The chantry is actually a great antagonist. People will side either way. Lots of shades of grey. Personally I dislike the organisation in general. Not sure if they are doing more harm than good though.
What do peole want to do more? Fight the Chantry or help them?
Débuté par
bloodmage13
, sept. 13 2010 02:28
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#227
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 12:54
Urazz
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I think that's what most of us would do.ErichHartmann wrote...
Depends, I would have no hesitation picking fights with Templars. They are too inquisitorial. The Chantry just needs to be purged of fanaticism and reformed. They do serve a greater good. So completely wiping them off the face of Thedas would serve little purpose.
Modifié par Urazz, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:55 .
#228
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:06
cruggero22
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thats a great idea, let the fanatics battle amongst themselves. after all its the only way they'd be able to affirm thier faith.
#229
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:09
ImoenBaby
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Anathemic wrote...
ImoenBaby wrote...
I agree that blood magic is evil, for reasons I'll get into, but consider this: Isolde volunteers to sacrifice herself. She is not coerced.
Many weapons can be gruesome and murderous; whether you're eviscerated by a sword or boiled by blood magic is a matter of preference, I suppose. But some blood magic seems to control the person's mind, which I find dehumanizing (for lack of a better term. Anyone?)
I think that taking choice from an individual - overriding them, treating them as if they weren't a person - is almost always wrong. There are exceptions, and I can see why someone would think overriding an ogre is acceptable. But it seems like an extravagant violation to reach in and twist someone, effectively breaking their free will.
There are acceptable ways to punish or defend, and then there's going over the line. A civil society doesn't rape rapists, for example. Is blood magic comparable? It does seem (to me anyway) that at least some blood magic is an act of intense personal violation. Of course, this criterion is by no means limitted to blood magic.
Again, Blood Magic is evil when used in evil ways, just as WMD's are evil when used in evil ways
It can be argued if one is skilled enough in pyschology/coecercion, that person can control them at will, makign the illusion that the person has free will but really does not, which is like Blood Magic's mind control jsut with more tactic involved, yet there is no ban to persuasion.
But just as WMD can be used for good, so can Blood Magic. An army of darkspawn and/or immoral beings attacking you and/or groups of people, blood magic can put an end to that.
You have a point, and agree with some of what you have to say.
Perhaps it makes more sense to say some blood magic - at least some blood magic, if not all - seems to be always evil. I believe this for the reasons mentioned above - but yes, if all psychology or persuasion overrode freewill, then they too would have to be suspect. I don't think any such thing, of course. There's a huge moral difference between, say, skilled persuasion and forced mind control.
Of course, there are exceptions. E.g., taking a murderer's free will away via prison. Perhaps there are individual circumstances where mind control blood magic doesn't actually happen - the darkspawn are mindless, are they not? Odd when you think about that.
But many things can put an end to an attacking group, and a murderer can be punished in a variety of ways. If you had absolutely no choice, then I agree that your self defense is justified. We do have choices though. Aren't some things beyond the pale - is blood magic one of them? I think at least some blood magic is a form of violation too evil to participate in, and I would want to investigate the rest before using it. I wouldn't stop a mugger or rapist by doing the same things to them, because these acts seem inherently immoral.
And that's what it boils down to - whether some or all blood magic is inherently immoral. I don't think everyone will agree with me on this one.
#230
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:16
Anathemic
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ImoenBaby wrote...
Anathemic wrote...
ImoenBaby wrote...
I agree that blood magic is evil, for reasons I'll get into, but consider this: Isolde volunteers to sacrifice herself. She is not coerced.
Many weapons can be gruesome and murderous; whether you're eviscerated by a sword or boiled by blood magic is a matter of preference, I suppose. But some blood magic seems to control the person's mind, which I find dehumanizing (for lack of a better term. Anyone?)
I think that taking choice from an individual - overriding them, treating them as if they weren't a person - is almost always wrong. There are exceptions, and I can see why someone would think overriding an ogre is acceptable. But it seems like an extravagant violation to reach in and twist someone, effectively breaking their free will.
There are acceptable ways to punish or defend, and then there's going over the line. A civil society doesn't rape rapists, for example. Is blood magic comparable? It does seem (to me anyway) that at least some blood magic is an act of intense personal violation. Of course, this criterion is by no means limitted to blood magic.
Again, Blood Magic is evil when used in evil ways, just as WMD's are evil when used in evil ways
It can be argued if one is skilled enough in pyschology/coecercion, that person can control them at will, makign the illusion that the person has free will but really does not, which is like Blood Magic's mind control jsut with more tactic involved, yet there is no ban to persuasion.
