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[Caddywampus]

I'm sorry, I have to interrupt the Kai Leng fanboi fight to bring up this point:



The two organizations are no longer direct competitors.



Cerberus is primarily an influence/pressure organization that attempts to influence technology, policy and society in the direction which TIM believes will most benefit humanity... and Cerberus. The Shadow Broker (at least historically) does not seek to influence technology, policy, or society. TSB only seeks to gather and sell information to the highest bidder.



The point of Cerberus is not unlimited power and resources; it's bringing all the pull to bear that it can while staying under the radar of the authorities (because it lacks the official sanction enjoyed by the similar STG and Spectre forces). Influencing one politician in the right way at the right time requires little else besides knowledge. While TSB's network is useful, it would force Cerberus to expand into business TIM is probably not interested in, and managing that network would prevent TIM from maintaining personal oversight of all of the combined organization's work.



The point of TSB's operation is omniscience, and to a lesser extent, the total anonymity of TSB him-(or now, her)self. TSB is only your enemy if you want TSB to be your enemy; playing every side provides the greatest amount of access to info. Cerberus can either decide to fight against an organization that knows its every little secret, or to nurture a mutually beneficial relationship with the greatest source of intelligence in the galaxy.



The existing quarrel between TIM and TSB was probably instigated by TIM after TSB sold some info about Cerberus. TIM is a vengeful guy, so eliminating him becomes a measure of self-defense for TSB. TSB is dead now, and the mission summary DOES say that Cerberus is taking the opportunity to plug information leaks as Liara settles in. If Cerberus knows of all the leaks, a full purge makes them immune to the danger of TSB, and TSB now becomes a resource for TIM instead of a threat.



At this time, it does not seem that there is any reason for them to fight.



Anyway, I now declare this thread to be about: Who's the better mancrush: Kai Leng or Shepard? Because that's what it was about for the last two pages anyway.

[Zulu_DFA]

tonnactus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It is the case, because it makes far more sense, and is not contradicted by any evidence in-game.

After retribution i rather think they are not clever enough for even such a plan.When someone like grayson could collect
data without problems that nearly destroyed cerberus...
Its a miracle that the shepardt project actually worked,with a lot of luck of course.

TIM: The stories of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

Cerberus ineptness lasts only so long.

[krimesh]

Zsura wrote...

I am not so sure that it makes sense for (an anti-Cerberus) Shep to go after Cerberus right away. We know that Shep did not before Retribution, and after Retribution TIM's recklessness is restrained by lack of resources, so he probably won't be a big threat. If a good opportunity to snuff out what is left of Cerberus presents itself, Shep might choose to, though. But no need to waste a lot of time and resources.

His escape was made possible by a Turian attack, initiated by David Anderson and Kahlee Sanders, how knew nothing of the experiments, but were trying to rescue Greyson.

Even so, I don't think that the Reapers are a subject on which Shepard will give anyone the benefit of the doubt. If TIM did something that allowed Harbinger to make mischief, Shepard will at least get in his face about it.

You imply that after Retribution that Cerberus is so poor that they can no longer sustain operations. Is that actually in the book? If so, maybe that's BioWare writing them out of the story. Cerberus blows all their cash being stupid right as Liara becomes the SB, so Shep ditches them for Liara's organization. That would be sort of an... anticlimactic... resolution to Cerberus. I was hoping paragon Shep gets to arrest TIM and turn him over to the Council or the Alliance, and then, after he's been frog-marched out the door, she'd install Miranda as the new head of Cerberus. That would all be part of getting her forces organized for her next confrontation with the Reapers.

(The following is a major Retribution spoiler. If anyone ever wants to read the novel, don't read this.)

In my opinion Cerberus keeps messing with things they are not smart enough to handle. Be it the Thorian, the Collector Base, the Rachni, Overloard, you name it. There can be no benefit of the doubt for Cerberus, after they climaxed their research by creating a highly volatile situation involving a Reaper-controlled agent (Grayson). So yeah, Shepard should get in their face about it.

