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[PWENER]

The Big Nothing wrote...

iakus wrote...

PWENER wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

Nietzsche once said, "He who fights monster must take care, lest he thereby become one."

I believe it means that if we use the same methods as our enemies, then we haven't opposed them, we've become them.

We become gigantic machine gods of destruction who feed off dark energy (my theory on the topic) and devour galactic civilizations every 50,000 to 100,000 years? I don't think so. The true meaning of that phrase is that you essentially change and pursue your enemies with the same mentality that they have. You don't become the enemy or join them.

Amusingly, this entire discussion seems to be about Samuel Johnson's quote:

"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful.”

Destroying the base is integrity without knowledge.  Keeping the base is knowledge without integrity.

We have knowledge, though. We know that Reaper technology is what made us, and every civilization before us vulnerable to extinction in the first place. To advance along the path that they have established is what the Reapers want. They understand their own technology; they know the weaknesses and strengths of their technology. Innovation is the real super-weapon here.
 

The only thing that they left intentionally for us to take was the Citadel, Mass Relays and Eezo. They never wanted the Reaper tech inside the base to fall into organic hands (hence the Oculus guarding the tartarus debris field).

[smudboy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sidious was always like that, he was just faking all along (Palpatine was his cover, an alter ego to say the least).

How much do we really know about TIM's true self? His control certainly seems to be cracking hear the end, what with "Cerberus is humanity!" and all.

Cerberus is humanity.  Or at least that's what he thinks.  Wait a second: who the hell cares?

Wait, TIM's "true self"?  Do you need a moment there, Xil?  Maybe a counsellor?  Maybe you should take some philosophy classes?  Stare in the mirror for hours?  What "is" "TIM"?  Hmm.

Yeah blow up the base.  You won't have time to save the universe or something since you don't "know" the "true" "self" of some guy (and his very clear motives.)

(Psst: stop the Reapers, humanity<-whatever that means.)

[Dave of Canada]

PWENER wrote...

Yet the base will only be used for Human dominace and nothing more. It's up to other factors on wethever we'll win the war or end up like all races before us.

I'm not blind that I don't see Cerberus using it against aliens, I just don't see it happening until the Reaper thread is dealt with and done. TIM knows as much as anybody else that the Reapers will wipe out everybody and if he starts a campaign against aliens that he's only crippling everybody else until the Reapers get here and wipe them out. The human dominance aspect of the base will most likely only kick in after the Reapers are gone, I've even told TIM that I'd hunt him down if he got too greedy.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Blasto the jelly wrote...
I Cant Wait to see Shepards Face When The Reapers Win

You mean the unscarred face of a Paragon?

[PWENER]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

This is true, and this is also why galactic life has been annihilated every 50,000 years. Instead of advancing along our own paths of technological evolution, we rely on a mysterious technology that is essentially a trap.

But without said technology, humanity would still be trapped on Earth and would be wiped out before even knowing what the Asari / Turians and such are. The Reaper tech is a double-edged sword, it advances you the way they want you to be before being harvested but makes you more capable and stronger in the process, the entire galaxy is built upon Reaper tech. The Collector Base is something that the Reapers never wanted organics to have, you're getting technology far too advanced than they ever expected.

You lose out on human-made tech, yes. Yet you've advanced a lot further tech-wise than any other species that has ever confronted the Reapers. Personally? I'd rather grab the ladder and be carried up rather than fall because I'm too stubborn to grab it.

The only reason this span of 50,000 years is different from previous ones is because the protheans warned us as they were made extinct and sabotaged the remote Citadel Relay activation. 

I do believe the cycle has always been 50,000 years and the Reapers don't / didn't know about Prothean meddeling.

This is true. Both sides do have merit. It is a debate bigger than Mass Effect, haha.

I'm excited to see how it all pans out in the Mass Effect 3. I think one side is going to be very sorry about the choices they made.

I hope so, that would lead to drama and drama leads to twists and twists lead to fun revelations and unexpected outcomes. Happy endings are overated.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Yet the base will only be used for Human dominace and nothing more. It's up to other factors on wethever we'll win the war or end up like all races before us.

