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[upsettingshorts]

Cowering, heh, it was an act.

Edit: Granted the time I did shoot her in the face was when I saw the Renegade interrupt pop up right as she pulled her gun on me.  The "turning out better than I thought" part was when it was later confirmed she was the killer.  I also remembered the Volus' explanation that all Eclipse sisters must kill to earn their uniform.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:31 .

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I found it satisfying, thankfully. Anaya's after her now, and I don't really like performing vigilante executions on cowering women.

She pulled out her gun and pointed it a you. :x

So did I. She dropped hers.

Cowering, heh, it was an act.

She was literally praying for her life before I even came into the room with her.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[PWENER]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I found it satisfying, thankfully. Anaya's after her now, and I don't really like performing vigilante executions on cowering women.

She pulled out her gun and pointed it a you. :x

You shoot me, I shoot you.

[upsettingshorts]

And in a game where Renegade behavior is ever rewarded - she would come back during the boss fight shooting if you spared her life.

That's the imbalance people are talking about. Being a Paragon is about giving people second chances. AND IT ALWAYS WORKS OUT.

That's not realistic, or compelling. It's easy to be the good guy when it never causes you any problems. Therefore it's not rewarding being the good guy. Therefore being the ruthless guy is just being a jerk, instead of being careful.

Xilizhra wrote...

She was literally praying for her life before I even came into the room with her.

That is one of those "sorry she got caught" and not "sorry she did it" situations.  The audio clip you later get makes that pretty clear.  She's okay murdering a defenseless volus with enthusiasm, though.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:35 .

[jbblue05]

Xilizhra wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

If you saved the Council the Alliance took HEAVY LOSSES

Their should've been more humans and Alliance soldiers who didn't think of Shepard as a hero and calling him a traitor Council's new pet.

But no Paragons can sell out on humans and everyone loves them

Al-Jilani. And the Alliance lost a couple thousand people, a fifth of the Destiny Ascension's crew. The PR boost for humanity as a whole probably did a lot to dispel bitter feelings as well.

You think the Alliance cares more about a PR boost and not about the fact that the Arcturus Fleet lost most of its ships.

Al-Jilani was a weak attempt for renegades and paragons.
 
Paragons should be punished even more risking ships that needed to be used to fight Sovereign just to save 1 ship
But no everybody loves paragons everythings goes perfectly nobody who openly despises your choice at the Citadel.\\

[Xilizhra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

And in a game where Renegade behavior is ever rewarded - she would come back during the boss right shooting.

That's the imbalance people are talking about. Being a Paragon is about giving people second chances. AND IT ALWAYS WORKS OUT.

That's not realistic, or compelling. It's easy to be the good guy when it never causes you any problems. Therefore it's not rewarding being the good guy. Therefore being the ruthless guy is just being a jerk, instead of being careful.

Xilizhra wrote...

She was literally praying for her life before I even came into the room with her.

That is one of those "sorry she got caught" and not "sorry she did it" situations.  The audio clip you later get makes that pretty clear.  She's okay with murdering a defenseless volus with enthusiasm, though.

That sounds rather metagamy. Renegade Shepard has no reason to believe that he's simply being a jerk, every reason to believe that he's just being careful. Since the Paragon things never happen in a Renegade universe...

Also, I don't really think that she deserved to die. If I could have arrested her, I would, but it wasn't an option. In any case, I made my decision based on in-game knowledge at that time, and don't regret it.

[upsettingshorts]

Eh, I don't have a problem with that working out the way it did. Humans and Turians and Asari are allies. Sometimes you lose men helping your allies, there's nothing inherently wrong with that - and it certainly isn't selling them out.



I think a better side effect for the Paragon choice should have been that it took longer to kill Sovereign - as some ships were lost saving the Ascension - and therefore there was much more collateral damage to the Citadel. Something to reflect the loss of firepower.

[Barquiel]

jbblue05 wrote...


You think the Alliance cares more about a PR boost and not about the fact that the Arcturus Fleet lost most of its ships.

Hackett lost eight cruisers, not the whole fleet.

[The Big Nothing]

jbblue05 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

If you saved the Council the Alliance took HEAVY LOSSES

Their should've been more humans and Alliance soldiers who didn't think of Shepard as a hero and calling him a traitor Council's new pet.

But no Paragons can sell out on humans and everyone loves them

Al-Jilani. And the Alliance lost a couple thousand people, a fifth of the Destiny Ascension's crew. The PR boost for humanity as a whole probably did a lot to dispel bitter feelings as well.

You think the Alliance cares more about a PR boost and not about the fact that the Arcturus Fleet lost most of its ships.