However opinions diverge on this matter. The line Zulu_DFA brings up, "The stories of our demise are greatly exaggerated", comes from a conversation between TIM and Aria; the latter had acquired the research data from the Grayson experiment, Cerberus had lost due to the turian attack, and TIM bought a copy of it back. Grayson was killed also; a Cerberus agent, Kai Leng, helped. To be precise, he persuaded a 16 year old biotic kid to play cannon fodder, and tried to point a gun at Grayson at some point. All this lead to Anderson being able to finally shoot the thing - although it is only fair to say that Anderson had wounded Grayson earlier, and that Aria's private army had unloaded their weapons on him too. Due to this, some call the whole affair *another* successful Cerberus operation - nothing to get into TIM's face about. For obvious reasons there has been a lot of word-war about this.

Cerberus is certainly weakened after Retribution. What happened was that a considerable part of Cerberus' assets were taken or destroyed by turian military forces, and many Cerberus operatives were apprehended or killed as well. The Illusive Man was able to escape however, and he seems confident that he will be able to rebuild his organization. Cerberus remains a power to be reckoned with, but I don't think that they will be able to spew out reckless experiments at quite the same frequency any more for some time, which is why I don't see them as a priority target or a threat to Liara, opposing the opinion that a confrontation between the Liara Broker, Shepard and TIM is imminent. (I am assuming that nothing happens before Retribution, because I can't see how Cerberus could attack Liara and emerge still standing if Shepard helps her.)

I don't think that anyone was writing Cerberus out of the game though. As I said, Cerberus is still out there, and their future might well be decided by Shepard in ME3. Typically the ME novels have little influence on the game: Revelation recounts Anderson's and Saren's joint mission, and the events of Ascension are mentioned in two places only: TIM's Olive Branch remark after Freedom's Progress, and Tali saying that Cerberus attacked the Migrant Fleet - just small gestures towards people who did read the novels.

Modifié par krimesh, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:01 .

[lovgreno]

Considering that the turians are now after the (again) weakened Cerberus (they sure know how to make new powerfull enemies for themselves) that almost everyone seems to know about and dislike the Shadow Broker would not have to do much but wait and leak some TIMmy related things to survive Cerberus. It's time for Shepard and the Shadow Broker to sever their ties completely with Cerberus so they don't get dragged down with them.

[Display Name Owner]

I think LotSB made it pretty clear that the SBs organisation dwarfs cerberus. Far more resources, more troops and a vastly greater information network. TIM tried to get in on the SBs organisation with Feron, which failed, whereas SB apparently has access to Cerberus' most intimate secrets, right down to who its leader does the bad thing with every night. In fact, the only reason Cerberus didn't face serious repercussions for interfering with the SB/Collector deal is because the SB decided it was better to leech information of project lazarus. It was in SBs interest to keep Cererus around for a while becaue it got him info and made him money, but according to the dossiers he already had a whole plan set up to take TIM out when he felt like it - so yeah, it looked to me like TIM is off the mark to have even considered himself a rival to the SB. And yeah, you could say that TIM engineered the SBs death through Shepard and Liara but its not like the former SB couldn't have done the same to him (which Liara probably still could). And on top of that, the whole SB chase he set in motion with the intel he had Shep give Liara ended up with the SBs network in her hands, so he is still very much at risk.

[Zulu_DFA]

Hello! Wake up! Cerberus got to TSB first! TSB died, and was replaced by Liara, who has a history of working for Cerberus!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 novembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Display Name Owner]

But she didn't really work for Cerberus, and if she did, she obviously doesn't any more. She completely parted ways with Cerberus after Redemption, TIM didn't even know what she was doing. As he said in the first meeting with Shep, he thought she was working for the SB, which we know was never the case. Like she said, she could start a war in 10 minutes now. She could just as easily set an operation in motion to take TIM down.

