164 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

nelly21 wrote...

Their "self awareness" is the result of decision making programing by the Quarians. Are the Quarians gods then?

Legion: Our "gods" disowned us. We must create our own reasons to exist.

But anyhow, if you're implying that only gods can create self-aware beings, then I'll have to disagree.

[Kavadas]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's not about what they're made of, it's about whether they're self-aware, self-motivating, and thinking entities.

This is disingenuous; you forget, as Legion himself points out, that Geth neither experience or understand emotions.  This makes the Geth some type of psycopathic-schizoid hivemind.

Are the Geth a type of life?  Yeah.  Are the Geth capable of any level of emotional experience?  No.  Are they even capable of understanding organics' emotions?  Probably not.

The Geth have some qualia and while that does make them technically sentient they are very obviously not sapient.  This actually makes them a lower life form.

Modifié par Kavadas, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Inverness Moon]

Kavadas wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's not about what they're made of, it's about whether they're self-aware, self-motivating, and thinking entities.

This is disingenuous; you forget, as Legion himself points out, that Geth neither experience or understand emotions.  This makes the Geth some type of psycopathic-schizoid hivemind.

Are the Geth a type of life?  Yeah.  Are the Geth capable of any level of emotional experience?  No.  Are they even capable of understanding organics' emotions?  Probably not.

The Geth have some qualia and while that does make them technically sentient there are very obviously not sapient.  This actually makes them a lower life form.

Legion made it quite clear that they understand emotions like anger, but do not experience them:

"Anger is an organic response. We understand the theory, but we do not experience it. We do not judge the creators' anger towards us. We did them great harm in the Morning War. Organics fear that which is different. It is a hardware error. A reflex of your flesh. We accept the creators' hate. We hold their world of origin, though we are only caretakers for it."

I also disagree that the geth are not sapient.

[Teknor]

Kavadas wrote...

This is disingenuous; you forget, as Legion himself points out, that Geth neither experience or understand emotions.  This makes the Geth some type of psycopathic-schizoid hivemind.

Are the Geth a type of life?  Yeah.  Are the Geth capable of any level of emotional experience?  No.  Are they even capable of understanding organics' emotions?  Probably not.

The Geth have some qualia and while that does make them technically sentient they are very obviously not sapient.  This actually makes them a lower life form.

BS. You can't apply emotional pathology to non emotional beings.
Legion said geth can't feel fear but understand its effect on organics. 
Sapience is the ability to make judgement. Geth are able to pass judgements which are reasonable. At least some of it.

[Kavadas]

Inverness Moon wrote...

I also disagree that the geth are not sapient.

You also think ignorance not only excuses but justifies total genocide

[Kavadas]

Teknor wrote...


BS. You can't apply emotional pathology to non emotional beings.
Legion said geth can't feel fear but understand its effect on organics. 
Sapience is the ability to make judgement. Geth are able to pass judgements which are reasonable. At least some of it.

Sometimes it is required that one do more than merely understand an emotion to make an appropriate judgement.  There's a reason why psycopathy is completely and utterly accepted as mental disorder because it strips one of a higher brain function.

I equate sentience to simple self-awareness but "sapience" equates to equal mental footing to us (humans in RL, all organics in ME).

In short, because they cannot experience emotion they are incapable of percieving a full or correct conclusion or judgement in certain situations.

Modifié par Kavadas, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:34 .

[Inverness Moon]

Kavadas wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

I also disagree that the geth are not sapient.

You also think ignorance not only excuses but justifies total genocide

Nowhere in my post did I mention justification. Please try to be more accurate.

[nelly21]

You're right, They are sapient. They aren't SENTIENT. They have no ability to feel. They are machines. Robots. Sure we can make sapient machines and programs. Just play Black & White for an example. But these programs have no sentience. They are programed with decision making software, that's it.



The geth do clearly exhibit some level of self awareness, but even this is limited. When Shep speaks to Legion, Legion displays an inability to understand the concept of self. "We are all geth" is his response because geth are programs and their bodies aren't anything more than mobile hard drives. They aren't really self aware.

