363 réponses à ce sujet

[AresXX7]

After doing a little brainstorming on this (and a little web-surfing).

I have a few more ideas to throw out.
Sorry if I repeat anything already said, there's a lot of reading to do to catch up.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council". And even then, infiltrating the Citadel in a more customary fashion would be a more reliable and subtle plan.

I don't think the initial reason for finding the conduit was for a 'back-door approach', since it has been shown that Saren was looking for it prior to being exposed for his role in Eden Prime's attack. I'm thinking it was for Sovereign to learn if more than the Keepers were affected by the Protheans' findings in regards to the Citadel itself, such as the hidden function of being a mass relay. Therefore the need to find the conduit, as well as any other vital information relating to it, was to assess just how much the Protheans had learned about mass relays, along with how the Keepers were altered to begin with. (best place to start is at the source - Ilos)

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Prothans being extinct.

I agree with what has been said that they did find it at least 50K years ago, otherwise why would a relay (a device they created) link to it's location?
As for the small mass relay on the Citadel, I think it has been adequately answered by others, including myself, to why it was overlooked.
I think the best answer to it's secret(s) was not the planet itself, but what was hidden on/in it. (the secret research facility)

[Zulu_DFA]

By "going Palpatine" I don't mean exposing the Council to Sovereign's indoctrination directly. I mean going Palpatine. Use the Geth Heretics to build up instability all over the Galaxy (Not just in Human space), promote distrust between the Council and the associate member races, even between the Council races themselves, get Saren sent to "investigate" the most serious incidents as Spectre, use Benezia's political influence, assassinate Councillors or the whole of the Council and ideally get Saren and Benezia in the office. Councillor Saren + Councillor Benezia = Sovereign wins. I'm not saying it would definitely work, but Sovereign had to try it first.

To counter (and clarify) my own previous statement that Sovereign might have been "rogue" - playing its own game, not Harby's, for whatever reason - I am not decided about it. It's like 50/50 or even 30/70 (now), as opposed to my 90% certainty that Vigil was lying. First, it would be indeed too complicated. Then, there is that Legion's "slip" of attributing Shepard's Virmire interaction with Sovereign to Ilos.

But most importantly, if you carefully read Tali's dossier in the Shadow Broker's intel center, that has an archival copy of TSB's correspondence with Tali & Fist, you'll understand that TSB, in fact, wasn't helping against Saren/Sovereign. TSB wanted to get Tali's intel on Saren, then kill anyone whoever had access to it, including Fist himself (as you've known from ME1). That looks like TSB was trying to prevent Saren's exposure.

But that changes nothing. Even with Saren, Sovereign, the Shadow Broker and Harbinger all being on the same side, Vigil still was lying. If anything, it did stall Shepard listening to its BS for a while. If it hadn't, Shepard could have caught up with Saren earlier. Then Vigil gave Shepard the "datafile", to insure that even if he succeeded in stopping Saren, he would still upload it to the Citadel, so the Reapers would win either way. Hell, for all we know, the "datafile" could be Sovereign's own back-up copy! (Legion's "mistake" - and that's airquotes here!). Wouldn't it be awesome, to have Sovereign back in ME3? A part of Vigil's lie could have been that conrolling the Citadel's "hidden" functions from the Council Chamber console needs any hacking at all after its being activated.

Another consideration. I don't know what other squadmates say on Ilos, because for all of my playthroughs (that I can remember of) I was bringing Liara & Garrus there. But Liara was all the way: "O, Protheans so!" and "O, Protheans such! I wish to return here in the future and learn more...", while Garrus was all the way: "It's a trap!". Yet the trap never actually happened, not even in the form of Geth troopers coming from behind. So, I think that Garrus' trap-sensing capabilities weren't failing him that day, but he couldn't figure out the readings. The whole planet Ilos is a trap! And not just for the current generation of sapient life, but for many that came before, including the Proteans. And we'll be learing as much when we return to Ilos with Shepard and Liara in ME3.


