585 réponses à ce sujet

[JamieCOTC]

Renegade Shep: "I'm here to win a war, not friends."

Paragon Shep: "I'll sacrifice lives to win this war if I have to, but only if I have to."

[MrnDvlDg161]

What would be the big deal if you did destroy or keep it?  Anyone contemplate the size of that base? I mean it looked to me like a small sized asteroid if not a peice of a moon.  You detonate that thing and the absolute mess that would come afterwards would have a science-salvage team working for decades ( and it would be the same had it not) picking out information that was still stored in various areas floating around and the technology in general. Think about it --- floating bodies to recover and study. Weapons that would be scattered here and there --- terminals and computers that although may not be working, their hardware that stored information would still be waiting.   It didn't exactly turn into find particles like the Death Star --- it blew up --- shavings and peices are everywhere.

Secondly, I don't think I've herad anyone discuss the wealth of information/tech recovery/advancement oppertunities found in that massive ship grave yard that was mish-mashed all over and around the collector base.  Even Joker mentioned that there was a huge mass of destroyed ships --- some ancient.  From what what I saw in the background, whole ships were waiting for study and boarding! I mean aside from hull damage, I managed to see entirely saved bridges that probably have millions of bits of information, maybe even star charts to new worlds where new races can be found.  

I mean its a win/win situation in my view. Its not really a total loss, its just a more light pain to sift through it all...but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have taken them longer or shorter based on the fact it takes time to study these things anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Everyone else? 'Yes, that's nice, thanks for sharing you opinion. Now go back to work on this ship which houses no less than three mision-critical reaper technologies that Cerberus knows all about.'

Congrats, this post of yours finally convinced me that I'm saving the base in my canon (leaning Paragon) playthrough.  Pat yourself on the back. 

I knew you seemed reasonable.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 'Yes, that's nice, thanks for sharing you opinion. Now go back to work on this ship which houses no less than three mision-critical reaper technologies that Cerberus knows all about.'

Thanix cannon, EDI, and... I forget the third. 

First two at least based on very limited fragments of Reaper technology mixed with a lot of non-Reaper technology, taken from a thoroughly destroyed Reaper. 

Reaper IFF, which despite the trap was (a) necessary and ( capable of being stopped the moment EDI had access to the ship systems.

Thanix is pure Reaper technology recreated, EDI is an example of an integrated Reaper/Human tech system, and the IFF is a pure Reaper system re-purposed.

In contrast, look at what happened to the Cerberus team sent to the "dead" Reaper in what seems to have been under a month.  Don't think that there's any danger of something similar happening at the Collector home base?

No signs of indoctrination devices were ever present (sounds in people's heads), implied (the Collectors don't need a constant indoctrination field to be pliable), or discovered (by EDI hacking through the base's archives) on the many occassions it could have been found.

Nor, even if it were there, is there any reason to believe it's an unsurmountable or unmitigatable risk.

Nor, even if it did hit, do I see it as coming anywhere close to causing harm to our ability to fight the Reapers that isn't outweighed many times over just from the Collector-level technology.

So, no, no, and no again.

[Dean_the_Young]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

What would be the big deal if you did destroy or keep it?  Anyone contemplate the size of that base? I mean it looked to me like a small sized asteroid if not a peice of a moon.  You detonate that thing and the absolute mess that would come afterwards would have a science-salvage team working for decades ( and it would be the same had it not) picking out information that was still stored in various areas floating around and the technology in general. Think about it --- floating bodies to recover and study. Weapons that would be scattered here and there --- terminals and computers that although may not be working, their hardware that stored information would still be waiting.   It didn't exactly turn into find particles like the Death Star --- it blew up --- shavings and peices are everywhere.

The base is also only holding together as it is due to it's mass effect generators. A lot of things will be lost not only into the debris field, but the black holes.

You can scavange debris (Cerberus does in the book, the Shadow Broker boasts he will once he kills you), and you could make a lot of finds. But nowhere near as great, easily, or as fast as if the base and its systems were intact and organized.

Secondly, I don't think I've herad anyone discuss the wealth of information/tech recovery/advancement oppertunities found in that massive ship grave yard that was mish-mashed all over and around the collector base.  Even Joker mentioned that there was a huge mass of destroyed ships --- some ancient.  From what what I saw in the background, whole ships were waiting for study and boarding! I mean aside from hull damage, I managed to see entirely saved bridges that probably have millions of bits of information, maybe even star charts to new worlds where new races can be found.  

