72 réponses à ce sujet

[baller7345]

termokanden wrote...
In any case, Cryo Blast certainly needs a buff.

What kind of buff do you have in mind.  I would be fine with just increasing its radiu to that of say the avalanche or something similar.  I'm probably one of the biggest cryo blast fans here and use it a ton in any engineer playthrough so I'm biased toward the power, and because of that I tend to see it through rose colored glasses.

Anyway I would like to know what you think an acceptable buff would be  because as it is currently I already am able to set up 2-6 people freezes so doing anything other than making the blast bigger would seem overkill to me.

[PsyrenY]

If it could slow down protected enemies (particularly their rate of fire) it would be more useful. Right now it does nothing to them, making it a waste of time in Insanity.

[sinosleep]

Optimystic_X wrote...

If it could slow down protected enemies (particularly their rate of fire) it would be more useful. Right now it does nothing to them, making it a waste of time in Insanity.

I find it's still useful for 1.) robots on health since incineration is useless against them and overloads on health provide a shorter stun and 2.) enemies with large amounts of health like krogan or klixen that I know another incineration blast isn't going to kill them in one shot. Otherwise, yeah, standard mobs I tend to just flash fry with incineratin blast.

[OniGanon]

The problem with Cryo Blast is it's balanced around being aoe by default, but as a power that only works on defenseless enemies, having that small aoe isn't so valuable. I would rather it just be single target and then reduce cooldown to 3s.

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...
CC. I thought you said tech wasn't about CC. You said tech was about summoning/support earlier. Only drone supports this statement. The "support" is the same kind of deal you get with biotic powers, and drone is basically just CC. It's not much of a real combat pet like you see in other games.

I did. What I didn't say is that there is some holy rule that techs cannot be used to CC. They don't specialise in it. Obviously if you're softening an opponent up then there is an element of CC by definition, but it isn't the same stopping them in their tracks or physically moving them to different parts of the battlefield - which is what biotics are all about.

These are secondary effects on a damage power, and biotic powers have them too. Warp stops regen, Reave stuns organics. They both work against armor and barriers, just like tech has powers against shields and armor.

Warp stops regen and detonates biotics. It's the outlier in biotics and even then, has no crowd control or AoE options. Powers like Throw, Pull etc have no secondary abilities whatsoever. Trying to claim that this is in any way similar to stuff like Overload's catalogue of extra abilities or Incinerate's damage/AoE option/anti-regen/CC aspect only shows that you're not looking at this in an impartial fashion.

As for Reave... please. It's a bonus power. Trying to use Reave to illustrate the effectiveness of biotics is fallacious, as it is about as representative of biotics as the GPS is of shotguns.
 

Exactly like Pull. Except Pull has a lower cooldown, sets up Warp explosions and works instantly.

Termokanden, if you're going to insist in rigidly comparing power vs power then ultimately, there is no debate to be had, as you'll end up with such a skewed result that it can say anything you like. Biotics are meant to be used together. If Pull had a longer cooldown it would severly affect it's use in combo'ing.

I'm not saying Cryo is evenly matched with Pull - all I'm saying is that you're directly comparing powers from two totally different schools and expecting your comparison to mean something. The engineer and the Adept aren't supposed to be simply two different flavours of the same class, so expecting them to have equal levels of CC is completely futile.

No, that is the very definition of CC, which you claim tech is not about.

Again, I'm not responsible for your interpretation of what I've said. I should have thought what I originally stated was straight forward enough to avoid this bizarre assertion that Engi's 'can't CC'. I mean, if I said Adepts weren't about combat, would you take that to mean that they don't carry any guns?

I still firmly believe tech powers have the same role as biotic powers.

What you believe is up to you, Termo. All I'm saying is that tech powers were never that in ME1, they clearly aren't intended to be in ME2, the assertion techs and biotics are supposed to work the same way has no basis in anything the devs have said so far....

In other words, you've got as much reason to 'firmly beleive' this as you have to think the moon is made of green cheese. But as I say, what you choose to believe is up to you.

Speaking of blatantly false, say hi to Dominate. All the anti-defense stuff, adepts have that too. As for added damage, there's the ragdoll damage increase.

