69 réponses à ce sujet

[Kudara]

Liara is not a Mary Sue. I would argue that neither is Shepard.

Why?

Because if Shepard was a Sue she could use her Sue power to make that da** turian councilor listen to her! The very fact that she can't proves her non-Sueness to my mind.

Ok in all seriousness, I think I like the Wikipedia definition for a Mary Sue.

"A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader."

I think the critical point there is the wish-fulfillment fantasy part. You really have to understand where the term originally came from, and that was the Star Trek fanfiction of the 70's. Yes the term has been around now for around 40 years.

Again some history from Wikipedia.

The term "Mary Sue" is taken from a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale,"[4] published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[5] The character in question was Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"). Smith's story poked fun at unrealistic and adolescent wish-fantasy characters in Star Trek fan fiction. Such characters were generally original (non-canon) and female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canon adult characters or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégés of those characters. They also possessed unrealistic, often exotic skills beyond those that would have been expected of a character in that series or of a conventional author surrogate.

Honestly I think the further we get away from the original usage and try to use it as a club against any character we feel is over powered the less the term comes to mean.

If you use the original definition you see why Wesley Crusher of ST:NG is perilously close to a Sue or Stue, but Liara is not and neither is Shepard.

Also I'd like to point out that Wesley Crusher was almost universally disliked because of his Stuness.  I can't say the same for Shepard at all.

Modifié par Kudara, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Omicrone]

If you follow her dialogue and instead of the "I want to talk about us" option, you choose "I worry about you" in LotSB, you'll see that she's plagued by guilt and all the things she does are because she wants to make it up to the people she's lost. She blames herself for Shepard, for Ferron. It's not easy for her at all - but that is what makes her all the more determined and able to achieve her goal. She's got a purpose and -anyone- can be badass if they know where they're going and how to get there.

[Nightwriter]

I see a Mary Sue as someone who is too uber-perfect and has no flaws and is hailed by everyone as omg awesome.

Liara has some definite flaws in LotSB. "I killed him, and I would do it again!" - un-Mary Sue-ishness at its finest.

And I don't share OP's complaints with her character transition. It was an improvement. I will not criticize an improvement.

[Terraneaux]

fourstringwizard wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

For a Sue, you'd have to look at Samara (and to a lesser extent Jack).

Those two are hardly sues either. Calling someone a "sue" has become such a blanket argument it's not even funny. <_<

Honestly, the only character in the game who fits the description of a Mary Sue is Commander Shepard.

But we KNOW Shepard's a Mary Sue.  Hence no need for discussion. 

Jack, and especially Samara, are sues due to their being written to take center stage away from the main character of the story (Shep).  The guy who wrote them wasn't interested in telling the Mass Effect story, Shepherd's story, and so wrote his own little segues.  Liara isn't a sue because her story relates to and enhances Shepherd's story, same thing with Garrus, Grunt, Tali, and all the other crewmates.  

[PrinceLionheart]

Terraneaux wrote...

fourstringwizard wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

For a Sue, you'd have to look at Samara (and to a lesser extent Jack).

Those two are hardly sues either. Calling someone a "sue" has become such a blanket argument it's not even funny. <_<

Honestly, the only character in the game who fits the description of a Mary Sue is Commander Shepard.

But we KNOW Shepard's a Mary Sue.  Hence no need for discussion. 

Jack, and especially Samara, are sues due to their being written to take center stage away from the main character of the story (Shep).  The guy who wrote them wasn't interested in telling the Mass Effect story, Shepherd's story, and so wrote his own little segues.  Liara isn't a sue because her story relates to and enhances Shepherd's story, same thing with Garrus, Grunt, Tali, and all the other crewmates.  

Oh dear. 