They'd be old Council-standard ships or from past cycles the Reapers already wiped out: antiques and with information the Council has had for hundreds (thousands) of years, or old news long dead. Very interesting historically and culturally, but not technologically and to contact other species. (Cause, you know, they'd be dead.)

[MrnDvlDg161]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

What would be the big deal if you did destroy or keep it?  Anyone contemplate the size of that base? I mean it looked to me like a small sized asteroid if not a peice of a moon.  You detonate that thing and the absolute mess that would come afterwards would have a science-salvage team working for decades ( and it would be the same had it not) picking out information that was still stored in various areas floating around and the technology in general. Think about it --- floating bodies to recover and study. Weapons that would be scattered here and there --- terminals and computers that although may not be working, their hardware that stored information would still be waiting.   It didn't exactly turn into find particles like the Death Star --- it blew up --- shavings and peices are everywhere.

The base is also only holding together as it is due to it's mass effect generators. A lot of things will be lost not only into the debris field, but the black holes.

You can scavange debris (Cerberus does in the book, the Shadow Broker boasts he will once he kills you), and you could make a lot of finds. But nowhere near as great, easily, or as fast as if the base and its systems were intact and organized.

Secondly, I don't think I've herad anyone discuss the wealth of information/tech recovery/advancement oppertunities found in that massive ship grave yard that was mish-mashed all over and around the collector base.  Even Joker mentioned that there was a huge mass of destroyed ships --- some ancient.  From what what I saw in the background, whole ships were waiting for study and boarding! I mean aside from hull damage, I managed to see entirely saved bridges that probably have millions of bits of information, maybe even star charts to new worlds where new races can be found.  

They'd be old Council-standard ships or from past cycles the Reapers already wiped out: antiques and with information the Council has had for hundreds (thousands) of years, or old news long dead. Very interesting historically and culturally, but not technologically and to contact other species. (Cause, you know, they'd be dead.)

How would you know their all council standard? Who is to say what kind of ships are in there, and --- even if they were old races the Reapers wiped out, it doesn't mean that the Alliance had that same type of tech back then in which they can infuse to new tech to make stonger ships/tech.

There aren't any absolutes ---  What happens if say a science vessel went through because they were able to find something the protheons made that was going to be a weapon against the reapers but some other ship that had an important element to that device was long in the Omega 4 Relay? And now its somewhere in that scrap yard waiting to be re-found?

The point I'm making is that some people are dealing in absolutes based on strong oppinions of how they would like to see a fictional universe go --- so if someone wants the Collector ship to survive and be some all-knowing answer to the galactical threat it will be.

If on the other hand it is dangerous and should be destroyed --- it will be.

Some writer on the ME team may just go a whole different route and sink everyone's conclusions as they did with the Shadow Broker story... then what?  

So it really is a circular argument because no one is right or wrong.

[MrnDvlDg161]

No signs of indoctrination devices were ever present (sounds in people's
heads), implied (the Collectors don't need a constant indoctrination
field to be pliable), or discovered (by EDI hacking through the base's
archives) on the many occassions it could have been found.

Nor, even if it were there, is there any reason to believe it's an unsurmountable or unmitigatable risk.

Nor,
even if it did hit, do I see it as coming anywhere close to causing
harm to our ability to fight the Reapers that isn't outweighed many
times over just from the Collector-level technology.

So, no, no, and no again.


=================================================================

As if there was time to see if there were any devices...or that they were even on the ship long enough for those devices to work while protheon/collectors, Harbinger, and the Terminator Reaper was trying to kill the team?

Who is to say that EDI's hacking system is 100 percent? Perhaps this time there was over-look. Took her a bit of time to figure out there was something up with the seemgily asleep Collector Ship.  

As far as risks...this is up to the individual is it not?  How far or not far one will go to attempt to find an answer. Put it this way, this is beauty of choice in the end... whether paragon or renagade. They both have " ifts" that can easily be overturned as fast as a plot twist in an ongoing Soap Opera.

