363 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

supakillaii wrote...

How does the fact that Reapers will attack Earth point that Ilos was the Prothean homeworld?

Let's say it's a hunch.

The Humans are a "chosen race". The Reapers start by invading Earth.

The concept of the "cycle" is that everything occurs the same way it always occured before, so since the Protheans were the "chosen race" one cycle back, the Reapers might just as well have started with their planet of origin.

Also, there are certain points of curiousity about the Protheans, which would be nice to be answered. Among them: How come the Protheans were the single spacefaring race in the Galaxy 50K years ago? And where was their planet of origin?

Ilos just seems a good candidate to turn out to be it.

[supakillaii]

We don't know if they start with Earth.

And if the Old Machines would start with the planet of origin, they would have struck Ilos first, which they didn't.

[darth_lopez]

this is alot of conjecture though it does seem plausible....it would be the biggest bioware story flip in history and well BW is frankly known for trying to and executing this sorta story flip >> i.e. Sarens Space ship was the bad guy, The Geth aren't evil, Collectors are protheans, Rachni are still alive, You are Darth Revan...BW does this sort of plot/game changing trick alot...

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The concept of the "cycle" is that everything occurs the same way it always occured before, so since the Protheans were the "chosen race" one cycle back, the Reapers might just as well have started with their planet of origin.

I dunno, I can't buy that the Protheans could wipe out data in the Citadel about their homeworld. Ilos, as a 'small' research station that managed to be purged from the databases makes more sense, but a homeworld would have many 'hits' in terms of database entries, and the smarter prothean indoctrinated would surely be able to remember it.

If I was a Reaper, I would hit their homeworld straight after I hit the Citadel, and I would make sure that finding out about the homeworld would be a priority because hitting a homeworld I should imagine would have immense psychological effect on my enemy.

I can't imagine that Ilos could be their homeworld simply because it would make the Reapers sound less threatening.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The concept of the "cycle" is that everything occurs the same way it always occured before, so since the Protheans were the "chosen race" one cycle back, the Reapers might just as well have started with their planet of origin.

I dunno, I can't buy that the Protheans could wipe out data in the Citadel about their homeworld. Ilos, as a 'small' research station that managed to be purged from the databases makes more sense, but a homeworld would have many 'hits' in terms of database entries, and the smarter prothean indoctrinated would surely be able to remember it.

If I was a Reaper, I would hit their homeworld straight after I hit the Citadel, and I would make sure that finding out about the homeworld would be a priority because hitting a homeworld I should imagine would have immense psychological effect on my enemy.

I can't imagine that Ilos could be their homeworld simply because it would make the Reapers sound less threatening.

Ilos wasn't a "small research station". It was a major and glorious nexus of the Prothean empire. The Galactic map says so, the Codex says so, and Liara says so.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ilos

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 décembre 2010 - 03:17 .

[Arijharn]

Yes, I know it isn't a 'small research station' in terms of it's importance, just that it must therefore be less important than say the homeworld of the species, which I note that you didn't refute.

[HolyJellyfish]

If the Reapers destroyed other technologically advanced species, it doesn't really explain why they 'taught' the Hanar the concept of culture.



It is an interesting idea, but I think we need to suspend our beliefs a little bit and appreciate the story without mulling over the plot holes.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Yes, I know it isn't a 'small research station' in terms of it's importance, just that it must therefore be less important than say the homeworld of the species, which I note that you didn't refute.

Ilos may or may not have been the Protheans' planet of origin, but it was big and well enough known across the Prothean empire, to make it possible for Liara and other archaeologists to decuce its existence, importance and even the sector of the Galaxy it was located in and which mass relay led to it, 50K years after the Protheans went extict. If not for the supernova, Ilos would have been found by the Asari long ago.

This makes what Vigil said about it bullsh*t. The Reapers could not miss it, as the Mu Relay was in place back then, and scores of references to Ilos were to be found on other Prothean worlds (the same references some of which lasted 50K years to be uncovered by the Asari). Hence, Vigil was lying.

But Ilos was definitely special: It has the Conduit and a lying VI, and Sovereign was interested in it. So there must have been a reason for it to be special. This reason may have been that it was the Protheans' planet of origin.

