32 réponses à ce sujet

[Sulhee]

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not singling out any particular server (whichever one this was) or users.  You can find a similar situation on pretty much any server you look at, it seems.


Now just look at the serverscape in the screenshot above, and now imagine yourself creating a 1st level PC just starting out.

Ack!  Doesn't sound like a very fun prospect to me (more like boring), hardcore RP server or not.  In fact it feels like work as you struggle to get some PC high enough level to reasonably interact with and travel alongside any other character at all.  Not only that, but the players who will be most discouraged by this are the ones least concerned with gaining levels quickly and more concerned with roleplaying quality, so (theoretically) this may skew your player base away from hardcore RP.

So anyway, I'm mainly posting this for a reason: to ask whether there are any servers left out there (crazy slim odds I know) that try to address this problem reasonably well, and if not, what types of solutions can anyone here reading think of to remove such a barrier to entry?

[FR Mulm]

Many servers when you log in will have a long time player or two or three log out as a high level and will then log in WITH a different PC to meet you.



I know FRC does this. Tales of the Silver Marches. And Savage Frontier will as well. It is note worthy though that they all have DMs from the same server and I would say it is something that when or if I ever finish my own corner of Toril that I too will do.

[Lightfoot8]

You may find this post of interest from the WSI server. 

It was posted by a new person to the server, and says that they where supprised when players on the server created new Charcters in order to be able to RP with them. 


http://jenshumate.co...opic.php?t=2841

[Sulhee]

Mulm - that does help, but still, it'd be preferable to have 4-5 such PCs to interact with (more of a DMed campaign style feel).

[Sulhee]

I dunno, I guess my thing is that I'm just not very interested in the whole leveling/advancement thing beyond some small amount of growth or equipment gains here and there. Actually now that I think about it, most of the DMed campaigns I've been on have had very little of either really. Unfortunately the NWC campaign selection nowadays is getting kind of sparse!

[Eradrain]

It's certainly an issue, but it's not an RP issue, and I think it's a bit fallacious to make it out as one.

A huge level discrepancy between characters means you're locked out of the following:

1. Meaningful, PvE (dungeons) where all players contribute evenly, and...
2. PvP.

You can RP with someone just fine if they're incomprehensibly higher level than you. Maybe not the way you might want to RP with them, maybe if you're (like me) someone who prefers playing powerful characters then you're not going to get that fix. But you can still RP with them.

And a half-clever DM can easily put together a campaign that has no combat at all and is still quite fun and rewards player cleverness, and not character level. In an environment like that, a level 1 can easily outperform a level 25.

Worst case scenario, a level 25 could still go with you into a lowbie dungeon, it would just mean that you'd have a much easier time of it.

....Though, to be honest, how many servers still start players out at level 1? Every one I've tried in the past few years has started you in the 2-5 range.

Though I think your picture is a bit misleading, since you're talking (If I understand you rightly) about RP servers, but that's clearly not an RP server's player screen - "Count Vampirika"?  "Thunders Pure Massacre"?  "Cyber Lord"?  Plus all those builds with 1 level in Shadowdancer.  Most RP servers ban those kinds of names and builds.

Modifié par Eradrain, 13 septembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Haha...Sulhee is kind of right there.

However...many servers who see themselves as "really" hardcore roleplay servers actually have a lot lower maximum level. If say level 10 is the maximum level you can get this problem is pretty much eliminated altogether.

Escape from Underdark, City of Arabel, Narfell and Shores of Winter has this.

Personally I think theese servers have another problem. They are too much RP for me. It has gotten to a point where XP and progression doesn't matter at all which I think is wrong and is an extreme.

I would really like to be in the middle.

Our server Genesis Nordock tries to do that actually. One thing however. Our server used to actually have theese restrictions that you talk about. Because of the former admin team listening too much to the players theese systems that where actually already in place where removed.

Ok...one bad thing about actually putting systems like this in place is that if you aren't really a perfectionist when it comes to writing down all the changes and all the implications players will get rightfully frustrated.

Another thing which happend to us was that most of theese inhibiting systems where removed but the information was not removed. That can also frustrate players. Anyway...we have most of the unnecessary and faulty information removed by now but this just shows that one have to think twice before putting "rules" in place that differ from the standard behaviour of the game.

I know there are people around here that love to script. Sometimes they are not my friends though... Just because you CAN script something doesn't mean you have to.

Personally I am against changing how the game works for reasons that I already explained.

That I am also against powebuilding and just think that the prestigeclasses are dumb doesn't go hand in hand.