Then we are assuming that the collector vessel is something that would help, it would ironic if the collector vessel was a form of a  garbage scow grade ship compared to others in the Reaper fleet or annexed fleets to help the reaper fleets.  Their pobably laughing it up in the Reaper mess hall talking about that crappy frieght of a Collector ship that the lame humans will poke around in when it was really a shoddy vessel that was about to be Medi-gelled at some point.

[Kaiser Shepard]

So, is it time to summarize all our big choices yet? No? Well, allow me to do so anyway:

Bring down the Sky, Balak: Killed, he was too big of a risk alive
Feros, Ethan Jeong: Intimidated into helping the colonists
Feros, Shiala: Left alive
Noveria, Port Hanshan: Gave the data to Shiala, although I liked Lorik better
Noveria, Rachni Queen: Exterminated this biohazard hivemind, which might or might not be an easy target for indoctrination
Virmire, Wrex: Convinced him through words, not by blackmailing him through his armor
Virmire, Kaisley: Saved Kaidan, because seeing to it that the bomb went off was the highest priority. Also, liked Kaidan better and he was more useful on a professional level.
Citadel, Saren: Charmed Saren into killing himself.
Citadel, Sovereign and the Citadel: Concentrate on Sovereign, nothing else matters!
Misc: UNC Hades' Dogs: Gave Cerberus data to Shadow Broker

Result: Human-led multiracial Council, with Anderson presiding as Chairman.

N7: Lost Operative: Kept the data, didn't trust Cerberus and the Alliance was just another way to Rome
N7: Javelin Missiles Launched: Saved the city, seemed like the only option for me
Garrus Loyalty: Killed Sidonis after hearing his side of the story, let Garrus shoot Harkin as well
Jack Loyalty: Killed the guy myself, because the intimidate option was too Palpatine-ish for me
Jacob Loyalty: Let Mr. Taylor expierence his own private hell
Kasumi Loyalty: Destroyed the graybox, because I didn't want Kasumi to keep living in the past and the data was a severe security risk. Also, using it to blackmail the Alliance is below my Shepard.
Legion Loyalty: Destroyed the Heretic geth on the base because I judge them as I would any other enemy that started a war against me. Also, reintegrating could lead to unforeseen consequences.
Miranda Loyalty: At first told her to go see her sis, but respected her wishes to not do just that. Also, let her kill Niket.
Mordin Loyalty: Hardest choice. Too Many variables. Trust Mordin's research. Don't want to endanger Wrex' plan. Urdnot Wrex also told Maelon off. Data destroyed, trust Mordin's ability to recreate if necessary. Maelon disposed off.
Samara Loyalty: Chose the more honorful option, which is letting Samara live. Also respect my little Justicar. Don't care about her possibly turning on me in the future, can deal with her then.
Tali Loyalty: Intimidate the Admiralty Board for using me and being idiots. Didn't hug the quarian.
Thane Loyalty: Beat up Kelham, shot Talim myself. Convinced Bailey to let Kolyat work for him.
Zaeed Loyalty: Killed Vido, see Balak for more info.
Overlord: Freed David, pistol whipped Gavin.

Collector Base: Destroyed, because I don't trust TIM with it. Nor would I trust anyone else except the Orthodox geth with it. Also: Giant space explosion.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:09 .

[Dean_the_Young]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

What would be the big deal if you did destroy or keep it?  Anyone contemplate the size of that base? I mean it looked to me like a small sized asteroid if not a peice of a moon.  You detonate that thing and the absolute mess that would come afterwards would have a science-salvage team working for decades ( and it would be the same had it not) picking out information that was still stored in various areas floating around and the technology in general. Think about it --- floating bodies to recover and study. Weapons that would be scattered here and there --- terminals and computers that although may not be working, their hardware that stored information would still be waiting.   It didn't exactly turn into find particles like the Death Star --- it blew up --- shavings and peices are everywhere.

The base is also only holding together as it is due to it's mass effect generators. A lot of things will be lost not only into the debris field, but the black holes.

You can scavange debris (Cerberus does in the book, the Shadow Broker boasts he will once he kills you), and you could make a lot of finds. But nowhere near as great, easily, or as fast as if the base and its systems were intact and organized.

