111 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

Attacking Liara would ****** off Shepard. TIM doesn't want to ****** off Shepard. Maybe if you told TIM to get lost he might, but I doubt it.

[tonnactus]

jbblue05 wrote...




You do know the ship has a major flaw.

Its powered by the lightning storm and provides a great hideout.

Who said it couldnt be upgraded...
Or that is impossible to just copy all the data and take a new ship.Just a little more fantasy please.I am sure the shadowbroker
ressources are not smaller then that of a human terrorists organisation.Even enough money to build a third "normandy".

Modifié par tonnactus, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
In case you didn't know, Cerberus TOOK OUT the Shadow Broker with a simple "Hey, Shep, if you don't mind..." e-mail. And TSB's info on Cerberus isn't all good. 4 cigarettes? Come on, TIM smokes a lot more than that!!!

Now, the Shadow Broker's ship doesn't come across as a space-faring one... One antimatter torpedo from a stealth frigate should do the job, if Liara ever becomes a problem.

No, Cerberus took out the Shadow Broker by getting intel on him. Shepard doesn't count as a Cerberus weapon, because he/she may or may not choose to do TIM's bidding.  And Cerberus has nothing even close to Shepard, to replace him/her.

If the SB's ship can't do normal space travel, how did it get there? Why build such an unflexible ship in the first place? Also one torpedo might not be enough to take the thing out. The SB, just like Liara, was quite paranoid. A ship without defense? Unlikely.
Besides there is only one stealth ship I know of and thats the Normandy. I doubt Cerberus has the resources to build another, and certainly not after Retribution.
Also Liara is likely to find out if Cerberus tries something. Even if she doesn't, she might relocate the base - actually it is not clear how much Cerberus actually knows about the SB base location. Liara had to follow leads to find it, even with Cerberus data. In any case Liara knows what Cerberus knows and she is very likely to make sure that they cannot find her.

On a more general note, I do not see why Cerberus should attack the SB base, between ME2 and ME3. Liara is helping Shepard, who might be with Cerberus, or else is at least trying to destroy the Reapers, which has priority. After Retribution Cerberus might consider taking over the SB network to help them get back up to their feet. But honestly, after Retribution they certainly won't be able to manage Liara.
Basically I do not see much aggression potential between Cerberus and the Liara Broker, between ME2 and ME3. Their first priority targets are aligned.

Modifié par krimesh, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[jbblue05]

tonnactus wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...




You do know the ship has a major flaw.

Its powered by the lightning storm and provides a great hideout.

Who said it couldnt be upgraded...
Or that is impossible to just copy all the data and take a new ship.Just a little more fantasy please.I am sure the shadowbroker
ressources are not smaller then that of a human terrorists organisation.Even enough money to build a third "normandy".

It took decades to build that ship I doubt a simple upgrade could change how the ship is powered

The SB ship is state of the art their are probably no other ships like it. Why would you get rid of it?  It provides an excellent hideout and a highly defensible position.

Moving an entire archive is just as or more risky then Cerberus knowing the location of your base. I'm sure their monitoring Liara 24/7 

It doesn't matter who has more resources its about who can effectively use their resources

The Shadow Broker has more resources then TIM.  But TIM came out on top while the SB was killed

[mosor]

krimesh wrote...

And Cerberus has nothing even close to Shepard, to replace him/her.

Kai Leng is pretty close

Besides there is only one stealth ship I know of and thats the Normandy. I doubt Cerberus has the resources to build another, and certainly not after Retribution.

There are other Normandy class ships. The Ain Jalut for one. You only hear about it if you killed the council though

On a more general note, I do not see why Cerberus should attack the SB base, between ME2 and ME3. Liara is helping Shepard, who might be with Cerberus, or else is at least trying to destroy the Reapers, which has priority. After Retribution Cerberus might consider taking over the SB network to help them get back up to their feet. But honestly, after Retribution they certainly won't be able to manage Liara.
Basically I do not see much aggression potential between Cerberus and the Liara Broker, between ME2 and ME3. Their first priority targets are aligned.

I agree with the rest. There isn't a reason for Liara and TIM to fight since they're both working on stopping the reapers, unless your Shepard is out to screw TIM.

[krimesh]

I doubt that Kai Leng is close. If he was, or indeed anyone was, TIM wouldn't have bothered with the Larzarus project. Kai Leng is more like a human Thane maybe, by skill that is.

I did not know about other Normandy class ships. But their existence doesn't mean that Cerberus has access to them. Hackett being loyal to Shepard, who really earned it in ME1, is hardly good evidence that he is with Cerberus. (Unless I missed something, which is possible.)



