We need that research data, and I bet it is somewhere on the Citadel for us to find. Then we can build our own relays. Or maybe that research will show us a way to stop Reapers using the existing ones. Who knows, but we need that data now.
ME3 Theory Time: The Mystery of Vigil & The Reapers' Grand Design speculation. ["Beings of light" included!]
Débuté par
Zulu_DFA
, sept. 12 2010 12:01
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#127
Posté 15 novembre 2010 - 04:28
Theoristitis
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OP:
I very much like your "Main Point" and the supernova mention (Part of me whimsically thinks that the "beings of light" could, in fact, BE stars). However, I don't think Vigil is lying. If he was part of the Reapers' plan, he had no reason to aid Shepard in ultimately defeating Sovereign.
There are a couple things that stand out ("the Prothean statues", the fact that Vigil hibernated for 50k years and then died, incidentally like the Reapers themselves), the Reapers could indeed have a greater and more complex plan, and it's an intriguing theory, but in this instance I'm inclined to believe that a suitcase is a suitcase and Vigil is Vigil.
But I'm biased because Vigil is one of my favorite minor characters in any video game ever
I very much like your "Main Point" and the supernova mention (Part of me whimsically thinks that the "beings of light" could, in fact, BE stars). However, I don't think Vigil is lying. If he was part of the Reapers' plan, he had no reason to aid Shepard in ultimately defeating Sovereign.
There are a couple things that stand out ("the Prothean statues", the fact that Vigil hibernated for 50k years and then died, incidentally like the Reapers themselves), the Reapers could indeed have a greater and more complex plan, and it's an intriguing theory, but in this instance I'm inclined to believe that a suitcase is a suitcase and Vigil is Vigil.
But I'm biased because Vigil is one of my favorite minor characters in any video game ever
#128
Posté 15 novembre 2010 - 05:00
TuringPoint
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Vigil is a "being of light," as legacy of the Prothean empire and a VI, a last hope for future races. That's been my theory for a while. It's not terribly strong, but I think the "Beings of light" thing may just be an easter egg.
It would be interesting if it weren't an easter egg.
It would be interesting if it weren't an easter egg.
Modifié par Alocormin, 15 novembre 2010 - 05:02 .
#129
Posté 15 novembre 2010 - 06:44
SandTrout
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1. The file was not a 'Reaper' Data file, it was related to the Citadel and its functions, rather than the Reapers themselves. Protheans obviously were more aggressive in their research of the Citadel artifacts than the current council.
2. Probably due to the nature of their research, the Ilos station was essentially a 'black' operation, and not on the records kept in the Citadel, which the reapers use to ensure a thorough sweep. Remember that just because the Mu relay was the only way to get to Ilos doesn't mean that Ilos was the only place to go from the Mu relay. There hundreds of systems in any cluster, and once they realized what was happening, the Ilos researchers cut their emissions to prevent detection by the Reapers, similar to a submarine going silent. The Reapers are far too large to enter the Citadel proper to notice the conduit, and their indoctrinated slaves wouldn't have known unless they were part of the project.
3. Poor art choices on the developers part is my guess.
4. Vigil would have been in 'standby' until appropriate triggers activated it, and due to corrupted hard and software, active run time caused a chain of failures that resulted in complete degredation.
5. Saren alone would not have been able to adiquately overpower all of C-Sec. He needed a way to get his Geth onto the citadel in large enough numbers and quickly enough to ensure success. Otherwise, Soveriegn would have been stuck outside with the ward arms closed and no way to get in while getting pouned by the Citadel fleet. And no, I don't think Sovereign's shields droped because of anything Shepard did in the Citadel, there is only so much beating a Reaper can take.
6. Wild speculation, but whatever.
2. Probably due to the nature of their research, the Ilos station was essentially a 'black' operation, and not on the records kept in the Citadel, which the reapers use to ensure a thorough sweep. Remember that just because the Mu relay was the only way to get to Ilos doesn't mean that Ilos was the only place to go from the Mu relay. There hundreds of systems in any cluster, and once they realized what was happening, the Ilos researchers cut their emissions to prevent detection by the Reapers, similar to a submarine going silent. The Reapers are far too large to enter the Citadel proper to notice the conduit, and their indoctrinated slaves wouldn't have known unless they were part of the project.
3. Poor art choices on the developers part is my guess.
4. Vigil would have been in 'standby' until appropriate triggers activated it, and due to corrupted hard and software, active run time caused a chain of failures that resulted in complete degredation.