Secondly, I don't think I've herad anyone discuss the wealth of information/tech recovery/advancement oppertunities found in that massive ship grave yard that was mish-mashed all over and around the collector base.  Even Joker mentioned that there was a huge mass of destroyed ships --- some ancient.  From what what I saw in the background, whole ships were waiting for study and boarding! I mean aside from hull damage, I managed to see entirely saved bridges that probably have millions of bits of information, maybe even star charts to new worlds where new races can be found.  

They'd be old Council-standard ships or from past cycles the Reapers already wiped out: antiques and with information the Council has had for hundreds (thousands) of years, or old news long dead. Very interesting historically and culturally, but not technologically and to contact other species. (Cause, you know, they'd be dead.)

How would you know their all council standard? Who is to say what kind of ships are in there, and --- even if they were old races the Reapers wiped out, it doesn't mean that the Alliance had that same type of tech back then in which they can infuse to new tech to make stonger ships/tech.

It comes to the question of 'who Collected before the Collectors', if anyone did: the Collectors were Protheans, after all, from the last cycle, and if the base was made at the end of the last cycle (being, you know, the Collector base), then it would more or less imply that the ships there have to be of this cycle. The current Council cycle. At which point, what the Council has now is far better than 'ancient' ships of the same cycle.

If, on the other hand, that wasn't it, and the base predates the Collectors themselves, the likelyhood is that any technology there from previous civilizations outpaces ours in any particulr respect is still minor. Consider: the Reapers targeted every civilization at a particular point of their development, capability-wise. Except for the current cycle, which is already hundreds of years in advance of any other comparative cycle (if Sovereign's attempt to use the Rachni was his first attempt), the Reaper cycle generally cut people off at a point we already passed or are at. And for the vast majority of those cycles, it would be the older/ancient vessels (long passed technologically) that would have passed through the relay: not only for the length of time to try, but as those civilizations got more advanced, they would have stopped wasting lives and ships going beyond the Relay of no Return. The ships that would go would be those of the desperate and the poor, which is rarely the best and technologically most advanced.


So, ships on the far side of the relay are either (a) all from this cycle, at which point the superior technology already resides with the Council, or ( from past cycles, the vast majority of which were behind our own tech.

Sifting through all that debris, hoping for something strategically useful, is a waste of time when the known more advanced Collector Base tech is in the same vicinity.

There aren't any absolutes ---  What happens if say a science vessel went through because they were able to find something the protheons made that was going to be a weapon against the reapers but some other ship that had an important element to that device was long in the Omega 4 Relay? And now its somewhere in that scrap yard waiting to be re-found?

Whose science vessel? The Council's, which does have the best technology in the galaxy? The Council already has it. The Batarians? They've never been described as scientific powerhouses, and they were outmatched by a young Alliance.

No one else knows about the Reapers before Shepard's discovery revealed what Saren had been hiding, and the Protheans certainly couldn't have been building anything on the far side of Omega 4 (if it even existed then), and therefore couldn't have hid anything there.

There aren't absolutes, but there are very, very unlikely happenings.

The point I'm making is that some people are dealing in absolutes based on strong oppinions of how they would like to see a fictional universe go --- so if someone wants the Collector ship to survive and be some all-knowing answer to the galactical threat it will be.

If on the other hand it is dangerous and should be destroyed --- it will be.

Some writer on the ME team may just go a whole different route and sink everyone's conclusions as they did with the Shadow Broker story... then what?  

So it really is a circular argument because no one is right or wrong.

Well, there will be a right or wrong, but that won't be proven until ME3. There is, however, sound and unsound speculation and inferences.

[Xilizhra]

Bring down the Sky, Balak: N/A

Feros, Ethan Jeong: Charmed into helping the colonists

Feros, Shiala: Left alive

Noveria, Port Hanshan: Gave the data to Gianna, although I liked Lorik better

Noveria, Rachni Queen: Released her; she did nothing wrong anddeserved a chance to rebuild

Virmire, Wrex: Got his armor, made nice

Virmire, Kaisley: Saved Ashley, because she was at the AA tower and I could save the salarian team as well if I went there

Citadel, Saren: Charmed Saren into killing himself.

Citadel, Sovereign and the Citadel: Save the Council, we'll need them later

Misc: UNC Hades' Dogs: Gave Cerberus data to Shadow Broker



Result: Old Council remains, humans join it with Anderson representing.