[supakillaii]

Ah yes, "Lying VI", haven't we dismissed this claim already?

Looking at it's state, I don't think the Old Machines missed it, or we could have found live Protheans there. Conduit was in a new, just finished, top secret, high tech research station.

[Zulu_DFA]

supakillaii wrote...

Ah yes, "Lying VI", haven't we dismissed this claim already?

Dismiss it. Doesn't make Vigil's tale any more trustworthy.

supakillaii wrote...

Looking at it's state, I don't think the Old Machines missed it, or we could have found live Protheans there. Conduit was in a new, just finished, top secret, high tech research station.

Ah, yes, "secret facilities"... Sure. Too bad for the Reapers they didn't invent the planet scanning minigame.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:06 .

[Uber Rod]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

- The Reapers don't need to use the Citadel to get in the Milky Way. Check.
- The Reapers don't need to use the Citadel early in the invasion. Check.


VIGIL'S LIES

One thing about Vigil is that its story makes no sense.

1. The "12 scientists" went through the Conduit and never returned to Ilos, so where does this anti-Reaper "datafile" you've uploaded to the Citadel mainframe come from?

2. Why weren't the omnipotent Reapers able to find Ilos 50K years ago? Especially when a small replica mass relay appeared at the Citadel? Especially when Ilos isn't all that secret to the Asari archaeologists even after 50K years of Protheans being extinct.

3. Why do the Prothean statues on Ilos look like husks?

4. Why Vigil was able to maintain itself for 50K years, then could not maintain itself for a few weeks more?

5. What was that Saren & Sovereign needed on Ilos? Yeah, I know, the Conduit for the backdoor diversion... But it makes sense only as a second option, only next to Plan A "Go Palpatine and/or indoctrinate the Council". And even then, infiltrating the Citadel in a more customary fashion would be a more reliable and subtle plan.

6. Finally, Chorban finds that the Keepers are supposed to receive a certain signal every 50K years. Vigil "guessed" that the signal was supposed to come from Sovereign, and the "12 scientists" had altered the receiving apparatus on the Citadel, so Sovereign must have sent that signal already to no avail... But what if there is something more to it?

1. the scientists figured out about the Keepers before leaving for the Citadel. A copy of the datafile remained with Vigil.
2. As was explained the Reapers only have information on planets stored in the Citadel databanks. Normally the Citadel becomes the Galactic capital and has all the census data. If a colony, etc. is not found in the records at the Citadel, the Reapers will have no idea about it. The location of Ilos was destroyed in the initial attack, thus the Reapers had no idea about Ilos.
3. Good question on the statues. Maybe most of the current husks are Protheans who didn't become Collectors? 
4. This is a simple plot device to keep Shepard from being validated and thus drives the story. Normally it should have been a given that the Council would find something.
5. Yeah, I would have done it different. Saren took the hard way. Again if he had done it differently there wouldn't be much of a game.
6.  I'm not seeing anything to indicate there was anything else to this.

[xxLDZxx]

This Game name is "Massefect a epic tale of commander shepard" and not "Dont even try to win becouse you will allways lose effect"

You can qustion the Gamplay mechnic a few decisions that your caractar has done, but not the story there is some wehre story writer that thought that this decisen is the best, imersive or even for this specific race the best choise to act, think. We can only folow it and if this is happen what happens in game you cant change it life with it.

Dont look to this case with human logic, only becouse you think this is right a reper woud say no its not.
Only becouse 1+1=2 for you a ather specis woud say it =1.5 or E or what ever.

Modifié par xxLDZxx, 26 décembre 2010 - 10:37 .

[Alexander Kogan]

The Leviathan was not dead it disappeared, meaning it is out there somewhere. Besides, a gigantic billion-year old living starship could come in handy against the Reapers. And what about those crypts of the "beings of light" that the volus on Klencory is searching for? The planet's description in ME1 clearly hints at their involvement in ME3 as it says that there is something there that was made to protect organic life from the "machine devils" aka the Reapers.

Modifié par Alexander Kogan, 26 décembre 2010 - 10:57 .

[supakillaii]

Uber Rod wrote...
3. Good question on the statues. Maybe most of the current husks are Protheans who didn't become Collectors? 