I'm not blind that I don't see Cerberus using it against aliens, I just don't see it happening until the Reaper thread is dealt with and done. TIM knows as much as anybody else that the Reapers will wipe out everybody and if he starts a campaign against aliens that he's only crippling everybody else until the Reapers get here and wipe them out. The human dominance aspect of the base will most likely only kick in after the Reapers are gone, I've even told TIM that I'd hunt him down if he got too greedy.

Been on the forum a little too much lately, haven't you?

[PWENER]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Blasto the jelly wrote...
I Cant Wait to see Shepards Face When The Reapers Win

You mean the unscarred face of a Paragon?

A paragon that blew up the base.

[Dave of Canada]

The Big Nothing wrote...

I'm excited to see how it all pans out in the Mass Effect 3. I think one side is going to be very sorry about the choices they made.

For once, I'd like to see the Renegade choice get rewarded for a choice they've made. Far too many times now have Renegades gotten nothing (or just plain punished) for their choices but the Paragons can literally put a gun in somebody's face and they become loyal. The Paragon takes far too many unhealthy risks and walks away with a smile on his face with a happy-ever-after ending.

[Dave of Canada]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Been on the forum a little too much lately, haven't you?

Nope! The Reapers start trolling humanity on the forums and when we're too busy to notice they've wiped out half the galaxy, we've only been trolled!

[The Big Nothing]

Dave of Canada wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Yet the base will only be used for Human dominace and nothing more. It's up to other factors on wethever we'll win the war or end up like all races before us.

I'm not blind that I don't see Cerberus using it against aliens, I just don't see it happening until the Reaper thread is dealt with and done. TIM knows as much as anybody else that the Reapers will wipe out everybody and if he starts a campaign against aliens that he's only crippling everybody else until the Reapers get here and wipe them out. The human dominance aspect of the base will most likely only kick in after the Reapers are gone, I've even told TIM that I'd hunt him down if he got too greedy.

It's such an interesting decision, because both choices can be vouched for so reasonably. It's not like saving/killing the Council/Rachni Queen, where the choice is irrelevant or obvious.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Been on the forum a little too much lately, haven't you?

Nope! The Reapers start trolling humanity on the forums and when we're too busy to notice they've wiped out half the galaxy, we've only been trolled!

[PWENER]

Dave of Canada wrote...

PWENER wrote...

Yet the base will only be used for Human dominace and nothing more. It's up to other factors on wethever we'll win the war or end up like all races before us.

I'm not blind that I don't see Cerberus using it against aliens, I just don't see it happening until the Reaper thread is dealt with and done. TIM knows as much as anybody else that the Reapers will wipe out everybody and if he starts a campaign against aliens that he's only crippling everybody else until the Reapers get here and wipe them out. The human dominance aspect of the base will most likely only kick in after the Reapers are gone, I've even told TIM that I'd hunt him down if he got too greedy.

I know that, Im just stating that this is what will happen.

Just because we have the forbidden knowledge (Collector base) doesn't mean we have the means to destroy the devil who gave it to us (Reapers).

Modifié par PWENER, 12 septembre 2010 - 10:33 .

[Xilizhra]

Yeah blow up the base. You won't have time to save the universe or something since you don't "know" the "true" "self" of some guy (and his very clear motives.)

Galactic unity>a single base (EDI got the important data) for fighting the Reapers.

For once, I'd like to see the Renegade choice get rewarded for a choice they've made. Far too many times now have Renegades gotten nothing (or just plain punished) for their choices but the Paragons can literally put a gun in somebody's face and they become loyal. The Paragon takes far too many unhealthy risks and walks away with a smile on his face with a happy-ever-after ending.

Have Renegade options had undue drawbacks? Don't both get you through the game just fine?

[The Big Nothing]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

I'm excited to see how it all pans out in the Mass Effect 3. I think one side is going to be very sorry about the choices they made.