N7: Lost Operative: Gave the data to Alliance; they've done me no favors, but I may as well start things

N7: Javelin Missiles Launched: Saved the city, seemed like the only option for me

Garrus Loyalty: Let Sidonis live, Harkin gets arrested eventually

Jack Loyalty: Told the other survivor to shoo

Jacob Loyalty: Ronald Taylor gets arrested by the Alliance

Kasumi Loyalty: N/A

Legion Loyalty: Rewrote heretics; the stronger the main geth are, the better they'll be against the Reapers

Miranda Loyalty: She saw her sister; Niket was killed by Enyala.

Mordin Loyalty: Maelon lived, and his research was preserved.

Samara Loyalty: Killing Morinth was much less dangerous, and Samara and I respect each other immensely

Tali Loyalty: Charm and shame the Admiralty Board for using me and being idiots. Hugged the quarian.

Thane Loyalty: Beat up Kelham, told Talim to shoo. Convinced Bailey to let Kolyat work for him.

Zaeed Loyalty: N/A, but if it was available, I'd have saved the workers.

Overlord: N/A



Collector Base: Destroyed, because I don't trust TIM with it.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

As if there was time to see if there were any devices...or that they were even on the ship long enough for those devices to work while protheon/collectors, Harbinger, and the Terminator Reaper was trying to kill the team?[/quote]EDI had time to hack through the base schematics and understand about the Reaper process, and block any possible attempts at self-destruction of the base. If it was in the systems, EDI would be able to know. Shepard and his crew don't have to look themselves when EDI (or some other later AI/VI) can go through what the Collectors knew and check.

Signs of indoctrination, however, to have tell-tales: visions, sounds in the head. Even the Eden Prime farmers heard the effect in their mind, and Sovereign wasn't there long either.


[quote]
Who is to say that EDI's hacking system is 100 percent? Perhaps this time there was over-look. Took her a bit of time to figure out there was something up with the seemgily asleep Collector Ship.   [quote]Because she wasn't plugged in there, but managed to be on the Base?

Time later is perfectly fine to check about the dangers of exploring the base.

[quote]
As far as risks...this is up to the individual is it not?  How far or not far one will go to attempt to find an answer. Put it this way, this is beauty of choice in the end... whether paragon or renagade. They both have " ifts" that can easily be overturned as fast as a plot twist in an ongoing Soap Opera. [/quote]So? It doesn't mean that there aren't reasonable risk tolerances and unreasonable risk tolerances. People who jump and make up catastrophic scenarios without basis deserve to be called on them.

Like, for example, explaining why a Base would be booby trapped when the Collectors and Reapers (a) never intended/wanted anyone to get them, and ( couldn't be bothered to put up basic exterior base defenses to keep attackers from breaching the base in the first place?

(The Oculus were the debris field defense, to keep anyone from returning. The base itself is totally undefended: they had to launch the Cruiser itself to make a defense.)
[quote]
Then we are assuming that the collector vessel is something that would help, it would ironic if the collector vessel was a form of a  garbage scow grade ship compared to others in the Reaper fleet or annexed fleets to help the reaper fleets.  Their pobably laughing it up in the Reaper mess hall talking about that crappy frieght of a Collector ship that the lame humans will poke around in when it was really a shoddy vessel that was about to be Medi-gelled at some point.


[/i][/b][/quote]The Collector Cruiser itself is a garbage scow compared to the Reapers: Collector Tech was deliberately measured to be superior but only so much compared to the rest of the galaxy. Not showing your highest card, so to speak.

But that garbage scow has technology surpassing most of the galactic state of the art. The garbage scow is better than our own best, and makes us look like garbage scows compared to it. A Reaper garbage scow is still better than our own chances.

[Xilizhra]

Does the fact that EDI already downloaded the relevant data even if you destroy the base make any kind of difference?

[MrnDvlDg161]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

As if there was time to see if there were any devices...or that they were even on the ship long enough for those devices to work while protheon/collectors, Harbinger, and the Terminator Reaper was trying to kill the team?[/quote]EDI had time to hack through the base schematics and understand about the Reaper process, and block any possible attempts at self-destruction of the base. If it was in the systems, EDI would be able to know. Shepard and his crew don't have to look themselves when EDI (or some other later AI/VI) can go through what the Collectors knew and check.

