585 réponses à ce sujet

[izmirtheastarach]

PWENER wrote...

Hey, you just came into this thread, so why don't you read the 8 pages of discussion that lead to me saying that before making your post a fact. The nerve of some people.

I just came into this thread? My first post was three hours and five pages ago. And you are the one who responded to me.

[upsettingshorts]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

kill that blue sun engineer during garrus recruitment, reward: helicopter does not assrape you

Good one.  You're right.  Interrupts are almost their own animal though, it's not a Paragon vs. Renegade decision.  In that case it's Renegade or do nothing.  Other options are Paragon or do nothing.  They're easier to make and justify.

kill that asari merc in samara recruitment: reward she does not come back later to fight you

Does she?  I never noticed.  If she does, then ignore half of everything I've said previously about it.  I usually killed those guys pretty quick and the Police Captain implied she'd have to chase her, and I never questioned it.

though I admit more paragon options lead to better sucess such as not killing Wrex. Being the bad guy simply just doesn't appeal to children who play this game. They want to be the godamn hero that everyone loves.

Renegade options should be reworked for ME3

You can talk Wrex down through intimidate can you not?  Plus you could do his armor quest.  It's more open ended than most decisions.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[PWENER]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Hey, you just came into this thread, so why don't you read the 8 pages of discussion that lead to me saying that before making your post a fact. The nerve of some people.

I just came into this thread? My first post was three hours and five pages ago. And you are the one who responded to me.

.......................... really? Sorry then.

[jbblue05]

Barquiel wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Where did you get that info from and I never said the whole fleet.

The Khalisah al-Jilani interview.



The turians lost 20 cruisers, the alliance 8

Wow if Shepard's sources are true Bioware really are just rewarding paragons

I already knew the Turians Salarians and Asari suffered the most from tSovereign's attack

The Alliance seems barely effected by choosing to save or not save the Council.
Really Bioware the Alliance just has 4 more cruisers if you left the Council to die

At least I got kill off those idiots

In ME 3 the Paragon path better lead to a more substantial death toll then the Renegade path.

But Bioware will make up some excuse so that Paragons save more people then Renegades

[Mecha Tengu]

jbblue05 wrote...


Really Bioware the Alliance just has 4 more cruisers if you left the Council to die

hey hey now, 4 cruisers is a lot of people

Modifié par Mecha Tengu, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:08 .

[izmirtheastarach]

Since the galactic treaty has no limits on cruisers, the Alliance fleet could have hundreds, for all we know.

[upsettingshorts]

I would have absolutely loved if in Mass Effect 1 you try to save the Council, but take to long to kill Sovereign and he opens up the vast Citadel Relay and you get a big GAME OVER message right after a cool cinematic in which a bunch of Reapers completely annihilate everyone. But then people would have complained about that, too.

(Make the Paragon v. Renegade choice, in that case, how to rebuild the Council - all humans or new council + humans)

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:09 .

[Xilizhra]

But to the bolded part of your paragraph, this is where I think you might be missing the point I'm trying to make. In Mass Effect 1 and 2, doing the right thing almost never adds to the degree of difficulty. The odds are the same. If being a Paragon made the odds tougher, than I'd be 100% behind your interpretation of the way the game works, but they really don't. Being a Renegade should be about evening the odds, setting it up so that it's more likely you get the job done.
And sometimes, the game presents it as just that. But since we all metagame, consciously or unconsciously, we can't help but notice how the Renegade choice never ends up improving the odds. Personally that makes it feel like the game is coddling me, reinforcing the comfortable decisions and reminding me I did the right thing. It's cheap, and I don't like it. A great example being how everyone on the ship gives you an attaboy after you blow up the Collector base. A little bit of controversy would go a long way. Someone with the balls to remind you that you just might regret the decision. NOPE. But hey, if you saved Rana Thanoptis your crew will sure speak up about that one. Gonna bite me in the ass, that decision. Thanks everyone I ever brought on that mission.

I would go full Paragon regardless of what the consequences were, so I wouldn't mind your system being implemented. But I like the way it is now too; I like the way that I can fully save the galaxy and be nice along the way. It's 100% completion, in a way. And I don't care much about the difficulty of the gameplay, as my first and foremost consideration is the story; if it's presented well, which it is, I don't mind what happens in the actual shooting bits.