Anyway, Liara is brilliant and now she is the Shadow Broker. She has the resources and the intel to prevent Cerberus from finding her, for a very long time.

[krimesh]

jbblue05 wrote...
The Shadow Broker has more resources then TIM.  But TIM came out on top while the SB was killed

In ME it is all about who has Shepard. If Shepard wasn't able to blow away things with more resources than he/she, it wouldn't be Shepard.
You people keep implying that Cerberus brought down the SB... they merely provided a crucial bit of info to Liara who had to patch that in with 2 years of her own work, and then she and Shepard did all the blowing up. While Cerberus was involved and crucial, they did not carry the load.

[Fiery Phoenix]

krimesh wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
The Shadow Broker has more resources then TIM.  But TIM came out on top while the SB was killed

In ME it is all about who has Shepard. If Shepard wasn't able to blow away things with more resources than he/she, it wouldn't be Shepard.
You people keep implying that Cerberus brought down the SB... they merely provided a crucial bit of info to Liara who had to patch that in with 2 years of her own work, and then she and Shepard did all the blowing up. While Cerberus was involved and crucial, they did not carry the load.

That's exactly it.

[jbblue05]

krimesh wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
The Shadow Broker has more resources then TIM.  But TIM came out on top while the SB was killed

In ME it is all about who has Shepard. If Shepard wasn't able to blow away things with more resources than he/she, it wouldn't be Shepard.
You people keep implying that Cerberus brought down the SB... they merely provided a crucial bit of info to Liara who had to patch that in with 2 years of her own work, and then she and Shepard did all the blowing up. While Cerberus was involved and crucial, they did not carry the load.

Cerberus got a lot of intel on the SB.
Did you see how overwhelmed and shocked Liara looked when Shepard gave her the data.  I'm guessing she wasn't as close as she thought she was.
You are right her and Shepard were the muscle

Don't underestimate Kai Leng

He is a total bad ass and has N7 training just like Shepard. The biggest difference is SHepard's a cyborg
He's a one man army just like Shepard but he chooses to run around with no armor  a pistol and a tactical knife

[krimesh]

jbblue05 wrote...
Cerberus got a lot of intel on the SB.
Did you see how overwhelmed and shocked Liara looked when Shepard gave her the data.  I'm guessing she wasn't as close as she thought she was.
You are right her and Shepard were the muscle

Don't underestimate Kai Leng

He is a total bad ass and has N7 training just like Shepard. The biggest difference is SHepard's a cyborg
He's a one man army just like Shepard but he chooses to run around with no armor  a pistol and a tactical knife

I understand that you are a Kai Leng and Cerberus fan. But if Kai Leng can do what Shepard can do, why then did TIM not just turn him into a cyborg as you put it and use him to get the collector base? It would have been cheaper, and there would have been no loyalty issue. Kai Leng wouldn't have blown the base up, like my Shepard did. Besides, choice of weapon is part of the fight. So running around with no armor and a tactical knife is Kai Leng's tactical decision, and no excuse for not quite being Shepard.

Your ability to read Liara's facial expressions is amazing. However it is irrelevant. She had still to do some research to get at the SB's location. So Cerberus did not know where the SB was. Also, it is quite likely that they couldn't finalize it themselves, as TIM wouldn't have passed on an opportunity to take over the SB network.
After Liara takes over the network, she can close the security breach through which she herself found the SB base.

Now she has the SB's resources and above all his information network. In other words, Cerberus is screwed, if TIM tries something funny.

On a personal note, I think that if Kai Leng were to face Liara, he would end up as wet smear on a wall somewhere. All I'm saying is "You mean this body?"

[jbblue05]

krimesh wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Cerberus got a lot of intel on the SB.
Did you see how overwhelmed and shocked Liara looked when Shepard gave her the data.  I'm guessing she wasn't as close as she thought she was.
You are right her and Shepard were the muscle

Don't underestimate Kai Leng

He is a total bad ass and has N7 training just like Shepard. The biggest difference is SHepard's a cyborg
He's a one man army just like Shepard but he chooses to run around with no armor  a pistol and a tactical knife

I understand that you are a Kai Leng and Cerberus fan. But if Kai Leng can do what Shepard can do, why then did TIM not just turn him into a cyborg as you put it and use him to get the collector base? It would have been cheaper, and there would have been no loyalty issue. Kai Leng wouldn't have blown the base up, like my Shepard did. Besides, choice of weapon is part of the fight. So running around with no armor and a tactical knife is Kai Leng's tactical decision, and no excuse for not quite being Shepard.