[Inverness Moon]

Kavadas wrote...

Teknor wrote...


BS. You can't apply emotional pathology to non emotional beings.
Legion said geth can't feel fear but understand its effect on organics. 
Sapience is the ability to make judgement. Geth are able to pass judgements which are reasonable. At least some of it.

Sometimes it is required that one do more than merely understand an emotion to make an appropriate judgement.  There's a reason why psycopathy is completely and utterly accepted as mental disorder because it strips one of a higher brain function.

I equate sentience to simple self-awareness but "sapience" equates to equal mental footing to us (humans in RL, all organics in ME).

In short, because they cannot experience emotion they are incapable of percieving a full or correct conclusion or judgement in certain situations.

Firstly, geth did not have the capabity for emotion in the first place, so their lack of emotion is not a mental disorder.

Secondly, even if they don't experience emotion, if they understand it they could apply that understanding to their judgement if they wished to. However, I quite pleased that geth don't apply emotions to their judgement, and hope they continue that pattern.

You're not making a good case for why their lack of ability to experience emotions is a bad thing rather than just something that makes them different.

[Kavadas]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nowhere in my post did I mention justification. Please try to be more accurate.

Inverness Moon wrote...

How much of their actions can be excused depends on what they understood
at the time. We don't know if the geth understood that quarians were
individuals and did not build consensus on actions like the geth. They
could have easily believed that if any quarians attacked it meant that
they had built a consensus on attacking the geth, no matter if
individual quarians tried to escape from combat. The geth also probably
did not distinguish a child from an adult, because, why would they? They
probably thought children just represented future threats to be
disposed of.

Ummm, yeah, ya did.

From the bolded statement above you very clearly pointed out that so
long as they Geth don't understand their actions they are morally
absolved from any atrocities they committed.

In other words, you feel that ignorance is a perfectly acceptable justification for genocide.

Good to know.

Inverness Moon wrote...

...I [sic] quite pleased that geth don't apply emotions to their judgement, and hope they continue that pattern.

It's also interesting that you admire a psychopathic thought process.

Modifié par Kavadas, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[Teknor]

nelly21 wrote...

You're right, They are sapient. They aren't SENTIENT. They have no ability to feel. They are machines. Robots. Sure we can make sapient machines and programs. Just play Black & White for an example. But these programs have no sentience. They are programed with decision making software, that's it.

The geth do clearly exhibit some level of self awareness, but even this is limited. When Shep speaks to Legion, Legion displays an inability to understand the concept of self. "We are all geth" is his response because geth are programs and their bodies aren't anything more than mobile hard drives. They aren't really self aware.

They have concious, perception, ability to react their surroundings, creativity etc. They have sentience. Machines can have sentience. You are just a machine too. Having organic parts does not make you any less machine.

I don't get it. How is it limited ? The way they perceive themselves doesn't diminish their awareness. 

Modifié par Teknor, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

I say let them fight it out, then decide how to deal with the victor. I wonder if the geth have developed anything useful down there however.

[Inverness Moon]

nelly21 wrote...

You're right, They are sapient. They aren't SENTIENT. They have no ability to feel. They are machines. Robots. Sure we can make sapient machines and programs. Just play Black & White for an example. But these programs have no sentience. They are programed with decision making software, that's it.

The geth do clearly exhibit some level of self awareness, but even this is limited. When Shep speaks to Legion, Legion displays an inability to understand the concept of self. "We are all geth" is his response because geth are programs and their bodies aren't anything more than mobile hard drives. They aren't really self aware.

It's going to be pretty hard to debate about this if not everyone has the same definition of sentient and sapient. On that note, I'll add that the codex (and therefore BioWare) define the geth as sentient. It also notes that the geth achieved consciousness after their networking grew and began to mimic the layout of the organic consciousness.

You're also misinterpreting what Legion meant when he said "we are all geth."

Shepard: But I've met other geth.
Legion: We are all geth, and we have not met you.

Legion is saying that Shepard has not met the true geth, only the heretics. If he had met any geth, they would know about it.