If I ever make a new server I would probably have max level at 30 and just removing all the prestigeclasses (this can be done somewhat painlessly). Also probably wouldn't have any subraces. At least not subraces that are overpowered which seems to be the reason most of theese systems where made (to allow players to make more powerful builds that is...which is at least not my intention when adding subraces to my server).

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Eagles Talon]

Interesting discussion.



In "The North" most, if not all, of our players do have multiple characters of different levels. Not just staff either. DM's post for events in a certain level range. This can be from newbie characters into Epic level characters.



I agree, RP does not depend on level in many cases. But my definition of RP does not mean sitting around talking. I like to act out my character on the playing field, weather it be dungeons or wilderness, city or tavern. Level can in many of these cases be a factor. The RP comes by "playing your character" during regular adventuring. DM's can certainly make a difference for a mismatched level party. But smart players can do the same thing. It's all in the attitude of the server and the players. The one pictured above certainly does not seem to be RP or for that matter fantasy based at all. Sounds like an arena or PvP server.



My 2 cents.

[ehye_khandee]

Many servers have empty hours. I tell everyone who will listen, if you find a server that looks interesting to you, log in regardless of how many may be logged in already. MOST PEOPLE ARE FOLLOWERS, so, bold adventurer, GO LEAD! Most often, once one logs in, there is soon more. You can just never know how many eyeballs are resting on the same ZERO you are, so go play and quit agonizing over the player roster of the moment.



Our server allows PCs to start at any level from 1st to 4th, even 5th if they 'work a little'. We have scripted minor miracles here, if you have not seen it, you should at least log in and run the tutorial area (aka Noob U.) to see what this engine is capable of - all done with an eye for NO LAG, NO CRASH, NO RESET needed.



We do actively promote the server and her features. We get many new players each month (more than 50 new per month atm). Our PLAYERS do tend to re-log with PCs of appropriate level to others when overall numbers are low, so PARTY play is more enjoyable too.



In short, JUMP IN the RP is fine!

[Shadooow]

Thats your problem if you can't play without someone on the same level (who can be miles aways) and don't start playing new PW because of it. If all peoples had the same issue, server would be empty. But they are not fortunately. IMO, good thing you don't log in, at least Dungeon Masters don't have to bother with you.

(nothing personal, although it can sound like that)

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:12 .

[Drakantus]

I have noticed the same thing, although I come from the opposite side of the coin- while I enjoy the option to RP, I am something of a powergamer and I enjoy advancement and challenging content. Yet on the "pw action" servers I have played on even the most popular servers with 16+ players online most of the time it's very hard to ever group with anyone because with the level cap being set at 40 and grouping restricted to a 3-4 level range there just isn't anyone to group with.



I don't get it, I'd think that the player who want the massive treadmill experience would be playing a game like world of warcraft or final fantasy, NWN modules take the other niche- which is games with limited advancement and small level ranges, where you might not advance as much in the end but you can at least jump in and play right away with other players.

[Jenna WSI]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

You may find this post of interest from the WSI server. 

It was posted by a new person to the server, and says that they where supprised when players on the server created new Charcters in order to be able to RP with them. 


http://jenshumate.co...opic.php?t=2841

Yep! Always a good way to get interaction. Also you should check the level separation for grouping together. Sometimes it gives you enough breathing room to party with higher pcs and not be alone.

Also, is it bad that I laughed like crazy at the login names, and initially thought your complaint was the non-serious pc names?

[Dourtimes]

One of the things that puts me off PWs - and thus far I haven't actually played any - is the knowledge demanded of players. I've been trying to build the courage to have a bash at one of the DM led, story based servers, but looking at the sheer wealth of back story on some of the websites is highly intimidating for a total newbie such as myself. I'd be terribly worried that I'd say the wrong thing - something out of character. I don't really have any history with role-playing outside of the multiple choices raised in certain single player CRPGs, so this kind of dedication to knowledge and character seems, well, like I said, it's intimidating.



Oh, and I'm new here. Had NWN for ages, played a bit of the original and campaign didn't think much of it. A few months ago I reinstalled it as part of a massive binge on CRPGs and fell in love with the incredible, enduring community behind it, who have been responsible for so many hours of amazing free content. I don't think I've ever encountered a game that belongs more to the community surrounding it than the developers that made it, but in my opinion, NWN is that game.



So, er, hi!

[Dreggie]

Dourtimes wrote...

