaxy as they had never been able to "study" Ilos, because they could not reach it.

It is not logical that Virgil is a Reaper program.

Modifié par Midnight_Thirty, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

I hope I answered all your questions clearly. I have an inclination that you are thinking too hard about this, and it's actually quite simple. There is not a lot of mystery surrounding this subject.

No. You just rehearsed Vigil's story, which, even if told in its full VI honesty, was largely made of guesses, suppositions and assumptions. How can Vigil make judgement about Sovereign, how it even knows about Sovereign? You, as Shepard, at least interacted with Sovereign once.

But, as I've shown in the post above yours, Vigil's main point "Ilos was secret" is shattered in the game itself: in the planet description and in the Codex entry. Arcaheologists all around the Galaxy (including our friend Liara T'Soni) know about Ilos, as some remarkable Prothean place, and about the Mu Relay having been the access to it 50K years ago. And all that from just digging through the Prothean rubble, without even the need for the Beacons and the Cipher. How could the Reapers possibly be unaware of Ilos, when they "interacted" with the Protheans in person (aka datamined their brains)?

As for the Conduit being the "Horse", well, good point, but remember, it were the same guys that both built it and used it to get to those other unsuspecting guys.

I'm not aware of any assumptions made about sovereign, only that the Reapers most likely left one of their own back to allow for monitoring galactic civilization until they are worthy for acension.

Codex entry about Ilos:
     Like the ancient human city of Troy, Ilos is a world known only through second-hand sources. References to Ilos have been found at several other Prothean ruins, though direct study of the world is unlikely to occur.
     
     Ilos lies in a remote area of the Terminus Systems only accessible by the legendary Mu Relay.
Four thousand years ago, the Mu Relay was knocked out of position by a
supernova and lost. Since then, Ilos and its cluster have been
inaccessible.
     Occasionally, a university will organize an expedition to chart a route to Ilos using conventional FTL
drive. These never get beyond the planning stages due to the distance
and danger. The journey could take years or decades, passing through
the hostile Terminus Systems and dozens of unexplored systems.



"Only through second-hand sources" is the key phrase here, dictating that Ilos was only known by references and not first hand knowlege. The secret facility was NOT known about. The whole reason of starting at the citadel is to gain access to valuable records of civilization. They may have eradicated all life on Ilos (it was a big planet) but they never found the "secret facility" that turned out to haunt them.

Obviously the only protheans that knew about the facility on Ilos, were in fact, the protheans in stasis and none of them were "datamined"

The "second hand sources" means "dig sites". But 50K years ago the dig sites were Prothean cities full of healthy Protheans, who made references to Ilos, which have been now uncovered by Liara and other archaelogists. in other words, at the time of the last Reaper invasion those were the first hand sources. Ilos was, in fact, so widely known in the Prothean Empire, that even now, 50K years after it was turned into rubble, the archaeologists can infer that it's a place worthy of visiting, in only out of scietific curiosity. Unfortuntely, Ilos was connected via the Mu Relay, that got lost. Still, the information about Ilos is so ample that the scientists have been able to approximately designate the region of the galactic space, where Ilos is located, and only the political instability of the Terminus Systems has prevented them (but not Saren) from conducting the search for it without the Mu Relay.

And this notion that the Reapers could eradicate Ilos and only miss the "secret facility" is nonsense, because it's right there under the open sky, and the Normandy's sensors, (that aren't supposedly as good as Reapers' sensors) can detect from orbit much smaller compounds, even underground ones, at least as "anomalies". So no, The "secret facility" could not escape the common fate of the Protheans.

And the Mu Relay was lost during the time Sovereign was resting in that crater on a planet in the Dis system (or whatever), so it was an unpleasant surprise for it.

As to Sovereign being merely a "sentinel", here to determine the ripeness of the organic "crop" for the Reapers, it's also not supported by other data. The extinctions are known to occure in a regular pattern, at the same intervals of approx. 50K years. But that impossible, if the Reapers were just wating for the organics to ripe. Sometimes it would take a shorter period of time, sometimes, and arguably much more often than not, it would take longer. Hence, conclusion: the Reapers have to actively maintain the Cycle. And we, in fact, know that they have been doing that through the Collectors. They monitored the state of the organic civilizations, and even occasionally provided some fancy tech upgrades to them, making it look like it was just mutually beneficial commerce. Sovereign's role in all this is no so clear. It almost seems like Sovereign was... rogue.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[Midnight_Thirty]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


The "second hand sources" means "dig sites". But 50K years ago the dig sites were Prothean cities full of healthy Protheans, who made references to Ilos, which have been now uncovered by Liara and other archaelogists. in other words, at the time of the last Reaper invasion those were the first hand sources. Ilos was, in fact, so widely known in the Prothean Empire, that even now, 50K years after it was turned into rubble, the archaeologists can infer that it's a place worthy of visiting, in only out of scietific curiosity. Unfortuntely, Ilos was connected via the Mu Relay, that got lost. Still, the information about Ilos is so ample that the scientists have been able to approximately designate the region of the galactic space, where Ilos is located, and only the political instability of the Terminus Systems has prevented them (but not Saren) from conducting the search for it without the Mu Relay.

And this notion that the Reapers could eradicate Ilos and only miss the "secret facility" is nonsense, because it's right there under the open sky, and the Normandy's sensors, (that aren't supposedly as good as Reapers' sensors) can detect from orbit much smaller compounds, even underground ones, at least as "anomalies". So no, The "secret facility" could not escape the common fate of the Protheans.

And the Mu Relay was lost during the time Sovereign was resting in that crater on a planet in the Dis system (or whatever), so it was an unpleasant surprise for it.

As to Sovereign being merely a "sentinel", here to determine the ripeness of the organic "crop" for the Reapers, it's also not supported by other data. The extinctions are known to occure in a regular pattern, at the same intervals of approx. 50K years. But that impossible, if the Reapers were just wating for the organics to ripe. Sometimes it would take a shorter period of time, sometimes, and arguably much more often than not, it would take longer. Hence, conclusion: the Reapers have to actively maintain the Cycle. And we, in fact, know that they have been doing that through the Collectors. They monitored the state of the organic civilizations, and even occasionally provided some fancy tech upgrades to them, making it look like it was just mutually beneficial commerce. Sovereign's role in all this is no so clear. It almost seems like Sovereign was... rogue.