And, one last time, you can't hide a facility such as the Conduit Base on a planet. Much smaller and more underground compounds get detected by the Normandy from orbit. Once Ilos was all dead but the Conduit Base, the Reapers would detect the anomaly: a high energy signature against the inert surroundings.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 octobre 2010 - 03:19 .

[cipher13]

But most importantly, if you carefully read Tali's dossier in the Shadow Broker's intel center, that has an archival copy of TSB's correspondence with Tali & Fist, you'll understand that TSB, in fact, wasn't helping against Saren/Sovereign. TSB wanted to get Tali's intel on Saren, then kill anyone whoever had access to it, including Fist himself (as you've known from ME1). That looks like TSB was trying to prevent Saren's exposure.

But that changes nothing. Even with Saren, Sovereign, the Shadow Broker and Harbinger all being on the same side, Vigil still was lying. If anything, it did stall Shepard listening to its BS for a while. If it hadn't, Shepard could have caught up with Saren earlier. Then Vigil gave Shepard the "datafile", to insure that even if he succeeded in stopping Saren, he would still upload it to the Citadel, so the Reapers would win either way. Hell, for all we know, the "datafile" could be Sovereign's own back-up copy! (Legion's "mistake" - and that's airquotes here!). Wouldn't it be awesome, to have Sovereign back in ME3? A part of Vigil's lie could have been that conrolling the Citadel's "hidden" functions from the Council Chamber console needs any hacking at all after its being activated.

Another consideration. I don't know what other squadmates say on Ilos, because for all of my playthroughs (that I can remember of) I was bringing Liara & Garrus there. But Liara was all the way: "O, Protheans so!" and "O, Protheans such! I wish to return here in the future and learn more...", while Garrus was all the way: "It's a trap!". Yet the trap never actually happened, not even in the form of Geth troopers coming from behind. So, I think that Garrus' trap-sensing capabilities weren't failing him that day, but he couldn't figure out the readings. The whole planet Ilos is a trap! And not just for the current generation of sapient life, but for many that came before, including the Proteans. And we'll be learing as much when we return to Ilos with Shepard and Liara in ME3.


And, one last time, you can't hide a facility such as the Couduit Base on a planet. Much smaller and more underground compounds get detected by the Normandy from orbit. Once Ilos was all dead but the Counduit Base, the Reapers would detect the anomaly: a high energy signature against the inert surroundings.[/quote]

TSB was most definately not working with saren, the reason he wanted to kill everyone was because he did not anyone to know the information, because he is an information broker, it is only valuable to sell it to people if it is not common knowledge.  also am pretty sure legions mention of ilos was a writing error, otherwise shepard would have picked up on it.  Mass effect has never been subtle in their so called mysteries.  They never give clues through mispoken words, usually it is a data cache you decrypt or some other technical jargon, or a prothean artifact.  I seriously recommend that you carefully replay both games, and especially reread the SB's dossiers because you have spread a great deal of information in this forum to the point of confusing people, myself included.  You almost scared me into thinking i missed some clues.  Plus vigil is most definately not  a reaper tool. if it was not for vigil shepard would not have been able to save the galaxy because the reapers would have already destroyed it when they came through the citadel relay.  and no, for reasons i have previously stated, the council could not have been infiltrated.

 
 

[Dragonikus]

And I have a quick question/suggestion.

I was trying to understand how Mass Effect works exactly, but I cant check this out right now and I am very curious.

What if one of the paths between two Mass Relays was going right through the Haestrom star?



Or even more - what if every mass Relay's path had to go through a star to... power it up for example. Its 6 am though, so I am probably talking nonsense.

[Zan51]

Found this definition of how Mass Effect works.



