585 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Loaded, inappropriate terms ftw.

Terrorism, then. Loaded but appropriate.

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Where are the Renegades punished, specifically? Provided they pass the Intimidate checks.

A few examples off the top of my head.

The Rachni Queen is trying to let you free her, you're uncertain about her fate.
[Paragon] Congratulations, she didn't try to play you like a fool! Aren't you a champ?
[Renegade] .... Wait, you're expecting something? Ha! You aren't getting ****!

The Council is onboard that ship!
[Paragon] I love my adoring public! Everybody loves me! *blows kisses in the air*
[Neutral] Wait... you're still calling me a monster? I did what I had to! We even recreated an Alien council!
[Renegade] You're a monster. Everybody hates you. Aliens going to put the hurt on dem humanz!

Collector Base.
[Paragon] My crew loves me, they really love me! 8D
[Renegade] Legion! You told me I should've kept the base! Why the hell are you telling me I shouldn't have kept it now? Grunt too?! What the hell everybody?!

You freed Shiala from the Thorian.
[Paragon] Oh look, she's stayed true to her word! Everybody cheer! 8D
[Renegade] Hey, look. A nameless incompetent chick instead.


Samara tells her opinion about you.
[Paragon] Thanks Samara, I love you too!
[Renegade] What the hell? You're going to kill me when you're not bount to your oath?!

Edit: Rereading that... it's not that Renegades get punished, it's just Paragons get rewarded. A lot.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 septembre 2010 - 10:52 .

[Barquiel]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Humanity or Cerberus?

Humanity through Cerberus (The Illusive Man) and the Alliance (Udina).  The right tools for the right job.  No need to alienate either side of Shepard is able to - more or less - straddle the line between them.  And he does.

Well, I'm not saving the galaxy so TIM and Udina can turn it into a human tyranny.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Where are the Renegades punished, specifically? Provided they pass the Intimidate checks.

A few examples off the top of my head.

The Rachni Queen is trying to let you free her, you're uncertain about her fate.
[Paragon] Congratulations, she didn't try to play you like a fool! Aren't you a champ?
[Renegade] .... Wait, you're expecting something? Ha! You aren't getting ****!

The Council is onboard that ship!
[Paragon] I love my adoring public! Everybody loves me! *blows kisses in the air*
[Neutral] Wait... you're still calling me a monster? I did what I had to! We even recreated an Alien council!
[Renegade] You're a monster. Everybody hates you. Aliens going to put the hurt on dem humanz!

Collector Base.
[Paragon] My crew loves me, they really love me! 8D
[Renegade] Legion! You told me I should've kept the base! Why the hell are you telling me I shouldn't have kept it now? Grunt too?! What the hell everybody?!

You freed Shiala from the Thorian.
[Paragon] Oh look, she's stayed true to her word! Everybody cheer! 8D
[Renegade] Hey, look. A nameless incompetent chick instead.


Samara tells her opinion about you.
[Paragon] Thanks Samara, I love you too!
[Renegade] What the hell? You're going to kill me when you're not bount to your oath?!

Edit: Rereading that... it's not that Renegades get punished, it's just Paragons get rewarded. A lot.

This is wholly unsurprising. Renegades don't care about anything but getting the job done. Therefore, they get nothing but the job done.

[PWENER]

PWENER wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

On that note, the more I immerse myself in the Mass Effect universe the more appealing the Renegade/Pro-Human options seem to me.

Too much complacency and incompetence among aliens. It might actually be good for the galaxy if humanity took charge. Emphasis on might.

Man, that is exactly what happened to me. In my first ME2 playthrough I destroyed the base. Second playthrough and beyond...

Thought I'd bump it since it ended up as the last post.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is wholly unsurprising. Renegades don't care about anything but getting the job done. Therefore, they get nothing but the job done.

But a Paragon takes a bajillion risks that never blows back in his face. It would probably be a Paragon option to keep TIM alive and then for some reason TIM becomes this giant pro-Alien group. A Renegade gets the same thing accomplished because it's necessary but NOPE, they are monsters! Bad Renegades! *smack*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 septembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...

Loaded, inappropriate terms ftw.

Terrorism, then. Loaded but appropriate.

Actually, that's loaded and downright false.  Cerberus' actions may have invoked terror but it wasn't terrorism.  Terrorism is a very specific form of assymetric warfare in which fear is the means through which terrorists mean to bring about political change.