-Everything you stated in the first paragraph is exactly right, Ilos was a huge hub of Prothean civilization, like a "New York City" if you will. Every prothean knew about this planet's existence, but what they didn't know was the secret research facility. That is the point you are missing, this was a secret facility among the other planetary existence. This research facility was not the sole purpose of Ilos, the research facility was merely located there.

-We know for a fact that the research facility was within a sealed bunker on Ilos. It was not out in plain sight. We also know that the Reapers assaulted Ilos and eradicated all the prothean life on that planet, missing the research facility. This little mistake allowed the 12 remaining scientists left (after the Reapers had retreated through the citadel relay back into deep space) to sabotage the keepers in order to "break the cycle" of Reaper genocide. That, to me, is plain as day. Just because you don't think it would be plausible that the Reapers would miss this facility doesn't change the fact that they did. It's not a grand conspiracy. It happened. It happened because that's how the writers have presented it in the Mass Effect canon. The Protheans are the reason every current species has a chance against the Reapers. The Reapers are cut off from the Galaxy, stuck in deep space with a relay that will not bring them back to the citadel. 

-The Keepers were altered, ignored the signal, and caused Sovereign to come up with another plan. That plan involved Saren, which actually changed a couple of times based upon Shepards actions. The beacon, the cipher, the conduit, and the research facility on Ilos are all connected. He needed every piece to carry out the plan. Hand over the citadel controls to Sovereign, which he would have if it was not for Shepard. Vigil only served the purpose to tie the rest of the plot together at the end. We finally realized what Saren's intentions were at that point.

-As for the extinction at regular intervals, it is possible, because the Reapers make it possible. They manipulate the rate at which the galactic population advances. Like Sovereign says in his Virmire speech "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relays, our technology, by using it your society develops along the paths that we desire". They control the rate of the galactic evolution, then harvest approx. every 50,000 years. Galactic civilization is their crop. Think about how a cornfield is genetically enhanced to serve the needs of a farmer.. The farmer plants and harvests upon a regular cycle, controlling how the corn develops. The Reapers have developed a "farming" technique that suits their needs. Sovereign was the "vanguard" left behind to monitor this development, he was the "farmer".

-The Leviathan of Dis has never been confirmed as Sovereign, but we do know that it was a genetically engineered spaceship, so I think it is an interesting possibility.

[ifander]

Interesting thread, although I really doubt Bioware would come up with such a convoluted and, frankly, far-fetched plot as Zulu is suggesting. Here's how I see it:

- Soverign attempts to activate the Citadel relay, but fails. It then investigates the reason why, by using various more or less indoctrinated agents, Saren being the latest. Soverign, being an eternal machine, is in no rush to figure this out though; it can afford patience. So instead of rushing the Citadel and activating the relay, which would be risky to say the least, it chooses to investigate the malfunction.

- Soverign and Saren are working on activating the relay, and figuring out what went wrong initially. How they intend to activate it though is unknown. By the time the Eden Prime beacon is found, Saren has already discovered what the Conduit is (judging by the audio recording of Saren and Benezia). However, it's probable that Saren/Soverign never intended to use the Conduit. As long as Saren's cover is intact, there's no need to use a backdoor. As I see it, the discovery of the second beacon forced Saren's hand. Soverign and Saren probably decided that the risk of it revealing the truth about the Prothean extinction was too great, so they decided to destroy it. And that's when Plan A, whatever it was, got screwed by Shepard's intervention. Now Saren is a fugitive, his cover blown. And they are forced to use the brute force approach, and find the Conduit. 

What follows then is pretty much what is told in the game. Interesting as Zulu's theory may be, there's no real evidence of it being true other than pure circumstance.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to the Citadel mainframe come from?

It is not an anti-Reaper datafile, it is a file which grants temporary control of the Citadel to the user. It's safe to assume the Protheans knew more about the Citadel than we do, and so knew enough to be able to create such a datafile. It's even possible Vigil itself wrote the datafile, it could have had the necessary information in its databases.

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Prothans being extinct.

I'll admit this one is a bit harder to explain. The explanation given by Vigil is that all knowledge of the Ilos research facility was wiped out in the initial Reaper assault. It being a top-secret facility made it easier to cover its tracks. However this does not explain why the planet itself looks like some sort of holocaust had occurred. I find it unlikely that the Reapers would destroy the planet yet fail to find the bunker and all the Protheans hidden within. My guess? Plothole. The explanation given by Vigil holds so long as you don't analyse it too much. Frankly, I find it more probable that the writers couldn't figure out a good explanation rather than it being a Reaper conspiracy.

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe it's the husks who are modeled after the Protheans? As someone else stated earlier, it's possible the Protheans were experimenting with bio-synthetic fusion or whatever by the time the Reapers arrived.

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

Its batteries ran out? Look at the average cell phone. When the low-battery warning goes off, the phone will still work for a while as long as you don't use it, but try to call someone and it will run out of juice within minutes. Vigil depleted its remaining power reserves speaking to Shepard. Or perhaps the hardware failed; it had been idling for 50000 years after all.

5. What was that Saren/Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council". And even then, infiltrating the Citadel in a more customary fashion would be a more reliable and subtle plan.

As I explained at the beginning of my post, it probably was a secondary option. The discovery of the second beacon forced Saren/Soverign to take rash action in order to prevent the truth about the Reapers being revealed. With Saren's treason out in the open, the safest way to co-opt the Citadel would be the Conduit.

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

Well... there could be "something more" to just about everything in every story written. Doesn't really prove anything.

I might as well state the obvious here though. Ever heard of Occam's Razor? If Vigil is indeed a Reaper creation it would make far more sense for it to simply trap Shepard on Ilos. All it would take is for it to stall Shepard for a few hours. Saren would have all the time he needs to activate the relay.

Modifié par ifander, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:17 .

[TuringPoint]

I will offer what would be the most obvious counter arguments to these questions.  It doesn't seem like you've tried really hard to see the other possibilities, and treat all your own arguments as if they have completely rhetorical answers, but I digress.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to the Citadel mainframe come from?