Your ability to read Liara's facial expressions is amazing. However it is irrelevant. She had still to do some research to get at the SB's location. So Cerberus did not know where the SB was. Also, it is quite likely that they couldn't finalize it themselves, as TIM wouldn't have passed on an opportunity to take over the SB network.
After Liara takes over the network, she can close the security breach through which she herself found the SB base.

Now she has the SB's resources and above all his information network. In other words, Cerberus is screwed, if TIM tries something funny.

On a personal note, I think that if Kai Leng were to face Liara, he would end up as wet smear on a wall somewhere. All I'm saying is "You mean this body?"

Its pretty obvious Bioware wanted to continue Shepard's story and not force you to play a new character.  For some reason TIM thinks Shepard is destined to stop the Reapers and Kai Leng is destined for assasinations and covert ops. Kai Leng is fearless and doesn't back down. What he does in Retribution is impressive.and that's an understatement
I'm not sure but I'm thinking Kai Leng was recruited after Shepsrd was revived

I do take pride in reading others body language and thenks for the compliment
What research did Liara do? listen to Sekat talk
First of all Cerberus knows they would make sure Sekat's info was valid before passing on the lead to Shepard and Cerberus could easily track the Normandy.
TIM allowing Shepard to kill the SB and assume his role doesn't make sense unless its part of TIM's plan.
or its bad writing by Bioware when it would make more sense for TIM to send more loyal agents

The security breach was Sekat and he's dead. Doesn't change the fact he uploaded SB info is in the hands of TIM

I think Liara and TIM  are balanced.  TIM knows where Liara is but won't attack her because of Shep.  Liara is backed by Shep but TIM knows a lot about Liara being the new SB 
You forget that Liarais a noob information broker while TIM has been doing his thing for decades.

You pick Liara I pick Kai Leng the guy never gives up and would assasinate her and not go for a frontal assault

[krimesh]

Yeah, Vasir did not go for frontal assault either. I wouldn't be so bold as to claim that Liara would come out on top if I hadn't thought about this.

Anyway, form my point of view Cerberus is not as powerful as you think. And neither - form my point of view - do most of your arguments hold. But I do think that ME leaves a lot of room for interpretation based on personal preferences. That's why it is possible to legitimately play pro or anti Cerberus.

[CptAwesomePhD]

Everything TIM touches turns into a hilarious mess. Basically every Cerberus-related mission in both games was about you cleaning up the mess because some cell or another screwed up big time. The only thing Cerberus ever did right was bringing Shepard back, and even that didn't turn out the way TIM wanted (unless you gave that base to him, and even then it's just the next blunder waiting to happen).



I mean, look at his dossier in the new DLC. He plays squash in the morning, makes out with celebrities in the evening and the entire time in between he's wasted as hell. Honestly, all the puzzle pieces are coming together at this point.

[krimesh]

Still, you won't be able to convince pro-Cerberus people. Believe me. I tried.

[jbblue05]

krimesh wrote...

Yeah, Vasir did not go for frontal assault either. I wouldn't be so bold as to claim that Liara would come out on top if I hadn't thought about this.
Anyway, form my point of view Cerberus is not as powerful as you think. And neither - form my point of view - do most of your arguments hold. But I do think that ME leaves a lot of room for interpretation based on personal preferences. That's why it is possible to legitimately play pro or anti Cerberus.

Vasir would've had a sniper headshot on Liara but she wasn't counting on Kinetic Barriers and Liara having plot armor  Hand to Hand Liara has no chance against Kai Leng. For Liara to win she needs Kai Leng at a distance to use her Biotics.

Of course Cerberus isn't strong after what happened in Retribution but they will eventually recoup their losses
Liara is the new SB she's bound to make mistakes 
Just to let you know I'm working on both sides

[krimesh]

Funny how I remember a lead gameplay designer writing that stasis was the oh-**** power to get out of unwanted melee encounters... Anyway, drop it, we won't get each other to agree, I tell ya! 

[jbblue05]

krimesh wrote...

Funny how I remember a lead gameplay designer writing that stasis was the oh-**** power to get out of unwanted melee encounters... Anyway, drop it, we won't get each other to agree, I tell ya! 

Agreed

[fongiel24]

jbblue05 wrote...