But just as WMD can be used for good, so can Blood Magic. An army of darkspawn and/or immoral beings attacking you and/or groups of people, blood magic can put an end to that.
You have a point, and agree with some of what you have to say.
Perhaps it makes more sense to say some blood magic - at least some blood magic, if not all - seems to be always evil. I believe this for the reasons mentioned above - but yes, if all psychology or persuasion overrode freewill, then they too would have to be suspect. I don't think any such thing, of course. There's a huge moral difference between, say, skilled persuasion and forced mind control.
Of course, there are exceptions. E.g., taking a murderer's free will away via prison. Perhaps there are individual circumstances where mind control blood magic doesn't actually happen - the darkspawn are mindless, are they not? Odd when you think about that.
But many things can put an end to an attacking group, and a murderer can be punished in a variety of ways. If you had absolutely no choice, then I agree that your self defense is justified. We do have choices though. Aren't some things beyond the pale - is blood magic one of them? I think at least some blood magic is a form of violation too evil to participate in, and I would want to investigate the rest before using it. I wouldn't stop a mugger or rapist by doing the same things to them, because these acts seem inherently immoral.
And that's what it boils down to - whether some or all blood magic is inherently immoral. I don't think everyone will agree with me on this one.
I sorta agree, I jsut particularly beleive that blood magic is the 'bad' magic because the situations it is used in are very vague.
Personally, my belief (and speculation) is that blood magic is a polar opposite of another type of magic which can commonly be seen as 'good' like the concept of Light and Shadow. Shadow is typically referred to as evil and immoral but if you really think about it, it is not. Shadow can be comforting and embracing, a state of the calm mind, at peace, but at otehr times can be dark and dangerous, forbodding and unforgiving.
So yes, Blood Magic might have 'evil associated with it, but I won't declare the whole branch 'evil' for it is knowledge, and all knowledge has no moral standard, it is up to individual to what morality he/she so desires to put it in.
#231
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:20
packardbell
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Fight.
The Chantry shouldn't have that much power and control over people.
The Chantry shouldn't have that much power and control over people.
#232
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:25
ImoenBaby
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Anathemic wrote...
Personally, my belief (and speculation) is that blood magic is a polar opposite of another type of magic which can commonly be seen as 'good' like the concept of Light and Shadow.
So yes, Blood Magic might have 'evil associated with it, but I won't declare the whole branch 'evil' for it is knowledge, and all knowledge has no moral standard, it is up to individual to what morality he/she so desires to put it in.
And this is another problem - what the heck is blood magic? The Chantry says it's this, blood mages say it's that, and do I trust anyone's word? Heck no.
Knowledge itself is not a moral subject, so I don't think you can attribute any morality to it. Now, how it's attained, on the otherhand...
*thinks of Avernus*
#233
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:29
SirOccam
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It's complicated. I think my Hawke is going to be a lot like my DAO character in that he will have conflicting opinions about the Chantry. He will definitely be in favor of mages having much more freedom (because of Bethany no doubt), but I think I will play him as mildly religious himself. He'll believe that the church does a lot of good, but not in everything. I hope there will be a compelling middle-ground there (and not just to weasel out of making any hard decisions).
I have a hard time playing religious characters though...they always come off as "just going through the motions" or "raving fanatic," with nothing in between. I'd prefer for my Hawke to be a little more reasonable in his belief. Like he'll believe in Andraste and the Maker, but he won't be able to recite any Canticles or anything.
I have a hard time playing religious characters though...they always come off as "just going through the motions" or "raving fanatic," with nothing in between. I'd prefer for my Hawke to be a little more reasonable in his belief. Like he'll believe in Andraste and the Maker, but he won't be able to recite any Canticles or anything.
#234
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:30
Anathemic
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ImoenBaby wrote...
Anathemic wrote...
Personally, my belief (and speculation) is that blood magic is a polar opposite of another type of magic which can commonly be seen as 'good' like the concept of Light and Shadow.
So yes, Blood Magic might have 'evil associated with it, but I won't declare the whole branch 'evil' for it is knowledge, and all knowledge has no moral standard, it is up to individual to what morality he/she so desires to put it in.
And this is another problem - what the heck is blood magic? The Chantry says it's this, blood mages say it's that, and do I trust anyone's word? Heck no.
Knowledge itself is not a moral subject, so I don't think you can attribute any morality to it. Now, how it's attained, on the otherhand...
