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Has Liara achieved "Mary Sue" status?


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#26
DigitalMaster37

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Stormy-B wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

fourstringwizard wrote...

-And finally, defeats the Shadow Broker and becomes the most powerful information broker in the galaxy


I vividly remember Shepard beating the crap out of the Shadow Broker with his bare hands. Liara just answered his phone after he dropped dead.


I vividly remember her delivering the final killing blow though, as well as joining the fray before the slightly weird "Rocky XIII Galaxy Knockout" cutscenes as well :P


vividly... I recall the same thing. :P
Liara dropped the nitro-sprite on his head

#27
pf17456

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I do not find Liara's change from Archaelogist to Information Broker difficult at all to believe. She spent fifty years uncovering secrets about an extinct species. I think the basic principals of exploration and discovery have served her well. Much like a Scientist becoming a Forensic Detective or a Surgeon becoming a Vet, or a Skateboarder becoming a Snowboarder. It's only a matter of employing the same skills in a different way. Two years is more than sufficient.

As well Liara's 'change' from shy to not so shy isn't that hard to accept either. She simply overcame her fear as a result of being on Shepard's team fighting Saren and Soverign, She may have cowered in the begining but it wasn't long before she was fighting along side of a Krogan Battlemaster.

She watched her mother die, never met her father, has been the brunt of negative comments by peers behind her back for most of her life and was present when the first person she fell in love with and possibly surrendered her virginity to perrish. I'd say she might have some reason to be just a little upset.

So no I don't find Liara's story that hard to believe.

#28
jlb524

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Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Stormy-B wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

fourstringwizard wrote...

-And finally, defeats the Shadow Broker and becomes the most powerful information broker in the galaxy


I vividly remember Shepard beating the crap out of the Shadow Broker with his bare hands. Liara just answered his phone after he dropped dead.


I vividly remember her delivering the final killing blow though, as well as joining the fray before the slightly weird "Rocky XIII Galaxy Knockout" cutscenes as well :P


vividly... I recall the same thing. :P
Liara dropped the nitro-sprite on his head


Not only this, but the whole thing was Liara's idea in the first place.

#29
jlb524

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I also don't think Liara change much at all, or 'grew up' as some say. I think she has become more confident and finally comfortable in her own skin. I feel she always had some identity issues, probably as a result of being the daughter of a very powerful matriarch, who would have overshadowed her. In addition, she never knew her other parent and her studies were often ridiculed and ignored by her peers in the archaeology field (even if they were spot on).



I think she has overcome this finally, and this is the change she went through. Though it is a change, it still doesn't change who Liara was or is at the core, IMO. She's a natural at the Shadow Broker position, given her training as an archaeologist. The two basically involved organizing large amounts of data and looking for interesting patterns within it, and using this to come up with theories.



Is she a 'Mary Sue'? I don't think she is anymore than the other characters...she still maintains some flaws. She still has a bit of an obsessive streak to her personality, for one example.

#30
Marta Rio

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I think there's a definite difference between finding Liara's transition far-fetched and thinking that she's a Mary Sue type character. I tend to think of a Mary Sue as someone who (1) can do no wrong, (2) that everyone likes, and (3) that has characteristics that are outstanding compared to everyone else. I suppose Liara fits (3) in terms of her info gathering skillz, but you could say (3) fits every single squaddie in ME3 (that's why they're being recruited). But she's not infallible, as she's spent two years trying to correct a BIG mistake, and as far as I can tell the only people that actively like her are Shep and Feron. So until you have Tali or Garrus fawning all over her I'd say she hasn't hit Mary Sue status.

#31
Stormy-B

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pf17456 wrote...

I do not find Liara's change from Archaelogist to Information Broker difficult at all to believe. She spent fifty years uncovering secrets about an extinct species. I think the basic principals of exploration and discovery have served her well. Much like a Scientist becoming a Forensic Detective or a Surgeon becoming a Vet, or a Skateboarder becoming a Snowboarder. It's only a matter of employing the same skills in a different way. Two years is more than sufficient.
As well Liara's 'change' from shy to not so shy isn't that hard to accept either. She simply overcame her fear as a result of being on Shepard's team fighting Saren and Soverign, She may have cowered in the begining but it wasn't long before she was fighting along side of a Krogan Battlemaster.
She watched her mother die, never met her father, has been the brunt of negative comments by peers behind her back for most of her life and was present when the first person she fell in love with and possibly surrendered her virginity to perrish. I'd say she might have some reason to be just a little upset.
So no I don't find Liara's story that hard to believe.