Cerberus doesn't give a damn about political reform, and terror is a side-effect.  They didn't kill all those soldiers on Akuze to scare people into changing their government or lifestyle, they did it to study Thresher Maws and didn't give a damn about the ethical implications. Are they an immoral, criminal, and untrustworthy shadow organization?  Sure are.  But labeling them terrorists is Alliance propaganda.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 10:59 .

[The Big Nothing]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Where are the Renegades punished, specifically? Provided they pass the Intimidate checks.

A few examples off the top of my head.

The Rachni Queen is trying to let you free her, you're uncertain about her fate.
[Paragon] Congratulations, she didn't try to play you like a fool! Aren't you a champ?
[Renegade] .... Wait, you're expecting something? Ha! You aren't getting ****!

The Council is onboard that ship!
[Paragon] I love my adoring public! Everybody loves me! *blows kisses in the air*
[Neutral] Wait... you're still calling me a monster? I did what I had to! We even recreated an Alien council!
[Renegade] You're a monster. Everybody hates you. Aliens going to put the hurt on dem humanz!

Collector Base.
[Paragon] My crew loves me, they really love me! 8D
[Renegade] Legion! You told me I should've kept the base! Why the hell are you telling me I shouldn't have kept it now? Grunt too?! What the hell everybody?!

You freed Shiala from the Thorian.
[Paragon] Oh look, she's stayed true to her word! Everybody cheer! 8D
[Renegade] Hey, look. A nameless incompetent chick instead.


Samara tells her opinion about you.
[Paragon] Thanks Samara, I love you too!
[Renegade] What the hell? You're going to kill me when you're not bount to your oath?!

Edit: Rereading that... it's not that Renegades get punished, it's just Paragons get rewarded. A lot.

This is wholly unsurprising. Renegades don't care about anything but getting the job done. Therefore, they get nothing but the job done.

Well put.

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Edit: Rereading that... it's not that Renegades get punished, it's just Paragons get rewarded. A lot.

Yeah true and your point is well taken, though out of all those the one that actually angers me is the Neutral Destiny Ascenion fate decision.  

I also agree that Renegades shouldn't so much get more rewards, but that Paragons should at least have the occasional "second chance" come back to bite them square in the rear end.  

Otherwise it's a false morality system.  You're not truly proving anything by being good if you always know the outcome will be pleasant/rewarding.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[The Big Nothing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Loaded, inappropriate terms ftw.

Terrorism, then. Loaded but appropriate.

Actually, that's loaded and downright false.  Cerberus' actions may have invoked terror but it wasn't terrorism.  Terrorism is a very specific form of assymetric warfare in which fear is the means through which terrorists mean to bring about political change.

Cerberus doesn't give a damn about political reform, and terror is a side-effect.  They didn't kill all those soldiers on Akuze to scare people into changing their government or lifestyle, they did it to study Thresher Maws and didn't give a damn about the ethical implications. Are they an immoral, criminal, and untrustworthy shadow organization?  Sure are.  But labeling them terrorists is Alliance propaganda.

Like I said: Galactic Fascism! A system of government marked by centralization of authority under humanity, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:09 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Edit: Rereading that... it's not that Renegades get punished, it's just Paragons get rewarded. A lot.

Yeah true and your point is well taken, though out of all those the one that actually angers me is the Neutral Destiny Ascenion fate decision.  

How fitting your own signature is here: "In defeat, malice."

[Xilizhra]

But a Paragon takes a bajillion risks that never blows back in his face. It would probably be a Paragon option to keep TIM alive and then for some reason TIM becomes this giant pro-Alien group. A Renegade gets the same thing accomplished because it's necessary but NOPE, they are monsters! Bad Renegades! *smack*

It depends on what kind of game experience you want. If you want an idealistic, everything-works-out-well scenario, you play a Paragon. If you want a dark, gritty, the-ends-justify-the-means scenario, you play a Renegade.

Are they an immoral, criminal, and untrustworthy shadow organization? Sure are. But labeling them terrorists is Alliance propaganda.

Quite frankly, I don't see how it helps if their actions are terroristic, even if their motives are different.

[Iakus]

This is fun.  I haven't had a good wall-o-text debate in a while

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...