*thinks of Avernus*
Exacly, Blood Magic is so vague and is labled as 'bad' and 'evil' because no knowledge of it = fear, the only real standard we have is that it requires blood, and 'blood' in most societies is 'bad' which is obviously not true.
And yes I agree to how you attain knowledge. A person wanting to attain knowledge of weaponry who does so with no intention of harm is seen as understandable whilst a person wantign to attain knowledge of weaponry to harm is seen as bad, which is true. Blood Magic can categorize here as well.
#235
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:34
Grand Admiral Cheesecake
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MAIM KILL BURN!!! MAIM KILL BURN!!!
FOR THE DARK GODS!!!
But in all honesty I'm more in favor of "extensive reforms" instead of "total destruction".
FOR THE DARK GODS!!!
But in all honesty I'm more in favor of "extensive reforms" instead of "total destruction".
#236
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:37
Daryn Mercio
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The only reason needed for fighting the chantry is because they are a bunch of clowns that wish to control all of Thedas. They preach peace and all, yet they force exalted marches upon whole racesThrubeingcool13 wrote...
There has to be a good reason to fight them. I'm not really interested in fighting something for the sake of fighting it.
#237
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:37
Sanctuary74
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Personally, I have almost no love for the Chantry and most templars. If I have the opportunity to fight them, and it is for something that I believe will help Thedas, then yes, most definitely. (I might just fight them for the heck of it too :])
#238
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:43
Daryn Mercio
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Actually they drove the Qunari from most of mainland Thedas with their Exa;ted Marches. Using. DUN-DUN-DUN! MAGES! Oh, the irony!Anathemic wrote...
wwwwowwww wrote...
Anathemic wrote...
The current Chantry is totally perverted in what Andraste originally wanted:
"Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him"
ZOMG WE MUST IMPRISON AND PERSECUTE ALL MAGES LOCK EM UP IN DA TOWA!!!!
No, Andraste's original message was that magic is a powerful tool, and like everything that comes with power comes great responsibility.
So it's a typical religion then? Skewing what is meant to serve their needs and desires.
Religion is humanity's way of coping with mysteries and what they don't understand. So yes the Chantry is a religion but uses their ideaology to pervert society's way of thinking that all mages are bad and Exalted Marches are of the Maker's will, too bad one of their Exalted Marches got pwned when they tried it on the Qunari
#239
Guest_JoePinasi1989_*
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:45
Guest_JoePinasi1989_*
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Jalem001 wrote...
No, you're not getting it. The examples are applied to the last Exalted Marches in the case of the
orphans because it effectively destroys your orphan example. You can't be raising orphans from events that happened over a hundred years ago, and we have absolutely no reason to believe that they've stopped helping the orphans (in fact we know they havent) simply because the orphans of that march are no longer present. In other words: We have established a pattern of the Chantry -always- helping Orphans, not merely when it suits their political needs or as a sort of bandaid to keep the peasantry happy.
The Exalted Marches against the Qunari are brought up in the case of monetary gain specifically because it's the only March which mentions coming about a peaceful resolution specifically because they wanted to -rebuild- the liberated nations. Rebuilding certainly means money, and the context of it certainly suggests that the Chantry will have a hand in it.
I don't even know what to say in response to your last paragraph because it's doesn't make a ton of sense to me. We already knew/established that there had been multiple Exalted Marches, and we pretty much know that if the Chantry survives, there will be more. You bringing it up again sounds an awful lot like you disagree with the concept of an Exalted March itself, which is your choice, but is merely opinion and says nothing of the virtue of the Chantry.
Oh and just because it's interesting...
Two interesting things to keep in mind about the last bout of Exalted Marches:
1. The Marches actually liberated conquered territory. During the Third Blight both Orlais and the Imperium occupied "liberated" territory.
2. The Chantry allowed Rivain to follow the Qun, and allowed them to negotiate the peace.
It's also worth mentioning that there were two massacres against humans who converted to the Qun, but such is war and we have no reason to believe that the acts were anything more than fanatical or perhaps overextended (potential hostiles? Civilians who may work with the Qunari but cutting your supply lines?) commanders. The Qunari, on the other hand, massacred any who refused to either accept the Qun or become a slave, and those who became slaves usually died from exhaustion or starvation.
Ultimately the point is that the Chantry can be trusted far more than the various nation states in upholding some sort of "common good" (I feel odd saying that, like I'm referencing the Tau), and that there is some tolerance there, although I wouldn't be shocked if Rivain saw an Exalted March sometime in the future.
