1503 réponses à ce sujet

[turian councilor Knockout]

I see no reason to help them, they are just a bunch of fanatics who wants to control everything.



They dont care for example if apostates are maleficar or not, Anders is a good example of this hes a good guy that never felt that he belonged to the chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

One change I would do to the current setup is to move the circle to a bigger island...and allow more contact with the parents. But then again, more contact could make it harder for the new mages to adjust.



Mages have it good, but people do need space. Something bigger than that small island would be nice, give the mages more room.



Mages MUST be contained and trained. They must be in a place where containment would be easy.

[Daerog]

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

I see no reason to help them, they are just a bunch of fanatics who wants to control everything.

They dont care for example if apostates are maleficar or not, Anders is a good example of this hes a good guy that never felt that he belonged to the chantry.

The first part can be said about any government or governing body, and every organization has fanatics, although the few fanatics we have seen are not in high power (only fanatic/crazy I can think of who is part of the Chantry is Cullen).
Anders is a good example. They know he is not a maleficar, so in all his seven escape attempts, they have never killed him. If he was a maleficar, he would be killed on sight. Also, it's not just the Chantry he didn't agree with, but also the Circle.
However, if you wish to burn down the Chantry and the Circles, I'll hand you the torch in my second playthrough.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

- You don't know exactly what prompted the march on the elves. Not enough data.

Also,
Just wanted to point out two things, the first thing is about the quote. We do have some data from the wikia:

2:5 Glory: Increasing hostility between elves and man result in numerous border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais. Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have been committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen.


2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sack Val Royeaux and push well into human lands, Halamshiral is conquered and the elves are completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The lands of the Dales come under Orlesian control, with elven settlements being uprooted and worship of the elven gods forbidden. The elves are forced to either live with humankind and under their rules or wander as homeless vagabonds.

So, either Orlais or the Dales starts the war (this seems the debate part), and when the elves attack the capital of Orlais, which is also the home of the Chantry (so it is like Rome), the Chantry must have gotten scared and called for the Exalted March. So, the Exalted March was first called for when the Chantry itself was in danger, not when the war started and the elves were winning. It started with justifiable reasons (defending oneself) that eventually lead to a very bad/sad/horrifying end (the destruction of a nation and a culture crushed). Was the end the Chantry's fault or Orlais'? The Chantry calls these marches, but I see no Revered Mothers leading them. The only really stupid call for a March was on the Tevinter Imperium, as that was a knee-jerk reaction to fear of Tevinter going back to evil empire. The dwarf one was considered, but I'm not sure if it was actually called. Reasons would be the oppression of the Andrastian faith if the dwarf brother was killed or the danger of an unsupervised Circle.

The second thing I wanted to point out is that the Chantry doesn't pay for all of the Circles bills. The Circle does make its own money in the services they provide. They are pretty good with dealing with their businesses, the real issue is that they are heavily supervised. The Circles can take care of themselves financially and all that, and they can certainly make good money, as there is that one Circle political group that is all about making money. I don't know who started this Harrowing business, likely mages as they are the only ones who know how to actually deal with magic. A lot of Circle stuff is set up by the mages with the approval of the Chantry, so to my mind, the whole Circle thing is a mix of concentration camps and the schools in Harry Potter. It would be nice if all the templars would leave the towers and just go to a nearby headquarters where they can be called when needed, but all the bull**** that happened in Origins due to the blood mage uprising doesn't help.

Have fun helping or fighting the Chantry.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:56 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm not arguing you should kill all mages. Just the ones who refuse to acknowledge the threat they pose to themselves and everyone around them. Any mage who is willing to submit themselves to circle rule is fine in my book. However any apostate should be hunted down and if he refuse to submit to the circle he shall be tranqulized or killed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sticking people in towers in never a good thing, but there's NO OTHER WAY.



IIRC, even in Tevinter they have a Circle...and they have towers. And they have their own imperial chantry. Do we even know if they have their own version of templars? Do we even know how high the rate of possesion is, compared to other countries?

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kerethos_ wrote...
As for the Chantry in general, one must remember that it is largely a part of politics – and it is not just religion. While I do not agree with the Chantry, I do not hate those that turn to it for answers about life’s mysteries. Unfortunately the Chantry teaches things that will inevitably lead to violence, on all that do not embrace their teachings. Thus they will, in fact; they must, convert the Dwarves, the Elves and the Qunari, or destroy them whilst trying. The Chant must be spread to all four corners of the world – and with it comes oppression and death. Any religion that promotes war and conquest of non-believers is a religion that I cannot support, and I would consider it to be, in fact, evil.