Al-Jilani was a weak attempt for renegades and paragons.
 
Paragons should be punished even more risking ships that needed to be used to fight Sovereign just to save 1 ship
But no everybody loves paragons everythings goes perfectly nobody who openly despises your choice at the Citadel.\\\\

Wait until Mass Effect 3 - I'm sure we paragons will get ours.

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...
That sounds rather metagamy. Renegade Shepard has no reason to believe that he's simply being a jerk, every reason to believe that he's just being careful. Since the Paragon things never happen in a Renegade universe...

Also, I don't really think that she deserved to die. If I could have arrested her, I would, but it wasn't an option. In any case, I made my decision based on in-game knowledge at that time, and don't regret it.

It is a little metagamey, but thats the part where I'm talking about my frustration as a player with how easy Paragon is and how pointless Renegade seems.

In the actual game situation you are told explicitly before the mission starts that Eclipse sisters must have killed someone to earn their uniform.  The "cowering girl" is wearing an Eclipse uniform, and constantly eyeing her gun.  A careful Shepard has plenty of good reasons to shoot her in the face.

The fact we find out later that she was actually the murderer is an example of a Renegade being rewarded - and a weak one, because there are so few - by showing that his or her instincts "She's full Eclipse, her cowering little girl act was just an act" were correct!  This so rarely happens in Mass Effect that some players are starting to have (metagame) complaints about it.

Renegade/careful instincts are never proven correct.  They're always proven petty and cruel.  There ought to be more variety in the fallout from a decision.

[Xilizhra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
That sounds rather metagamy. Renegade Shepard has no reason to believe that he's simply being a jerk, every reason to believe that he's just being careful. Since the Paragon things never happen in a Renegade universe...

Also, I don't really think that she deserved to die. If I could have arrested her, I would, but it wasn't an option. In any case, I made my decision based on in-game knowledge at that time, and don't regret it.

It is a little metagamey, but thats the part where I'm talking about my frustration as a player with how easy Paragon is and how pointless Renegade seems.

In the actual game situation you are told explicitly before the mission starts that Eclipse sisters must have killed someone to earn their uniform.  The "cowering girl" is wearing an Eclipse uniform, and constantly eyeing her gun.  A careful Shepard has plenty of good reasons to shoot her in the face.

The fact we find out later that she was actually the murderer is an example of a Renegade being rewarded - and a weak one, because there are so few - by showing that his or her instincts "She's full Eclipse, her cowering little girl act was just an act" were correct!  This so rarely happens in Mass Effect that some players are starting to have (metagame) complaints about it.

Renegade/careful instincts are never proven correct.  They're always proven petty and cruel.  There ought to be more variety in the fallout from a decision.

If you're a Paragon who wants more bad things to happen to make it interesting, then that's understandable and I sympathize; I suspect Bioware cut your target demographic out in favor of the people who enjoy things going well against impossible odds, like myself; I can't complain, but I hope that you find something more to your tastes as well. If you're a Renegade complaining about how a game whose choices are ones that you're not personally making are too good... you're a wanker.

As for Elnora, I really don't think it was an act; there was no one to see it when she was asking the Goddess to not let Shepard see her. I also wonder, and by that I mean I'm saying nothing conclusive, if there's anything significant about the volus in question having sold her and her comrades a drug that could easily have killed them all, without telling them.

[PWENER]

The Big Nothing wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

If you saved the Council the Alliance took HEAVY LOSSES

Their should've been more humans and Alliance soldiers who didn't think of Shepard as a hero and calling him a traitor Council's new pet.

But no Paragons can sell out on humans and everyone loves them

Al-Jilani. And the Alliance lost a couple thousand people, a fifth of the Destiny Ascension's crew. The PR boost for humanity as a whole probably did a lot to dispel bitter feelings as well.

You think the Alliance cares more about a PR boost and not about the fact that the Arcturus Fleet lost most of its ships.

Al-Jilani was a weak attempt for renegades and paragons.
 
Paragons should be punished even more risking ships that needed to be used to fight Sovereign just to save 1 ship
But no everybody loves paragons everythings goes perfectly nobody who openly despises your choice at the Citadel.\\\\\\\\

Wait until Mass Effect 3 - I'm sure we paragons will get ours.

Yes you will...



We are so ****ed in ME3 either way.

[izmirtheastarach]

PWENER wrote...

BW wouldn't have made the choice to keep it just to have "blow up in your face" like evryone keeps saying. Wethever you trust TIM or not is not the issue, it's that the freaking god machines called Reapers are coming and the only way you will prevail is if your ready to make the hard choices BW always mentions in they're trailers.