[Zulu_DFA]

isnudo wrote...
But she didn't really work for Cerberus, and if she did, she obviously doesn't any more.

Doesn't she? She was awfully helpful with the two fashion show winners on your Cerberus-issued recruitment list.

isnudo wrote...
She completely parted ways with Cerberus after Redemption,

Did she say so?

isnudo wrote...
TIM didn't even know what she was doing. As he said in the first meeting with Shep, he thought she was working for the SB, which we know was never the case.

And you believed TIM. Boo. And here I thought TIM couldn't be trusted.

isnudo wrote...
Like she said, she could start a war in 10 minutes now. She could just as easily set an operation in motion to take TIM down.

Yeah? Why didn't the last Shadow Broker do it? Instead, he was just sitting there waiting to be killed on a Cerberus initiative.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 novembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Display Name Owner]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

isnudo wrote...
But she didn't really work for Cerberus, and if she did, she obviously doesn't any more.

Doesn't she? She was awfully helpful with the two fashion show winners on your Cerberus-issued recruitment list.
 Yeah, to help Shep in the mission against the Collectors. She even refers to it as Shep working with Cerberus to take down the Collectors, rather than working for Cerberus.

isnudo wrote...
She completely parted ways with Cerberus after Redemption,

Did she say so?

Well why would she work for an organisation labelled as Human supremacist when she's not a human?

isnudo wrote...
TIM didn't even know what she was doing. As he said in the first meeting with Shep, he thought she was working for the SB, which we know was never the case.

And you believed TIM. Boo. And here I though TIM couldn't be trusted.

I never said I disliked TIM or thought his every word was a lie. But the alternative to him being mistaken about Liaras intentions is that he did in fact know she was after the SB but he was in no position to offer assistance or leads...

isnudo wrote...
Like she said, she could start a war in 10 minutes now. She could just as easily set an operation in motion to take TIM down.

Yeah? Why didn't the last Shadow Broker do it? Instead, he was just sitting there waiting to be killed on a Cerberus initiative.

In one of the SB dossiers it says someting along the lines of losses suffered due to the Collector deal failing because of TIMs intervention being offset by data gathered from the Lazaurs Project. It also says retaliation will be witheld until Shepards confirmed long term functionality is assured i.e. 1 year after he woke up. The SB didn't move on Cerberus because he decided there was more to be gained by keeping them around for a while. Obviously things blew up in his face, but it doesn't change the fact that had he simply chosen to act differently TIM would be slumped over dead in that nice chair of his.

[Destroy Raiden_]

That is a plausible theory I'm sure TIM didn't tell shep about the broker out of the kindness of his black heart I'm sure he has a motive. To add more to the theory even if one's shep would not willingly give up the info of the base the Normandy could have tracking devices on it, Shep himself/herself could have tracking devices inside him/her and not know it, also shep gains access to SB ship shep can remotely be hacked (evidence via OL) and used as unwilling assassin to TIM to defeat Liara could be another way TIM is planning to go.



Both TIM and Liara are information nuts even if player doesn't deliver the FU to TIM via base destruction he could always use more info and what’s better for his agenda then having power over alien races he wouldn't need to issue orders for assassinations or protest to get alien parties to yield to his demands as SB he could just say look what I have on you and they'd do what he wanted they could factor in this Liara vs TIM into the game just as if you destroyed the base TIM would be coming after you with various plots and methods through out the game until he's destroyed.

[GracefulChicken]

I woud help Cerberus over Liara anyday. I like TIM. He gets **** done, and quickly when it matters. He cuts through the bs and gets it done. He wants humanity to be holding their own, because the other races refuse to co-operate with us and dont do anything. Why is he always so bad?

Besides, Liara probably sucks as an info broker, the base isnt all there is to it.

[Sursion]

The Illusive Man didn't send Shepard the location, some random tech guys at Cerberus did.