I fail to see the "by force" part in the "spreading the chant to all 4 corners of the world". Of course they wil ltry and spread their beliefs. Everyone is doing it, conciously or not. If you believe you're right you will try to "educte" someone who's not. You don't even need to be religious to do that.

Well no. But I see a difference in not allowing people to drive
tanks and imprisoning someone for lifetime just because of what he is.
Also I am not against control over mages. I just think the mages can do
it themselves, they need no dimwit near crazy sword swingers with
an inbred dislike for magic to guard them. The problem I have with the
Chantry is not that they try to establish order, my problem is the way
they do it.

I didn't say "peopel driving tanks"..because yo ucan take away a tank from someone (if diffficult). I said sentient tank. So you can't separate the big-ass cannon from him. That's the probem. A loaded gun 24/7. No way to put it in the safe for the night. Get drunk, get mad and all hell breaks loose.
Arguably, there's the Tranquil procedure.
And self-policing is never a good idea. Never was. That's why you always have completely independant and different organizations watching over eachother.

Sorry but according to you everyone who has any power must be locked away. People are not equal in power. Some may do martial arts, some may have a gun, some have political power, some are rich. The only difference is that mages are born with the talent, without having a choice. I will never tolerate any statement that tries to justify oppression of people because they are different or potentially dangerous. That's fascism to me. There may be understandable reasons why people want to lock away all mages, but there were also understandable reasons for what Loghain did, or the Tevinter Mages when they entered the Black City. That doesn't make it right though and I don't have to accept or even tolerate them.
 
I don't know if you even realize that your way to argue would also mean all humans (from the view of other species on our planet) should be controlled by some alien race because they are a threat to all life on earth. And that they can't control themselves because they need an independ faction to guard them. That's kind of ridiculous.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Akka le Vil]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sorry but according to you everyone who has any power must be locked away. People are not equal in power. Some may do martial arts, some may have a gun, some have political power, some are rich. The only difference is that mages are born with the talent, without having a choice.

A knife is a weapon, but it's not comparable to a nuke.

I will never tolerate any statement that tries to justify oppression of people because they are different or potentially dangerous.

Come back talking about it when some abomination raze your village and slaughter all the people you've known.
It's easy to talk the talk. But if abominations and blood magic really existed, the real criminal would be the one not protecting others from them. You don't sacrifice countless people just because it makes you look good saying "it's not nice to lock away some people !".

I don't know if you even realize that your way to argue would also mean all humans (from the view of other species on our planet) should be controlled by some alien race because they are a threat to all life on earth. And that they can't control themselves because they need an independ faction to guard them. That's kind of ridiculous.

That's not ridiculous at all. From the point of view of other species, it actually make A LOT OF SENSE.
And you would agree if it was about very advanced aliens using US as cattle. I can guarantee you that you would see positively some other entity restraining them.

You're just very narrow-sighted.

[Ortaya Alevli]

The more people they had like Greagoir among the templars, the harder I'd find to face them. He's one cool dude.

I find the Libertarianism in the Circle merely an unrealistic, romantic ideal. Something as grand as "magic" demands responsibility and you cannot expect all mages to possess the adequate sense of responsibility. Look around in real world. You see what happens in certain countries where average citizen has free access to firearms. Some people know better than barging into schools and pelting students with bullets, but some don't. And in Thedas, even a six-year-old has free access to magic, making such inconveniences much more likely. The incident in Redcliffe made a good case to support the idea of the Chantry supervising the mages. As for the tower thing, it seems an effective way of achieving this purpose, with no better alternative devised currently. The failure in the Circle of Ferelden only suggests the need for more manpower to watch over mages, not the opposite.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Sorry but according to you everyone who has any power must be locked away. People are not equal in power. Some may do martial arts, some may have a gun, some have political power, some are rich. The only difference is that mages are born with the talent, without having a choice. I will never tolerate any statement that tries to justify oppression of people because they are different or potentially dangerous. That's fascism to me. There may be understandable reasons why people want to lock away all mages, but there were also understandable reasons for what Loghain did, or the Tevinter Mages when they entered the Black City. That doesn't make it right though and I don't have to accept or even tolerate them.

Depends on what kind of power and how big a danger. Political power, for example, is a pwewr that relies on others. The president can't do nothing himself. Otehrs haev to do it for him..and there are checks in place.

Dangerous things have to be contained. That's is only logical. There is nothing in the world comparable to a mage/abomination in Thedas. The Tevinter Mages aren't comparable, as their resons are greed and lust for power. Loghain less so.
 