Oh I don't doubt her fear of death was genuine. Her explanation about how she didn't belong there and made a mistake was the act. The Volus may have been a liar and a cheat, but I have no reason to doubt his explanation of the Eclipse entrance requirements.

I don't doubt it either. But I don't think that she deserved to die (I don't think that the murdered volus did either, but I can't fix that).

But we're getting far apart on the reason for bringing up that example: If you made the safe Renegade decision of shooting her in the face, you were rewarded - at least in part - by the audio record. I also proposed a Paragon penalty - if the game was more fair about handing out consequences - where she would show up during the boss battle if you spared her life. The specifics are more or less immaterial.

No arguments here. I generally don't make Renegade choices, and what happens in them alone is none of my concern. That said, some Renegade actions are rewarding, like destroying the reception committee in Miranda's loyalty mission, blowing up the Weyrloc clanspeaker, and frying Sergeant Cathka to gimp the gunship. And then there are the consequence-free fun ones, like throwing the Blue Suns recruiter's insult back in his face and headbutting Uvenk.

But Bioware will make up some excuse so that Paragons save more people then Renegades

Well... duh? Paragon is all about saving people and keeping them alive; Renegade cares less about that than just getting the job done.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:10 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Its wierd how Paragons never ever get treated badly by Bioware.

And Renegades get to be the hated punching bag.



Maybe they will change that in ME3 , I dont know. I personally play Paragade myself. The renegade interupts just make to much sense not to take.

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think that she deserved to die.

"Deserve's got nothin' to do with it."

Xilizhra wrote...
Well... duh? Paragon is all about saving people and keeping them alive; Renegade cares less about that than just getting the job done.

I disagree.

Paragon is about doing the right thing.  Renegade is about doing the easy thing.

A subtle but important distinction.  Sometimes doing the right thing will be much more costly.  Sometimes the easy thing will be.  Depends.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Xilizhra]

"Deserve's got nothin' to do with it."

I don't know the context, so what does?

I disagree.



Paragon is about doing the right thing. Renegade is about doing the easy thing.



A subtle but important distinction. Sometimes doing the right thing will be much more costly. Sometimes the easy thing will be. Depends.

Fair enough. However, Renegades, I've gotta ask; why do you care about what happens as a result of choices you're not taking?

[Mecha Tengu]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I disagree.

Paragon is about doing the right thing.  Renegade is about doing the easy thing.

agreed with Renegade

but define "right"

[upsettingshorts]

About the pic: I just take any opportunity I can to use it because I love that scene in Unforgiven. I can't really explain the context because I'd have to summarize the whole movie. Best I can do is say to watch the film.

As far as your question, even though I'm more Paragon than Renegade:
Metagaming really. I just think that making the good path easy is cheap, unrewarding, and patronizing.

Mecha Tengu wrote...

but define "right"

Ethical.  To elaborate:

Paragon: Decision based on ethics.  "She doesn't deserve to die."
Renegade: Decision based on expediency.  "She is a potential threat."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

About the pic: I just take any opportunity I can to use it because I love that scene in Unforgiven. I can't really explain the context because I'd have to summarize the whole movie. Best I can do is say to watch the film.

As far as your question, even though I'm more Paragon than Renegade:
Metagaming really. I just think that making the good path easy is cheap, unrewarding, and patronizing.

Ah, yes. I just know that I'm very forgiving.
And I understand your feelings. But I know that it's not cheap, unrewarding, or patronizing for Shepard herself, and that's good enough for me.

[The Big Nothing]

Barquiel wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...


You think the Alliance cares more about a PR boost and not about the fact that the Arcturus Fleet lost most of its ships.

Hackett lost eight cruisers, not the whole fleet.

I'll trade whatever I need to in order to keep the Destiny Ascension. The asari flagship will be a valuable asset in the Reaper invasion, methinks.

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, yes. I just know that I'm very forgiving.

An ethical person is very likely to appreciate the message of a film like Unforgiven. 