The data file you upload to the Citadel mainframe is either a direct copy of the original file the scientists uploaded to the Citadel to corrupt the signal to the Keepers, a minor alteration thereof, or a contingency file developed by the prothean scientists before they entered the relay.  Or even a contingency the VI itself developed, or helped to develop.  Plenty of possible explanations.  

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Prothans being extinct.

This, however, is more interesting to me.  Regarding the Conduit:  I would be tempted to say it's because the Protheans built it after the extinction, BUT, how did they get the conduit on the Citadel in that case?  The relay would've had to be built before their extinction.  I think that's what you're going for?

I guess Bioware's explanation would be:  The Conduit was such a big secret that few knew the true nature of it, assuming it was just a statue, like the races that came after.  Because indoctrinated servants have progressively reducing faculties, and presumably the Reapers were too arrogant to think anyone could've unlocked the relay technology, and the reapers couldn't walk through the station themselves, the Conduit managed to go unnoticed.  

Ilos might not be a big secret - what they were working on, and how to get to Ilos, apparently is more of a secret.

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

My theory - they do like similarly creepy as husks, but I think the featureless, creepiness of the statues is more due to natural weather damage than anything else.

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

A plausible explanation is that the conduit itself would run off the same energy source as Vigil and the rest of the complex, and the conduit likely used a great deal of energy.  Note that there was a minimal time limit for hitting the conduit before it shut down.  This implies the relay had a limited energy source.   Also note that Vigil mentions that it had control of the facility's power grid.  And note that a machine uses a lot less energy staying dormant than when it is using a facility's energy grid to power massive relays, or for that matter to process information and react quickly, 

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council". And even then, infiltrating the Citadel in a more customary fashion would be a more reliable and subtle plan.

Keep in mind that the Reapers may, as you suggest, very well have an inkling of what the Conduit is, despite the Protheans taking whatever measures to hide knowledge of it.  It's quite likely they did, in fact - they just needed a willing agent to uncover it.

Indoctrination takes a long time, if you want the servant to keep their faculties.  It also requires the presence of the Reaper.  The Reapers are too big themselves to go onto the Citadel and access the systems in the necessary manner, which normally the Keepers would do for them, so they need an indoctrinated agent with most of its faculties.  So they wait for the most likely, influential person to come by - Saren - and use him.  And then the first army they have is the Geth, and why would you bother indoctrinating anyone else when you have the Geth already?

The Reapers want the invasion to start as soon as possible. Finding the backdoor diversion, and using the resources of an army (the Geth) that would die for the cause without needing to be indoctrinate is perhaps most expedient.  Also, unravelling the mystery of the conduit is an important goal for the Reapers, to make sure it can't be used against them in the future.  Keep in mind that this plan, when first begun, didn't account for anyone finding out about it.  Once someone had found out about it, they couldn't come out with the very flagship Saren was accused of launching an attack on Eden Prime with and expect the races to accept it.  Parking it in front of the Citadel so it could indoctrinate everyone on it, would take a long time, and would be highly suspicious, because the indoctrination has noticeable effects.  So do you bring in the Geth army before they do?

So, how is your idea about the conduit more reliable than just assaulting the Citadel with a completely superior force, breaking down the functioning within using the Conduit and in space using Sovereign and the Geth?

Again, consider the conduit.  The conduit needed to be dealt with to ensure Reaper dominance, that no one would figure it out, whatever it was, and use it again.  They also wanted to use the Geth because they are machines, so they would possibly replace the Keepers.

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

I don't even know what you're getting at here.  In fact, the point you seem to be making - that there "is more" to it, has only connotations of making the whole reasoning of everything that's been happening more convoluted.  Why would Sovereign then attack the Citadel with a Geth army if there were no need to do so?  

Modifié par Alocormin, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Midnight_Thirty wrote...

-We know for a fact that the research facility was within a sealed bunker on Ilos. It was not out in plain sight. We also know that the Reapers assaulted Ilos and eradicated all the prothean life on that planet, missing the research facility. This little mistake allowed the 12 remaining scientists left (after the Reapers had retreated through the citadel relay back into deep space) to sabotage the keepers in order to "break the cycle" of Reaper genocide. That, to me, is plain as day. Just because you don't think it would be plausible that the Reapers would miss this facility doesn't change the fact that they did. It's not a grand conspiracy. It happened. It happened because that's how the writers have presented it in the Mass Effect canon. The Protheans are the reason every current species has a chance against the Reapers. The Reapers are cut off from the Galaxy, stuck in deep space with a relay that will not bring them back to the citadel.
[/quote]

Vigil: "Ilos was spared".

And right it is. It's better to lie that the whole of Ilos was missed by the Reapers, than just single most important spot on Ilos, with a mini mass-relay, and a power source that would last for 50 millennia without recharge.


[quote]Midnight_Thirty wrote...
Sovereign was the "vanguard" left behind to monitor this development, he was the "farmer".
[/quote]
Sovereign wasn't "farming". The Collectors were doing it. Sovereign, according to Legion, was looking for allies. It's not the same.





[quote] ifander wrote...
- Soverign and Saren are working on activating the relay, and figuring out what went wrong initially. How they intend to activate it though is unknown. By the time the Eden Prime beacon is found, Saren has already discovered what the Conduit is (judging by the audio recording of Saren and Benezia). However, it's probable that Saren/Soverign never intended to use the Conduit. As long as Saren's cover is intact, there's no need to use a backdoor. As I see it, the discovery of the second beacon forced Saren's hand. Soverign and Saren probably decided that the risk of it revealing the truth about the Prothean extinction was too great, so they decided to destroy it. And that's when Plan A, whatever it was, got screwed by Shepard's intervention. Now Saren is a fugitive, his cover blown. And they are forced to use the brute force approach, and find the Conduit.
[/quote]

Thank you for this sensible post. I think, it's first that's not just rehearsing the Vigil's BS. Actually, I though the same for a long time, up until the Collectors were revealed to be former Protheans and a part of the Reapers' plan to come back. But once you think about it, the Collectors don't seem like they are a contingency plan. They seem like they are Plan A...