"Project Director Casey Hudson explained the term "Mass Effect" as follows:



Inside the game universe, mass effect is a newly discovered (for humans anyway) physics phenomenon that has properties along the lines of other physics forces such as gravity and electromagnetism. It’s what physicists in real life are currently calling "dark energy", as an explanation for the accelerating expansion of the universe — which has only recently been discovered and flies in the face of the previous notion that the universe’s expansion should be slowing down because of gravity.



Hudson explains that certain creatures are evolved to sense and manipulate mass effect much like some real-life creatures such as sharks and electric eels can sense and manipulate electromagnetism in peculiar ways. Some humans are preternaturally capable of these abilities, which can be enhanced via implants, and the trained manipulation of Mass Effect is referred to as biotics."



http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mass_Effect

[Whereto]

to address the issue of why they just didnt indoctrinate the council. Have you ever noticed that when ever there is dragon teeth around, there are more of them than the husks or the people that were tuned into them. In mass effect 2 the indoctrination device in the n7 mission is huge and turned alot of people into husks. My theory is that these devices can only turn a certain amount of people into husks at one time and considering 100's of people could be visiting each council member a day. These devices may not of had effect, also why would you indoctrinate them because people would just figure out they are sick and cant do there job

[Sith_exar_kun]

Example: that man hidden in the bunker in horizon, the swarm can't paralyze him because he's sealed in there (I know the collectors are out of the door) maybe the protheans studied a way to be undetectable!

[FuturePasTimeCE]

the turian councilor or the council deactivated him.

[Midnight_Thirty]

Zan51 wrote...

Found this definition of how Mass Effect works.

"Project Director Casey Hudson explained the term "Mass Effect" as follows:

Inside the game universe, mass effect is a newly discovered (for humans anyway) physics phenomenon that has properties along the lines of other physics forces such as gravity and electromagnetism. It’s what physicists in real life are currently calling "dark energy", as an explanation for the accelerating expansion of the universe — which has only recently been discovered and flies in the face of the previous notion that the universe’s expansion should be slowing down because of gravity.

Hudson explains that certain creatures are evolved to sense and manipulate mass effect much like some real-life creatures such as sharks and electric eels can sense and manipulate electromagnetism in peculiar ways. Some humans are preternaturally capable of these abilities, which can be enhanced via implants, and the trained manipulation of Mass Effect is referred to as biotics."

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mass_Effect

Thanks Zan51......great info

[Zan51]

My pleasure.

[Valikdu]

I agree that there must be more to Ilos than the Conduit.

If it was as simple as just holding the Citadel open for Sovereign to fly in and sealing it behind him, there were much easier option than searching for lost Prothean devices (like just stuffing a cargo ship full of geth).

[SimonTheFrog]

I agree with the doubts that Vigil wanted to stall Shepard. Vigil was able to have the mako being trapped in the energy field. He removes the energy field so that Shepard can go after Saren. If Vigil wanted Saren to succeed all he had to do was keep the energy field up.



I keep thinking about such things more from a gamedesigners point of view (at least what i think that would be) and not taking every info we get in the game as put in stone.



So, Ilos is a plot device: it creates depth to the threat in showing that the reapers are indeed coming back once in a while and that they are using the citadel as backdoor. But it also gives the player the key to close that backdoor. And the prothean scientists are plotdevices that make it possible for vigil to hand over such a key to Shepard.



Btw: if i remember correctly, than the replica relay on the citadel is that backdoor created by the reapers themselves. Not by the protheans. the protheans build their own relay on ilos in order to be able to jump onto the citadel after the other relays were shut down (during the last Reaper attack).

[Geowil]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to the Citadel mainframe come from?

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Protheans being extinct.

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and indoctrinate the Council". And even then, infiltrating the Citadel in a more customary fashion would be a more reliable and subtle plan.

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

My answers are these:

1. The "datafile" predates the last Reaper invasion.

2. The Reapers weren't surprised about the Conduit. Because the Protheans did not built it. It was there always, and Ilos was always part of the Reaper plan.