Don't underestimate Kai Leng

He is a total bad ass and has N7 training just like Shepard. The biggest difference is SHepard's a cyborg
He's a one man army just like Shepard but he chooses to run around with no armor  a pistol and a tactical knife

Kai Leng doesn't choose to run around with no armour and minimal weapons. He was caught by surprise at the Cerberus base and didn't have time to get suited up. He has a hardsuit and a shotgun in his shuttle that Anderson "borrows". Impressive as he is, what do we actually see him do?

(Major Retribution spoilers)




He had an entire team with him when he took out Grayson and Liselle. He took the turian guards at Grayson's apartment and the strike team on the Cerberus base completely by surprise. He managed to disarm and defeat Anderson, a retired soldier, and Kailee, a scientist with only basic training. I'm not saying what he does isn't impressive (the part where he escapes after being shot in both legs particularly so), but Shepard took on a fully Reaper-fied Saren and won. Kai Leng has some serious skills, but Shepard is just ridiculous.

[mosor]

krimesh wrote...
I doubt that Kai Leng is close. If he was, or indeed anyone was, TIM wouldn't have bothered with the Larzarus project. Kai Leng is more like a human Thane maybe, by skill that is.

Why would you doubt Kai Leng is close? He has the exact same training as Shepard. Both are N7 marines. Kai Leng killed a Krogan bare handed. That's tough to do even with Shepard. The game makes it pretty clear that Shepard isn't special because he's a superman with super powers. He's special because he has the ability to have people blindly follow him on faith alone.

As for TIM ressurecting Shep. That whole plotline was lame and stupid. Anyway, it's made pretty clear that TIM spent billions because he values Shep as a symbol for humanity that people can unite behind, not as some super soldier.

I did not know about other Normandy class ships. But their existence doesn't mean that Cerberus has access to them. Hackett being loyal to Shepard, who really earned it in ME1, is hardly good evidence that he is with Cerberus. (Unless I missed something, which is possible.)

Not sure where Hackett's loyalties are. The point is that the ships are being mass produced. In all probability by one of Cerberus' front companies. Besides, what reason would cerberus have not to make another nomandy class ship while making shepard's? They fully expected him not to come back from that mission.

Anyway, Liara is brilliant and now she is the Shadow Broker. She has the resources and the intel to prevent Cerberus from finding her, for a very long time.

The point is kinda moot. The only way she'll work against Cerberus is if Shep asks her to. Anyway, Cerberus is like a weed. They're hard to kill unless you're willing to take out a lot of stuff with them.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Be one hell of a DLC.

Perhaps its inevitable?

You could have the paragon/renegade decision in which you let  TMI live and have both organizations working together --- or kill off TIM and thus ending Cerberus.

One hell of a decision eh?

[ExtremeOne]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Paragon Shep will be too much of an idealist for TIM to allow to live. Renegade Shep (those who gave TIM the base) has outlived his usefulness.TIM is most liekley going to want Shep dead no matter what. 

  


why would he want Shepard dead if he / she gives him the base that would be stupid. now maybe if you do not that then yeah he will want you dead. but if its a war between Cerberus and the new Shadow Broker then i am siding with TIM and Cerberus 

[jbblue05]

fongiel24 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Don't underestimate Kai Leng

He is a total bad ass and has N7 training just like Shepard. The biggest difference is SHepard's a cyborg
He's a one man army just like Shepard but he chooses to run around with no armor  a pistol and a tactical knife

Kai Leng doesn't choose to run around with no armour and minimal weapons. He was caught by surprise at the Cerberus base and didn't have time to get suited up. He has a hardsuit and a shotgun in his shuttle that Anderson "borrows". Impressive as he is, what do we actually see him do?

(Major Retribution spoilers)




He had an entire team with him when he took out Grayson and Liselle. He took the turian guards at Grayson's apartment and the strike team on the Cerberus base completely by surprise. He managed to disarm and defeat Anderson, a retired soldier, and Kailee, a scientist with only basic training. I'm not saying what he does isn't impressive (the part where he escapes after being shot in both legs particularly so), but Shepard took on a fully Reaper-fied Saren and won. Kai Leng has some serious skills, but Shepard is just ridiculous.

Even if he does or doesn't choose to wear armor he still does.  He chose to attack 6 turians by himself when he had no armor and just a tactical knife.
Are you just a Kai Leng hater their are plenty of bad ass things he does he basically does a badass thing everytime the story focus on him.

He brought a team with him to carry Grayson's body and just in case he had to fight his way off of Omega.  He took on 2 heavily armed turian guards by himself who were ready for him and he still took then both out while wearing a casual outfit.

Don't forget he threaten Aria while unarmed when he was surrounded by her goons and didn't flinch or stutter once.