Anyway, the attack on Eden Prime does not make sense as a simple cover up. I've already pointed out, that letting the Alliance/Council have the Beacon as another piece of Prothean junk was a safer course than drawing their attention to it by forcibly denying them access to it. Sovereign had to be genuinely interested in the Beacon. And if it were just interested what the heck happened to the Keepers, it would first of all use Saren to do the necessary research on the Citadel, maybe even legally, afteк using Benezia to convince the Council to give approval to a single promising research project.

Again, Saren's search for the Conduit, which, as you notice yourself, began before the Eden Prime disaster, was totally redundant, if Sovereign was able to hack the Citadel on its own (as Vigil tries to sell it to you).


[quote]ifander wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to the Citadel mainframe come from?[/quote]

It is not an anti-Reaper datafile, it is a file which grants temporary control of the Citadel to the user. It's safe to assume the Protheans knew more about the Citadel than we do, and so knew enough to be able to create such a datafile. It's even possible Vigil itself wrote the datafile, it could have had the necessary information in its databases.
[/quote]
Yet, by the time Shepard caught up with Saren, Sovereign was already interfaced with the Citadel. Saren had hit the "confirm connection" button, and was protecting the console. But Shepard killed Saren (or maybe made Saren shoot himself), and, using the "datafile", swayed the control away from Sovereign! The "datafile" was anti-Reaper.



[quote]ifander wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Prothans being extinct.[/quote]

I'll admit this one is a bit harder to explain. The explanation given by Vigil is that all knowledge of the Ilos research facility was wiped out in the initial Reaper assault. It being a top-secret facility made it easier to cover its tracks. However this does not explain why the planet itself looks like some sort of holocaust had occurred. I find it unlikely that the Reapers would destroy the planet yet fail to find the bunker and all the Protheans hidden within. My guess? Plothole. The explanation given by Vigil holds so long as you don't analyse it too much. Frankly, I find it more probable that the writers couldn't figure out a good explanation rather than it being a Reaper conspiracy.
[/quote]
They could easily have written it all so that the "Conduit Project" occured not in a major nexus of the Prothean empire but on some really desolate planet, like those you fough gangsters and Cerberus cells on. These did look like they at least tried to maintain secrecy. And the Beacons' "message" could have been written to lead to that desolate planet just like it led to Ilos.


[quote]ifander wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?
[/quote]

Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe it's the husks who are modeled after the Protheans? As someone else stated earlier, it's possible the Protheans were experimenting with bio-synthetic fusion or whatever by the time the Reapers arrived.
[/quote]
Why would the Reapers model Human husks after Protheans? In any case, those tentacles/tubes in the faces of the statues are sort of body horror stuff.


[quote]ifander wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?
[/quote]

Its batteries ran out? Look at the average cell phone. When the low-battery warning goes off, the phone will still work for a while as long as you don't use it, but try to call someone and it will run out of juice within minutes. Vigil depleted its remaining power reserves speaking to Shepard. Or perhaps the hardware failed; it had been idling for 50000 years after all.
[/quote]
Very convinient, nuff said.


[quote]ifander wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
5. What was that Saren/Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council". And even then, infiltrating the Citadel in a more customary fashion would be a more reliable and subtle plan.
[/quote]

As I explained at the beginning of my post, it probably was a secondary option. The discovery of the second beacon forced Saren/Soverign to take rash action in order to prevent the truth about the Reapers being revealed. With Saren's treason out in the open, the safest way to co-opt the Citadel would be the Conduit.
[/quote]
Saren was a Spectre, one of the best and most trusted by the Council. But instead of going "Palpatine", patiently studying the Keepers, or smuggling Geth and heavy weapons to the Wards, he searched for the Conduit. Even before the Eden Prime Beacon was unearthed. When it was unearthed, Saren took risk to attack Eden Prime, knowing that even if it were a success, the Council might take notice of the Beacon's importance, while if the Beacon was taken by the Council without interference they wouldn't be able to figure out how to use it, or how important it was.


[quote]ifander wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote..
6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?
[/quote]

Well... there could be "something more" to just about everything in every story written. Doesn't really prove anything.
[/quote]
Well... if you take that Shorban's e-mail, you'll see, that it actually confirms everything Vigil more or less "guessed" about the Keepers, and says nothing about what Vigil sold you for fact, namely, that the "12 scientists" tinkered with the Keepers and managed to switch their "receivers" off.


[quote]ifander wrote...
I might as well state the obvious here though. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
[/quote]
Yes. It favors the simplest working explanation, not the simplest explanation (which is universal and looks like <- this). I say, that Vigil's explanation is not working, so you'll have to put the Razor away for a while.


[quote]ifander wrote...
If Vigil is indeed a Reaper creation it would make far more sense for it to simply trap Shepard on Ilos. All it would take is for it to stall Shepard for a few hours. Saren would have all the time he needs to activate the relay.[/quote]
Instead, it manipulated Shepard into uploading some unknown "datafile" to the Citadel's mainframe, which helped to take control away from a Reaper - something that can not be possible, if you go by Vigil's own tale.



And a bit of a bonus here:





Take a good long look at these two pics. Imagine the motion of the moving parts. Ponder.

[TuringPoint]

*sigh*

Then the little blue monkeys run out of my...

Well, there are little blue monkeys in this game, right?  Asari?  Assari?  

Hmm, it's a conspiracy.

Yup.

Modifié par Alocormin, 15 septembre 2010 - 02:26 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Alocormin wrote...

*sigh*

Then the little blue monkeys run out of my...

Well, there are little blue monkeys in this game, right?  Asari?  Assari?  

Hmm, it's a conspiracy.

Yup.

Monkeys or not, Vigil is awfully quick to agree with the Reapers, when it comes it our ability to understand them, and discourages it. True, stopping the Reapers sounds like a good idea regardless, but why would a little more insight in what makes them tick hurt? If anything, it isn't too genre-savvy for a Good Guy to say that.

[Midnight_Thirty]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Vigil: "Ilos was spared".

And right it is. It's better to lie that the whole of Ilos was missed by the Reapers, than just single most important spot on Ilos, with a mini mass-relay, and a power source that would last for 50 millennia without recharge.