3. The Protheans on Ilos were indoctrinated and worshipped the Reapers.

4. Because after Shepard's brief visit it was not only pointless but also dangerous to continue functioning, and Vigil self-terminated.

5. Something they needed. A key. A "datafile".

6. I think there's a lot more to it. Like, why Chorban didn't take notice that for the last cycle the Keepers were dancing to another tune? - Because they were not, as they had not been tinkered with, and the "12 scientists" never existed.

So technically it was the supernova, that "blew away" the Mu Relay, that gave the current generation of life a chance against the Reapers. Why didn't the Reapers predict it? Because the stars have a few surprizes, even for them, like that of Haestrom's star, that is aging "all of a sudden".

Gianna Parasini says something about "everyone" (read: "nobody in particular") suddenly interested in the dark energy, which, according to Tali seems to be behind the Haestrom's star aging. Maybe the Reapers want to learn about their mistake?

It would make perfect sense, if the Reapers had a more profound plan, than just "Come, Reap, Return to Base". I mean, if the Protheans were indoctrinated for several generations, as Mordin infers, they could be used for some purposes such as preparing the next cycle, before being exterminated, except for the C-Base crew. I mean, when Harbinger says "your species has the attention of those infinitely greater", it may be a reference to the times immemorial (for us). Like the Protheans studied the early humans 50K years ago and put that cache of cool stuff on Mars per the Reapers' instructions! Falls well with Sovereign's claim that the Reapers impose order over chaos. To reap a more ample harvest, it's essential to cultivate the crop at all times.


Also, this is a most irrational argument in support of this theory, but still. BioWare is known to be geeky about the Greek mythology. The Codex entry draws an analogy between Ilos and Troy. Moreover, the dude by the name Ilos was the founder of ancient Troy. What do we have associated with Troy, except for the awful movie with Bred Pitt? The Troyan Horse. Which gave name to a class of malicious software. So, Shepard was given some unknown "datafile" on a "Troy" planet and put it into the Galaxy's most important computer. RRRRRight.




On a side note: By now, I think, the Leviathan of Dis was Sovereign itself. Check the dating: Dr. Shu Qian's co-research with a Batarian scientist started a couple of years after the Batarians allegedly extracted the Leviathan.

1.  I always thought that Vigil implied that they made the control lockout program on Ilos but then had to go to the Citadel to alter the Keepers so that they could not respond to a Reaper signal directly.

2.  This one is so easy to shoot down.  Vigil says why during the conversation.  The protheans there shut down all means of communication and at some point also shut down power to much of the systems.

3. Because they don't?  The form is similar but they are not anything alike.  The Protheans, if the statues are correct are more spindley while husts are more huminoid.

4. Vigil is tied into the main power grid on Ilos.  It kept some power by starting to turn off the statis pods, again already covered in the conversation.  By now I think that all of the pods have been deactivated and Vigil used up most of it conversing with Shepard.  Before he likely only activated to check on the situation and deactivate any pods if needed.


5. Corrupting the Council would have been foolish.  The Council does not control the galaxy.  If the other races thought that they were being controled by something and working against everyones intrests they would have been removed from office.

Likewise Sovereign has to be at least somewhere in the vacinity for his signal to have any effect.  A ship like that sitting somewhere where anyone could accidentaly stumble upon it would have been viewed as intollerable to Sovereign.


Everything else from there on is pure speculation and I don't think you have anny facts to back it up.  In fact much of that goes directly against what is told within the game.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]SimonTheFrog wrote...

I agree with the doubts that Vigil wanted to stall Shepard. Vigil was able to have the mako being trapped in the energy field. He removes the energy field so that Shepard can go after Saren. If Vigil wanted Saren to succeed all he had to do was keep the energy field up.

I keep thinking about such things more from a gamedesigners point of view (at least what i think that would be) and not taking every info we get in the game as put in stone.
[/quote]
If anything, Vigil's power field was a game design thingy with no story bearing... or it was a Reaper-grade barrier (which kinda plays my way).