Yeah, another bonus power available to any class in the game that functions nothing like most biotic powers.

I'm beginning to detect a pattern, here. You seem to be calling for rebalancing of class powers on the basis that some bonus powers are available. I'm afraid that doesn't make any sense.

They are quite similar I think, but Overload does have 2 secondary effects. It doesn't compare in any way to Warp explosions though. Remember, I'm not saying all the tech powers are underpowered.

Why would Overload compare to warp explosions? Are you saying that because one tech power is better than a combo of two biotic powers, it's evidence of imbalance? Please....

I'm trying to say that Tech Armor has a large cooldown to balance it. Having every cooldown reduced means they are better power spammers than adepts/engineers.

And as I said, Sentinels are dependant upon it because it's central to their abilities as a class. The long cooldown is *exactly* the same as other shielding powers, but unlike them, playing without tech armour isn't optional. At least, it isn't optional if you expect to play the class to it's potential.

Biotic powers also tend to have multiple effects but anyway. I very much doubt it would break balance. But it would make tech a little cooler and perhaps make it more fun to play an engineer.

My point is that techs have a lot more. Most tech powers can be used in widely varying situations and inflict various debuffs and issues on a target - Overload being the best example of this. Those that don't tend to function in dramatically different ways to most powers, such as Hacking or Drone, and carry with it their own benefits.

In contrast, biotics have relatively limited applications but tend to be significantly stronger in those applications. Warp is never going to compete with Incinerate for sheer capability but when used in combination with Pull, you get more worth than the sum of the two powers.

That is the difference, termo. If you don't like the place tech powers have, don't play a tech class.

In any case, Cryo Blast certainly needs a buff.

It only 'needs a buff' because you say it does. You haven't really given a legitimate reason why beyond this opinion you have that techs and biotics are the same thing.

For what it's worth, I have my own suspicions about Cryo - but ultimately, it's a tech power for doing something that isn't really in the tech specialisation. It's not really surprising that it isn't as good as an equivalent power in a different school. I mean, hell, look at Concussive shot - Combat's CC power. If anything, that needs a buff.

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

For what it's worth, I have my own suspicions about Cryo - but ultimately, it's a tech power for doing something that isn't really in the tech specialisation. It's not really surprising that it isn't as good as an equivalent power in a different school. I mean, hell, look at Concussive shot - Combat's CC power. If anything, that needs a buff.

I agree, Cryo is fine.

CS sucks, but only Soldier has it so it is a moot point

[JaegerBane]

OniGanon wrote...

The problem with Cryo Blast is it's balanced around being aoe by default, but as a power that only works on defenseless enemies, having that small aoe isn't so valuable. I would rather it just be single target and then reduce cooldown to 3s.

Hmmm. Methinks that's part of the reason for Shockwave's long cooldown.

[Justicar]

People think Drones are underpowered?



Bring Tali and Legion along. Super Drones FTW.

[termokanden]

[quote]JaegerBane wrote...

I did. What I didn't say is that there is some holy rule that techs cannot be used to CC. They don't specialise in it. Obviously if you're softening an opponent up then there is an element of CC by definition, but it isn't the same stopping them in their tracks or physically moving them to different parts of the battlefield - which is what biotics are all about.[/quote]

Cryo Blast and drone are obviously CC. Some of the extra effects you mention as a bonus of tech powers are also CC. In fact the strength of an engineer is CC. Sure they can destroy shields and armor too, but the CC is what makes them powerful.

[quote]
Warp stops regen and detonates biotics. It's the outlier in biotics and even then, has no crowd control or AoE options. Powers like Throw, Pull etc have no secondary abilities whatsoever. Trying to claim that this is in any way similar to stuff like Overload's catalogue of extra abilities or Incinerate's damage/AoE option/anti-regen/CC aspect only shows that you're not looking at this in an impartial fashion.[/quote]

I'm not claiming it's the same. Obviously they didn't mean for biotics to have the exact same effects as tech powers. It's clear to me that the goal is that you can weaken and CC with both, and that they complement each other well. You're claiming they have completely different roles. I don't think so.