Okay you got me with the rachni.  I'd agrue that the creepers are alien tech, just biotech.  Husks are definitely tech (Dragon's Teeth), geth...are a grey area...but I'll put them in the tech category since they are synthetics.
[/quote]
And Cerberus failed with them how?[/quote]

The usual.  Blood.  Death.  Screaming.  Shepard has to show up and put them down.

[quote]
Please specify doubletalk.  I'm just pointing out that A) Harbringer can remote control Collectors presumably using Reaper tech There's little reason to think he couldn't play around with other tech at the base, including laying traps for people trying to study it.  TIM may very well find his Cerberus teams having fatal "accidents" or ending up getting indoctrinated or huskified. 
[/quote]
A) All Collectors are dead.
OH NOES TEH (possible) TRAPS

Here's a word Cerberus is very well acquainted with: risk.
Here's a phrase which should change your mind (but it won't): Cycle of Destruction.[/quote]

Personally, I'd preplace (possible) with (likely).  To quote Ripley "I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure"

And I think the word Cerberus is even more acquainted with is:  turnover
here's a quote:   "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire."

Good idea:  Study Reaper tech to learn weaknesses in it
Bad idea:  Study Reaper tech so TIM can build some new toys

Ultimately, we need to find a new bag of tricks if we want to defeat the Reapers and still have a galaxy to live in.

[quote]
[quote]
It is not (to me) an unreasonable assumption that Harbringer could turn the Collector Base into his very own version of Home Alone to keep himself occupied while on cruise control to the Milky Way.
[/quote]
"Releasing Control."[/quote]

"Releasing control" of a tool that's about to be destroyed.  Perhaps to "Assume direct control" of an airlock somewhere

Cerberus scientist:  "That control panel's making an odd noise, like a snickering Reaper"

[quote]
You did skip over the whole "terrorist organization that's not above kidnapping, bribery, murder, and unethical medical experiments for fun & profit" 
[/quote]
Face it: you're a wimp.  Wah.  I can't uze teh Reaper Tech's to Fights teh BADGUIZ.[/quote]

I have no idea where this quote came from, but it fits: 

"There are three types of people in the world.  Those who learn by reading.  Those who learn by observation.  And those who have to touch the fire to see if it really is hot".

My Shepards have seen and read enough about fire, thankyouverymuch.

[quote]
It doesn't matter if they're good/bad, right/wrong, here or there.  They're on your side.  They're going to keep doing so.  You need everyone's help.  Or else everything and everyone DIES.

Forever.

Again.

David: "PLEASE MAKE IT STOP."[/quote]

Sure, Cerberus might be on my side.  I'm not questioning their motives.  I know they'll fight for humanity.  What  I question is their methods, their wisdom, and their restraint.

[quote]
[quote]
Like I said, it's a frustrating but true fact that Cerberus is the only organization that hasn't sufferd brain damage in the last two years concerning the Reaper threat.  However, their reputation belies any "kinder, gentler" talk TIM or Miranda may try to convey.  Best case:  TIM is incompetant.  Worst case, an absolute sociopath.  The simple fact is, a paragon Shepard is unlikely to believe the galaxy would be any better off if the Reapers won, or Cerberus.  Because it would not be the Alliance that won, or the Council, or any other government or organization.  It would be Cerberus.
[/quote]
Cerberus got a retcon, or an exposition, or whatever.  Frankly it doesn't really matter what group helped Shepard out in ME2: the fact is you've got a base THAT MAKES F*CKING REAPERS.  You research the crap out of it.[/quote]

And if there was a rsearcher I trusted on hand, maybe, just maybe, I would have risked it.  But not Cerberus. 

[quote]
Because it makes f*cking Reapers.
[/quote]

"If the base is a-rockin..."?

[quote]
Did I mention it makes your enemy?  Yeah, that enemy that's going to KILL EVERYTHING FOREVER, AGAIN?  Remember those Prothean visions? Remember how Shepard is the guy who's going to save us all, because he/she knows what's going?

DO EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO STOP THE REAPERS.

Or don't. Cause you know: "It's a trap."

Or something about a "soul" being "sacrificed" for "humanity" or "something."  Bluh.[/quote]

Kahoku
David
Akuze
Pragia
Chasca
Listening Post Alpha
These the guys you want playing around with the same technology that's gonna KILL EVERYTHING FOREVER?  They might get the job done before the Reapers even get here.