"Raising orphans from events that happened over a hundred years ago"
... well I'm baffled. I'm definitely not getting it, I'm 100% sure of that now and I'm not disputing it in any way. I don't think I could ever get someone who can read stuff I did not write or claim in any way. You completely circumvented my initial question and you have won this imaginary argument, sir. Congratulations.__________________________________________
#240
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:46
packardbell
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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
MAIM KILL BURN!!! MAIM KILL BURN!!!
FOR THE DARK GODS!!!
But in all honesty I'm more in favor of "extensive reforms" instead of "total destruction".
Likewise.
They can still be around as a religious body but definately not having the control/power they did have basically like modern-day religions.
#241
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:49
Sable Rhapsody
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SirOccam wrote...
I'd prefer for my Hawke to be a little more reasonable in his belief. Like he'll believe in Andraste and the Maker, but he won't be able to recite any Canticles or anything.
Soo...more like the majority of mainstream religious folk in real life. Nice, normal, reasonable people who believe in the unobjectionable parts of their particular religion. I'm not sure how well you could roleplay that, but I'm sure most people in Thedas are of the reasonable sort. It'd be cool to try.
Not for me, though, at least not with the first female Hawke I play. I'm going to implode the Chantry
#242
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:52
Daryn Mercio
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I can honestly say I want to wipe the Chantry's influence from Thedas entirely.
They're genocidal maniacs that persecute their own people because of the off chance they may not master their powers. If the mages were not put under a thumb and forced to be incarcerated in a tower and raised right in the free world with their own family then far less would feel the need to gain power as long as they were raised right. Granted, there are some that would a bit touched in the head and they would aspire to be all powerful anyways, but that is less dangerous than every mage going that route out of fear.
The only good the Chantry ever did was driving the Qunari from (most of) Thedas (with the help of their mages that they persecuted)
They're genocidal maniacs that persecute their own people because of the off chance they may not master their powers. If the mages were not put under a thumb and forced to be incarcerated in a tower and raised right in the free world with their own family then far less would feel the need to gain power as long as they were raised right. Granted, there are some that would a bit touched in the head and they would aspire to be all powerful anyways, but that is less dangerous than every mage going that route out of fear.
The only good the Chantry ever did was driving the Qunari from (most of) Thedas (with the help of their mages that they persecuted)
#243
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 01:54
EmperorSahlertz
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I'll support them. I hate mages, and I hate DA mages even more, being the walking time bombs they are...
#244
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 02:01
Everwarden
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I'll support them. I hate mages, and I hate DA mages even more, being the walking time bombs they are...
Aw, did a blood mage kill your puppy?
#245
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 02:03
EmperorSahlertz
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Nope, I killed him before he matured.. Stupid kid did infest an entire village with undead though.
#246
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 02:05
packardbell
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Nope, I killed him before he matured.. Stupid kid did infest an entire village with undead though.
He was also possessed and had noble intentions.
#247
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 02:07
EmperorSahlertz
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.. He was a menace, and every mage is a menace and should be dealt with accordingly.
#248
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 02:32
NTsikuris
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fight the Chantry or help them? i honestly thought i knew this answer (fight of course!), but after i thought about it more... that isn't such a good idea, in my opinion anyway. the Chantry is the main religion in Thedas and like religion in our world, it helps us answer questions, gives us something to believe in in times of need and produces the foundation of our morals/values. so i wouldn't fight against the Chantry but rather REFORM it. controlling an individual for who they are is animalistic and wrong. i understand that the Chantry and Templars are afraid of another Tevinter Imperium, but most mages seem to want to help Thedas (ex: Wynne and the First Enchanter). i think the mages are fully capable of helping other magi come into their powers and helping them control/learn them... while warding off demons. Templars should ONLY be used in the case that a mage has been turned into an abomination or is knowingly reaking havoic. i think that in DA2, mages will finally break free from the Chantry and start to control their own lives.
#249
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 03:15
Koffeegirl
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Hmmm it depends on my playthough...but my first playthrough as apostate mage will fight them of course:)!
Modifié par Koffeegirl, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .
#250
Posté 14 septembre 2010 - 03:24
wwwwowwww
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Maybe I'm reading some peoples responses wrong, but it seems a lot will fight if they are playing a mage. Why only a mage? Pretty much anyone against oppression would have a reason to fight the Chantry. Being that we know about Hawke's sister and father, you would think Hawke of any class would have good reason to take on the Chantry.
That being said you would have to wipe them out completely. Leave anything behind and it will just rise again, and everything you did is for nothing.
That being said you would have to wipe them out completely. Leave anything behind and it will just rise again, and everything you did is for nothing.