Agreed.
And about that personality change, it might have been an adopted or forced behavioural change to be able to play the game (you just lost :P) that is required to be an information broker. And it was two years, I have personally seen people go from shy and shut in to outgoing and very much different in less than two years. And her situation demanded a different attitude, that makes for an even faster change.

#32
elmephd1

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No she isn't a Mary Sue, unless the author see's himself as a blue skinned alien "woman".



Then again, that's not what Mary Sue means anymore is it? It's no longer a fictional idealised avatar of the author, a more imaginative version of a self insertion. It's overuse has mutated it's meaning to include any female character that has ability.



All that's happened is that she, like the majority of the characters from ME1, has taken what TVtropes calls "A Level in Badass". Hence why Garrus could take on a army of mercs pretty much by himself, why Tali was leading a team and why Wrex was now a unifying force amongst the Krogan.

#33
Stormy-B

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elmephd1 wrote...

All that's happened is that she, like the majority of the characters from ME1, has taken what TVtropes calls "A Level in Badass". Hence why Garrus could take on a army of mercs pretty much by himself, why Tali was leading a team and why Wrex was now a unifying force amongst the Krogan.


This. Maybe I have missed something, but I haven't seen anyone calling the Mary Sue card on either of those characters lately.
Liara is no more a Mary Sue (as explained by wikipedia anyway) than any of those.

#34
Terraneaux

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Liara isn't a Mary Sue for a few reasons. One, she isn't flawless, and two, she doesn't steal the story away from what is supposed to be the main character. For a Sue, you'd have to look at Samara (and to a lesser extent Jack).

#35
GodWood

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A bit

#36
Collider

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Has Liara achieved "Mary Sue" status?


Close, but not quiet. Although the transition from ME1 to ME2 was hard to believe. Ultimately I don't care. I heard they made Liara a good character in LotSB though, so that's great.

#37
Zan Mura

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fourstringwizard wrote...
...


1:st, I don't know what a Mary Sue is. Could probably google around for it but I'll do that later.

2:nd, as a response for the post:

All of the characters in your roster are virtual demigods where their abilities are concerned. Garrus is a virtual legend as Archangel, Grunt is supposed to represent the ultimate Krogan, and knowing what some of the most powerful Krogans have been, that's saying something. Thane is among the best assassins in the galaxy, etc. This is not the first game where cutscenes and story imply power that you don't gain access to once they join you, simply because balance demands it. We overlook it, because it's more cool this way than representing each of your companions as people who depend on teams and even then die 1 on 1 against any common grunt in hardcore + difficulties.

The specifics of what and how Liara survived were never shown. You have no idea where she was during the explosions, or the details on how the assassination attempt played out. As an information broker she was likely very aware of potential information leaks. I mean, if she had any talent at all (and we know she did, a lot in fact), she would have assumed that the SB was onto her as she got closer even if she had no definite info suggesting that. Just to be sure. So she would have kept her barriers on her at all times just in case.

Also it serves to remember that Liara was the "Asari scientist" in ME1. Not just any archeologist, but an extremely intelligent Asari, daughter to one of the most powerful matriarchs (and as such, one of the most powerful biotics) in the galaxy, at a very young age. Her connection to Shepard what with the mind melding and all would also have given her information and insight both Prothean and military with Shepard's own experiences, beyond what most her age could possibly have known. Add to this that it was always in her base nature to be extremely focused on whatever she was doing, that's why she was sort of a hermit so completely focused to the Prothean research. Compared to many other Asari who seemingly take mundane roles and spend their time on leisure among their duties, Liara was the kind of personality to focus her full attention every single minute of every single day, to Shepard, then information, and finally getting to the Shadow Broker.

Two years is not much, I can agree on that. Considering no matter how few, there are other Asari with her intellect and hundreds of years more experience and more time to do what she had done. But circumstances aren't always the same for everyone.. so while searching for realism is just redundant as eventually it all comes down to the story being done at the expense of said realism - not the other way around -, I still believe Liara's development is quite realistic and believable. Which is why I count LotSB as the best DLC to date, despite its short duration. Because LotSB isn't just a DLC, it connects to - and draws from -, all that happened in ME1 and ME2, and will happen in ME3. It's the missing piece of a puzzle that while small, is completely essential to the story of ME as a whole, and especially for a Shep who's romancing Liara.

