585 réponses à ce sujet

[PWENER]

Lord Jaric wrote...

PWENER wrote...

You mean the ones that have been corroding for millions of years? Riiiiiight (sarcasm).

You do realise that these ships are in the cold depths of space, and not on a planet or moon with an atmospher,right.

I agree with Giggles_Manicall nether side is right or wrong, we can't possible know the outcome of the decision until ME 3

Read the first post in columm 3.

Modifié par PWENER, 12 septembre 2010 - 09:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Right now your in a dark corner with no one to go. Those people that think they're there own side are the most idiotic bunch of naive suckers out there. Staying with Cerberus is the right call. Pissing them off just because you don't like TIM (that's the only reason, admit it) is by far the worst choice you can make. We already have enough enemies without naive Shepards adding to the list. Let alone an organization that provides you with money, resources, food and everything else a ship needs to run smoothly.

No allies? Pfft. The rachni know that I singlehandedly saved their entire species, the geth know that I personally dealt with the heretic problem in its totality, the krogan are being led by my ally Wrex and have the potential for a genophage cure sometime in the future, and the quarians have been encouraged to seek peace with the geth and when it works, they'll likely remember who gave them the idea. As for the Council, I've been reinstated as a Spectre and have cut ties with Cerberus, plus I've left the Terminus systems. I have a very large pool of allies.

[InHarmsWay]

PWENER wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And this is the kind of mentality that will save a galaxy? I don't think so.

I owe Cerberus squat. They gave me all of that so I would stop the Collectors. I did. Mission accomplished, deal fulfilled on both sides. TIM tried to make a new deal... I didn't think it was acceptable, so I declined.

Right now your in a dark corner with no one to go. Those people that think they're there own side are the most idiotic bunch of naive suckers out there. Staying with Cerberus is the right call. Pissing them off just because you don't like TIM (that's the only reason, admit it) is by far the worst choice you can make. We already have enough enemies without naive Shepards adding to the list. Let alone an organization that provides you with money, resources, food and everything else a ship needs to run smoothly.

These so called "naive" people who want to go on their own are the ones who will have the Krogan, Geth, Rachni and Quarian forces in their ranks and the Shadow Broker's resources. That makes them more powerful than Cerberus and the Council races. It's not naive to want to create your own side (when you have the resources to do so) when both sides are incompetent morons.

[Dave of Canada]

But what I do know is that Collector technology is highly valuable across the galaxy that recieving ONE piece of it is considered equal to winning the lottery. You've got it all in your hands (and more, considering the Collectors wouldn't trade it's most dangerous tech).

From what we know, we'd be getting access to:
Seeker Swarms.
The ability to track certain species.
The pods.
Particle technology.
The ability to create species-specific plagues.

... and that's all that we know of that was used against Shepard. Stuff that the Reapers have created for themselves, stuff that was never supposed to be in Organic hands. The Reapers would create a path for how the organics would evolve, harvest them before their tech gets too out of hand. A small cache was enough technology to give humans access to FTL space flight and such, the Collector Base can probably throw human tech +500 years ahead. The Reapers haven't faced an enemy with this.

Then you've got the whole thing about the base being a Reaper factory, giving us a clear idea of what kind of offenses / defenses we can expect

While this is just speculation, it's a cold hard fact that the Reapers are coming and the galaxy is ill prepared. The Reaper base is a huge advantage that blowing up because you don't trust Cerberus or TIM is foolish, you're letting (to quote TIM) "idealism blind you". While you stand for your morals, you pretty much burned the biggest advantage you've ever had against the Reapers because you don't trust TIM.

My Paragons / Renegades don't trust TIM either, yet they'd rather take that risk than lose the galaxy.

[izmirtheastarach]

The issue to me is not whether keeping the base is okay. The issue is that TiM cannot be trusting with the base. He has proven time and again that Cerberus under his leadership takes things to far, with ruinous consequences. He just doesn't know when to pull back.



I completely expect keeping the base to blow up in his face. As people have said, what is to stop the Reapers from taking over whoever is assigned to study it? This risks seem very obvious to me. There is an argument for carefully studying it, using various precautions, but TiM won't take enough.

[PWENER]

InHarmsWay wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And this is the kind of mentality that will save a galaxy? I don't think so.

I owe Cerberus squat. They gave me all of that so I would stop the Collectors. I did. Mission accomplished, deal fulfilled on both sides. TIM tried to make a new deal... I didn't think it was acceptable, so I declined.

Right now your in a dark corner with no one to go. Those people that think they're there own side are the most idiotic bunch of naive suckers out there. Staying with Cerberus is the right call. Pissing them off just because you don't like TIM (that's the only reason, admit it) is by far the worst choice you can make. We already have enough enemies without naive Shepards adding to the list. Let alone an organization that provides you with money, resources, food and everything else a ship needs to run smoothly.