5. Saren alone would not have been able to adiquately overpower all of C-Sec. He needed a way to get his Geth onto the citadel in large enough numbers and quickly enough to ensure success. Otherwise, Soveriegn would have been stuck outside with the ward arms closed and no way to get in while getting pouned by the Citadel fleet. And no, I don't think Sovereign's shields droped because of anything Shepard did in the Citadel, there is only so much beating a Reaper can take.
6. Wild speculation, but whatever.
#130
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 02:26
Zulu_DFA
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Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Conduit didn't tap into the Reaper Mass Relay network. The Conduit was the Prothean attempt to make their own relays, and they had put one end on the Citadel.
That was how they got back onto the Citadel in the first place. Was kind of a big plot point.
Since the Protheans built a (primitive, one-way) mass relay... yes. They were able to produce materials. It is possible to build a mass relay.
This info comes from Vigil only and is not supported by anything else. Which is exactly why it's a subject of my doubt.
My doubt is amplified by the fact that Vigil implies that the Reapers, otherwise "completely thorough" (Vigils' own words), overlooked the new "monument" on the Citadel and missed the Ilos facility or the planet of Ilos altogether.
This is particularly unbelievable because Ilos was one of the nexi of the Prothean empire, well known even to the modern Asari archaeologists from second-hand sources.
The facility itself, however "secret", could not be concealed from the Reapers once they were on Ilos, because of it's massive energy (dark energy, eezo) output. Even the Normandy SR-1 (quite primitive compared to Reaper standards) can detect much smaller compounds on and below planets' surfaces as "anomalies".
Hence, Vigil was lying.
Theoristitis wrote...
OP:
I very much like your "Main Point" and the supernova mention (Part of me whimsically thinks that the "beings of light" could, in fact, BE stars). However, I don't think Vigil is lying. If he was part of the Reapers' plan, he had no reason to aid Shepard in ultimately defeating Sovereign.
There maybe many reasons why would Vigil help (or "help") against Sovereign:
1. Sovereign as a "renegade" Reaper, not a team player. Vigil as an agent of the "orthodox" Reapers -- Harbinger & Co.
2. Vigil as Sovereign's avatar. "Datafile" = Sovereign's backup. Was not required to access the Citadel mainframe and Shepard theoretically could do it without the datafile, so the actual Sovereign could not be sure if Shepard had uploaded it, and continued to fight to the end. This one goes against my argument about Sovereign having absolute necessity to go to Ilos, but maybe there's even more to it. Maybe Sovereign had not had the "key" before Saren went there, and the "datafile" is Sovereign's backup + the "key".
3. Vigil wasn't actualy helping, it was only stalling Shepard. If not for the blah-blah with Vigil, Shepard could tag Saren before he reached the Council Chamber. May work with or without #2.
4. Anything else, some as of yet unknown and undiscernible point that Bioware will reveal only in the last chapter.
In any case, the "datafile" may turn out to be like the Reaper IFF -- a goody with a nasty surprise.
Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:34 .
#131
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 02:45
SimonTheFrog
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Wait wait... that "monument" is not new, is it? I thought this is how the citadel is the relay which is used by the Reapers! The conduit was only a link to this monument.
Ilos wasn't uncovered because it was a secret facility and the secret got lost during the initial attack. But indeed, why does Liara know, then? Well, maybe the secret was not sooo secret among Protheans, they just didn't write it into their star-charts, pretty much like nuclear reactors on earth. Everyone knows where they are but they are not depicted on maps.
I agree that a lot of stuff about vigil is messed up, but i highly doubt it's intentionally messed up. I think its just sloppy writing, t.b.h.
(Also, if he would have wanted to stall Shep, he just could have done so. He certainly wanted to help Shep. So, if you say that the "help" was a trick, none of your suggestions sofar are convincing. Why would opening the relay be a rogue act? We know as a fact that Reapers do indeed wipe out periodically (Chorban! if you don't trust vigil or the beacons as source.) Why would Sovereign involve Shep in any contingency plan for opening the relay? He does pretty fine without Shep. In fact, Shep only causes trouble. If vigil intentionally stalled, why not stall just 5 minutes longer?!).
Sorry, but as i said, i think you are using sloppy writing as leads for a very complex theory. But i guess the only way to be sure is to wait for ME3
Ilos wasn't uncovered because it was a secret facility and the secret got lost during the initial attack. But indeed, why does Liara know, then? Well, maybe the secret was not sooo secret among Protheans, they just didn't write it into their star-charts, pretty much like nuclear reactors on earth. Everyone knows where they are but they are not depicted on maps.