One of the things that puts me off PWs - and thus far I haven't actually played any - is the knowledge demanded of players. I've been trying to build the courage to have a bash at one of the DM led, story based servers, but looking at the sheer wealth of back story on some of the websites is highly intimidating for a total newbie such as myself. I'd be terribly worried that I'd say the wrong thing - something out of character. I don't really have any history with role-playing outside of the multiple choices raised in certain single player CRPGs, so this kind of dedication to knowledge and character seems, well, like I said, it's intimidating.

While it can be intimidating, most of the servers with that have it up primarily as reference material as you need/want it, and as a source of information for those that live and breathe that stuff.   The vast majority around are quite accomodating to people who have no clue about the region or setting, and most are very good with people new to the roleplay practices of a NWN PW.   I would suggest just giving a few a try, just jump right in, if you don't like the response you get from it, then there's always others, (and any server that responds rudely and unhelpful to you probably isn't worth your time.)

Modifié par Dreggie, 13 septembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Drewskie]

The player list is an abomination. Obviously, they added it so you can see if buddies are on, but it shouldn't reveal class make-up and levels as it does.

[Sulhee]

Okay, admittedly I didn't check the names (only the level ranges) so I guess even though it was in the "RP" section maybe it wasn't so much "RP".  But I'd still make the point that I feel this illustrates a problem that also extends to almost all RP servers that I've seen in past years (I'm possibly coming off a break from the game).


SuperFly: No offense intended at all, but it doesn't sound like we're in the same market for RP server designs.  I  don't disagree with most of what you've said but it's just not what I'm looking for.  (I can't stand epic level stuff at all, to start! )


"ShaDoOoW": I'm sorry but making a stupid, rude comment (as you have done here before in the past) and then saying "no offense" doesn't work buddy.  You have no idea what you're talking about.


ehye_khandee: I'll check your server out some time.  I'd prefer a server where my PC's adventuring and combat time is fully compatible with all other PCs' "adventure time" on the server, so I'm not sure about my prospects, but it can't hurt to try I guess. 


Drakantus: Good point, MMOs do the level treadmill thing MUCH better than NWN does so it is a little 'curious' that so many in NWN look for it.


Jenna WSI:  You're right - the names are hilarious!  But I thought I was looking at an RP server, honest!


Eradrain: I might find it hard to disagree more.  It's definitely a major RP inhibiting issue!  I could write an essay explaining why.  This: "if you're (like me) someone who prefers playing powerful characters"  explains a lot to me about why you don't see a problem.  I don't prefer that, but I don't prefer playing weak characters either given the choice.

You think I don't realize that a level 1 can interact with a level 20?    Rather than taking the happy path, think for a second about all the things they can't do.  It's a very, very long list when you think about the things players spend the majority of their time doing on a server.  Like Eagles pointed out, "roleplay" doesn't exclusively occur sitting in a safe non-pvp tavern or town area.  On most servers you can't be a <5th level and still fully participate in the entire world environment and DMed events.  Of course the problem goes beyond just a RP issue, true, but that just makes it a larger problem.

1. Meaningful, PvE (dungeons) where all players contribute evenly, and...
2. PvP.
Semantics aside that's at least "half" the game, even on a roleplay server.

You're also missing something that you're locked out of: xx% of the server's areas, depending on how many areas are designed for higher level characters.  (Also in reverse, high level PCs don't have much use for low level areas.)  I don't need to play a "powerful" character, but like most people I do prefer an on-par with their surroundings (PC and NPC) character.

I've heard what you say a million times, "a clever DM can compensate".  True perhaps (accidents happen), but a DM that doesn't even need to worry about such things is going to perform that much better than one that does.  Same goes for players - personally I wouldn't want to endlessly create new characters just to join new players, perpetually exploring and being stuck to the same 20 low-level areas in a server because the PC will be killed if they go anywhere else.  Yeah, you can do this to compensate for this level range problem, but I don't think it's the answer I'm looking for.

You got me on the screencap, I didn't check names so it's a bad example.  I took it at a weird time so I probably had slimmer pickings than usual... I was in the RP section though... er, I think?  


I guess it's safe to say that there isn't any simple solution.  Either you design for a very limited range of levels, or your DMs and players need to put out the extra effort to ensure that the level range isn't a deal breaker.

[Jenna WSI]

One of the ways WSI tries to fix this issue is to make leveling pretty easy, for an rp server. So it doesn't half a year to get into epic levels, if you want to put the effort into it. Players can also ask for xp to be removed, if the like to stay lower level for rp reasons.



Also, that was totally the Social section, c'mon. >.<

[Lightfoot8]

There is alwaus EFU a RP server where PC are lucky to survive past level 6. It is heavy RP with lots of players. Of cource they now hide the player list to advoid spoliers.

[Shadooow]

Sulhee wrote...