Ok, I'll bite. For starters are reasonings for why Jack and Samara are "sues" just plain doesn't make any sense. You say their stories don't add to the main story (which is hardly a qualification for what a Mary Sue) yet say Grunt and Garrus' is about getting revenge on a past betrayal, with Shep playing a supporting role. Grunt it about him going through puberty, and Shepard tagging along to help him through it. Garrus is dealing with a past betrayal with Shep once more only playing a supporting role. Samara has Shep seduce Morinth to lure her out of hiding. Shep tags along with Jack to help her deal with the base she was tortured at. Shep plays supporting roles in everyones story, why you choose to single out Samara and Jack I don't understand.

How about you expand a little more because I'm lost.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[bzurn]

Crunchyinmilk wrote...

Why was Liara the one to find Shepard's body? Because she's more brand iconic than Ashley and would sell more comics. That this resulted in an interesting plot arc is pure gravy.

I don't think Ash or Kaidan have quite had the chance to tell what's happened to them since Shepard's death so its kind of silly to speculate that Liara was more or less effected by it than them.

Another reason it would be difficult to use Ash or Kaiden as you are forced to kill one of those characters on Virmire.

I can see some strange things happening to Liara after losing her mother and a good friend in Shepard, but I think it is a big stretch of the imagination in her changing this much.  I found the dramatic change in character to be too much, and only barely acceptable with the recent DLC.

[Nimrodell]

Brodyaha wrote...

I always assumed Mary Sues have no character flaws, no development, can do everything perfectly. If that's the case, a 100% pure Paragon Shepard is the ultimate Mary Sue, and Jack and Samara hardly fit the bill.

In LotSB, one of the freakiest things Liara says is, "give me 10 minutes and I could start a war." Hardly paragon behaviour. She might go off the deep end in ME3....

After watching video surveilance thing with Matriarch Aethyta on Shadow Broker's ship, I hardly doubt that Liara's story will go down 'all good' path - on first recording Aethytais sitting, drinking and watching the photo of asari that remarkably resembles Liara... then when one thinks better and goes back to ME1 and Liara's story about her being pureblood and never knowing who 'her' father was... then returning to ME2 and remembering Aethyta's story about her even having a pureblod daughter once and her being a 'father' and that things didn't go well. Makes you wonder if Liara is actually Aethyta's daughter and if so... how she will behave when she discovers that her 'father' was all that time on Illium, serving drinks as matriarch. I don't know, just guessing, but there are way too many tiny things that seem to bond those two characters.

[Gibb_Garrus]

Just as long as they don't make it canon for liara to be consumed by power, and my shepard can pull her out of the fire. If this even happens.

[Arijharn]

I think that even if you didn't romance her in either ME2 or ME1, Liara is very much in love with Shephard (even if you rejected her). Considering you can romance her as either sex and that she has no official ties to any major faction, it seems to be the most prudent choice for to enact change. (She isn't Alliance, so she isn't a traitor to work with Cerberus, and because Cerberus is so slippery, it's next to impossible for the Council to pin anyone for doing so)

[brfritos]

fourstringwizard wrote...

As a side note, I was also a little disappointed you never really got to call her out on her obsession with revenge and her change in nature.  Millions of lives are at stake in ME2, and she couldn't put aside her vendetta to help Shepard with something that was far more important.  If I were Shepard, I may not have even trusted her after that!

Am I the only one who felt this way?  (Apologies if this has been done before, and this is NOT a troll post!)

Well, before LotSB you have the oppotunity to say that she's obsessed with revenge.
And she reacts really upset.

But I think that's the point with Liara and Zaeed, revenge and hate always blinds you for what's happening around you and consumes every life a person has.
Maybe it's a warning for the player, not a matter of trust.

[Dave of Canada]

I only read the main post but you didn't mention how Liara is the only companion in both games that is unable to die. As much as I dislike it, she'll probably have the most fufilling romance while those who got killable characters for romances will have to deal with it. It's one of the reasons I wanted the chance for Liara to die in LOTSB, she'd be equal with everybody else (except for the option of her death being in a DLC instead).