You say fascism? If that fascism will prevent my family getting killed and their corpses rising to destroy a whole village, then I can live with that.HAPPILY.

[Everwarden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not arguing you should kill all mages. Just the ones who refuse to acknowledge the threat they pose to themselves and everyone around them. Any mage who is willing to submit themselves to circle rule is fine in my book. However any apostate should be hunted down and if he refuse to submit to the circle he shall be tranqulized or killed.

Why does the Chantry have that right, and not.. for example, the rulers of the nation? Or the mages themselves? The Tevinter mages must have a good program of instruction, if they didn't the abominations would do significant damage to the country. How do we know that this is not the case? The war with the Qunari, a nation that is constantly under attack from within could not single handedly fend off such a significant threat.

You can't argue that the Chantry is really that good at it, the incident with Fereldan's circle is as much the fault of the Templar's failures as it is of the mages themselves, they weren't prepared for doing what they are supposed to be able specialists in.

Another thing the Chantry does to mages that is just disgusting is they take any child a mage has away and give it to the Chantry to raise. Completely pointless cruelty, and honestly something that would make me -want- to let in a pride demon if I was a mage, just to make the templars pay.

Modifié par Everwarden, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

How exactly did the Templars fail in Ferelden? They contained a Pride Demon and lots of abominations. Had it not been for the Templars Ferelden might very well have had a whole new threat to deal with along with the Blight. No, the Templars had not expected a leading figure within the Circle to be possessed, a mistake they will rectify from now on. But the Templars most certainly did NOT fail in their task.

For Tevinter: First of all we know next to nothing about how this land is goverend and how their magic practice is. All we know is that it is ruled by Magisters and that magic plays a significant part in their culture. Tevinter got a chantry of its own, which surely keeps taps on all the lesser mages of Tevinter, and the Magisters themselves are probably self-policing.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:04 .

[Everwarden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How exactly did the Templars fail in Ferelden? They contained a Pride Demon and lots of abominations. Had it not been for the Templars Ferelden might very well have had a whole new threat to deal with along with the Blight. No, the Templars had not expected a leading figure within the Circle to be possessed, a mistake they will rectify from now on. But the Templars most certainly did NOT fail in their task.

For Tevinter: First of all we know next to nothing about how this land is goverend and how their magic practice is. All we know is that it is ruled by Magisters and that magic plays a significant part in their culture. Tevinter got a chantry of its own, which surely keeps taps on all the lesser mages of Tevinter, and the Magisters themselves are probably self-policing.

They closed a magic door that the mages likely made to keep out abominations, how impressive. The ability of the templars to control the situation has me in awe... I mean, what brilliant anti-abomination tactics, run and slam the door behind you. Why didn't I think of that?

/sarcasm off

The situation was dealt with by the warden, not the templars. The templars tucked tail and ran away. That is complete and utter failure in every sense of the word. The situation would have been much easier to deal with had relations between the templars and the mages been reasonable. Uldred wouldn't have been able to convince so many to turn to dangerous magic they wouldn't control if not for the fact that they are treated so badly (well, most likely, we'll never know for sure).


You're right that we don't know much about the Imperium's policy on magic use, but it can be reasonably assumed that the circle mages are treated far better, considering the larger part magic plays in the culture there. It can also be reasonably assumed that there isn't a huge problem with abominations, because it there was there wouldn't be an imperium, it would have crumpled already.

Modifié par Everwarden, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:13 .

[Akka le Vil]

Everwarden wrote...

The situation was dealt with by the warden, not the templars. The templars tucked tail and ran away. That is complete and utter failure in every sense of the word. The situation would have been much easier to deal with had relations between the templars and the mages been reasonable. Uldred wouldn't have been able to convince so many to turn to dangerous magic they wouldn't control if not for the fact that they are treated so badly (well, most likely, we'll never know for sure).

You completely fail at getting the facts.
The Templars were taken by surprise just like the mages (which means that self-policing actually didn't work, and isn't really a good argument for freeing the mages further), and they actually were able to contain the threat, and were simply waiting for the answer about the Right of Annulment and reinforcements.
The Warden was authorized to enter to attempt to salvage the lives of the mages or to kill them all himself, but eventually the Templars weren't about to be topped off and let the abominations go rampaging in Ferelden - and THAT, preventing Blood magic and abominations from going out, is the first of their purpose.

And actually, the Templars had relatively good relationship with the mages in the tower. There WILL always be resentment from a "captive" toward a "jailer", regardless of justified it is. The Templars themselves feel quite threatened by the mages too - remember Cullen ? He's not simply a jerk. He's someone who's got all the reasons in the world to hate mages and to be afraid of blood magic.