These so called "naive" people who want to go on their own are the ones who will have the Krogan, Geth, Rachni and Quarian forces in their ranks and the Shadow Broker's resources. That makes them more powerful than Cerberus and the Council races. It's not naive to want to create your own side (when you have the resources to do so) when both sides are incompetent morons.

Let's see my Shepard's track record shall we...

ME1: Killed council, saved Rachni, saved Wrex.

ME2: Saved Collector base, rewrited Geth, obtained genophage cure, Tali unexiled.

Don't tell me I can have my cake but can't eat it. Im a paragade, not a renegade moron that kills evryone and chooses thebad choice because it's the evil thing to do for points.

[Dave of Canada]

iakus wrote...

If TIM could be trusted to just use the base to find weaknesses in the Reapers, and their technology that would be one thing.  But you know that before long, there'd be black and gold husks and Cerbereapers flying around .  The only question would be before or after the "real" Reapers arrived.

After. TIM isn't a moron and essentially promises that he's going to help you out to stop the Reapers.

[Xilizhra]

Let's see my Shepard's track record shall we...



ME1: Killed council, saved Rachni, saved Wrex.



ME2: Saved Collector base, rewrited Geth, obtained genophage cure, Tali unexiled.



Don't tell me I can have my cake but can't eat it. Im a paragade, not a renegade moron that kills evryone and chooses thebad choice because it's the evil thing to do for points.

I never said you were; that's Shan's department. But I don't think you need to worry about the ally base of full Paragon's either.

[PWENER]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The issue to me is not whether keeping the base is okay. The issue is that TiM cannot be trusting with the base. He has proven time and again that Cerberus under his leadership takes things to far, with ruinous consequences. He just doesn't know when to pull back.

I completely expect keeping the base to blow up in his face. As people have said, what is to stop the Reapers from taking over whoever is assigned to study it? This risks seem very obvious to me. There is an argument for carefully studying it, using various precautions, but TiM won't take enough.

BW wouldn't have made the choice to keep it just to have "blow up in your face" like evryone keeps saying. Wethever you trust TIM or not is not the issue, it's that the freaking god machines called Reapers are coming and the only way you will prevail is if your ready to make the hard choices BW always mentions in they're trailers.

That's why, because the *****ng Reapers are almost at your doorstep and you can't get over the stupid "I don't trust TIM" issue.

[The Big Nothing]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Possible Outcomes


2:Inferior But still good renegade outcome with a dark undertone

I happened to like the "renegade/sith"  ending with bastilla  in KOTOR alot more than the "paragon/jedi" ending.

I don't see why they couldn't do the same in ME especially with SB liara, muwahahah.

Really? I felt the exact opposite way.

To me, the Sith ending was depressing and soulless, like starting the galactic Third Reich, with hundreds of mindless Sith underlings gathered at your feet, chanting, "Hail, Revan. Hail, Revan. Hail, Revan."
I found the Jedi ending much more satisfying, with you and your rag-tag group of followers being labeled "Saviors of the Republic," and having those fighters fly over-head just as the credits roll. It reminded me of the ending of "A New Hope." 

 

[Xilizhra]

BW wouldn't have made the choice to keep it just to have "blow up in your face" like evryone keeps saying.

Metagame logic. I can use the same logic to say that it's clear that we'll be able to beat the Reapers just fine without the base, because BW wouldn't make it otherwise.

[Barquiel]

Dave of Canada wrote...

But what I do know is that Collector technology is highly valuable across the galaxy that recieving ONE piece of it is considered equal to winning the lottery. You've got it all in your hands (and more, considering the Collectors wouldn't trade it's most dangerous tech).

Paragon Shep doesn't return empty-handed. EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers (the datapad Joker gives you in the end).

[PWENER]

Dave of Canada wrote...

iakus wrote...

If TIM could be trusted to just use the base to find weaknesses in the Reapers, and their technology that would be one thing.  But you know that before long, there'd be black and gold husks and Cerbereapers flying around .  The only question would be before or after the "real" Reapers arrived.

After. TIM isn't a moron and essentially promises that he's going to help you out to stop the Reapers.

Whatever happens after the Reaper war happens. But at least mass extinction won't be one of those things.

[PWENER]

Xilizhra wrote...

BW wouldn't have made the choice to keep it just to have "blow up in your face" like evryone keeps saying.

Metagame logic. I can use the same logic to say that it's clear that we'll be able to beat the Reapers just fine without the base, because BW wouldn't make it otherwise.

I know, but Cerberus isn't dumb and neither is TIM. Keeping the base is the sure way of having an advantage over the Reapers. Dstroying gets you nothing other than a new enemy (and God knows we don't need another one of those).

[PWENER]

Barquiel wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

But what I do know is that Collector technology is highly valuable across the galaxy that recieving ONE piece of it is considered equal to winning the lottery. You've got it all in your hands (and more, considering the Collectors wouldn't trade it's most dangerous tech).