Signs of indoctrination, however, to have tell-tales: visions, sounds in the head. Even the Eden Prime farmers heard the effect in their mind, and Sovereign wasn't there long either.


[quote]
Who is to say that EDI's hacking system is 100 percent? Perhaps this time there was over-look. Took her a bit of time to figure out there was something up with the seemgily asleep Collector Ship.   [quote]Because she wasn't plugged in there, but managed to be on the Base?

Time later is perfectly fine to check about the dangers of exploring the base.

[quote]
As far as risks...this is up to the individual is it not?  How far or not far one will go to attempt to find an answer. Put it this way, this is beauty of choice in the end... whether paragon or renagade. They both have " ifts" that can easily be overturned as fast as a plot twist in an ongoing Soap Opera. [/quote]So? It doesn't mean that there aren't reasonable risk tolerances and unreasonable risk tolerances. People who jump and make up catastrophic scenarios without basis deserve to be called on them.

Like, for example, explaining why a Base would be booby trapped when the Collectors and Reapers (a) never intended/wanted anyone to get them, and ( couldn't be bothered to put up basic exterior base defenses to keep attackers from breaching the base in the first place?

(The Oculus were the debris field defense, to keep anyone from returning. The base itself is totally undefended: they had to launch the Cruiser itself to make a defense.)
[quote]
Then we are assuming that the collector vessel is something that would help, it would ironic if the collector vessel was a form of a  garbage scow grade ship compared to others in the Reaper fleet or annexed fleets to help the reaper fleets.  Their pobably laughing it up in the Reaper mess hall talking about that crappy frieght of a Collector ship that the lame humans will poke around in when it was really a shoddy vessel that was about to be Medi-gelled at some point.


[/i][/b][/quote]The Collector Cruiser itself is a garbage scow compared to the Reapers: Collector Tech was deliberately measured to be superior but only so much compared to the rest of the galaxy. Not showing your highest card, so to speak.

But that garbage scow has technology surpassing most of the galactic state of the art. The garbage scow is better than our own best, and makes us look like garbage scows compared to it. A Reaper garbage scow is still better than our own chances.
[/quote]


And I can say the same thing with all of that loot waiting out there with the crashed ships because any upgrade is a good upgrade to up our chances indeed.

Time later to check --- yes. However what if in that time it is too late because of unforseen technology that has been missed and/or  took for granted in being far more powerful than anticipated? Thus bringing a new problem amongst the Reaper problems?

This is a endless back and fourth and yes ME3 will be the final answer.  I'm just putting out that in general, I don't think anyone can be walking around to claim truth's in this universe or that any decision made is the over-all correct one. All of my assumptions, all of your assumptions can go down the drain with one swift correct from a  Bio Ware team member who has decided something way different.

[Dean_the_Young]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

And I can say the same thing with all of that loot waiting out there with the crashed ships because any upgrade is a good upgrade to up our chances indeed.

You can say it. Can you say it with any grounds in the game, or sound logic and not just chance?

What, for example, implies any of those ancient ships rivals the Collector gains? That, being so old, they are better than what we have?

It's possible, as I said, if (and only if) those ancient ships are from past cycles. But the likelyhood is very, very low for a number of reasons, and the resources just to check can be spent on provable gains with Collector technology.

Time later to check --- yes. However what if in that time it is too late because of unforseen technology that has been missed and/or  took for granted in being far more powerful than anticipated? Thus bringing a new problem amongst the Reaper problems?

Uh, what?

You'll have to elaborate. Or have grounding at least. Besides going against the narrative, TIM's counsel (and, if there's anyone who should know it's capable to keep the base, it's TIM), and EDI's implicit agreement with the advice it can be kept, I can't think of what you're thinking of.

Are afraid that the base will blow up in a big boom? Then no one looses (and, if it were really possible, the Collectors would have been smart enough to do it to catch Shepard/deny any salvage). A new unknown superforce will threaten to ravage the galaxy? The Collectors would have used it to preserve themselves and carry out their mission. An indoctrination dead-switch? Removable.

This is a endless back and fourth and yes ME3 will be the final answer.  I'm just putting out that in general, I don't think anyone can be walking around to claim truth's in this universe or that any decision made is the over-all correct one. All of my assumptions, all of your assumptions can go down the drain with one swift correct from a  Bio Ware team member who has decided something way different.

I don't know anyone who's claiming absolute truth.

