1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

Acharnae wrote...

I'm sorry but did wynne or gaider said that the chantry said no?
It would be best to find out about our game from our game not from the words of (very good) developers!

Gaider said that the boon was requested by the crown if you asked for that, and the chantry said no, but that this wasn't the end of the issue.

I think that the word of a writer for the game trumps the lack of a mention in Witch Hunt.

[Nyaore]

Everwarden wrote...

I'm not advocating that mages should be unchecked, I'm advocating the idea that they should be allowed to self-regulate their own. Mages have to be trained and isolated during that time, but there is no reason for templars to be present, since they do far more harm than good. No one in the Circle Tower would have followed Uldred if they hadn't been given some really good reasons to by the Chantry's abuse.

To be fair, that can often cause just as many problems as the Chantry's current policy. From what I recall of some of the Developer's comments is that the Circle Mages in Tevinter are regulated by their own kind, and yet are just as oppressed as their brethren in other countries. Power corrupts even those who share a common plight with those they are watching over, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I still wish that the mages were given more freedoms, don't get me wrong, but it needs to be done in such a way that would prevent a similar situation to what is happening in Tevinter from taking place in other countries. Because really, in that case you're just replacing one master for another.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The writer gave you the reason why it wasn't mentioned in the game. The request was overturned by the Chantry. There you have it. Not a plot mistake or anything.

[Everwarden]

Acharnae wrote...

My question is: in awakenings (which I have not finished) does it say that the circle is still under the chantry? And if yes, is an explanation given?

(for wh you could say you played it before coronation - a very weak excuse for a significant oversight but an excuse nevertheless. the dlc should have checked if it was post coronation, which choices you had made and reflect these choices. cheap work there (not the whole dlc which I liked very much for its ending). unless it was explained INGAME and I was so rushed to find morrigan that I did not see it, in which case I retract)

I think Gaider said it was mentioned in game in passing, buuut I don't remember that. I assume it's true, though.

[Ortaya Alevli]

I'm sorry, but that's a load of bull. Greagoir's templars failed horribly. There's no other way of putting it. If an abomination decides to revolt and take over the tower and you cannot quell the uprising, that's failure. If you lose a sizable chunk of your force to blood mages and demons, either by death or possession, that's failure. And if your excuse is "having been taken by surprise", that's more than simple failure; that's the definition of ridiculous. There's no being taken by surprise in guard duty. If you're trusted the task of watching over the most powerful and dangerous population in the entire country, you don't get the luxury of playing the coffee-sipping lame guard in Shoot 'Em Up. Templars screwed it up, plain and simple.

And it was not just 15 templars sent for aid. You may call 16 templars to help you personally, but that's only a small portion of the force that arrived at Denerim ahead of the rest. You can catch a glimpse of the troops departing from the tower in the cutscene showing the armies you gathered marching towards Denerim.

[ErichHartmann]

Sh** happens. Even the most elite warriors get caught off guard and potentially slaughtered from time to time.

[Ortaya Alevli]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Sh** happens. Even the most elite warriors get caught off guard and potentially slaughtered from time to time.

Err...have you ever done guard duty? I have. If you ever present this as an excuse to your superiors, you're most likely to increase the severity of your punishment tenfold.

[Everwarden]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I'm sorry, but that's a load of bull. Greagoir's templars failed horribly. There's no other way of putting it. If an abomination decides to revolt and take over the tower and you cannot quell the uprising, that's failure. If you lose a sizable chunk of your force to blood mages and demons, either by death or possession, that's failure. And if your excuse is "having been taken by surprise", that's more than simple failure; that's the definition of ridiculous. There's no being taken by surprise in guard duty. If you're trusted the task of watching over the most powerful and dangerous population in the entire country, you don't get the luxury of playing the coffee-sipping lame guard in Shoot 'Em Up. Templars screwed it up, plain and simple.
And it was not just 15 templars sent for aid. You may call 16 templars to help you personally, but that's only a small portion of the force that arrived at Denerim ahead of the rest. You can catch a glimpse of the troops departing from the tower in the cutscene showing the armies you gathered marching towards Denerim.

You put it far better than I could. As for only 15 templars, I concede that point.

[Anathemic]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Anathemic wrote...
Reasons why the Chantry fails
1) The current Chantry is nothing at all what Andraste wanted, again "Magic is meant to serve man, never to rule over him." This literal phrase that Andraste has spoken can be relayed in "Great Power comes great responsibility" (Spiderman quote ftw). So what does the Chantry do? Caught up in their fear and the downfall of the old Tevinter  Imperium they went persecuting and imprisoning mages left and right and whoever rebelled was immediatly killed.[/quote]

That line cna be interpreted in multiple ways. If you cannot prove that your interpretation is hte correct one, then you cannot call the Chantry wrong.


[quote]
2) Mages. Mages are people too. Magic is not learned, you are born with it. Again basic rights people, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. A mage can't help it if he's born with magical traits/abilities, neither can a leper help it that he's a leper, and yet we don't see lepers being imprisoned in towers and killed at random. [/quote]

You views are nto compatible with the reality of Thedas.
Mind you, in ye olde days, people with uncurable deases were banished from the cities and some were killed on sight.


[quote]
People bring up the topic of blood magic and blood mages, well look at
this way. Every sentient being has free will, with this free will
anyone can become anyone/anything, a savior, genoicider, etc. "Chantry
protects us from abominations and stuff!" Well yes, but abominations do
not all come from mages, a regular person whose not a mage can become
an abomination, it's just that mages are like 'ice cream' to demons.[/quote]

A regular person becoming an abomination is very rare, as the window for possesion is MUCH smaller and the circumstances for such happening more extreeme. Can you name a single non-amge abomination in the game?