[quote]As for Reave... please. It's a bonus power. Trying to use Reave to illustrate the effectiveness of biotics is fallacious, as it is about as representative of biotics as the GPS is of shotguns.[/quote]

That's your opinion and one I don't share. Besides, you have to pay extra for the GPS, but Reave is included in the basic game. People who care about these comparisons are all using bonus powers, so don't pretend it's something that doesn't exist.




[quote]I'm not saying Cryo is evenly matched with Pull - all I'm saying is that you're directly comparing powers from two totally different schools and expecting your comparison to mean something. The engineer and the Adept aren't supposed to be simply two different flavours of the same class, so expecting them to have equal levels of CC is completely futile. [/quote]

They compete for the same global cooldown though. That's why I think the comparison is quite fair.

I believe Cryo Blast is not good enough. You don't. That's fine, let's not argue too much about it 

[quote][quote]
No, that is the very definition of CC, which you claim tech is not about.
[/quote]

Again, I'm not responsible for your interpretation of what I've said.[/quote]
 
Your argument is that tech powers specialize in weakening and summoning. Then you define hacking to be a "weakening" power. This is what I don't agree with.

[quote][quote]
I still firmly believe tech powers have the same role as biotic powers.
[/quote]

What you believe is up to you, Termo. All I'm saying is that tech powers were never that in ME1, they clearly aren't intended to be in ME2, the assertion techs and biotics are supposed to work the same way has no basis in anything the devs have said so far....

In other words, you've got as much reason to 'firmly beleive' this as you have to think the moon is made of green cheese. But as I say, what you choose to believe is up to you.[/quote]

Please keep it civil.

[quote][quote]
Speaking of blatantly false, say hi to Dominate. All the anti-defense stuff, adepts have that too. As for added damage, there's the ragdoll damage increase.
[/quote]

Yeah, another bonus power available to any class in the game that functions nothing like most biotic powers. [/quote]
We're talking about tech vs biotics aren't we? Dominate is exactly the biotics version of AI Hacking. What does it matter that other biotic powers don't function the same? Do other tech powers function the same as AI Hacking?




[quote]I'm beginning to detect a pattern, here. You seem to be calling for rebalancing of class powers on the basis that some bonus powers are available. I'm afraid that doesn't make any sense.[/quote]

No that's not what I mean. We just got into a weird discussion about what tech and biotics are about. I just think tech is a bit too boring compared to biotics. Nothing that warrants a huge buff. I could be wrong about this, but it seems like a lot of people prefer biotics for this very reason, and that's a bit of a shame.

And my other point is that Cryo Blast could easily be buffed to 3 second cooldown and instant freezing.

The third point is that I don't see why adepts and engineers can't have a 30% cooldown reduction like the one sentinels have.

[quote]
Why would Overload compare to warp explosions? Are you saying that because one tech power is better than a combo of two biotic powers, it's evidence of imbalance? Please....[/quote]
No that's not what I'm saying. You're claiming that tech powers have more effects than biotics. But biotics have the effect that you can set up warp explosions (and they also have other secondary effects). Anyway, read what I wrote above about what I actually wanted to say with all this. We're getting completely away from that.

[quote]
And as I said, Sentinels are dependant upon it because it's central to their abilities as a class. The long cooldown is *exactly* the same as other shielding powers, but unlike them, playing without tech armour isn't optional. At least, it isn't optional if you expect to play the class to it's potential.[/quote]
We don't disagree on that.

[quote][quote]
Biotic powers also tend to have multiple effects but anyway. I very much doubt it would break balance. But it would make tech a little cooler and perhaps make it more fun to play an engineer.
[/quote]

My point is that techs have a lot more. Most tech powers can be used in widely varying situations and inflict various debuffs and issues on a target - Overload being the best example of this. Those that don't tend to function in dramatically different ways to most powers, such as Hacking or Drone, and carry with it their own benefits.[/quote]

Overload has a bunch of relatively pointless little secondary effects like increased explosive damage from explosive crates and weapon overheating. It's cool, but somehow tech powers are just not as cool as biotics. It's not really that much about balance, just about how interesting the classes are to play. It seems pretty clear to me from reading these forums that tech powers are missing something. I suggest having some sort of synergy like the warp explosions, but of course not the same thing.