Paragon Shep doesn't return empty-handed. EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers (the datapad Joker gives you in the end).

That isn't enough. Knowing where to shoot is one thing, having the means to shoot is another. If we can't match the Reaper's tech, we're toast. The Alliance has had a hard time matching Geth technology alone, so imagine the Reapers.

Modifié par PWENER, 12 septembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[Xilizhra]

I know, but Cerberus isn't dumb and neither is TIM. Keeping the base is the sure way of having an advantage over the Reapers. Dstroying gets you nothing other than a new enemy (and God knows we don't need another one of those).

Like I said, it's a polarizing and potentially destabilizing influence. Galactic unity is more important, I think, than a few technological advantages.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Shandepared wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


Paragon Shep doesn't return empty-handed. EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers (the datapad Joker gives you in the end).

Then why did TIM want to keep the base?

A souvinir for his Asari lover.

[The Big Nothing]

Shandepared wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


Paragon Shep doesn't return empty-handed. EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers (the datapad Joker gives you in the end).

Then why did TIM want to keep the base?

To study Reaper conception, likely. It is the difference between having the blueprints to a gun, and actually holding and examining a gun.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 12 septembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[Xilizhra]

Then why did TIM want to keep the base?

It's a quick surge of immediate power for himself and Cerberus.

[Barquiel]

Shandepared wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


Paragon Shep doesn't return empty-handed. EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers (the datapad Joker gives you in the end).

Then why did TIM want to keep the base?

Use your imagination.

The base is a tool used for one thing...

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

Paragon Shep doesn't return empty-handed. EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers (the datapad Joker gives you in the end).

True but you don't know about that until the ending itself. AFTER the base is saved / destroyed.

[PWENER]

Xilizhra wrote...

I know, but Cerberus isn't dumb and neither is TIM. Keeping the base is the sure way of having an advantage over the Reapers. Dstroying gets you nothing other than a new enemy (and God knows we don't need another one of those).

Like I said, it's a polarizing and potentially destabilizing influence. Galactic unity is more important, I think, than a few technological advantages.

When you balance it, "mass extinction" weights more than your "galactic unity". And why the hell would I want unity when every other race dislikes Humanity? Without the base (human dominance) we're still looked down upon, even after saving the Citadel.

Do you think the Turian goverment would destroy the base? NO. The Asari? meabye. The Salarians? NO.

[Iakus]

[quote]smudboy wrote...
That's not alien tech.
[/quote]

Okay you got me with the rachni.  I'd agrue that the creepers are alien tech, just biotech.  Husks are definitely tech (Dragon's Teeth), geth...are a grey area...but I'll put them in the tech category since they are synthetics.

[quote]
[quote]
Exactly.  We don't know.  How can we find traps if we don't know what to look for?  Particularly traps that mess with your head?  Shepard was not present for "Releasing control" so does not know Harbringer did that.  Even so, did Harbringer merely cast off a now-useless tool or if did he just lose his only link to the base?
[/quote]
What double talk is this?  So we keep it, but "how will we find traps?"  What?

Maybe keeping the base: you'll find out.

BUT OH NOES BASE IS BADBADBAD.[/quote]

Please specify doubletalk.  I'm just pointing out that A) Harbringer can remote control Collectors presumably using Reaper tech There's little reason to think he couldn't play around with other tech at the base, including laying traps for people trying to study it.  TIM may very well find his Cerberus teams having fatal "accidents" or ending up getting indoctrinated or huskified. 

It is not (to me) an unreasonable assumption that Harbringer could turn the Collector Base into his very own version of Home Alone to keep himself occupied while on cruise control to the Milky Way.

[quote]
[quote]
If I could hand access to the base over to someone more trustworthy than TIM, say Liara or Anderson,  I admit this arguement would have a lot less strength.  But with TIM, there's a very real chance that Shepard may end up compounding his problems if he saves the base.
[/quote]
1. Cerberus brought Shepard back from the dead to fight the Collectors/Reapers. and some unknown reasons beyond the plot.
2. Cerberus made Shepard a brand new top of the line ship.
3. Cerberus is the only group doing anything about the threat.
So you want to leave the only group that believes you 100%, puts their complete trust in you, gave you a second chance at life, a new ship, a new crew, a few new upgrades, all because you don't like the way TIM talks ot you, or somesuch.