-Go back and listen to what Vigil is saying to you in context...."While the Prothean Empire came crashing down, Ilos was spared"...."The facility went dark, and our personnel retreated underground into these archives".Vigil was referring to the underground bunker when using "Ilos"

This is Ilos' planetary description:

"In the golden age of the Protheans, Ilos[/b]
was a verdant world, dotted with the spires and arches of magnificent
cities. Even casual observation shows this is no longer the case. Ilos
has been devastated by means unknown, its entire surface changed to the
color of rust. The atmosphere shows heightened levels of oxygen.
Wildfires, presumably ignited by lightning strikes, can be seen burning
on the dark side. This indicates that most –— if not all — respiring
animal life forms have died off."


Whether or not the Reapers had a hand in this is no longer relevant, Ilos has been destroyed. The underground bunker stayed intact (maybe by some divine miracle, who knows) The 12 scientists were all that remained, thus setting in motion the events of Mass Effect 1

Sovereign wasn't "farming". The Collectors were doing it. Sovereign, according to Legion, was looking for allies. It's not the same.

After it was discovered that the keepers had not responded to Sovereign's signal to activate the citadel relay, Sovereign was seeking allies while formulating a plan to gain direct access to the citadel, he was not Rogue. You are arguing a point that I do not disagree with. You should go back and read my analogy for Sovereign as a "farmer", maybe I should change the title to "caretaker" as to not confuse. The Collectors are obviously tools of the Reapers. A plow and a field worker are also tools, but the "farmer" is the one that owns the land that the workers are working for. That is what I mean by "farmer"

ifander wrote...
- Soverign and Saren are working on activating the relay, and figuring out what went wrong initially. How they intend to activate it though is unknown. By the time the Eden Prime beacon is found, Saren has already discovered what the Conduit is (judging by the audio recording of Saren and Benezia). However, it's probable that Saren/Soverign never intended to use the Conduit. As long as Saren's cover is intact, there's no need to use a backdoor. As I see it, the discovery of the second beacon forced Saren's hand. Soverign and Saren probably decided that the risk of it revealing the truth about the Prothean extinction was too great, so they decided to destroy it. And that's when Plan A, whatever it was, got screwed by Shepard's intervention. Now Saren is a fugitive, his cover blown. And they are forced to use the brute force approach, and find the Conduit.

All of this is exactly what I have been explaining the entire time. Protheans foil Sovereign's initial plans, Saren's plans are continuously foiled by Shepard. Cause and effect.

[Zulu_DFA]

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

All of this is exactly what I have been explaining the entire time. Protheans foil Sovereign's initial plans, Saren's plans are continuously foiled by Shepard. Cause and effect.

Only Saren's plans made no sense.

OK, just say it "I believe Vigil to the word". Although only its some of its "guesses" are confirmed, while the "factual part" is not supported by anything.

But don't be astonished when in ME3 the Keepers come firing at you!

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Alocormin wrote...

*sigh*

Then the little blue monkeys run out of my...

Well, there are little blue monkeys in this game, right?  Asari?  Assari?  

Hmm, it's a conspiracy.

Yup.

they're sentient blue sheep-donkey mermaid people with nice boobs and asses

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Zulu_DFA wrote...






Take a good long look at these two pics. Imagine the motion of the moving parts. Ponder.

vigil is a reaper., that's why he stop functioning when the council looked into him... 

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[ifander]

Sorry in advance about the wall of text. Most of this is based off educated guesses and logical assumptions, and should be treated as such.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]ifander wrote...
- Sovereign and Saren are working on activating the relay, and figuring out what went wrong initially. How they intend to activate it though is unknown. By the time the Eden Prime beacon is found, Saren has already discovered what the Conduit is (judging by the audio recording of Saren and Benezia). However, it's probable that Saren/Sovereign never intended to use the Conduit. As long as Saren's cover is intact, there's no need to use a backdoor. As I see it, the discovery of the second beacon forced Saren's hand. Sovereign and Saren probably decided that the risk of it revealing the truth about the Prothean extinction was too great, so they decided to destroy it. And that's when Plan A, whatever it was, got screwed by Shepard's intervention. Now Saren is a fugitive, his cover blown. And they are forced to use the brute force approach, and find the Conduit.
[/quote]

Thank you for this sensible post. I think, it's first that's not just rehearsing the Vigil's BS. Actually, I though the same for a long time, up until the Collectors were revealed to be former Protheans and a part of the Reapers' plan to come back. But once you think about it, the Collectors don't seem like they are a contingency plan. They seem like they are Plan A...
[/quote]

I think this is a case of over-analysing the obvious (no offence). In ME Shepard screwed up Sovereign's plan. This plan would probably have involved a) figuring out why the citadel failed to respond to the activation signal, figuring out what other possible failures might exist and c) activating the Citadel relay. Remember, Sovereign is a sentient machine which (presumably) has existed for millions of years. It would not rush things unless it was supremely confident in the outcome of its actions.

So it would be thorough, take its time so that when the time comes to activate the relay it wouldn't attach itself to the Citadel only for it to not work as intended. And in order to improve its chances of success, it uses the Geth. I'm thinking that the Geth were initially intended to serve as a decoy, launching an increasing amount of attacks on Citadel space in order to thin out the Citadel fleets. In the midst of this chaos, Sovereign would launch its attack and activate the relay.

Trying to figure out what went wrong, Saren finds the first Beacon. We don't know when Saren found this beacon, it could have been years prior to the events of ME. But when the second beacon is found it introduces a possible disruption into Sovereigns plan. And we cannot discount Saren in all this. His intentions were initially to make some sort of deal with the Reapers, to prove the usefulness of organics, perhaps even to stop them. And we can see in ME:Redemption that the Reapers can be manipulated by their subjects, to an extent. It's probable that Saren would have done all he could to stall Sovereign and his plans. This could explain why it took so long. Perhaps Saren himself suggested that they investigate every possible lead, seemingly to make sure nothing goes wrong, but actually trying to find some way to stop the invasion. It would make sense that Saren would have tried to stop the Reapers before giving in. There's even the possibility that Saren sabotaged Sovereign plans as much as he could without revealing his duplicity, and was trying to make sure Shepard catches up to him and stops the Reapers. Crazy, I know.