I agree that a lot of stuff about vigil is messed up, but i highly doubt it's intentionally messed up. I think its just sloppy writing, t.b.h.
(Also, if he would have wanted to stall Shep, he just could have done so. He certainly wanted to help Shep. So, if you say that the "help" was a trick, none of your suggestions sofar are convincing. Why would opening the relay be a rogue act? We know as a fact that Reapers do indeed wipe out periodically (Chorban! if you don't trust vigil or the beacons as source.) Why would Sovereign involve Shep in any contingency plan for opening the relay? He does pretty fine without Shep. In fact, Shep only causes trouble. If vigil intentionally stalled, why not stall just 5 minutes longer?!).
Sorry, but as i said, i think you are using sloppy writing as leads for a very complex theory. But i guess the only way to be sure is to wait for ME3
Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 16 novembre 2010 - 02:46 .
#132
Posté 22 novembre 2010 - 10:37
Nashiktal
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Why does Liara know about Ilos? It is apparently common knowledge in the ME universe. The Quarians knew about it, they wanted to go colonize it remember?
#133
Posté 22 novembre 2010 - 11:01
luakel
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Ilos is mentioned at alot of the other Prothean sites that have been found. It's just that no one has been able to find Ilos itself, so it exists in a medium between fact and legend in the present day of Mass Effect. Since Liara had researched Protheans, she knew about it, but no one knew how to get there with the Mu Relay missing. Dunno when the Quarians mention colonizing it, does Tali say that if she's in your squad?Nashiktal wrote...
Why does Liara know about Ilos? It is apparently common knowledge in the ME universe. The Quarians knew about it, they wanted to go colonize it remember?
I'm just confused as to how the Council is able to know that Vigil can't be accessed anymore, since that indicates that they actually sent someone to check it out. But for that someone to get to Ilos, they'd have to go through the Terminus, which seems like a big no-no for the Council. Unless they're just lying to shut Shepard up...
#134
Posté 22 novembre 2010 - 11:36
Zulu_DFA
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Emily Wong reports that the 5th Fleet's tour concludes "at the contested planet Ilos", which the Salarians call galactic heritage, and refuse to recognize the Alliance's claim of the planet.
At least if the Council is Human led, and doesn't bother with upholding the old Council's silly convetions...
Point in question is, however, that the Reapers couldn't miss Ilos during the last culling, since it was such a well known nexus of the Prothean Empire. Nor could they miss just the Conduit Facility, once they were there, because its energy signature would be too massive and anomalous to conceal, and even the Normandy can detect much smaller and "deader" Prothean sites from orbit.
So, Vigil was lying.
At least if the Council is Human led, and doesn't bother with upholding the old Council's silly convetions...
Point in question is, however, that the Reapers couldn't miss Ilos during the last culling, since it was such a well known nexus of the Prothean Empire. Nor could they miss just the Conduit Facility, once they were there, because its energy signature would be too massive and anomalous to conceal, and even the Normandy can detect much smaller and "deader" Prothean sites from orbit.
So, Vigil was lying.
Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 novembre 2010 - 11:37 .
#135
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 12:32
Arijharn
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Care to cite your source of Ilos being a 'well known nexus of the Prothean Empire'?
Considering Vigil actively works to sabotage the Reapers plans, I think you're seeing a conspiracy where you want too.
Considering Vigil actively works to sabotage the Reapers plans, I think you're seeing a conspiracy where you want too.
#136
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Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 12:36
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Zulu_DFA wrote...
[...]
Saren had many options:
- "recruit" more spectres
- train more krogans, send them to the Citadel Wards
- smuggle & stockpile weapons in the Wards
- wait till the Heretics' virus is complete and "recruit" more geth
- try out the "Palpatine" (just try it out, with an option to back down if it wouldn't work)
- during all this and anything else avoid any open action against the Council or associate races.
Instead he goes straight for the option with the least probability of success: search for a lost planet, connected to the rest of the Galaxy by a lost relay, and may have a "back door" to sqeeze a few ground troops on the Presidium. In the process he alerts the Citadel that something is happening.
This characterizes Saren and Sovereign as idiots. Unless Ilos was not a simple "back door" to the Citadel, but the only way to activate the Citadel. How was it the only way, if it was a simple "back door"? Going to Ilos had to be critical to be worth the trouble. So that not going to Ilos would invalidate all the other options, make them pointless, not working even if 100% successful.