I don't believe that being that aren't self aware talk philosophy like Legion.

[Inverness Moon]

Kavadas wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nowhere in my post did I mention justification. Please try to be more accurate.

Ummm, yeah, ya did.

From the bolded statement above you very clearly pointed out that so
long as they Geth don't understand their actions they are morally
absolved from any atrocities they committed.

In other words, you feel that ignorance is a perfectly acceptable justification for genocide.

Good to know.

Yes. In the case of the geth, their ignorance can excuse quite a lot of their actions during the Morning War.

Kavadas wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

...I [sic] quite pleased that geth don't apply emotions to their judgement, and hope they continue that pattern.

It's also interesting that you admire a psychopathic thought process.

A logical thought process you mean. The geth aren't psychopaths for lacking emotion because they never had them in the first place. It's not a hard concept to understand.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

 Organics fear that which is different. It is a hardware error. A reflex of your flesh.

The fact that they consider the fear of that which is different to be an error demonstrates that the geth have no clue what they're talking about.

If you're talking about the idea that fear of what was different kept our ancestors alive, I would agree with that. I think Legion believes that such a reflex no longer has a place in this time, as evidenced by how that reflex is why the quarians and geth are in the situation they are now. The reflex that kept their ancestors alive resulted in the near destruction of their race at the hands of the geth. That would certainly seem like a hardware error to the geth.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Any DLC involving such large amounts of geth-smashing should include some more Normandy action. As Legion's loyalty mission proved, you could sneak right up on them without too much trouble.

Firing would give your position away, but the Normandy is fast, so hit and run!

[Skyblade012]

nelly21 wrote...

You're right, They are sapient. They aren't SENTIENT. They have no ability to feel. They are machines. Robots. Sure we can make sapient machines and programs. Just play Black & White for an example. But these programs have no sentience. They are programed with decision making software, that's it.

The geth do clearly exhibit some level of self awareness, but even this is limited. When Shep speaks to Legion, Legion displays an inability to understand the concept of self. "We are all geth" is his response because geth are programs and their bodies aren't anything more than mobile hard drives. They aren't really self aware.

That remains to be seen.  If they can make decisions for themselves, if they are aware of themselves, then they are sentient.  Feelings are unnecessary.

Geth, as individuals, do not fully understand the nature of self, but they have some understanding of it.  Had they not, they would have no means of differentiation between geth.  Not only would a schism be impossible, but the idea of "forming consensus" would have no meaning.  Such a thing can only work if you have multiple, different viewpoints.

Personally, I believe that geth are a single entity, rather than a collection of such entities.  As EDI tells you, when she touched the geth network, she felt an enormous mind with many voices.  The geth, when combined, form a single mind, a single entity.  That mind has multiple voices in it, but what mind doesn't?  Is there a human who has never felt conflicted about something?  With logic suggesting one path, and emotions urging another?  And that is just a simple example.  The geth have billions of such voices, but they contribute to a single whole.  Only when separated, when lessened, as in a mobile platform, do they seperate out and become discrete entities.  Thus "Legion" is actually a single entity, unless he uploads and connects with the main geth whole.

The unique nature of the geth is that they can fracture and rejoin far more than any organic.  Among the geth, a voice that dissents strongly enough can gain its own independence, and become its own entity, if complex enough.  And any lost voice can be recaptured into the main mind.

The geth future, with the single station containing every geth pprogram, would unify the geth into a single, massive mind and entity.

[nelly21]

Teknor wrote...

They have concious, perception, ability to react their surroundings, creativity etc. They have sentience. Machines can have sentience. You are just a machine too.

I don't get it. How is it limited ? The way they perceive themselves doesn't diminish their awareness. 

What conciousness? Does each individual platform have conciousness? No. The codex clearly states that individual geth only run basic binary functions until they come into contact with other geth programs. This means that the individual geth is a program. 

My point is that they DON'T perceive themselves. They have no individual concept of self. They see only the hive mind and even in large numbers they are incapable of understanding individualism. They aren't alive.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Kavadas wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's not about what they're made of, it's about whether they're self-aware, self-motivating, and thinking entities.