As far as my description of the problem goes, its actually very similar to how Yoda explained the light and dark sides of the force in The Empire Strikes Back.  It's not about which side is stronger, it's that the dark side is easier, quicker, more intense.  The Light side calls for sacrifice and discipline.  In Mass Effect being good doesn't cost a thing.  It ought to.  That's part of what makes it rewarding.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Paragon is only 'the right thing' by certain unbending moral standards which don't always hold up to context. The more you go to a instrumental standpoint of morality (actions are moral based on the overall effects) rather than an intrensic standpoint (various actions are inherently moral/immoral regardless of context), the less 'Paragon = Right' makes sense.



Take ME1's final choice, for example. I, for one, do not consider three people to outweigh the survival of all life. Three lives is three lives, but it does not have more value than four, or four hundred, or a million, or billions, when those three lives are not indespensible, and taking a gamble on everyone and everything for the sake of three political figures strikes me not only as reckless, but morally repugnant.



Other people, of course, disagree, and are no doubt quite indignant that someone thinks their well-intentioned decision was morally bad. But dem's the brakes.



Just I don't think Paragon can be called the 'right' way, Renegade is not simply the 'easy' way. Ease is not implied, but rather certainty. Making a renegade decision can be the right one for moral reasons, but be very hard to accept. But it can still be the right reason overall.

[jbblue05]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...


Really Bioware the Alliance just has 4 more cruisers if you left the Council to die

hey hey now, 4 cruisers is a lot of people

Yeah I know that but those 4 cruisers could be rebuilt in a year or two
if anything if you saved the Council the Alliance should've lost a dreadnought or two to really cripple the Alliance

I can't believe 4 cruisers is the difference between a military powerhouse and severely crippled Navy

[chris025657]

Upsettingshorts wrote...



Paragon is about doing the right thing.  Renegade is about doing the easy thing.

A subtle but important distinction.  Sometimes doing the right thing will be much more costly.  Sometimes the easy thing will be.  Depends.

Renegade is not about doing the easy thing. Renegade is more Machiavellian in the sense of doing whatever is necessary in the consideration of the greater good. 

[upsettingshorts]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Paragon is only 'the right thing' by certain unbending moral standards which don't always hold up to context.

I think you're right.  What I was attempting to show is that the game doesn't agree with you or me.

[upsettingshorts]

chris025657 wrote...
Renegade is not about doing the easy thing. Renegade is more Machiavellian in the sense of doing whatever is necessary in the consideration of the greater good. 

Yeah, expediency is a better word.

[Xilizhra]

Take ME1's final choice, for example. I, for one, do not consider three people to outweigh the survival of all life. Three lives is three lives, but it does not have more value than four, or four hundred, or a million, or billions, when those three lives are not indespensible, and taking a gamble on everyone and everything for the sake of three political figures strikes me not only as reckless, but morally repugnant.

Actually, it's more like 10000 lives vs. 2500 or so.The Destiny Ascension's crew are people too. And I'm not indignant in the least; humanity is a well-respected species among the Council now (more or less), the Citadel is stronger than ever, and I got to tell off Al-Jillani.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Does she?  I never noticed.  If she does, then ignore half of everything I've said previously about it.  I usually killed those guys pretty quick and the Police Captain implied she'd have to chase her, and I never questioned it.

She doesn't reappear, the cop herself says that she'll need to track her down.

[jbblue05]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...


You think the Alliance cares more about a PR boost and not about the fact that the Arcturus Fleet lost most of its ships.

Hackett lost eight cruisers, not the whole fleet.

I'll trade whatever I need to in order to keep the Destiny Ascension. The asari flagship will be a valuable asset in the Reaper invasion, methinks.

Destiny Ascension had plot armor until Shepard made his choice

Remember Reaper shields are impervious to dreadnought fire.  The Ascension better be happy Sovereign didn't pay them a visit and introduced his friend thanix cannon

The Ascension had all that muscle and didn't stand a chance against a couple geth dropships

[upsettingshorts]

In my very first game of Mass Effect 1, playing a close-to-pure Paragon, without the knowledge that all 3 decisions have the same outcome in that they stop Sovereign, I picked:

"Concentrate on Sovereign."

Not "Save the Council" or "Let the Council die."

The stakes were way too damn high for me to take any chances. If Sovereign doesn't die right then and there everyone dies.

After I got to tell Udina to shove his schemes up his ass, and we were going to rebuild the Council just the way it was.  I didn't sacrifice the Council for him, I did it for all of us.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:33 .