Without going to Ilos, Shepard wouldn't have the "datafile" to (apparently) wrestle the control of the Citadel from Sovereign.
What was it Saren wouldn't have without going to Ilos? What was that Vigil forgot to mention?
Drop Saren. He has nothing to do beyond following Sovereign's plan.
Sovereign has no idea what happens when he tries anything with the Citadel. For all we know, the Citadel is the only way to get his bros back and failing with that is dooming your entire kind in this case. Upon using it... the Keepers could explode, the relay could switch all protons to electrons, reaper core could turn into basketball... limitless possibilities. He had to make sure whatever the remains of Protheans did that Keepers aren't listening anymore, is not going to sabotage this holy object that is the Citadely.
So, with each of your options there's a 1 divided by 0 state in which the Citadel becomes unusable. This means he has to be 100% sure, because any less means an infinite probability of failure, given that there is no future for this entity, if gone into this state. 1/0 * X = infinity. Twist how you want, if there's this one bad state like this, it has to be entirely ruled out before proceeding with evaluating options.
The Citadel is the only relay, as the game shows us how Reapers are stranded far in dark space and they never come after all this, anyway.
The Collectors are just heavily modified Prothean era beings.
As for Vigil turning off... I can imagine using the relay could be quite taxing. Not to mention the force fields. Sometimes the system needs some extra to exit and enter the idle mode, too. All that could have burned... say... the device that maintains order when starting a complicated system (they exist)... would be enough to make an otherwise healthy system from operating. Also, there's this theory of Citadel indoctrination. They could have thought it's dead before even trying.
Either way, if you have states with sub states where failure is not an option, the parent state becomes the state of certain failure, thus the success of sub states must be ensured by other means.
Not that your options are bad, it's just they all don't compute.
Modifié par NewMessageN00b, 23 novembre 2010 - 12:39 .
#137
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 12:44
Zulu_DFA
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Codex.Arijharn wrote...
Care to cite your source of Ilos being a 'well known nexus of the Prothean Empire'?
Also logic. If it is known to archaeologists from references in the ruins in other corners of the Galaxy, those references must have been put there some long time ago by somebody extinct.
Considering Vigil is the only source of information about the particularities of the Reapers' plans, I think I reserve the judgement as to how actively it works to do what.Arijharn wrote...
Considering Vigil actively works to sabotage the Reapers plans, I think you're seeing a conspiracy where you want too.
#138
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 02:06
Mallissin
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The Mu Relay issue is an interesting point I hadn't considered.
Hawking Eta is where the disabled Reaper was located in ME2.
The battle that caused the scar on Klendagon (Century) and the disabled Reaper, could have been in the star system that went supernova (which I assume would have been in the center of the nebula it formed).
We know the dark energy issues seem to have their origins either with the Reapers or the Mass Relays. Perhaps the star that went nova hosted not only the Mu Relay but also the disabled Reaper licking it's wounds. The combination over an extended period caused the star to become unstable, and the Reaper limps away to avoid the explosion.
It probably took further damage as it fled and hid on the gas giant where we found it (Thorne).
Hawking Eta is where the disabled Reaper was located in ME2.
The battle that caused the scar on Klendagon (Century) and the disabled Reaper, could have been in the star system that went supernova (which I assume would have been in the center of the nebula it formed).
We know the dark energy issues seem to have their origins either with the Reapers or the Mass Relays. Perhaps the star that went nova hosted not only the Mu Relay but also the disabled Reaper licking it's wounds. The combination over an extended period caused the star to become unstable, and the Reaper limps away to avoid the explosion.
It probably took further damage as it fled and hid on the gas giant where we found it (Thorne).
Modifié par Mallissin, 23 novembre 2010 - 02:07 .
#139
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 03:13
eldav
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This is not maybe the topic....but its great.
#140
Guest_Planet_Side_*
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 03:15
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a lot of people seem to forget that the "beings of light" were just something kuman shol i think thats his name had someone tell him in a dream...so they may only have been just something they added for whatever reason he could have been doing a little too much red sand before bedtime.
#141
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 04:03
Nashiktal
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luakel wrote...
Ilos is mentioned at alot of the other Prothean sites that have been found. It's just that no one has been able to find Ilos itself, so it exists in a medium between fact and legend in the present day of Mass Effect. Since Liara had researched Protheans, she knew about it, but no one knew how to get there with the Mu Relay missing. Dunno when the Quarians mention colonizing it, does Tali say that if she's in your squad?Nashiktal wrote...