Either way, you can't say if it sustains or not while Shepard is talking to Vigil, or that Shepard can't find an alternate route or something.

Also, as I've mentioned, there is always a chance that Sovereign was a "rogue" Reaper, so Vigil wanted at the same time defeat saren, and deceive Shepard. But I wouldn't hold onto this. So I stick with the "Vigil tried to buy Saren some time, while providing Shepard with the datafile in case Saren failed".

In any case, the "datafile" may turn out to be just like the Reaper IFF - a goody with a nasty surprize.



[quote]SimonTheFrog wrote...
So, Ilos is a plot device: it creates depth to the threat in showing that the reapers are indeed coming back once in a while and that they are using the citadel as backdoor. But it also gives the player the key to close that backdoor. And the prothean scientists are plotdevices that make it possible for vigil to hand over such a key to Shepard.
[/quote]
If so, it will turn out to be the hugest plot hole in the whole series. Namely, why Saren (Sovereign) didn't try the "Palpatine" first?



[quote]SimonTheFrog wrote...
Btw: if i remember correctly, than the replica relay on the citadel is that backdoor created by the reapers themselves. Not by the protheans. the protheans build their own relay on ilos in order to be able to jump onto the citadel after the other relays were shut down (during the last Reaper attack).[/quote]
No, Vigil says both mini-relays were built by the Protheans, and that the Protheans had not anticipated the Reaper invasion.


[quote]Geowil wrote...

1.  I always thought that Vigil implied that they made the control lockout program on Ilos but then had to go to the Citadel to alter the Keepers so that they could not respond to a Reaper signal directly.
[/quote]
How could they make a program that would 50K years later cyber-defeat Sovereign if they (the Ilos Protheans) never entered into any contact with the Reapers?



[quote]Geowil wrote...
2.  This one is so easy to shoot down.  Vigil says why during the conversation.  The protheans there shut down all means of communication and at some point also shut down power to much of the systems.
[/quote]
The Ilos Protheans learnt about the Reapers, but the Reapers did not learn about the Ilos Protheans. And the Ilos Protheans thought the Reapers were "thorough". Where's logic?

Little hint. The Normandy-1's sensors can detect an "anomaly" of Prothean origin, that has been unpowered for the last 50K years, as opposed to the huge not so comletely unpowered Ilos site with tons of Element Zero there. How could the Reapers miss it, seeing how Ilos was known all over the Prothean empire?


[quote]Geowil wrote...
3. Because they don't?  The form is similar but they are not anything alike.  The Protheans, if the statues are correct are more spindley while husts are more huminoid.
[/quote]
Human husks = humanoid. Prothean husks = protheanoid.


[quote]Geowil wrote...
5. Corrupting the Council would have been foolish.  The Council does not control the galaxy.  If the other races thought that they were being controled by something and working against everyones intrests they would have been removed from office.
[/quote]
Not before the Citadel Control could be accessed, and the Reapers recalled. They needed only the Citadel, remember?

And, with the easyness the special ops in the ME universe are conducted, Saren could just hire a few rascals, call in Fist's gang, while he was still a highly esteemed spectre and BAM, here's your diversion.

What was the point of searching for the "back door" and creating more fuss in the process, if in the end it still had to be a "front door" assault, as Sovereign was to fat to fit in the "back door"?
[/quote]

I'm not saying an "old fashioned" coup would definitely work, but Saren/Sovereign had to try it first.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 octobre 2010 - 10:37 .

[Faolin]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
If so, it will turn out to be the hugest plot hole in the whole series. Namely, why Saren (Sovereign) didn't try the "Palpatine" first?