Anywho, in ME2 Shepard stops the Collectors from creating a three-eyed terminator. Now, one could argue that this was the plan all along, to create a human Reaper. I don't. The more sensible conclusion would be that the Collectors are just one part of the Reapers overarching plan, and have been for every cycle prior to this one. Mind you, I'm not saying they're Plan A. Them being Protheans is of no significance either, because in earlier cycles the Reapers would have created Collectors from whatever race they eradicated. Perhaps the Reapers only create a new army of Collectors when a genetically superior race has evolved. Perhaps whatever race was turned into the Collectors prior to the Protheans had been used for multiple cycles, and was replaced by the superior Protheans. Who knows?

As to the primary purpose of the Collectors, it could be any number of things. Having a capable, controllable force handy in case something goes FUBAR makes sense. Perhaps their primary purpose is to sample the existing races prior to the invasion, finding those "worthy of ascension". One could say the Collectors are the Reapers handymen. It is stated however that the Collectors (and in extension, Reapers) don't shift their focus to humanity until after the destruction of Sovereign. If Humanity had the attention of those infinately greater ever since the Protheans were studying us from Mars, wouldn't the focus had been on Humanity from day one?

[quote]Zulu-DFA wrote...
Anyway, the attack on Eden Prime does not make sense as a simple cover up. I've already pointed out, that letting the Alliance/Council have the Beacon as another piece of Prothean junk was a safer course than drawing their attention to it by forcibly denying them access to it. Sovereign had to be genuinely interested in the Beacon. And if it were just interested what the heck happened to the Keepers, it would first of all use Saren to do the necessary research on the Citadel, maybe even legally, afte? using Benezia to convince the Council to give approval to a single promising research project.

Again, Saren's search for the Conduit, which, as you notice yourself, began before the Eden Prime disaster, was totally redundant, if Sovereign was able to hack the Citadel on its own (as Vigil tries to sell it to you).
[/quote]

I'm not sure I follow here. The only reason for attacking Eden Prime was the Beacon. Sovereign doesn't know what information it contains until Saren uses it. For all he knew it could have contained a totally believable and understandable explanation of what happened to the Protheans. That would be bad news for Sovereign. And, as I said, Sovereign is a sentient machine. Rushing the Citadel without knowing exactly what went wrong would be rash, and would not fit the modus operandi of a Reaper.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]ifander wrote...
It is not an anti-Reaper datafile, it is a file which grants temporary control of the Citadel to the user. It's safe to assume the Protheans knew more about the Citadel than we do, and so knew enough to be able to create such a datafile. It's even possible Vigil itself wrote the datafile, it could have had the necessary information in its databases.
[/quote]
Yet, by the time Shepard caught up with Saren, Sovereign was already interfaced with the Citadel. Saren had hit the "confirm connection" button, and was protecting the console. But Shepard killed Saren (or maybe made Saren shoot himself), and, using the "datafile", swayed the control away from Sovereign! The "datafile" was anti-Reaper.
[/quote]

Oh? I always interpreted this as Saren "minimizing" whatever he was doing, so he could stop Shepard and then pick up from where he left off. I don't think Sovereign ever had control. Besides, it's never plainly stated one way or another in the game.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]ifander wrote...
I'll admit this one is a bit harder to explain. The explanation given by Vigil is that all knowledge of the Ilos research facility was wiped out in the initial Reaper assault. It being a top-secret facility made it easier to cover its tracks. However this does not explain why the planet itself looks like some sort of holocaust had occurred. I find it unlikely that the Reapers would destroy the planet yet fail to find the bunker and all the Protheans hidden within. My guess? Plothole. The explanation given by Vigil holds so long as you don't analyse it too much. Frankly, I find it more probable that the writers couldn't figure out a good explanation rather than it being a Reaper conspiracy.
[/quote]
They could easily have written it all so that the "Conduit Project" occured not in a major nexus of the Prothean empire but on some really desolate planet, like those you fough gangsters and Cerberus cells on. These did look like they at least tried to maintain secrecy. And the Beacons' "message" could have been written to lead to that desolate planet just like it led to Ilos.
[/quote]

Looking at it from a Prothean point of view, they had no idea the Reapers existed. Top secret as it was, the cost of finding a suitable planet, building a base and supplying it whilst keeping its existence hidden would be astronomical. It would take a lot of manpower to construct such a base and keep it supplied; keeping it secret would be extremely difficult. It's usually easier and less costly to hide stuff "in plain sight". At least on Ilos it can blend in. So from a story point of view it makes more sense. Of course it still doesn't explain why the facility itself survived. The experimental relay on Ilos is not inside some hidden structure, it appears to be above ground (but I might be mistaken). But to be honest I think this is a weakness in the plot which we'll have to learn to accept.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]ifander wrote...
Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe it's the husks who are modeled after the Protheans? As someone else stated earlier, it's possible the Protheans were experimenting with bio-synthetic fusion or whatever by the time the Reapers arrived.
[/quote]
Why would the Reapers model Human husks after Protheans? In any case, those tentacles/tubes in the faces of the statues are sort of body horror stuff.
[/quote]

Looking at the statues I can see how they can resemble husks, but to be honest I don't think they look like the human husks. I still think the bio-synth fusion argument holds.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]ifander wrote...
Its batteries ran out? Look at the average cell phone. When the low-battery warning goes off, the phone will still work for a while as long as you don't use it, but try to call someone and it will run out of juice within minutes. Vigil depleted its remaining power reserves speaking to Shepard. Or perhaps the hardware failed; it had been idling for 50000 years after all.
[/quote]
Very convinient, nuff said.
[/quote]

Winning the lottery is convenient as well. Is it an intricate Reaper plan intended to lull us into blissful happyness? Doubtful. The theory that it burned out or that the power ran out makes sense.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]ifander wrote...
As I explained at the beginning of my post, it probably was a secondary option. The discovery of the second beacon forced Saren/Sovereign to take rash action in order to prevent the truth about the Reapers being revealed. With Saren's treason out in the open, the safest way to co-opt the Citadel would be the Conduit.
[/quote]
Saren was a Spectre, one of the best and most trusted by the Council. But instead of going "Palpatine", patiently studying the Keepers, or smuggling Geth and heavy weapons to the Wards, he searched for the Conduit. Even before the Eden Prime Beacon was unearthed. When it was unearthed, Saren took risk to attack Eden Prime, knowing that even if it were a success, the Council might take notice of the Beacon's importance, while if the Beacon was taken by the Council without interference they wouldn't be able to figure out how to use it, or how important it was.
[/quote]

As I said, it would have been in Sovereigns best intrest to investigate exactly what the Protheans were up to and what else they might have screwed with. Had it not been for Shepard, the Eden Prime operation would have been a success and Saren's cover would have been intact. The only reason Shepard could go down to the surface undetected and stop Saren was the Normandy, any other ship would have been destroyed.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote..