No.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Bluh bluh data was everywhere

They had days weeks months years decades centuries to study the Prothean remains, the Old Machines didn't care for that since they [thought] they had all the data they need.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But Ilos was definitely special: It has the Conduit, a VI, and Sovereign was interested in it. So there must have been a reason for it to be special. This reason may have been that it was the Protheans' planet of origin.

If it was their PoO, there's no chance the Old Machines would have missed anything on the planet. Likely just the Illium of Protheans or something lke that.

[Zulu_DFA]

A quick theory on the Reapers' origins I've just come up with:

There was an ancient hyperadvanced civilization. But it was divided into two parties: the first wanted to remain organic, and the second wanted to become cybernetic. The first party built the Citadel (an ark ship), the second party built the Omega (a Reaper factory), and turned themsleves into Reapers. Then the second party (now, the Reapers) wiped out the first party. Or the first party somehow turned into the "beings of light". For some reason the Reapers can't destroy the Citadel (perhaps that reason is that they need it to keep the "beings of light" passive or something).


Another quick theory, concerning the Reapers' goals:

They seem to be pretty obsessed with being free of all weakness, and boast that they are. However, they can't be possibly lying to themselves. They are bound by the laws of physics (those that still work in the ME universe anyway) and can't escape the theoretically inevitable heat death of the universe. So that must be their goal: to overcome this last weakness and transcend the boundaries of the physical universe.

Maybe that's what that "first party" managed to achieve, when they became the "beings of light". Of course then, technically, they don't exist anymore, so no wonder they've had some trouble with protecting the Galaxy from the "machine devils"... Yet the Reapers envy them and want to go "there" too.

"We seek salvation,” [Reaper-possessed] Grayson said, much to her [Kahlee Sanders'] surprise. “Ours and yours."
- ME: Retribution

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 08 février 2011 - 04:44 .

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How come the Protheans were the single spacefaring race in the Galaxy 50K years ago?

Roll of the dice. It's certainly not an impossible scenario. Additionally, given that their technology is superior to that of the current galactic civilization (aside from things reverse-engineered from Sovereign's corpse such as the Thanix Cannon perhaps), I'd also bet that they were nearing the space age when the cycle prior to their destruction took place, giving them a relative "head start" as compared to the current civilization.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How come the Protheans were the single spacefaring race in the Galaxy 50K years ago?

Roll of the dice. It's certainly not an impossible scenario.

The Reapers don't seem like they would tolerate such thing as "roll of the dice".

The Smoking Man wrote...
Additionally, given that their technology is superior to that of the current galactic civilization (aside from things reverse-engineered from Sovereign's corpse such as the Thanix Cannon perhaps), I'd also bet that they were nearing the space age when the cycle prior to their destruction took place, giving them a relative "head start" as compared to the current civilization.

And what makes you think the Protheans had superior technology? Aside from that fact that eventually they did, when the Reapers came to "ascend" them.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:42 .

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How come the Protheans were the single spacefaring race in the Galaxy 50K years ago?

Roll of the dice. It's certainly not an impossible scenario.

The Reapers don't seem like they would tolerate such thing as "roll of the dice".

I don't see why the Reapers would be bothered if there was only one spacefaring species at the time a cycle begins.

The Smoking Man wrote...
Additionally, given that their technology is superior to that of the current galactic civilization (aside from things reverse-engineered from Sovereign's corpse such as the Thanix Cannon perhaps), I'd also bet that they were nearing the space age when the cycle prior to their destruction took place, giving them a relative "head start" as compared to the current civilization.

And what makes you think the Protheans had superior technology? Aside from that fact that eventually they did, when the Reapers came to "ascend" them.

The fact that all the races are interested in digging up lost Prothean technology. And nobody during this age has those nifty little beacons, nor do they have those liquidy sphere things that do... stuff.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:51 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How come the Protheans were the single spacefaring race in the Galaxy 50K years ago?

Roll of the dice. It's certainly not an impossible scenario.

The Reapers don't seem like they would tolerate such thing as "roll of the dice".

I don't see why the Reapers would be bothered if there was only one spacefaring species at the time a cycle begins.