[quote]
[quote]
Sure, any serious defenses and the Normandy would have been just another wreck in the pile.
[/quote]
We can't have that.  We've got a ground team to magically infiltrate a massive space station.[/quote]

Yup.   Another reason not to bother sparing the station.  TIM likely already knows all the relevent info it can provide.

[quote]
[quote]
For one thing, the Reaper IFF mission shows even "dead" Reaper tech can still indoctrinate/huskify people.  Also:
[/quote]
That's a dead Reaper.  If the IFF is "dead" Reaper tech, why aren't we all indoctrinated yet?  Why isn't EDI trying to husk us up?  How come Mr. Thanix isn't ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL of our ass?  Maybe that's why Garrus must calibrate the sh+t out of it?  Maybe that cybernetic impant of his already has him under Reaper control![/quote]

The IFF may not have been the tech that caused indoctrination (though it was booby-trapped, you recall) but clearly something that caused indoctrination was still active on the "dead" Reaper.

EDI is (as far as we know) loyal.  The thannix cannon hasn't usurped the Nomandy,although that would explain the calibrations.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't use extreme caution around Reaper technology.

[quote]
UNC: Missing Survey Team: Exo Geni team finds Reaper tech and wackiness ensues.
UNC: Colony of the Dead is another example of Husks Gone Wild thanks to Cerberus research.

You gotta treat Reaper technology like it's Cthulhu:  just cause it's dead doesn't mean it can't still kill you horribly.
[/quote]
Be sure to write that in the memo.[/quote]

Indeed

[quote]
[quote]
Cerberus chose the wrong colors for their uniforms.  Instead of black, white, and gold, they should just have solid red shirts
[/quote]
Little bloody noses = results.[/quote]

No wonder they lose whole science teams at a time.  Cerberus is more ambitious than I thought.

[upsettingshorts]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Like I said: Galactic Facism! A system of government marked by centralization of authority under humanity, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Who said I was going for any of those things?  Furthermore what does that have to do with my explanation of what terrorists actually are?  You're taking a lot of extreme views "as read" and I am most certainly not endorsing or implying them.  

"Pro Human Renegade" leaves in my opinion a TON of wiggle room - I do not play anything remotely close to pure Paragon or Renegade - ever.

[upsettingshorts]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
How fitting your own signature is here: "In defeat, malice."

That quote is from a comedy. 

[The Big Nothing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

Like I said: Galactic Facism! A system of government marked by centralization of authority under humanity, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Who said I was going for any of those things?  Furthermore what does that have to do with my explanation of what terrorists actually are?  You're taking a lot of extreme views "as read" and I am most certainly not endorsing or implying them.  

"Pro Human Renegade" leaves in my opinion a TON of wiggle room - I do not play anything remotely close to pure Paragon or Renegade - ever.

The Illusive Man is Mussolini. Can you not see it? The name is an anagram: Illusive Man = Meausullini V. Mussolini the Fifth! 
I am unsure of who Mussolinis 2-4 were.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...
Quite frankly, I don't see how it helps if their actions are terroristic, even if their motives are different.

That's why the term is loaded.  "Terroristic" actions in a very real sense only serve to generate terror, there is no other purpose in their execution.  The difference in motivation is of key importance.

Look, I'm not asking people to change their minds about Cerberus - far from it - I just think that calling them terrorists is extremely misleading to the point that it makes it easier to dismiss what they have to say without having to genuinely think about it. 

If you or anyone else wants to call them unfeeling unethical criminals, I'm all for it.  But terrorists and terrorism are specific terms, and to contemporary readers also... well... loaded.  Because we subconsciously start associating them with Osama bin Laden.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:15 .

[Mecha Tengu]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

Like I said: Galactic Facism! A system of government marked by centralization of authority under humanity, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Who said I was going for any of those things?  Furthermore what does that have to do with my explanation of what terrorists actually are?  You're taking a lot of extreme views "as read" and I am most certainly not endorsing or implying them.  

"Pro Human Renegade" leaves in my opinion a TON of wiggle room - I do not play anything remotely close to pure Paragon or Renegade - ever.