For once, I'd like to see the Renegade choice get rewarded for a choice they've made. Far too many times now have Renegades gotten nothing (or just plain punished) for their choices but the Paragons can literally put a gun in somebody's face and they become loyal. The Paragon takes far too many unhealthy risks and walks away with a smile on his face with a happy-ever-after ending.

I completely agree; cause and effect can be so linear in the game. That isn't to say that I would like to be blind-sided by a choice, for example, not paragon-interrupt hugging Tali leading to her suicide.
But yeah, a lot of times, "bad" choices have to be made for the greater-good. There should be some situations where it pays to be renegade, literally or otherwise.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 12 septembre 2010 - 10:38 .

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Galactic unity>a single base (EDI got the important data) for fighting the Reapers.

Without metagaming, you don't know about the data. You're blowing it up and expect nothing in return.

Have Renegade options had undue drawbacks? Don't both get you through the game just fine?

You get through the game just fine, you just get punished.

[PWENER]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah blow up the base. You won't have time to save the universe or something since you don't "know" the "true" "self" of some guy (and his very clear motives.)

Galactic unity>a single base (EDI got the important data) for fighting the Reapers.

For once, I'd like to see the Renegade choice get rewarded for a choice they've made. Far too many times now have Renegades gotten nothing (or just plain punished) for their choices but the Paragons can literally put a gun in somebody's face and they become loyal. The Paragon takes far too many unhealthy risks and walks away with a smile on his face with a happy-ever-after ending.

Have Renegade options had undue drawbacks? Don't both get you through the game just fine?

1. EDI has the the knowledge on how to destroy them, but we still need the means to do so. We can see the weak spot, but with what will we shoot at with?

2. Paragon or Renegade does get you through the games.... so far. BW said that ME3 will spill out all the outcomes of your decisions. So far, nothing has happened to make us regret our choices. All of that will come in ME3.

[upsettingshorts]

Where are the Renegades punished, specifically? Provided they pass the Intimidate checks.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 10:39 .

[upsettingshorts]

On that note, the more I immerse myself in the Mass Effect universe the more appealing the Renegade/Pro-Human options seem to me.



Too much complacency and incompetence among aliens. It might actually be good for the galaxy if humanity took charge. Emphasis on might.

[Xilizhra]

Without metagaming, you don't know about the data. You're blowing it up and expect nothing in return.

I believe Shepard asks EDI to grab it. She knows about it.

[The Big Nothing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Where are the Renegades punished, specifically? Provided they pass the Intimidate checks.

It's just that renegade options have such negative connotations, as if it is the stupid choice.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

On that note, the more I immerse myself in the Mass Effect universe the more appealing the Renegade/Pro-Human options seem to me.

Too much complacency and incompetence among aliens. It might actually be good for the galaxy if humanity took charge. Emphasis on might.

Humanity or Cerberus?

[The Big Nothing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

On that note, the more I immerse myself in the Mass Effect universe the more appealing the Renegade/Pro-Human options seem to me.

Too much complacency and incompetence among aliens. It might actually be good for the galaxy if humanity took charge. Emphasis on might.

Fascism, ftw.

[Xilizhra]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Where are the Renegades punished, specifically? Provided they pass the Intimidate checks.

It's just that renegade options have such negative connotations, as if it is the stupid choice.

Renegade actions aren't taken to be popular.

[upsettingshorts]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Humanity or Cerberus?

Humanity through Cerberus (The Illusive Man) and the Alliance (Udina).  The right tools for the right job.  No need to alienate either side of Shepard is able to - more or less - straddle the line between them.  And he does.

The Big Nothing wrote...
Fascism, ftw.

Loaded, inappropriate terms ftw.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 10:47 .

[PWENER]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

On that note, the more I immerse myself in the Mass Effect universe the more appealing the Renegade/Pro-Human options seem to me.

Too much complacency and incompetence among aliens. It might actually be good for the galaxy if humanity took charge. Emphasis on might.

Man, that is exactly what happened to me. In my first ME2 playthrough I destroyed the base. Second playthrough and beyond...