[quote]ifander wrote...
Well... there could be "something more" to just about everything in every story written. Doesn't really prove anything.
[/quote]
Well... if you take that Chorban's e-mail, you'll see, that it actually confirms everything Vigil more or less "guessed" about the Keepers, and says nothing about what Vigil sold you for fact, namely, that the "12 scientists" tinkered with the Keepers and managed to switch their "receivers" off.
[/quote]

The modifications could have been made to the Citadel itself, in which case the modification wouldn't have shown in the Keepers.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]ifander wrote...
I might as well state the obvious here though. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
[/quote]
Yes. It favors the simplest working explanation, not the simplest explanation (which is universal and looks like - this). I say, that Vigil's explanation is not working, so you'll have to put the Razor away for a while.
[/quote]

But it does apply to your theory that Vigil is working for the Reapers, or else you just contradicted yourself. Either Vigil was working for the Reapers, and intended for you to go to the Citadel, stop Saren and Sovereign so that it can acheive... whatever it is it wants to acheive. Or it wasn't working for the Reapers, but still intended for you to go after Saren and stop the Reaper invasion. Which makes more sense? If Vigil is a Reaper creation, the most logical course of action would be to stall Shepard on Ilos. If he isn't, then he did what can be expected.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]ifander wrote...
If Vigil is indeed a Reaper creation it would make far more sense for it to simply trap Shepard on Ilos. All it would take is for it to stall Shepard for a few hours. Saren would have all the time he needs to activate the relay.[/quote]
Instead, it manipulated Shepard into uploading some unknown "datafile" to the Citadel's mainframe, which helped to take control away from a Reaper - something that can not be possible, if you go by Vigil's own tale.
[/quote]

In that case Vigil could just as well have made Saren upload such a file and still trapped Shepard on Ilos. It would make far more sense since Saren already is an agent for the Reapers.

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
And a bit of a bonus here:





Take a good long look at these two pics. Imagine the motion of the moving parts. Ponder.[/quote]

It's a similar color, with broken circular arms moving around. Doesn't really prove anything.

Modifié par ifander, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Midnight_Thirty]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

All of this is exactly what I have been explaining the entire time. Protheans foil Sovereign's initial plans, Saren's plans are continuously foiled by Shepard. Cause and effect.

Only Saren's plans made no sense.

OK, just say it "I believe Vigil to the word". Although only its some of its "guesses" are confirmed, while the "factual part" is not supported by anything.

But don't be astonished when in ME3 the Keepers come firing at you!

I wouldn't mind destroying some keepers

[Midnight_Thirty]

ifander wrote...

As to the primary purpose of the Collectors, it could be any number of
things. Having a capable, controllable force handy in case something
goes FUBAR makes sense. Perhaps their primary purpose is to sample the
existing races prior to the invasion, finding those "worthy of
ascension". One could say the Collectors are the Reapers handymen. It
is stated however that the Collectors (and in extension, Reapers) don't
shift their focus to humanity until after the destruction of Sovereign.
If Humanity had the attention of those infinately greater ever since
the Protheans were studying us from Mars, wouldn't the focus had been
on Humanity from day one?

I think this is a very logical assumption. Based upon what is known about the Collectors up at to this point. They have been "collecting" genetic samples from species around the galaxy, most likely testing genetic material to to find the one's (or one) "worthy of ascension" like you said above.

I think it's no small coincidence that there is a lot of talk about human's "genetic diversity" throughout Mass Effect 2. It's fairly intuitive to assume that the Reaper's have found humans to be "worthy of ascension" because of their genetic diversity, and more likely to be the best candidate for another Reaper. It's also safe to assume that the need for another Reaper within the galaxy is necessary because the only known reaper has been eradicated. The Reapers are still stuck in dark space unable to reach the milky way without using all available energy resourses and "dying". They needed another Reaper to activate the citadel relay. I'm not saying this is true, but it's certainly a possibility.

I would like to think that in Mass Effect 3 the conflict will end up spanning the entire galaxy. Galaxy War I. Every species involved. I think this has a possible "religious" backdrop. I'll reference the christian bible for this (not trying to offend anyone, but it's an example) Think about the rapture in revelations and how the world will end in destruction, but only the ones "saved" will be welcomed into heaven. Now imagine if species get the idea that the Reapers are the "gods" and will give them a higher existence in the "afterlife". The "ascension" that the Reapers are talking about will be like a "heaven" for anyone willing to become indoctrinated. This could cause a galactic civil war between the ones that refuse indoctrination and the ones that are willing to be indoctrinated for their own "salvation". I think it would make for an entirely epic conclusion to the trilogy.

[Zan51]

Or, if the Reapers really are stuck in Dark Space, and would die trying to reach us, then all we have to do is to change each Mass Relay and the Citadel so they can never again access them.
Maybe ME3 is heading around the Galaxy just doing that, and fighting off any agents of the Reapers left here as well as civilizations near said Mass Relays that don't want us to change them. I hope not...

Modifié par Zan51, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:24 .

[Mallissin]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


Take a good long look at these two pics. Imagine the motion of the moving parts. Ponder.

vigil is a reaper., that's why he stop functioning when the council looked into him... 

I submit that any character that has a voice actor trying to sound like Kiefer Sutherland during Dark City.....

CANNOT BE TRUSTED!

[chaos-zhan]

why didn't the 12 scientists just carve the message of reapers return on the wall somewhere on the citadel?.....