[Mox Ruuga]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I only read the main post but you didn't mention how Liara is the only companion in both games that is unable to die. As much as I dislike it, she'll probably have the most fufilling romance while those who got killable characters for romances will have to deal with it. It's one of the reasons I wanted the chance for Liara to die in LOTSB, she'd be equal with everybody else (except for the option of her death being in a DLC instead).

We shall see.

Of course, speaking of preferential treatment, Garrus and Tali have had it in spades. The only ones to get two games as squaddies, elevation to "love interests", their own loyalty missions (actually two of them, if you count the ME1 assignments)... I still wouldn't evoke the dread "Mary Sue" label against either one, tho. Such a trite card to play, when one dislikes a character for whatever reason (and I do dislike Tali and have grown terminally bored of Garrus).

[bjdbwea]

I can't say that I'm perfectly happy with the transition and the position that Liara is in now. I would have preferred if her character had remained close to how she was. But then, I would also have preferred if Shepard had never died, and if the story had actually continued from ME 1, with the crew remaining (more or less) the same.

That said, the writing in ME 2 as far as Liara (and a lot of other characters and things) is concerned, was terrible. Beyond setting her on a certain track that I didn't like, it did so with no concern for the character. It is fact however that it did set Liara on that track. The DLC had no choice but to continue from there, and it delivered great writing and a beautiful continuation of her story and romance. Finally, the changes are at least somewhat explained. And most importantly, it shows that her old character is still there.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 19 septembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[Sago_mulch]

should you guys be suprised? mass effect is an EXTREME GAME. that means there is collar grabbing, sex, grittiness, shoving ppl out of windows, HARD C&C and extreme characters in it.



mass effect is EXTREME to the max so all characters should be having perma orgy(collar grabbing too) in the grimdark space whilst firong lazors to kill da repers.

[Tamyn]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I only read the main post but you didn't mention how Liara is the only companion in both games that is unable to die. As much as I dislike it, she'll probably have the most fufilling romance while those who got killable characters for romances will have to deal with it. It's one of the reasons I wanted the chance for Liara to die in LOTSB, she'd be equal with everybody else (except for the option of her death being in a DLC instead).

Yes. This. I would like there to be a chance for her to die in ME 3, just to level the playing field, but this probably won't happen.

And a comment about her personality: I have never once considered Liara shy. Shy people do not confess their attraction to someone in their second/third conversation (if they ever do). She might be considered socially awkward in the first game. But I would never say she's shy.

[Dustbeard]

I never considered her to be a Mary-Sue, though at first I found the changes to her character a bit odd. Having played ME1 again recently however I don't think any of her abilities are abnormal for the character, they just emphasise that she's moved on since Shepard last saw her - I mean her life's work was resolved (discovering the truth behind the Prothean extinction), so at the very least she was probably going to find a new job!

Her combat skills aren't unreasonable either - even if you didn't get Pinnacle Station (which you could say would train her to a decent fighter) she's a powerful biotic from the outset and confident enough fending off dangerous wildlife, scavengers and small merc bands at dig sites, by herself, for the last 50 years. That's nearly twice as long as Shepard's entire military career. Add to the fact that in ME1 she helps destroy a giant evil robot and save all life in the galaxy...well, who exactly are you going to fear fighting after that?

There's nothing odd about becoming an information broker either - she's already been investigating mysteries for decades, so finding other information isn't a stretch. She mostly talks to people over video phone or through her assistants, and I'm pretty sure her kill-you-with-my-mind hardness is to make sure people take her seriously. Furthermore she's trying to find the Shadow Broker, the best information dealer in the galaxy, so it's logical she'd decide to become one herself - she has to immerse herself in his world to understand her enemy.

The only thing I still don't really get is exactly why she's so set on getting revenge on him. But then I didn't read the comics.

[KendallX23]

...Liara gets quite a shift in personality since ME1...and i must say...comics Liara waaay over ME1 Liara...well LOTSB Liara is over ME1 Liara too...