If your going to complain about Kai Leng getting help so did Shepard.  Shepard and Kai Leng both take on impossible odds because that's what N7 marines do.

I never said Kai Leng was better then SHepard why are you assuming that?

I think Kai Leng and Shepard know each other from N7 training.
Shepard was 1st in class while Kai Leng was second in class 
but its just a hunch

[fongiel24]

jbblue05 wrote...

Even if he does or doesn't choose to wear armor he still does.  He chose to attack 6 turians by himself when he had no armor and just a tactical knife.
Are you just a Kai Leng hater their are plenty of bad ass things he does he basically does a badass thing everytime the story focus on him.

"Even if he does or doesn't choose to wear armor he still does" - what does this mean? He jumps the turians not out of choice but because he has to if he's going to rescue TIM and escape the station. It's an impressive feat and one that not many ordinary humans could do, but Karpyshyn makes it clear that Kai Leng only managed it because he hit the turians while they were distracted. He's not running around taking on mobs of enemies with his shirt off. Like all good soldiers, he picks his fights.

He brought a team with him to carry Grayson's body and just in case he had to fight his way off of Omega.  He took on 2 heavily armed turian guards by himself who were ready for him and he still took then both out while wearing a casual outfit.

The turians only realized he was a threat when he was already in striking distance. Again, an impressive display of hand-to-hand combat skills, but the turians still aren't really "ready for him".

Don't forget he threaten Aria while unarmed when he was surrounded by her goons and didn't flinch or stutter once.

So he's able to keep his composure under pressure. All this incident proves is that he has guts. He doesn't actually take on Aria or her goons.

If your going to complain about Kai Leng getting help so did Shepard. Shepard and Kai Leng both take on impossible odds because that's what N7 marines do.

I'm not complaining about Kai Leng getting help, I'm pointing out that he felt the need to take a half dozen men to take on one ordinary human and a naked asari. 

I never said Kai Leng was better then SHepard why are you assuming that?

I never said that you said that Kai Leng was better than Shepard. You argued that Kai Leng shouldn't be underestimated. I simply listed everything he did in Retribution and concluded that none of it quite matches up to what Shepard has done through two games. As for me being a Kai Leng hater, I've given Kai Leng credit where credit is due. He's an exceptional soldier and assassin but beyond that there's nothing to suggest he's capable of stepping into Shepard's shoes.

I think Kai Leng and Shepard know each other from N7 training. Shepard was 1st in class while Kai Leng was second in class but its just a hunch

Kai Leng was freed from a military prison and recruited into Cerberus ten years before ME2, when Shepard would have only been 21. For them to have met in N7 training and stick to the Retribution timeline, Shepard would have had to qualify for N7 and graduate within 4 years (assuming he enlisted at 17, the minimum age the U.S. military accepts recruits) and Kai Leng would have had to graduate from N7, get thrown in jail almost immediately upon graduation, then be rescued by Cerberus right after that. The chances of them being in the same graduating class or crossing paths in the N7 training program at all are minimal.  

Modifié par fongiel24, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[GnusmasTHX]

McAllyster wrote...

I think there is an unfinished business after LotSB - Liara vs. TIM.

In a later DLC or in the ME3 it has to be resolved somehow - especially if Shepard destroyed the Collector Base.

Cerberus knows the location of the SB base, and TIM knows about Liara acting as SB. And TIM is one of the most power hungry people in the galaxy - and he could use the SB's network. (Of course for humanity's best interests, lol). TIM will try to takeover the SB's position - maybe with an attack against Liara.

What do you think?

He can't do **** while I'm still around. And the SB claims to have a readily reinforced army, which Liara now has. Depends on how strong they are, or maybe he might have a few more Spectre's in his pocket.

[tonnactus]

CptAwesomePhD wrote...

Everything TIM touches turns into a hilarious mess. Basically every Cerberus-related mission in both games was about you cleaning up the mess because some cell or another screwed up big time. The only thing Cerberus ever did right was bringing Shepard back, and even that didn't turn out the way TIM wanted

Thats right.Its pure luck that wilson didnt have success with his plan.And wilson was a shadowbroker agent.He nearly killed all the people there by hacking the mech(how did he managed that?).I wouldnt bet any money on cerberus. Aria,by the way,is also likely an enemy of the illusive man now.
Aria wouldnt even need biotics for kai leng,by the way:

"The average asari huntress is in the maiden stage of her life and has devoted 20–30 years to studying the martial arts."

http://masseffect.wi...litary_Doctrine

Modifié par tonnactus, 13 septembre 2010 - 10:16 .