Modifié par chaos-zhan, 16 septembre 2010 - 01:27 .

[Zulu_DFA]

ifander wrote...

As to the primary purpose of the Collectors, it could be any number of
things. Having a capable, controllable force handy in case something
goes FUBAR makes sense. Perhaps their primary purpose is to sample the
existing races prior to the invasion, finding those "worthy of
ascension". One could say the Collectors are the Reapers handymen. It
is stated however that the Collectors (and in extension, Reapers) don't
shift their focus to humanity until after the destruction of Sovereign.
If Humanity had the attention of those infinately greater ever since
the Protheans were studying us from Mars, wouldn't the focus had been
on Humanity from day one?

It is "stated" only in the form of TIM's guess. And it doesn't even look like it's a good guess. The Reapers took notice of the Humans, then immediately went harvesting them... Do they seem to be fans of jumping to conclusions?

More likely, Harbinger was forced to get on with the Plan too early, as a result of Sovereign's actions, that alerted the organics to the Reapers' reality. First step - try to eliminate Shepard. But when the awareness of the Reapers took hold with Cerberus, Harbinger had little choice but to start harvesting Humans. Mark it, it was "The Plan". Not even Plan A, because a contingency plan seemed not to exist. Harbinger tells the Collector General: "You have failed. We shall find another way." It's also interesting that Harbinger never mentions Sovereign.

Now consider: The Shadow Broker worked with the Collectors, knowing what they were. He even was intending to retake the Collector Base (if you spared it). But during ME1 he helped against Sovereign. He also wanted to assassinate TIM (a bad move, if he wanted to survive against the Reapers). Of course, it looks like it's "just business" for him, but hell, the coincidences keep piling up!

- Vigil helped Shepard against Saren/Sovereign. Vigil was in a Prothean facility, and we know for fact what Protheans had been turned into by the Reapers.

- Shadow Broker helped Shepard against Saren/Sovereign. Shadow Broker was helping Collectors.

- Saren hated Humans. Harbinger is fond of Humans. Saren wanted all organic races to submit to Sovereign's will, and find a place in the new order. Harbinger seems to be interested exclusively in the Humans, and it was probably per its instructions that the Collectors field tested a plague, that should quickly dispose of all other races but the Humans and the Vorcha.

So, was Sovereign really a team player, or was it rogue?

chaos-zhan wrote...

why didn't the 12 scientists just carve the message of reapers return on the wall somewhere on the citadel?.....

Because they never existed.

Midnight_Thirty wrote...

I think this is a very logical assumption. Based upon what is known about the Collectors up at to this point. They have been "collecting" genetic samples from species around the galaxy, most likely testing genetic material to to find the one's (or one) "worthy of ascension" like you said above.

I think it's no small coincidence that there is a lot of talk about human's "genetic diversity" throughout Mass Effect 2. It's fairly intuitive to assume that the Reaper's have found humans to be "worthy of ascension" because of their genetic diversity, and more likely to be the best candidate for another Reaper. It's also safe to assume that the need for another Reaper within the galaxy is necessary because the only known reaper has been eradicated. The Reapers are still stuck in dark space unable to reach the milky way without using all available energy resourses and "dying". They needed another Reaper to activate the citadel relay. I'm not saying this is true, but it's certainly a possibility.

I would like to think that in Mass Effect 3 the conflict will end up spanning the entire galaxy. Galaxy War I. Every species involved. I think this has a possible "religious" backdrop. I'll reference the christian bible for this (not trying to offend anyone, but it's an example) Think about the rapture in revelations and how the world will end in destruction, but only the ones "saved" will be welcomed into heaven. Now imagine if species get the idea that the Reapers are the "gods" and will give them a higher existence in the "afterlife". The "ascension" that the Reapers are talking about will be like a "heaven" for anyone willing to become indoctrinated. This could cause a galactic civil war between the ones that refuse indoctrination and the ones that are willing to be indoctrinated for their own "salvation". I think it would make for an entirely epic conclusion to the trilogy.

If you want religious stuff, you should listen to the Mad Prophet on Omega.

BTW, among other things, he says that it's the Omega station, that will be "the beginning of the end". Makes sense, as it's in the same star system as the Omega-4 Relay - the shortcut to the Collectors' hideout. And, it is the "dark counterpart" of the Citadel station, their sizes and shapes making them an ideal match... And it just looks like a huge antenna. And Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet (geeky BioWare!). So, if I were Aria T'Loak, I'd hurry my blue ass out of there ASAP!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 septembre 2010 - 04:03 .

[Mallissin]

chaos-zhan wrote...

why didn't the 12 scientists just carve the message of reapers return on the wall somewhere on the citadel?.....

The keepers would have polished it away. They're constantly repairing the citadel, remember?

But yes, why didn't they leave SOMETHING to explain what had happened?

[Midnight_Thirty]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If you want religious stuff, you should listen to the Mad Prophet on Omega.

BTW, among other things, he says that it's the Omega station, that will be "the beginning of the end". Makes sense, as it's in the same star system as the Omega-4 Relay - the shortcut to the Collectors' hideout. And, it is the "dark counterpart" of the Citadel station, their sizes and shapes making them an ideal match... And it just looks like a huge antenna. And Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet (geeky BioWare!). So, if I were Aria T'Loak, I'd hurry my blue ass out of there ASAP!

Considering that the Omega station has at least been around since the time of the Protheans, maybe even longer, I think you are definitely on to something. It, as well as Aria T'Loak will definitely have a large role in ME3.

Also, the Batarians involvement with the "Leviathan of Dis". Maybe there is a relationship between the "disappearance" and how they have shut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy.

[cipher13]

They had to try the "Palpatine" before anything else. So that Saren would not lose his Spectre status over some ghostly artefact... And how did thay know about the Conduit in the first place?[/quote]


They did not have to try the palpatine. as far as we know everyone who was indoctrinated was done so by a reaper, or by being implanted with reaper tech, so either sovereign would have had to fly into the council chambers and hope no one noticed, or get saren to perform surgery on the council without no one noticing and pt reaper tech in their heads.

they made the desperate obvious move, and the one that makes the most sense