The Reapers would bother to insure to have at least one spacefaring race per each cycle. And they also seem to bother that there is a "chosen race". Like the Humans. Who were destined to conquer the Galaxy on behalf of the Reapers, then get reaped. Until something (Mu relay supernova, Sovereign's interference) went horribly wrong with the Grand Plan, and now the Reapers have to get destroyed, while the Humans will conquer the Galaxy on their own.

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote....

The Smoking Man wrote...

Additionally, given that their technology is superior to that of the current galactic civilization (aside from things reverse-engineered from Sovereign's corpse such as the Thanix Cannon perhaps), I'd also bet that they were nearing the space age when the cycle prior to their destruction took place, giving them a relative "head start" as compared to the current civilization.

And what makes you think the Protheans had superior technology? Aside from that fact that eventually they did, when the Reapers came to "ascend" them.

The fact that all the races are interested in digging up lost Prothean technology.

Like all the races were interested in occasional deals with the Collectors? You do know where their advanced technology came from, right?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Like all the races are interested in occasional deals with the Collectors? You do know where their andvanced technology comes from, right?

There's a slight difference between getting ANDVANCED tech from old, dilapidated Prothean ruins and getting it fresh from mangled Protheans that people don't know were Protheans, you know.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Like all the races were interested in occasional deals with the Collectors? You do know where their advanced technology came from, right?

There's a slight difference between getting ADVANCED tech from old, dilapidated Prothean ruins and getting it fresh from mangled Protheans that people don't know were Protheans, you know.

Nothing says the tech found among Prothean ruins had been developed by the Protheans prior to the Reapers' arrival and the start of the "ascension" process. Nothing says the Protheans weren't living in harmony with their Reaper rulers for a few hundred years before fulfilling their purpose and being exterminated.

Listen to Mordin. He infers that the Collectors are just the final stage of what the Reapers did to the Protheans over several generations.

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Like all the races were interested in occasional deals with the Collectors? You do know where their advanced technology came from, right?

There's a slight difference between getting ADVANCED tech from old, dilapidated Prothean ruins and getting it fresh from mangled Protheans that people don't know were Protheans, you know.

Nothing says the tech found among Prothean ruins had been developed by the Protheans prior to the Reapers' arrival and the start of the "ascension" process. Nothing says the Protheans weren't living in harmony with their Reaper rulers for a few hundred years before fulfilling their purpose and being exterminated.

Listen to Mordin. He infers that the Collectors are just the final stage of what the Reapers did to the Protheans over several generations.

Nothing says that that's what happened, either. You're basically pulling a Turian councillor on me. "Ah yes, 'Prothean technology'. We have dismissed that claim."

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...
Nothing says that that's what happened, either. You're basically pulling a Turian councillor on me. "Ah yes, 'Prothean technology'. We have dismissed that claim."

The fact remains, however: after the Reapers f*cked up the Protheans, and it's been proven that they did it in a more perverted way than an mere orbital bombardement, there is no way to distinguish between the Prothean technology and the Reaper technology.

[The Smoking Man]

I added an edit to my post, but you replied after I made the edit, so I'll just put it in a new reply.

I'm also not sure how Mordin's inference can be any more credible than any of Vigil's inferences. Also note that the information on what happened with the Protheans when the Reapers starting doing their thing, aside from that they ultimately ended up getting Collector'd, came from Vigil. If Vigil's claims are dismissed, then the Protheans could've just been turned into Collectors and relocated to the Terminator Factory immediately for all anyone knows.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[Wittand25]

Ilios was definitely not the protean homeworld. The whole point why it was not attacked was that it was the newest and most secret research station of the proteans and that there were not even records about it on the citadel. The whole strategy of the reapers is that they attack the citadel, which is positioned in a way that it is practically guarantied to become the hub of any species advanced enough to use the mass relays and after capturing the citadel learn everything about the species they are going to reap from the data there. There is no way that there would not be data concerning the homeworld of the protheans on the citadel.



There are other reasons why earth makes a good target though. There is a mass relay in the sol system and once you have control over that it is virtually impossible for any attacker to enter it. So considering the main strategy of the reapers ( attacking the main capital of the galaxy and then reap severely weakened enemies) failed, it does not seem that far fetched that they would start reaping the systems one by one and of course because humans are special this puts earth high on the priority list, though I think that they will start with another planet to give Sheppard enough time to start collecting alien support before the grand finale on earth starts.