[quote]In contrast, biotics have relatively limited applications but tend to be significantly stronger in those applications.[/quote]
I wouldn't say they have more limited applications. They don't function exactly the same, but they are not more limited just because Overload has the most secondary effects. 




[quote]Warp is never going to compete with Incinerate for sheer capability but when used in combination with Pull, you get more worth than the sum of the two powers. [/quote]

Warp works on barriers, armor and health. Incinerate works on armor and health. I think Warp can compete. But yeah, of course Warp explosions make it even better.

[quote]
That is the difference, termo. If you don't like the place tech powers have, don't play a tech class.[/quote]
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate tech powers. My engineer playthrough was very fun, mostly due to drone being so powerful. I still have ideas for improvements though, but there really aren't any major balance issues.

[quote][quote]

In any case, Cryo Blast certainly needs a buff.[/quote]

It only 'needs a buff' because you say it does. You haven't really given a legitimate reason why beyond this opinion you have that techs and biotics are the same thing. [/quote]

Here's my reasoning. Everything it does is done better by Pull except for one thing: When you don't have the 4 point version, it has a radius of effect where Pull only hits one target. But the radius is tiny.

Both CC a target without defenses. Pull works instantly, Cryo doesn't. Pull has a longer duration. Pull has a shorter cooldown. Pull sets up Warp explosions. Both give a 100% damage taken debuff.

No it doesn't NEED to be buffed. But it sure would help. There's really no good reason it has to be so much worse than Pull. That comparison is very valid and relevant by the way, because in essence the two powers do the same thing and compete for the same cooldown.

What I suggest is just setting its cooldown to 3 seconds and the freezing to the same duration. Doesn't break any balance, just makes Cryo competetive.

[quote]For what it's worth, I have my own suspicions about Cryo - but ultimately, it's a tech power for doing something that isn't really in the tech specialisation. It's not really surprising that it isn't as good as an equivalent power in a different school. I mean, hell, look at Concussive shot - Combat's CC power. If anything, that needs a buff.
[/quote]
Yes Concussive Shot needs a buff. Even if it got one though, I'm not sure soldiers would be using it.

Modifié par termokanden, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:14 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

Cryo Blast and drone are obviously CC. <snip>

In the interests of keeping the giant wall of quoting doom down to a manageable size, I'll had to cut a lot out

Ultimately, though, I think the issue comes down to what techs and biotics are percieved to be. As I said before (and my apologies if it came across as uncivil, it was literally intended just as a statement), the assertion that techs and biotics are supposed to do the same thing in different colours just doesn't gel with everything we've seen so far. 

In both games, every bit of ME media we've seen and dev commentary, the message sent across is that techs are very much supposed to be indirect, weakening powers in comparison to flashy physics effects and explosions. It's analogous to the split between Arcane and Divine magic in D&D.

Hence, I don't think I'm stretching logic by calling into question the assertion that biotics and techs are meant for the same thing. And assuming they aren't, it's small wonder cryo isn't quite as effective as Pull. It's for similar reasons why Warp isn't effective as Incinerate.

The issue I had with bonus powers and 'tech vs biotic' comparisons is that this debate is about class abilities. Bonus powers can be had by anyone and, beyond what their description says, don't really function in synergy with other powers of their respective schools. I mean, neither Reave or Dominate function properly with Warp. Bonus powers are not restricted to any class and don't generally interact well with other powers of their respective school - hence, it doesn't make sense to compare them to class abilities.

Obviously this all depends on whether your interpretation of what tech abilities do matches that of the devs. And to be fair, there isn't really any reason to believe the devs intended techs to work the same as biotics.

[termokanden]

I don't remember reading a clear official statement about class roles. Anyway I've posted my opinions a few times by now, so no need to repeat it any further.

[Father Alvito]

If you've gotten surrounded by enemies and you have red health as an Engineer, you're playing it wrong. You should always fight at maximum distance and use the Drone primarily to prevent the enemy from closing on your position.