Ah huh.
[/quote]

1)  I'll put TIM on my Christmas card list
2) A ship I should point out wasn't entirely top of the line.  Had to research and mine some upgrades myself.  Man even as a Spectre I didn't have to do that
3 Frustrating, but true

You did skip over the whole "terrorist organization that's not above kidnapping, bribery, murder, and unethical medical experiments for fun & profit" 

Like I said, it's a frustrating but true fact that Cerberus is the only organization that hasn't sufferd brain damage in the last two years concerning the Reaper threat.  However, their reputation belies any "kinder, gentler" talk TIM or Miranda may try to convey.  Best case:  TIM is incompetant.  Worst case, an absolute sociopath.  The simple fact is, a paragon Shepard is unlikely to believe the galaxy would be any better off if the Reapers won, or Cerberus.  Because it would not be the Alliance that won, or the Council, or any other government or organization.  It would be Cerberus.

[quote]
[quote]
Wouldn't it be funny if the Reapers have been periodically defeated, only to be supplanted by the race that defeated them?[/quote]
Hilarious.
[/quote]

Thank you

[quote]
[quote]
You and I both know the real reason for the lack of defenses at the Collector base is because the "story" demanded it  but that's another topic.
[/quote]
Oh?[/quote]

Sure, any serious defenses and the Normandy would have been just another wreck in the pile.

[quote]
[quote]
I admit this is the weakest of my arguements.  Knowing your enemy is an important aspect of warfare.  That and closing the tech edge.  But things get a little fuzzy when the technology can easily turn on you.  As Tali's father learned just before he died.  The thannix cannon was a good find.  Cerberus got lucky with EDI.  Fortunately none of that ended up coming alive and killing/indoctrinating/huskifying the scientists in question.
[/quote]
What technology will turn on you?  You don't even know, so stop this ridiculous threat assessment of wild speculation.[/quote]

For one thing, the Reaper IFF mission shows even "dead" Reaper tech can still indoctrinate/huskify people.  Also:

UNC: Missing Survey Team: Exo Geni team finds Reaper tech and wackiness ensues.
UNC: Colony of the Dead is another example of Husks Gone Wild thanks to Cerberus research.

You gotta treat Reaper technology like it's Cthulhu:  just cause it's dead doesn't mean it can't still kill you horribly.

[quote]
[quote]
Studying Reaper tech isn't a bad thing.  But it's proven over and over to be extremely dangerous.  Cerberus has a tendency to rush too far too fast and have their experiments blow up in the process (reason #1)  Studying Reaper tech, you have to always keep in mind "Is this a trap"?  TIM would more likely think"How many agents can I afford to lose on this?"
[/quote]
I am shaking in my space boots.[/quote]

Cerberus chose the wrong colors for their uniforms.  Instead of black, white, and gold, they should just have solid red shirts

[quote]
I have a personal theory that defeating the Reapers will ultimately require the destruction of the Citadel and perhaps the entire Mass Relay network.
[/quote]
Yes.
[/quote]

Yes you agree, yes it's a valid hypothosis, or a Sten-yes?
[quote]
[quote]
Not really sure what that means, but the keeping the Anvil, knowing how it is used, is definitely one of the more "morally grey" choices you can make in that game.
[/quote]
Wrong game.[/quote]
Fair enough

[quote]
[quote]
You know some would want this ending.[/quote]
These people need to be shot.

[/quote]
Agreed.

[jbblue05]

InHarmsWay wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And this is the kind of mentality that will save a galaxy? I don't think so.

I owe Cerberus squat. They gave me all of that so I would stop the Collectors. I did. Mission accomplished, deal fulfilled on both sides. TIM tried to make a new deal... I didn't think it was acceptable, so I declined.

Right now your in a dark corner with no one to go. Those people that think they're there own side are the most idiotic bunch of naive suckers out there. Staying with Cerberus is the right call. Pissing them off just because you don't like TIM (that's the only reason, admit it) is by far the worst choice you can make. We already have enough enemies without naive Shepards adding to the list. Let alone an organization that provides you with money, resources, food and everything else a ship needs to run smoothly.

These so called "naive" people who want to go on their own are the ones who will have the Krogan, Geth, Rachni and Quarian forces in their ranks and the Shadow Broker's resources. That makes them more powerful than Cerberus and the Council races. It's not naive to want to create your own side (when you have the resources to do so) when both sides are incompetent morons.

You're assuming Wrex will unite the Krogan in time
You assume Mordin will create the Genophage cure in time and allows the Krogan to have huge numbers before the Reapers show up
The Rachni have to start their race over from scratch your assuming in 2 years they can boast an impressive fleet to fight the Reapers
The Quarian fleet is WEAK they intimidate by the number of ships they have  an Alliance fleet with thanix cannons woulld rip right through them imagine what Sovereign would do to the Flotilla
Shadow Broker's power  is starting wars or preventing them not fighting a war.

Those allies you have aren't as strong as you think.

Cerberus and the Council Races are going to be needed to help fight the Reapers.

If you give the base to Cerberus other races aren't going to refuse to fight the Reapers.  Regardless of your choice all the races have one objective Kill the Reapers or be killed.  They are not going to say I rather die then work with Cerberus to stop the Reapers