Why does Liara know about Ilos? It is apparently common knowledge in the ME universe. The Quarians knew about it, they wanted to go colonize it remember?
I'm just confused as to how the Council is able to know that Vigil can't be accessed anymore, since that indicates that they actually sent someone to check it out. But for that someone to get to Ilos, they'd have to go through the Terminus, which seems like a big no-no for the Council. Unless they're just lying to shut Shepard up...
Yes if you bring Tali along with you to Ilos she mentions how her people wanted to colonize Ilos. She quickly mentions how wrong it feels to tread its ground though.
#142
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 09:41
Zulu_DFA
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Mallissin wrote...
The Mu Relay issue is an interesting point I hadn't considered.
Hawking Eta is where the disabled Reaper was located in ME2.
Wait... Are you saying that in ME1 you jump to Ilos from the Eta Hawking cluster?
#143
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 08:21
Mallissin
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Zulu_DFA wrote...
Mallissin wrote...
The Mu Relay issue is an interesting point I hadn't considered.
Hawking Eta is where the disabled Reaper was located in ME2.
Wait... Are you saying that in ME1 you jump to Ilos from the Eta Hawking cluster?
Uh, yah.
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Mu_Relay
"The Mu Relay is the only relay that links to the Prothean planet of Ilos. The Galaxy Map puts the path to Ilos, and therefore the Mu Relay, in Hawking Eta.
"
#144
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 08:27
Zulu_DFA
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This can't be a coincidence, can it?
#145
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 08:42
Killjoy Cutter
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Arijharn wrote...
...I think you're seeing a conspiracy where you want too.
We are talking about the same person who touts the "wild Mako re-entry" hypothesis as indisputable fact.
#146
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 08:45
Killjoy Cutter
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Nashiktal wrote...
luakel wrote...
Ilos is mentioned at alot of the other Prothean sites that have been found. It's just that no one has been able to find Ilos itself, so it exists in a medium between fact and legend in the present day of Mass Effect. Since Liara had researched Protheans, she knew about it, but no one knew how to get there with the Mu Relay missing. Dunno when the Quarians mention colonizing it, does Tali say that if she's in your squad?Nashiktal wrote...
Why does Liara know about Ilos? It is apparently common knowledge in the ME universe. The Quarians knew about it, they wanted to go colonize it remember?
I'm just confused as to how the Council is able to know that Vigil can't be accessed anymore, since that indicates that they actually sent someone to check it out. But for that someone to get to Ilos, they'd have to go through the Terminus, which seems like a big no-no for the Council. Unless they're just lying to shut Shepard up...
Yes if you bring Tali along with you to Ilos she mentions how her people wanted to colonize Ilos. She quickly mentions how wrong it feels to tread its ground though.
Wild speculation -- the Quarians knew where Ilos was but didn't tell anyone because everyone else treats them like crap most of the time...
#147
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 08:59
Zulu_DFA
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Wild speculation -- Asari wanted to search for Ilos by travelling the sector's stars at conventional FTL speeds, just hadn't raised enough funds before Shepard found the My Relay. Oh wait, it's written in the Codex!Killjoy Cutter wrote....
Wild speculation -- the Quarians knew where Ilos was but didn't tell anyone because everyone else treats them like crap most of the time...
Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 novembre 2010 - 09:00 .
#148
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 09:09
Anacronian Stryx
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If you bring Tali she finds the planet eerie and feels as if they are trespassing there. She claims the quarians once tried to find Ilos as a new potential homeworld.
#149
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 09:10
Killjoy Cutter
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Zulu_DFA wrote...
Wild speculation -- Asari wanted to search for Ilos by travelling the sector's stars at conventional FTL speeds, just hadn't raised enough funds before Shepard found the My Relay. Oh wait, it's written in the Codex!Killjoy Cutter wrote....
Wild speculation -- the Quarians knew where Ilos was but didn't tell anyone because everyone else treats them like crap most of the time...
It's not as if what you point out would invalidate my wild speculation.
#150
Posté 23 novembre 2010 - 09:11
Killjoy Cutter
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Anacronian Stryx wrote...
If you bring Tali she finds the planet eerie and feels as if they are trespassing there. She claims the quarians once tried to find Ilos as a new potential homeworld.
Is it actually "once tried to find"? If so, that would make my wild speculation pretty unlikely to be the case.