The Illusive Man is Mussolini. Can you not see it? The name is an anagram: Illusive Man = Meausullini V. Mussolini the Fifth! 
I am unsure of who Mussolinis 2-4 were.

[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YF1QOOPj1LMGNM:http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/red_5ive/funny%20stuff/ROFLMAO.jpg&t=1[/img]

[PWENER]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

Like I said: Galactic Facism! A system of government marked by centralization of authority under humanity, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Who said I was going for any of those things?  Furthermore what does that have to do with my explanation of what terrorists actually are?  You're taking a lot of extreme views "as read" and I am most certainly not endorsing or implying them.  

"Pro Human Renegade" leaves in my opinion a TON of wiggle room - I do not play anything remotely close to pure Paragon or Renegade - ever.

The Illusive Man is Mussolini. Can you not see it? The name is an anagram: Illusive Man = Meausullini V. Mussolini the Fifth! 
I am unsure of who Mussolinis 2-4 were.

Been waiting to use it all day.

[Xilizhra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Quite frankly, I don't see how it helps if their actions are terroristic, even if their motives are different.

That's why the term is loaded.  "Terroristic" actions in a very real sense only serve to generate terror, there is no other purpose in their execution.  The difference in motivation is of key importance.

Look, I'm not asking people to change their minds about Cerberus - far from it - I just think that calling them terrorists is extremely misleading to the point that it makes it easier to dismiss what they have to say without having to genuinely think about it. 

If you or anyone else wants to call them unfeeling unethical criminals, I'm all for it.  But terrorists and terrorism are specific terms, and to contemporary readers also... well... loaded.  Because we subconsciously start associating them with Osama bin Laden.

"Criminals" just doesn't seem to go quite far enough for people who wipe out whole colonies and torture numerous children for science. You're right in that they're technically not terrorists because their motives differ, but they act exactly like them.

[jbblue05]

If you saved the Council the Alliance took HEAVY LOSSES



Their should've been more humans and Alliance soldiers who didn't think of Shepard as a hero and calling him a traitor Council's new pet.



But no Paragons can sell out on humans and everyone loves them

[upsettingshorts]

They don't act similar at all. The why and how are important. Especially when it comes to the word terrorism or terrorist.

Heck, call 'em murderers. It'd still be more accurate than terrorist.

Labeling Cerberus terrorists gives us (on the forum) and the Alliance (in game) the ability to casually dismiss them and anything they have to say. That is dangerous, especially when in the context of Mass Effect 2 they happen to be right about what is probably the most important issue in the galaxy.

jbblue05 wrote...

Their
should've been more humans and Alliance soldiers who didn't think of
Shepard as a hero and calling him a traitor Council's new pet.

There are, but they seem to only be represented by that reporter Al-Jilani. 

The game in general could use more Paragon choices blowing up in Shepard's face, and more Renegade options working out better than expected.  The only really obvious - and its truly minor - example I can think of is that Eclipse Merc who actually ended up being the murderer during Samara's recruitment mission.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:23 .

[Xilizhra]

jbblue05 wrote...

If you saved the Council the Alliance took HEAVY LOSSES

Their should've been more humans and Alliance soldiers who didn't think of Shepard as a hero and calling him a traitor Council's new pet.

But no Paragons can sell out on humans and everyone loves them

Al-Jilani. And the Alliance lost a couple thousand people, a fifth of the Destiny Ascension's crew. The PR boost for humanity as a whole probably did a lot to dispel bitter feelings as well.

[Xilizhra]

Labeling Cerberus terrorists gives us (on the forum) and the Alliance (in game) the ability to casually dismiss them and anything they have to say. That is dangerous, especially when in the context of Mass Effect 2 they happen to be right about what is probably the most important issue in the galaxy.

I'm not dismissing them. Just because TIM is a despicable bastard doesn't mean he can't have useful information or resources. I reject them because of their actions alone.

The game in general could use more Paragon choices blowing up in Shepard's face, and more Renegade options working out better than expected. The only really obvious - and its truly minor - example I can think of is that Eclipse Merc who actually ended up being the murderer during Samara's recruitment mission.

I found it satisfying, thankfully. Anaya's after her now, and I don't really like performing vigilante executions on cowering women.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

I found it satisfying, thankfully. Anaya's after her now, and I don't really like performing vigilante executions on cowering women.

She pulled out her gun and pointed it a you. :x