Liara was never a simple do-goody girl, and now we understand that. She was naivé, inexperienced and socially awkward. She had dedicated so much of herself to Prothean research almost alone, that she hadn't had a chance to develop her personality socially. Her infatuation to Shepard and the sudden and complete change of her entire life in ME1 led her to come off as a simple weak goody good character. Now we know better. The events in ME1 and the following death of Shepard gave her new focus to the world of people she'd now been introduced into, and a reason to care: the Reapers, and Shepard herself. When Shepard died, Liara felt betrayed, alone and helpless in a world she didn't know. And so she did the only thing she knew to do: studied, gathered information like an ingenious archaeologist, peeling at the layers of information, lies and deceit in the society to find answers, eventually giving her what others needed: information. To do that, she undoubtedly had to learn quickly, and would have experienced quite a few losses and betrayals as well, forcing her to harden her outside personality.

Ultimately her base nature remains the same as in ME1. She is an ingenious scientist who would much rather study, learn and acquire information than play it social with other beings. The difference to ME1 is that in ME2 she has learned to operate in the world of people, forcing her to keep a cold and hard exterior to maximize her efficiency. Information is still a priority, just not Prothean. The exception though is Shepard. Ironically, people speak of the scene with Shepard after LotSB as something that develops Shepard's personality when Liara is the only person she has a chance to open up to. The irony being that Shepard is also the only person Liara can confide in fully, the only true friend, and more if you let her be.

This is the way I understand her, at least. TBH right now with the LotSB DLC, if ME was one movie, it would be clear that Shepard was meant to be with Liara. The other romanceables are optional choices, but right now it seems so clear who the original soulmate is. It's a story that isn't always easy and perfect, a relationship that doesn't go Walt Disney, as none of them do in real life. But one that is nevertheless meant to be, and hopefully will still end up in a happily ever after. :wub:

#38
royceclemens

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I'm kind of leery of the whole "Mary Sue" label, myself. No one can give me consensus on what the hell it means, for one, so under all these multiple definitions every character you can think of besides the grodier offenders on Law & Order: SVU gets that label slapped on them.



Liara is what the plot needs her to be. Nothing more and nothing less. Same as anyone else in either game.

#39
philiposophy

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Her change between the games did seem like a stretch. That said, I really enjoyed Lair of the Shadow Broker so I'm okay with it.

#40
Killjoy Cutter

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royceclemens wrote...

I'm kind of leery of the whole "Mary Sue" label, myself. No one can give me consensus on what the hell it means, for one, so under all these multiple definitions every character you can think of besides the grodier offenders on Law & Order: SVU gets that label slapped on them.

Liara is what the plot needs her to be. Nothing more and nothing less. Same as anyone else in either game.


A "Mary Sue" is a particular type of character in fanfiction.  Calling any ubercompetent (or overcompetent) character a "Mary Sue" reduces the term to meaninglessness.

#41
Killjoy Cutter

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How old is Liara at the time of LotSB?



Keep in mind that the age of Asari can be deceiving. She's not as young as she looks. While the Asari might consider her a very young adult, she already has a human's lifetime of experience.


#42
PrinceLionheart

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Terraneaux wrote...

For a Sue, you'd have to look at Samara (and to a lesser extent Jack).


Those two are hardly sues either. Calling someone a "sue" has become such a blanket argument it's not even funny. <_<

Honestly, the only character in the game who fits the description of a Mary Sue is Commander Shepard.

#43
fourstringwizard

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PrinceLionheart wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

For a Sue, you'd have to look at Samara (and to a lesser extent Jack).


Those two are hardly sues either. Calling someone a "sue" has become such a blanket argument it's not even funny. <_<

Honestly, the only character in the game who fits the description of a Mary Sue is Commander Shepard.


But we KNOW Shepard's a Mary Sue.  Hence no need for discussion.  :P

#44
Flamewielder

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People assume that Liara had no resources at her disposal when Shepard died...



What about a matriarch's inheritance? How much money, resources and contacts did Liara inherit from her mother? Matrriarch have considerable status among asari, and Matriarch Benezia was so well-known the asari councillor recognized her voice!