Absolute sense, yes. Bioware can reverse anything, but they have strong reasons not to cross themselves over something like this. (Narrative consistency, for one thing.) Arguing on the basis of Bioware's aiblity to do such isn't a real argument.

[Fiery Phoenix]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

As a side note...I actually like the idea of not being given the opportunity to make many choices in ME3, and instead having to deal with the consequences of your past actions. It seems like we've drawn our lines and armed our troops, and now all there is left is to resist the coming onslaught. Sure, you can make SOME decisions in the meantime, but the major ones have been made...and you either have the help of the rachni/quarians/geth, or you don't. The council has turned their blind eye, or perished at the hands of Sovereign.

Exactly. I hope we will see more consequences than decisions in ME3. That's what should happen, at least.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Does the fact that EDI already downloaded the relevant data even if you destroy the base make any kind of difference?

Not unless you metagame. Even then, keeping the base nets you a lot more.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Does the fact that EDI already downloaded the relevant data even if you destroy the base make any kind of difference?

Not unless you metagame. Even then, keeping the base nets you a lot more.

'Relevant' in what sense? That you got a picture of another Reaper? (And more, but we don't know what.)

TIM was getting everything EDI was downloading: the fact that he thought keeping the base necessary to deciphering and taking advantage of the technology within, as opposed to downloading all the ideas, is a really really strong indication that 'relevant' is not so relevant.

[Kaiser Shepard]

TIM was after the technology present on the Collector Homeworld from the very beginning, only a fool would deny that.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

TIM was after the technology present on the Collector Homeworld from the very beginning, only a fool would deny that.

This man speaks a great truth.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Collectors have good technology, and Cerberus has always been interested in tech advancement. How is this in the least a bad thing?

Knowing that there was raw Reaper technology beyond there... not so apparent.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 septembre 2010 - 10:17 .

[Dave of Canada]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

TIM was after the technology present on the Collector Homeworld from the very beginning, only a fool would deny that.

Then I'm a fool, he brought Shepard back to stop the Collectors from taking anymore humans. We (Shep & TIM) didn't know what was on the other side of the Omega 4 relay nor did he know about being able to keep it with the Radiation Pulse until he (TIM) looked over the schematics from the base itself.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 septembre 2010 - 10:35 .

[SnakeStrike8]

Anyone who destroys the base forgets one thing: The Normandy is currently the only vessel in the galaxy that can safely jump through the Omega-4 relay. No other ship anywhere has the Reaper IFF you picked off the derelict Reaper (which, by the way, was crushed by a gas giant seconds after you took it). If I do decide to preserve the base, I can damn well reserve the right to let no-one except those I personally trust take a look at the thing.

Of course, Bioware wouldn't think of that angle, but it's still a legitimate plot hole as far as I'm concerned. Having the option to tell the Illusive Man to '****** off; my ship's the only one going through the Relay' in ME 3 would still be great, though.

[Dave of Canada]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Of course, Bioware wouldn't think of that angle, but it's still a legitimate plot hole as far as I'm concerned. Having the option to tell the Illusive Man to '****** off; my ship's the only one going through the Relay' in ME 3 would still be great, though.

If Shepard keeps the base (but dies in the ending), the Illusive Man smiles as an image of the Collector Base appears before him and multiple Cerberus vessels approach it. He was probably able to make more Reaper IFFs through uploading it through EDI.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

It annoys me that I hadn't thought of that, SnakeStrike8 - but it's very true.

Is any video that appears in a save in which Shepard dies considered canon since it can't be imported?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[Nightwriter]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Anyone who destroys the base forgets one thing: The Normandy is currently the only vessel in the galaxy that can safely jump through the Omega-4 relay. No other ship anywhere has the Reaper IFF you picked off the derelict Reaper (which, by the way, was crushed by a gas giant seconds after you took it). If I do decide to preserve the base, I can damn well reserve the right to let no-one except those I personally trust take a look at the thing.
Of course, Bioware wouldn't think of that angle, but it's still a legitimate plot hole as far as I'm concerned. Having the option to tell the Illusive Man to '****** off; my ship's the only one going through the Relay' in ME 3 would still be great, though.

The renegade ending depicts many Cerberus ships moving toward the base, implying TIM has the IFF and has replicated it for many other vessels.