You're right that we don't know much about the Imperium's policy on
magic use, but it can be reasonably assumed that the circle mages are
treated far better, considering the larger part magic plays in the
culture there. It can also be reasonably assumed that there isn't a huge
problem with abominations, because it there was there wouldn't be an
imperium, it would have crumpled already.

First, we don't know if the mages are actually treated any better. If lots of them are slaughtered during the intestine wars for power and culling of the competition, it's not really better than the Chantry's towers. If a few of them reign and keep the other in their service, if amounts to the same.

And how are the NON-mages treated ? Funny how you don't even start to take this into consideration.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:22 .

[Everwarden]

Akka le Vil wrote...
You completely fail at getting the facts.
The Templars were taken by surprise just like the mages (which means that self-policing actually didn't work, and isn't really a good argument for freeing the mages further), and they actually were able to contain the threat, and were simply waiting for the answer about the Right of Annulment and reinforcements.
The Warden was authorized to enter to attempt to salvage the lives of the mages or to kill them all himself, but eventually the Templars weren't about to be topped off and let the abominations go rampaging in Ferelden - and THAT, preventing Blood magic and abominations from going out, is the first of their purpose.

And actually, the Templars had relatively good relationship with the mages in the tower. There WILL always be resentment from a "captive" toward a "jailer", regardless of justified it is. The Templars themselves feel quite threatened by the mages too - remember Cullen ? He's not simply a jerk. He's someone who's got all the reasons in the world to hate mages and to be afraid of blood magic.

No, I don't fail at getting the facts. We're both looking at the same facts, just reading them differently. Why would the mages police one another? I'm arguing that mages can police themelves if tasked with it, why would they bother doing so if they already have people there dedicated to just that purpose? They did -contain- the threat, if you want to call that an achievement... they did it by closing a door and sending for reinforcements. We don't know if they would have been able to successfully purge the tower once more templars arrived, or if they would have been able to keep the abominations pinned in long enough had the warden not come to save the day.

The second point you make is subjective, and likely varies from templar to templar on an individual basis. I don't get the impression the commander is doing what he does out of malice, true, but that doesn't change the fact that mages in all circles are stripped of their human rights and treated however the templars want to treat them. Mages have their children taken from them, aren't allowed to have relationships, and are taught to hate themselves, as evidenced by the mage you meet before entering the tower to purge it of abominations who sees the incoming right of annulment as a way to be cleansed of the cursed magic she has.

Modifié par Everwarden, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wrong.



Containment IS the purpose of the templars. Abominations WILL happen, one way or another - which is exactly the reason mages are kept in a tower - so they can be contained.

And yes, they are fully capable of purging the tower.



As for mages hating themselves - some do, some don't. It's not a issue specific to mages, people behave like that.

[Everwarden]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And yes, they are fully capable of purging the tower.
.

Evidence for that claim? There were a lot of abominations, and by the time the reinforcements arrived there would have been more. 

How many templars are in Thedas? They only give you 15 if you side with them. Could those 15 templars have cleared the tower out?

[Akka le Vil]

Everwarden wrote...

Evidence for that claim?

The seventeen previous Rights of Annulments that were carried out without the Warden being involved.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 14 septembre 2010 - 02:01 .

[Scipio203]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How exactly did the Templars fail in Ferelden? They contained a Pride Demon and lots of abominations. Had it not been for the Templars Ferelden might very well have had a whole new threat to deal with along with the Blight. No, the Templars had not expected a leading figure within the Circle to be possessed, a mistake they will rectify from now on. But the Templars most certainly did NOT fail in their task.

For Tevinter: First of all we know next to nothing about how this land is goverend and how their magic practice is. All we know is that it is ruled by Magisters and that magic plays a significant part in their culture. Tevinter got a chantry of its own, which surely keeps taps on all the lesser mages of Tevinter, and the Magisters themselves are probably self-policing.

IIRC, there are no more magisters. From the codex pages the magisters were the rulers of the "old" Imperium. Then after the 1st Blight happened, they did away with the magisters, and then appointed an Archon. Kinda like the Roman Republic turning into the Roman Empire. From what we can tell, the Imperium is still ruled by  Archons with a council (Roman Senate).

Modifié par Scipio203, 14 septembre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Everwarden wrote...
How many templars are in Thedas? They only give you 15 if you side with them. Could those 15 templars have cleared the tower out?

15 is hte engine performance limitation.

But could 15 templars clear the tower? Why not?
If 4 people can, then 15 can do it even easier.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars were taken by surprise and could not eleminate the threat, so they had to retreat, contain and await reinforcement. They did exactly as they were suppsoed to do in the situation.