You die on Insanity when your position gets overrun, which means that there are two ways to win. One is to put out enough damage to kill your enemies before they close, and the other is to prevent the enemy from closing. The Drone is the best skill in the game at keeping the enemy at arm's length. By putting the Drone behind your adversaries, you can repeatedly exploit the AI and get it to surrender ground it had already taken. And this works on (almost) any enemy except the final boss.  Stasis seems to have a few more exceptions.

If you're getting overrun as an Engineer, three things could be going wrong. You may be setting up in bad spots. As an Engineer, you have to micro your squad's positioning. Virtually every fight has a quality cover situation, but it can be non-obvious. You often want to set up well behind where a fight triggers.  Do not advance until the enemy is wiped out.

You also may be picking the wrong targets. Anything that aggressively closes or charges you has to get locked down and taken out before reinforcements advance. If confronted with a strong target and a weak target, generally you want to lock down the strong target and kill the weak one first.

If you're making good decisions but still are getting overrun, then you need to reconfigure your squadmates. Odds are that you aren't taking the right ones, or you have set up their powers poorly. You almost always want to have a squadmate with a squad ammo power with you, and you need some debuffs. I find that the standard Grunt and Miranda team works well for the Engineer. Grunt holds the line, provides squad Incendiary and cleans up low targets while Miranda strips barriers and helps out with armor and shields.  Other quality squad combinations exist.

Final point: you really shouldn't be popping out of cover often as an Engineer. Making Drones is your job. Sneak in an Incinerate or bonus debuff if the Drone will survive past the cooldown.  Micro squad power usage; you'll have the time.  Don't bother shooting at range without the Locust or the Viper; the Engineer has terrible synergy with the SMGs in the basic game.

Engineer is unpopular primarily because it requires you to unlearn everything you learned playing a combat-oriented class. Without crowd control abilities, you have to kill fast on Insanity. Doing that demands tactics that get Engineers killed. Fights take a bit longer as an Engineer, but if you play properly you will rarely, if ever, die. The result is that an Insanity playthrough is as quick or quicker in real time than other classes, despite the slow killing speed.

Modifié par Father Alvito, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:32 .

[curly haired boy]

personally i took neural shock as my engineer's bonus power. no travel time, instant incap (none of cyro's slow freeze (which can still let a krogan fire off that last deadly shot), and out of commish for a longer time.



not to mention standard 3 second cooldown pairs it perfectly with the drone.

[coinop25]

Getting back to the question that spawned this thread:



I played a couple DLC missions with my Engineer (on Hardcore), dropping Armor Piercing Ammo for Geth Shield Boost, and I found it a ton more fun that way. It recharges pretty darn fast, and I found that the glowing shield (and thus the damage bonus) held up for a very long time. I wasn't really using my gun for damage enough to make an ammo power useful anyway, at least not without something else to recharge my shields frequently enough that I wouldn't run out of med kits...

[Radahldo]

Father Alvito wrote...

snip

I'm not sure whether you are speaking generally or addressing me,but, I was not having a  problem being overrun. I asked, out of a more distant curiosity--rather than frustration-- about the current and past roles of the class... why it lacked a get out of jail free card, so to say.

The thread has been helpful in answering that for me.

Curly haired boy wrote...

personally i took neural shock as my engineer's bonus power. no travel time, instant incap (none of cyro's slow freeze (which can still let a krogan fire off that last deadly shot), and out of commish for a longer time.



not to mention standard 3 second cooldown pairs it perfectly with the drone.

Yes, I enjoy neural shock a lot; great synergy with the drone.    A  Shotgun Engineer with Neural Shockwave  has been my most enjoyable playthrough.

Modifié par Radahldo, 16 septembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[Father Alvito]

Radahldo wrote...

I'm not sure whether you are speaking generally or addressing me,but, I was not having a  problem being overrun. I asked, out of a more distant curiosity--rather than frustration-- about the current and past roles of the class... why it lacked a get out of jail free card, so to say.

Speaking generally.  If you didn't fully understand the function of the Drone and how it can be used as damage mitigation, that implied that you didn't understand the basic game mechanics that drive Insanity gameplay.  So I figured I'd address that.