Pulling a Palpatine requires crazy amounts of political manipulation. Saren would have to:
A.) Discredit the current Council (all of whom are master politicians backed up by their respective governments)
B.) Ensure that both Saren (a soldier) and Benezia (one of many politicians) were picked as the replacement candidates.
C.) Gloss over the fact that both he and Benezia were acting drastically out of character, whilst putting them in a position where the entire galactic media would be watching their every move (politics).
D.) Place Reaper tech (possibly Sovereign itself) in the public eye without anyone noticing anything suspect.

The plan Saren actually went with involved breaking into an abandoned base, shooting some C-Sec Officers (who were both outgunned and outnumbered), and fighting part of the Citadel Fleet (who are unable to call for any sort of reinforcements beause the Relays had all been shut down from Citadel Control).

Saren didn't try a Palpatine first because it had abysmally low chances of working, and a much better plan was easily available.

[Zulu_DFA]

Faolin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
If so, it will turn out to be the hugest plot hole in the whole series. Namely, why Saren (Sovereign) didn't try the "Palpatine" first?

Pulling a Palpatine requires crazy amounts of political manipulation. Saren would have to:
A.) Discredit the current Council (all of whom are master politicians backed up by their respective governments)
B.) Ensure that both Saren (a soldier) and Benezia (one of many politicians) were picked as the replacement candidates.
C.) Gloss over the fact that both he and Benezia were acting drastically out of character, whilst putting them in a position where the entire galactic media would be watching their every move (politics).
D.) Place Reaper tech (possibly Sovereign itself) in the public eye without anyone noticing anything suspect.

The plan Saren actually went with involved breaking into an abandoned base, shooting some C-Sec Officers (who were both outgunned and outnumbered), and fighting part of the Citadel Fleet (who are unable to call for any sort of reinforcements beause the Relays had all been shut down from Citadel Control).

Saren didn't try a Palpatine first because it had abysmally low chances of working, and a much better plan was easily available.

Saren had many options:

- "recruit" more spectres
- train more krogans, send them to the Citadel Wards
- smuggle & stockpile weapons in the Wards
- wait till the Heretics' virus is complete and "recruit" more geth
- try out the "Palpatine" (just try it out, with an option to back down if it wouldn't work)
- during all this and anything else avoid any open action against the Council or associate races.

Instead he goes straight for the option with the least probability of success: search for a lost planet, connected to the rest of the Galaxy by a lost relay, and may have a "back door" to sqeeze a few ground troops on the Presidium. In the process he alerts the Citadel that something is happening.

This characterizes Saren and Sovereign as idiots. Unless Ilos was not a simple "back door" to the Citadel, but the only way to activate the Citadel. How was it the only way, if it was a simple "back door"? Going to Ilos had to be critical to be worth the trouble. So that not going to Ilos would invalidate all the other options, make them pointless, not working even if 100% successful.

Without going to Ilos, Shepard wouldn't have the "datafile" to (apparently) wrestle the control of the Citadel from Sovereign.

What was it Saren wouldn't have without going to Ilos? What was that Vigil forgot to mention?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:30 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is a theory (not mine), that the Citadel has a subtle indoctrination effect. It's Reaper-built, after all. Funny how many people here freak out about saving the C-Base: "It's Reaper-built, it's gonna indoctrinate everyone!" and have no misgivings about the Citadel itself, which is the same - Reaper-built. Only the C-Base seems not to have been inteded to be accessed by anyone but Collectors, while the Citadel is there on purpose to become the hub of the organic civilizations, and make them "develop along the path Reapers desire"!

So if we accept this possibility for a moment, that would provide a perfect explanation for the Council (and certain Admirals) acting weird... But it's got a lot worse over the two years Shepard was off the loop, so maybe the indoctrination effect got some boost?

Okay, so I was only halfway through the thread, reading arguments back and forth, and suddenly this gem pops out at me.  THIS would explain why everyone is so reluctant to study the Keepers.  THIS would explain why the Reaper threat is so adamantly ignored (to the point where it's absurd).  But I doubt it does more than make people on the Presidium feel tranquil and safe, since if the Citadel really was indoctrinating the Council, THEY could have just opened the relays...