This is disingenuous; you forget, as Legion himself points out, that Geth neither experience or understand emotions.  This makes the Geth some type of psycopathic-schizoid hivemind.

Are the Geth a type of life?  Yeah.  Are the Geth capable of any level of emotional experience?  No.  Are they even capable of understanding organics' emotions?  Probably not.

The Geth have some qualia and while that does make them technically sentient they are very obviously not sapient.  This actually makes them a lower life form.

Is having emotions a requirement for being sapient? 

You yourself refer to Legion as "himself", not as "itself".  Shephard and other characters have conversations with Legion.  Legion has something of a life beyond the mission, if the LotSb dossier is to be taken as canon.  What is it about Legion that makes him not sapient, when you'd never ask if a human or turian or hannar who exhibited the same behaviors were sapient? 

[Kavadas]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Yes. In the case of the geth, their ignorance can excuse quite a lot of their actions during the Morning War.

Oh, so you did mean ignorance is an acceptable justification for genocide.

...so why did you deny it???

Inverness Moon wrote...

A logical thought process you mean. The geth aren't psychopaths for lacking emotion because they never had them in the first place. It's not a hard concept to understand.

Nope, I mean psychopathic/sociopathic thought process.

And yes, the Geth certainly qualify as a giant psychopath.

• Do they experience emotion?  No.
• Do they understand the concept of emotions?  Maybe/yes (despite what Legion says who really knows).

Tada, the criteria which establishes one as a psychopath/sociopath.

Edit: LOLZ, done with this thread.  Enjoy!

Modifié par Kavadas, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[nelly21]

@ Skyblade

You're right. They do seem to be a single entity. But this concept would lead back to my original point. Killing geth is not genocide because they aren't individually alive. The individual platforms are tools for the hive mind. So, by your definition, as long as the hive mind exists, you can destroy billions of geth without killing a single living thing.

By the way Inverness, the definition of psychopath is lacking emotion. They are psycopathic. Don't think in terms of "crazy" because obviously they aren't. But by definition, geth are psychopathic.

Modifié par nelly21, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Yes. In the case of the geth, their ignorance can excuse quite a lot of their actions during the Morning War.

That works against the geth as well. Such ignorance is exceptionally
dangerous in the 'hands' of millions of accidental A.I.'s. The quarians were right to be afraid, they were not foolish to take proactive action  to eliminate the threat.

You're correct in saying that ignorance certainly is dangerous for both the geth and us.

Fortunately, as Legion explained, they're trying to actively model organic behavior and understand the judgement made by the quarians that lead to the Morning War. I think it is safe to say that the geth have come a long way since then.

I also find it unlikely, that when the quarians finally do make peace with the geth, that some will look back on their existence over the last 300 years and say that they made the right choice by trying to destroy the geth.

Adding to that, it seems quite clear that not all quarians agree on what action to take in regards to the geth, so I'm quite confident that even if many choose to attack the geth again, those that don't will be allowed to return to their homeworld.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Yes. In the case of the geth, their ignorance can excuse quite a lot of their actions during the Morning War.

That
works against the geth as well. Such ignorance is exceptionally
dangerous in the 'hands' of millions of accidental A.I.'s. The quarians
were right to be afraid, they were not foolish to take proactive action
to eliminate the threat.

Inverness Moon wrote...

If you're talking about the idea that fear of what was different kept our ancestors alive, I would agree with that. I think Legion believes that such a reflex no longer has a place in this time, as evidenced by how that reflex is why the quarians and geth are in the situation they are now. The reflex that kept their ancestors alive resulted in the near destruction of their race at the hands of the geth. That would certainly seem like a hardware error to the geth.

Yes, it might to them, but they're wrong. As I explained in the above comment the geth's ignorance makes them dangerous.

Issues of blame aren't, at the end of the day, productive when it comes to the Quarians and the Geth.  From what I've seen in the games, it seems to have been a tragic case of panic and mistakes all around.  For starters, the Quarians didn't intend to create a new sapient form of life, just very capable appliances.