"ShaDoOoW": I'm sorry but making a stupid, rude comment (as you have done here before in the past) and then saying "no offense" doesn't work buddy.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

Someone, especially admin of that server which (maybe) put large effort to make the life of new players easier even if nobody is there could saw your comment "stupid and rude" too. I am server admin so I know what I am talking about.

Thats what I wanted to show you with my post. OK?

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 14 septembre 2010 - 02:09 .

[Eradrain]

I guess it's safe to say that there isn't any simple solution.  Either you design for a very limited range of levels, or your DMs and players need to put out the extra effort to ensure that the level range isn't a deal breaker.

Pretty much this.

And that is why the tenor of my post was so very   "The Glass is Half Full."

Because there's no simple solution, so one might as well try and see the bright side.

[Jenna WSI]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Sulhee wrote...

"ShaDoOoW": I'm sorry but making a stupid, rude comment (as you have done here before in the past) and then saying "no offense" doesn't work buddy.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

Someone, especially admin of that server which (maybe) put large effort to make the life of new players easier even if nobody is there could saw your comment "stupid and rude" too. I am server admin so I know what I am talking about.

Thats what I wanted to show you with my post. OK?

If he was rude, he would have named the server, which didn't happen because it wasn't a personal attack. Just because a builder put work into it doesn't mean it's flawless or should be treated as such. No world is perfect.

[SuperFly_2000]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

There is alwaus EFU a RP server where PC are lucky to survive past level 6. It is heavy RP with lots of players. Of cource they now hide the player list to advoid spoliers.

Unfortunately they removed the party system also...so you can't join party with other people...you kind of have to "imagine" that you are in a party instead.

Removing the list is also daft. It is usually powergamers who wants to hide their build.

If someone would have choosen to metagame the information that was in that list that is his own choice.

For me...it just helps finding a buddy to play with....which after all...is what roleplaying is all about...

[FR Mulm]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Lightfoot8 wrote...

There is alwaus EFU a RP server where PC are lucky to survive past level 6. It is heavy RP with lots of players. Of cource they now hide the player list to advoid spoliers.

Unfortunately they removed the party system also...so you can't join party with other people...you kind of have to "imagine" that you are in a party instead.

Removing the list is also daft. It is usually powergamers who wants to hide their build.

If someone would have choosen to metagame the information that was in that list that is his own choice.

For me...it just helps finding a buddy to play with....which after all...is what roleplaying is all about...

Those who do not like removing the list that metagames the levels and classes are those who do not know how to do it.

Keeping the list leads to metagaming and on a true role playing server it cuts down on the headaches that DMs get from hearing about so and so is a powergamer and is getting too many levels too fast.

Every server I know that has removed it has found extra benefits as well.

[Eradrain]

FR Mulm wrote...
 removing the list that metagames the levels and classes are those who do not know how to do it.

Keeping the list leads to metagaming and on a true role playing server
it cuts down on the headaches that DMs get from hearing about so and so
is a powergamer and is getting too many levels too fast.

That's a grossly sweeping statement.  In fact, I'm a little shocked at your audacity in lumping me/the rest of the world and all the servers I/the rest of the world have played on in that absolute declaration.

Any time I find a server that cuts out quality-of-life game features out of a misguided desire for immersion, I look elsewhere.

It's not because I want to metagame.  It's because I hate servers that cut out game features - If I want pure RP, I will use a pure text-based format, like chat or a forum.  If I play NWN, I want to be RPing in a video game.

Some people like the idea of absolute hardcore realist purist RP in NWN (though I can't imagine why, chat-text is such a better medium for that), but they're not everyone, and they're probably not even the majority.

Modifié par Eradrain, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Butcher Dogblood]

The only issue I see with the op's list is the names of the characters..



Now, I won't make someone change their character name unless it's something offensive, but I really prefer people to take the time and think of a character name that "suits" the character in some way.



I prefer to not see things like"NInja Master 4300" as a character name..

Also, I hate seeing normal players use the Forgotten Realms gods as character names.

I've razzed a few folks for doing this (just kidding with them, not anything major). We had one guy using Bane.. my dm character of choice. Someone else tried using Corellon Larethian I think it was. There has been a Drizzt, a Bruenor, a Cadderly Bonaduce, someone tried using Elminster..



To me, in a RP server especially, that is in poor taste.



If you're playing an Orc, come up with something that sounds like an Orc's name would.. or if a dwarf.. and so on.



Ah well, that's just me. It's not something that we "force" on our server, but I do tell people when I see them using a name that irks me. I like to provide suggestions if the person is receptive.