Well hey now, the Reapers could have done a lot of things differently, couldn't they?

I honestly think that a certain amount of stupidity on the villain's part is necessary for the good guys to win.  If the Reapers really were as smart, patient, and powerful as the game works you up to believe, then ME1 would have been an incredibly short and grim game.  Also, as video games as a storytelling mechanism are still fairly new, they tend to suffer from inconsistencies and plot holes more than other media.  Unfortunate, but I've learned to live with it for the time being.  Doesn't mean I don't demand improvement.

Relating back to the original topic, I honestly think it's an interesting theory, but those "it was so-and-so all along" plot twists are rather tiresome and tend to bog down rather than clarify other parts of the story.  I'm not saying your thoughts are invalid, but I disagree with them

[Homebound]

SPOILERS:



The reason the Reapers are harvesting races is because of that Dark Energy stuff Tali found on that star. It turns out the Universe will become inhospitable due to this energy, and the only living thing that can survive in that condition is a Reaper.

[AdmiralCheez]

Just_mike wrote...

SPOILERS:

The reason the Reapers are harvesting races is because of that Dark Energy stuff Tali found on that star. It turns out the Universe will become inhospitable due to this energy, and the only living thing that can survive in that condition is a Reaper.

We will dismiss your claim unless you provide proper evidence.

[Homebound]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Just_mike wrote...

SPOILERS:

The reason the Reapers are harvesting races is because of that Dark Energy stuff Tali found on that star. It turns out the Universe will become inhospitable due to this energy, and the only living thing that can survive in that condition is a Reaper.

We will dismiss your claim unless you provide proper evidence.

Its the most logical conclusion. Show me a theory more plausible.

[Zulu_DFA]

Just_mike wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Just_mike wrote...

SPOILERS:

The reason the Reapers are harvesting races is because of that Dark Energy stuff Tali found on that star. It turns out the Universe will become inhospitable due to this energy, and the only living thing that can survive in that condition is a Reaper.

We will dismiss your claim unless you provide proper evidence.

Its the most logical conclusion. Show me a theory more plausible.

Your "theory" is actually just several assumptions put together:

1.  The Universe will become inhospitable due to Dark Energy. No proof.

2.  The only living thing that can survive in that condition is a Reaper. No proof.

3.  The Reapers are harvesting races is because of that Dark Energy stuff. Proof of the opposite: Harbinger makes it clear that most races don't deserve to be ascended, and the Mad Prophet, who seems to know something, concurs.

Moreover, this "Dark Energy stuff" can't happen every 50K years.

My theory is more plausible.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
If the Reapers really were as smart, patient, and powerful as the game works you up to believe, then ME1 would have been an incredibly short and grim game.

It would, just like it had always been in the past. But something went horribly wrong for the Reapers. Something, that's not "their fault". What? Mu Relay "accident".

Also, edited the OP. Hope it makes more sense now.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 novembre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Isn't the "monument" in the Citadel supposed to be the actual relay the Reapers come out of? It was just miniaturized for looks; there's no possible way it could have been built by the scientists after arriving on the Citadel, as the Conduit had already hacked into an existing relay for them to arrive in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

The monument is the Conduit. The entire Citadel is the Reaper Mass Relay.

[Xilizhra]

But... why? Since the Conduit had to tap into the Reaper Mass Relay for the scientists to make it to the Citadel anyway, why would they build a completely different relay? Moreover, how could they find the materials? Is it even possible to build a relay by hand?

[Dean_the_Young]

The Conduit didn't tap into the Reaper Mass Relay network. The Conduit was the Prothean attempt to make their own relays, and they had put one end on the Citadel.



That was how they got back onto the Citadel in the first place. Was kind of a big plot point.



Since the Protheans built a (primitive, one-way) mass relay... yes. They were able to produce materials. It is possible to build a mass relay.