That's why, because the *****ng Reapers are almost at your doorstep and you can't get over the stupid "I don't trust TIM" issue.

Okay. Let's look at the facts. Every single time you come across a Cerberus experiment, it is completely out of control. On the derelict, at Project Overlord, the release of the Rachni in ME1. They have a proven track record of screwing things up royally. 

And yes, the Reapers are on our doorstep, so the solution is to facilitate the creation of a bunch of midless zombies who Shep will have to kill later. Great.

We are arguing about in-game justification. If you want to argue about out of game reasoning, it's just as likely that Bioware simply put in in as a moral choice, and very little will result from it. We have no way of knowing at this point.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:50 .

[jbblue05]

Barquiel wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...


You think the Alliance cares more about a PR boost and not about the fact that the Arcturus Fleet lost most of its ships.

Hackett lost eight cruisers, not the whole fleet.

Where did you get that info from and I never said the whole fleet.

Do you mean 8 total  or 8 from fighting Sovereign or 8 from saving the Council

If its 8 total Renegades got the short end of the stick even more because Sovereign easily takes out 3 to 4 Alliance Ships.if you left the Council

If you saved the Council the Alliance is supposed to be severly crippled if you left the Council to die humanity has the largest fleet on the Council

I don't see how having 4 more cruisers equals Largest fleet in Council space while having four less equals Heavy Losses by the Alliance.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...


You think the Alliance cares more about a PR boost and not about the fact that the Arcturus Fleet lost most of its ships.

Hackett lost eight cruisers, not the whole fleet.

The game is continually inconsistent about how much it matters. You lose eight cruisers, it's as if the Alliance is militarily too weak for some time. The Turians and Asari lose what they do, and somehow the Alliance comes up as military juggernaut.

Mass Effect is very, very weak when it comes to being consistent and reasonable with numbers. The continuity of scale is very weak, and so narrative depiction is by and large far better than number counting.

[Mecha Tengu]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Renegade/careful instincts are never proven correct.  They're always proven petty and cruel.  There ought to be more variety in the fallout from a decision.

kill that blue sun engineer during garrus recruitment, reward: helicopter does not assrape you

kill that asari merc in samara recruitment: reward she does not come back later to fight you


if you guess if you want to go lulz plot: 

kill vido, Zaeed takes over as blue suns leader (presumably) and that would be a great asset on your team. Else the Blue suns simply disbands

though I admit more paragon options lead to better sucess such as not killing Wrex. Being the bad guy simply just doesn't appeal to children who play this game. They want to be the godamn hero that everyone loves.

Renegade options should be reworked for ME3

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Why would the Blue Suns disband just because Vido is gone?

[PWENER]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

PWENER wrote...

BW wouldn't have made the choice to keep it just to have "blow up in your face" like evryone keeps saying. Wethever you trust TIM or not is not the issue, it's that the freaking god machines called Reapers are coming and the only way you will prevail is if your ready to make the hard choices BW always mentions in they're trailers.

That's why, because the *****ng Reapers are almost at your doorstep and you can't get over the stupid "I don't trust TIM" issue.

Okay. Let's look at the facts. Every single time you come across a Cerberus experiment, it is completely out of control. On the derelict, at Project Overlord, the release of the Rachni in ME1. They have a proven track record of screwing things up royally. 

And yes, the Reapers are on our doorstep, so the solution is to facilitate the creation of a bunch of midless zombies who Shep will have to kill later. Great.

We are arguing about in-game justification. If you want to argue about out of game reasoning, it's just as likely that Bioware simply put in in as a moral choice, and very little will result from it. We have no way of knowing at this point.

Hey, you just came into this thread, so why don't you read the 8 pages of discussion that lead to me saying that before making your post a fact. The nerve of some people.

[Barquiel]

jbblue05 wrote...

Where did you get that info from and I never said the whole fleet.

The Khalisah al-Jilani interview.



The turians lost 20 cruisers, the alliance 8

[Mr. Gogeta34]

MassEffect762 wrote...

HomicidialFrog wrote...

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the Mass Relays. Our technology. By using it you develop along paths we desire."

Smart, very smart.

That's exactly why I kept the base. 

Without preparing for the Reaper's specific capabilities (lets face it, neither the Reapers or Collectors expected the suicide mission to happen), you will develop along the path they desire trying to aimlessly trust in your default tech that's already been proven useless against the Reapers and Sovereign.

Without Mordin's research into the Collectors, the Seeker swarms would've made our defeat come even faster (as they too were controlled by the reapers).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:56 .