[SirShreK]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

I see no reason to help them, they are just a bunch of fanatics who wants to control everything.

They dont care for example if apostates are maleficar or not, Anders is a good example of this hes a good guy that never felt that he belonged to the chantry.

The first part can be said about any government or governing body, and every organization has fanatics, although the few fanatics we have seen are not in high power (only fanatic/crazy I can think of who is part of the Chantry is Cullen).
Anders is a good example. They know he is not a maleficar, so in all his seven escape attempts, they have never killed him. If he was a maleficar, he would be killed on sight. Also, it's not just the Chantry he didn't agree with, but also the Circle.
However, if you wish to burn down the Chantry and the Circles, I'll hand you the torch in my second playthrough.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

- You don't know exactly what prompted the march on the elves. Not enough data.

Also,
Just wanted to point out two things, the first thing is about the quote. We do have some data from the wikia:

2:5 Glory: Increasing hostility between elves and man result in numerous border skirmishes between the Dales and Orlais. Finally, in 2:9 Glory, elven forces attack the Orlesian town of Red Crossing and quickly take it over. The atrocities they are said to have been committed there against the humans of the town and the Chantry enraged humans across the land. Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen.


2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard and marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for a holy war against the elves. This becomes known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves eventually sack Val Royeaux and push well into human lands, Halamshiral is conquered and the elves are completely crushed by 2:20 Glory. The lands of the Dales come under Orlesian control, with elven settlements being uprooted and worship of the elven gods forbidden. The elves are forced to either live with humankind and under their rules or wander as homeless vagabonds.

So, either Orlais or the Dales starts the war (this seems the debate part), and when the elves attack the capital of Orlais, which is also the home of the Chantry (so it is like Rome), the Chantry must have gotten scared and called for the Exalted March. So, the Exalted March was first called for when the Chantry itself was in danger, not when the war started and the elves were winning. It started with justifiable reasons (defending oneself) that eventually lead to a very bad/sad/horrifying end (the destruction of a nation and a culture crushed). Was the end the Chantry's fault or Orlais'? The Chantry calls these marches, but I see no Revered Mothers leading them. The only really stupid call for a March was on the Tevinter Imperium, as that was a knee-jerk reaction to fear of Tevinter going back to evil empire. The dwarf one was considered, but I'm not sure if it was actually called. Reasons would be the oppression of the Andrastian faith if the dwarf brother was killed or the danger of an unsupervised Circle.

The second thing I wanted to point out is that the Chantry doesn't pay for all of the Circles bills. The Circle does make its own money in the services they provide. They are pretty good with dealing with their businesses, the real issue is that they are heavily supervised. The Circles can take care of themselves financially and all that, and they can certainly make good money, as there is that one Circle political group that is all about making money. I don't know who started this Harrowing business, likely mages as they are the only ones who know how to actually deal with magic. A lot of Circle stuff is set up by the mages with the approval of the Chantry, so to my mind, the whole Circle thing is a mix of concentration camps and the schools in Harry Potter. It would be nice if all the templars would leave the towers and just go to a nearby headquarters where they can be called when needed, but all the bull**** that happened in Origins due to the blood mage uprising doesn't help.

Have fun helping or fighting the Chantry.

Funny you should say that considering the Wizards have Ministry of Magic and what voldemort intended to do when he got the hold of that,,,,

[Everwarden]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Everwarden wrote...
How many templars are in Thedas? They only give you 15 if you side with them. Could those 15 templars have cleared the tower out?

15 is hte engine performance limitation.

But could 15 templars clear the tower? Why not?
If 4 people can, then 15 can do it even easier.

Well, your 4 are much more powerful than average, and you have mages to heal you and give supporting magic, templars don't have the same luxury. Also, wouldn't they all have died during the fade part? The only one who managed to resist the sloth demon's mage was the warden.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Templars are trained to fight exactly these kinds of situations. It is entirely plausible that a Templar would have been able to resist the Sloth Demon's magic entirely.

[SirShreK]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are trained to fight exactly these kinds of situations. It is entirely plausible that a Templar would have been able to resist the Sloth Demon's magic entirely.

Plot necessity mon ami, plot necessitiy.... It kills the powerful and makes legends out of the incompetent.

[EmperorSahlertz]

SirShreK wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars are trained to fight exactly these kinds of situations. It is entirely plausible that a Templar would have been able to resist the Sloth Demon's magic entirely.

Plot necessity mon ami, plot necessitiy.... It kills the powerful and makes legends out of the incompetent.

Indeed. But I was speaking out from an entirely lore based point of view