I admit I was shocked at first by her transformation from recluse scientist to information broker. But when I thought about Liara's mother and what her legacy must have been, the transformation made lots of sense.

#45
Guest_My name is Legion_*

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fourstringwizard wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

For a Sue, you'd have to look at Samara (and to a lesser extent Jack).


Those two are hardly sues either. Calling someone a "sue" has become such a blanket argument it's not even funny. <_<

Honestly, the only character in the game who fits the description of a Mary Sue is Commander Shepard.


But we KNOW Shepard's a Mary Sue.  Hence no need for discussion.  :P


Ok I'm incredibly confused now.

So is a Mary Sue character someone that is stupidly over powered to the point where it isn't believable?

#46
Elyvern

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Originally, a Mary Sue is a personification of a writer's ideal self--she can do anything she sets her mind to, everybody in the world likes her, everything miraculously falls into place for her, no matter how unlikely the situation is--in short, she is perfect.

I don't think Liara is the ideal personification of any writer in Bioware, so the label is misleading, but I did find her abrupt change from ME1 to ME: Redemption a sort of character assassination. Her becoming a bad-ass through LotSB wasn't progressive. She acquired her "new" personality sometime before Redemption #1, and it just kept building up from there, but we never did get a specific answer as to why she was looking for Shepard's body (since I never romanced her, I find it extremely creepy) or why she became so hardbitten even before losing Feron to the shadowbroker.

#47
Shiran

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I think people just use term "Mary Sue" for the characters they don't like who they perceive as overly powerful. It can very easily apply to any of the recruits in ME2.



As of Liara.. As of all characters in ME1 she is the only one for who such dramatic change actually makes sense.



Remember she is an asari, who have such transitions build into the race. She was maiden on Therum. By the time we meet her in ME2 I think she completed her maiden to matron transformation. As others pointed out in this threat, she was far from hopeless with access to her Mother's resources, I don't think it is coincidental that her initial base of operation is on the Illium, where her Father is.



The alliance soldiers didn't seem to have much ambitions or interest in their character development, so they stayed with Alliance. Garrius did very well for himself, becoming a vigilante mini-SPECTRE. Wrex did what he was planning to do all along. But Liara is really the only one who had financial resource, smarts and just plain ol' tenacity to transform like that.

#48
Elyvern

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She's a little over 100, and remains very much in her maiden state. Besides the state transition involves a change in mentality like wanting to settle down, have children. Not a 180 degree change in personality.

I can buy that she is the only character from ME1 with the most resources and free time to look for Shepard (since Shepard puts her out of a job in the first place), but my Shepard doesn't talk to her and basically rescued her before Illos, so all in all, it's still creepy to me.

Modifié par Elyvern, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:05 .


#49
PrinceLionheart

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My name is Legion wrote...

fourstringwizard wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

For a Sue, you'd have to look at Samara (and to a lesser extent Jack).


Those two are hardly sues either. Calling someone a "sue" has become such a blanket argument it's not even funny. <_<

Honestly, the only character in the game who fits the description of a Mary Sue is Commander Shepard.


But we KNOW Shepard's a Mary Sue.  Hence no need for discussion.  :P


Ok I'm incredibly confused now.

So is a Mary Sue character someone that is stupidly over powered to the point where it isn't believable?


No, a Mary Sue, Elyvern described, was original used to describe a writers tendency to create a "perfect" or near-flawless character for their fanfiction. It's not just a matter of being powerful or an expert, but having no personality flaws, a major force in the storylines, and sometimes other characters just plain act stupid around him/her to only prove how awesome said character is. That's why clearly, the only real Mary Sue in this series is Shepard. :P

Now the problem with this term is people have started using them against canon characters. It's hard to call a canon character a sue, because frankly, if you deconstruct any character they'll be a "Sue."

#50
Azint

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Liara is not perfect, nor is she infalliable to the story. She has quite a few amount of character flaws, notably in the first game being her naivety. ME2 has had Liara go through a lot of changes, if you consider a character who has been driven to a vendetta for the sake of friendship and possible love to be such a thing, then I suppose she is a Mary Sue.



Liara is about as perfect as any of the other characters. If any, it's Miranda who comes off as the Mary Sue character, and even then it's subverted once you get her talking about her own insecurities.