[Mecha Tengu]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Why would the Blue Suns disband just because Vido is gone?

iono writer plot laziness?

and Im much sure that Zaeed will take over Blue Suns if Vido is dead anyway

[chris025657]

PWENER wrote...


So for those of you using the excuse of taking the base for fighting the Reapers, stop lying to yourselfs and face the truth (I kept it and killed the council, but at least I know what's coming

I don't believe this presents a fair view of Cerberus and their motives.

One of Cerberus's core values has always been the survival of humanity against real (and sometimes falsely perceived) threats. Cerberus is currently one of the few groups that recognizes the Reaper threat and has actively taken steps against them. Cerberus poured enormous resources into bringing Shepard back , rebuilding the Normandy, and funding his mission not to achieve dominance but to save human lives from the Collectors and their Reaper masters. 

I also think it's a bit dishonest to ignore all of the Illusive man's lines about using the base as a means of achieving salvation from the Reapers. 

[Lord Jaric]

PWENER wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

PWENER wrote...

BW wouldn't have made the choice to keep it just to have "blow up in your face" like evryone keeps saying. Wethever you trust TIM or not is not the issue, it's that the freaking god machines called Reapers are coming and the only way you will prevail is if your ready to make the hard choices BW always mentions in they're trailers.

That's why, because the *****ng Reapers are almost at your doorstep and you can't get over the stupid "I don't trust TIM" issue.

Okay. Let's look at the facts. Every single time you come across a Cerberus experiment, it is completely out of control. On the derelict, at Project Overlord, the release of the Rachni in ME1. They have a proven track record of screwing things up royally. 

And yes, the Reapers are on our doorstep, so the solution is to facilitate the creation of a bunch of midless zombies who Shep will have to kill later. Great.

We are arguing about in-game justification. If you want to argue about out of game reasoning, it's just as likely that Bioware simply put in in as a moral choice, and very little will result from it. We have no way of knowing at this point.

Hey, you just came into this thread, so why don't you read the 8 pages of discussion that lead to me saying that before making your post a fact. The nerve of some people.

Ironically you have been doing the same thing the whole time.

[upsettingshorts]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you're a Paragon who wants more bad things to happen to make it interesting, then that's understandable and I sympathize; I suspect Bioware cut your target demographic out in favor of the people who enjoy things going well against impossible odds, like myself; I can't complain, but I hope that you find something more to your tastes as well. If you're a Renegade complaining about how a game whose choices are ones that you're not personally making are too good... you're a wanker.

I trend Paragon, though I cheat to give myself maxed out bars - thus making my options more or less unlimited and thereby follow my own personal morality.

But to the bolded part of your paragraph, this is where I think you might be missing the point I'm trying to make.  In Mass Effect 1 and 2, doing the right thing almost never adds to the degree of difficulty.  The odds are the same.  If being a Paragon made the odds tougher, than I'd be 100% behind your interpretation of the way the game works, but they really don't.  Being a Renegade should be about evening the odds, setting it up so that it's more likely you get the job done.
And sometimes, the game presents it as just that.  But since we all metagame, consciously or unconsciously, we can't help but notice how the Renegade choice never ends up improving the odds.  Personally that makes it feel like the game is coddling me, reinforcing the comfortable decisions and reminding me I did the right thing.  It's cheap, and I don't like it.  A great example being how everyone on the ship gives you an attaboy after you blow up the Collector base.  A little bit of controversy would go a long way.  Someone with the balls to remind you that you just might regret the decision.  NOPE.  But hey, if you saved Rana Thanoptis your crew will sure speak up about that one.  Gonna bite me in the ass, that decision.  Thanks everyone I ever brought on that mission.

As for Elnora, I really don't think it was an act; there was no one to see it when she was asking the Goddess to not let Shepard see her. I also wonder, and by that I mean I'm saying nothing conclusive, if there's anything significant about the volus in question having sold her and her comrades a drug that could easily have killed them all, without telling them.

Oh I don't doubt her fear of death was genuine.  Her explanation about how she didn't belong there and made a mistake was the act.  The Volus may have been a liar and a cheat, but I have no reason to doubt his explanation of the Eclipse entrance requirements.
But we're getting far apart on the reason for bringing up that example:  If you made the safe Renegade decision of shooting her in the face, you were rewarded - at least in part - by the audio record.  I also proposed a Paragon penalty - if the game was more fair about handing out consequences - where she would show up during the boss battle if you spared her life. The specifics are more or less immaterial. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The Reapers expect the races to use the technology they left them with.



The Reapers WEREN'T expecting any of the races to actually incorporate or prepare against their far superior counter-technology.