Your comment that you've been running a NS/Shotgun Engineer explains a lot.  You can play Engineer that way; plenty of people have had success with it.  I believe it's suboptimal, as a Sentinel has a better general skill set for that approach.  You get a more flexible set of debuffs, a class skill that better suits close quarters fighting and the ability to generate Warp Explosions if you bring Samara, Jack or Jacob along.  (I also think that Throw is a much better 1 pointer than Cryo Blast, especially if using NS.  YMMV.)

The advantage of the Drone for NS/Shotgun is that the Drone is absurdly overpowered in a number of difficult fights.  The ability to lock down Harbinger while you take out his minions almost trivializes Collector fights, and lone bosses (eg: YMIR, Shadow Broker) are jokes.  Only Praetorians remain a real solo threat, but you can always beat them even without party support if you use cover right.  But I'd still argue that Tech Armor is the better all-rounder if you like to pop out of cover to end fights quickly.  For a shotgunner, Tech Armor is always very good, where the Drone is sometimes meh and sometimes fabulous.

The thread has been helpful in answering that for me.

Glad to hear it.

Modifié par Father Alvito, 16 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

I don't remember reading a clear official statement about class roles. Anyway I've posted my opinions a few times by now, so no need to repeat it any further.

I'm not sure what you'd define as 'clear official' but Christina Norman made it pretty clear what her intention was behind the class in the Engineer Reveal video.

Compare what she says about the Engy to what she says about the Adept. It's fairly clear that, despite both being casters, they're intended to function in very different ways.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 17 septembre 2010 - 03:33 .

[OniGanon]

In ME1, the Engineer could stop a crowd of enemies from firing weapons and prevent them from using their tech and biotic abilities.



In ME1, an Adept could stop a crowd of enemies from firing their weapons and prevent them from using any abilities at all including Immunity, simultaneously with a single ability, while also taking away their ability to move around.



Debuffing the enemy just isn't good enough if it doesn't work through protection, because stuff like making weapons overheat pales in comparison to making the enemy completely unable to do anything with a simple Pull.



Stuff like Drone and AI Hack are more where the Engineer should focus IMO. Not simply disabling enemy weapons, but turning those weapons against them. That's how you get crowd control and damage on par with the likes of Pull Field and Warp explosions without making pale copies of them. Dominate and Flash Grenade (Damping 2.0) should have been Tech powers.

[Athenau]

There are sooo many interesting things Bioware could do we with the drone in ME3. How about an optical camo system so it can spy on enemies or get into position more easily? How about the ability to manually trigger the detonation? How about the ability to mark a target for indirect fire weapons (mortars, missiles, etc) or a debuff that increases weapon damage? How about the ability to channel your abilities through the drone, so you could send your drone around the corner and have it cast an incinerate?

The possibilities are endless. Drone is a great skill right now, but the implementation is pretty boring, IMO.

Modifié par Athenau, 17 septembre 2010 - 11:10 .

[termokanden]

I like the idea of making Flashbang Grenade a tech power. It would be somewhat overpowered though.

Modifié par termokanden, 18 septembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

I like the idea of making Flashbang Grenade a tech power. It would be somewhat overpowered though.

Personally I think they should have just done what they did with Stasis and just brought Damping back as a tech bonus power. I'm not sure it's a good idea to start making grenades as non-combat powers.

[Phaelducan]

The Drone just doesn't seem as "cool" as some of the other unique powers. Yeah, it works, but just seems to lack mojo.



If you look at Charge, Cloak, and Tech Armor... those are really cool and essentially unique powers that no one else gets. Drone? Meh. It's effective... but boring.

[termokanden]

JaegerBane wrote...

termokanden wrote...

I like the idea of making Flashbang Grenade a tech power. It would be somewhat overpowered though.

Personally I think they should have just done what they did with Stasis and just brought Damping back as a tech bonus power. I'm not sure it's a good idea to start making grenades as non-combat powers.

Flashbang Grenade seems very tech-y to me. All it needs for Insanity is the duration buff. I also think it's more fun and useful than a single-target damping or one of those half-hearted 3m AoEs ever could be.

In any case I think combat powers suffer a bit because you can't upgrade them, so I don't like them making new bonus combat powers.

There are insane combat powers like Adrenaline Rush, sure, but that's also a class-specific skill. Nobody should be able to get something like that as a bonus power