[quote]
How bout instead of imprisoning mages up in the tower for the rest of their lives, how about a basic education system, hmm i dunno oh wait SCHOOL! ZOMFG. There they learn to harness their powers, and when they are ready ie pass the Harrowing, they can go out into the world with all the freedoms everyone else has.[/quote]

Wouldn't work. A little thing called reality has isssues with it.


[quote]
3) Templars. Templars are the holy warriors of the Chantry blahblahblah. Templars are the drug-addicts of the Chantry. The Chantry drugs the Templars with raw lyrium to keep them under their thumb, wow that's all righteous and holy isn't it?[/quote]

Name evil and abusive templars in the game.
Now name good templars....Hmm.. For some reason, I fail to see your point.


[quote]
4) Exalted Marches, the only good Exalted March was Andraste's march on the Tevinter Imperium, everything after that was stupid.
Exalted March on the elves! Why? Because they have pointy ears and don't worship da Maker!
Exalted March on the Qunari! Why? Because they come from dah sea and the Qun sucks!
Oh and one of the endings for DA:O:
Exalted March on Orzammar! Why? Because they got golems! (really now, that's stupid considering dwarves are your only defense so that Blights don't happen left and right)[/quote]

Fail. Do I really have to explain why? Yes?
- You don't know exactly what prompted the march on the elves. Not enough data.
- The qunari were invading and killing people. If that's not reason enough to call for a march, nothing is.
- forcibly binding the souls of people to golems in a excrutiating and painfull manner? A agressive and honorless ruler? Increased agression? Don't they spring to mind.


Honesty, do you you expect the Cahtnry to ahve a spotless record? It won't. Who does? Do you? Does any country? By that logic, everyone and everything is evil and should be destroyed/reformed.
Let's destroy the US and France and Germany..they all f**** up at one poitn or another, and they probably wil i nthe future. And kill you while we're at it. Surely you lied at some point. Done something bad.


[quote]
Defending Blood Magic
Oh no Anathemic, Blood Magic is evil!! So are blood mages, they must die! Well, that's what you percieve. Really I see Blood Magic as WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction), it's not evil put very powerful and can be used for evil ways (which tends to happen)

Blood Magic is just a branch of what we know as Magic in DA:O, just like a WMD is a branch of weaponology. Sure it came from demons and uses blood, but what are demons? They are spiritual manifestations of emotions, thus they are facets of what makes a person, just that they are bad emotions.

Really if you look at it, you can call Blood Magic "Life Magic" why? Because it harnesses the power of your emotions into weapons, initiated by blood but fueled by emotion. It's that most times Blood Magic is powered by the 'demon' emotions of anger, lust, greed, sloth, and pride. What happens when Blood Magic is powered by the 'good' emotions of happiness,  justice, honor, courage, etc.? [/quote]

Blood magic is NOT powered by emotion. It's powered by life force. Usually someone elses life force.





conclusion: EPIC FAIL on your part.

[/quote]

I like how you call be EPIC FAIL, when I haven't really done anything wrong against you, calm down buddy

[quote[That line cna be interpreted in multiple ways. If you cannot prove that
your interpretation is hte correct one, then you cannot call the Chantry
wrong.[/quote]

You didn't even counter this statement, all you referred to was the title and not the actual point numero 1 I bulleted on there, so therefore sir you EPIC FAIL.

[quote]You views are nto compatible with the reality of Thedas.
Mind you, in ye olde days, people with uncurable deases were banished from the cities and some were killed on sight.[/quote]

Okay well that was back in ye olde days, and as we all know everything is subjugated to time. Ever wonder why we don't kill people on sight anymore if theyre different? Because our society evolved ******, same can be applied to the Dragon Age universe, the societies there can evolve and so far are doing better than their real-world counterpart considering that human can live side by side and not have a problem with skin color which took the real-world counterpart like i dunno half a milennia to fix.

[quote]A regular person becoming an abomination is very rare, as the window for
possesion is MUCH smaller and the circumstances for such happening more
extreeme. Can you name a single non-amge abomination in the game?[/quote]
Okay and it is the mage's fault for being this way? Is it a persons fault for being born with diseases such as cancer, HIV, etc.? No it's not, again society evovled to accept these people, so can society in the Dragon Age universe, again at a much faster pace.

[quote]Wouldn't work. A little thing called reality has isssues with it.[/unquote]

Which reality, real-world or Dragon Age? Because in the real-world there is something called a school you shoul've gone through, might've even helped your social skills to not yell at a random person

But if in the Dragon Age universe reality, again societies can evolved. Dragon Age has proven that their societies evolve faster than their real-world counterpart (Again humans/elves/dwarves not persecuting because of skin color but because of species).

[quote]Name evil and abusive templars in the game.
Now name good templars....Hmm.. For some reason, I fail to see your point.[/quote]

Lemee point you to a lil' book called The Calling, "no way me not reading a bookz on a game!", well if your going into a lore-based debate such as this, you might wanna do so. In the book the templars in the Circle yell at little girl mages just for kicks, sure not corrupt but pretty damn outright full of themselves.

Abusive templars? Do Wynne's side quest on the elf student she had (whose name escapes me atm) and learn how after a futile chase they outright lied to Wynee and proclaimed he was dead.

[quote]Fail. Do I really have to explain why? Yes?
- You don't know exactly what prompted the march on the elves. Not enough data.
- The qunari were invading and killing people. If that's not reason enough to call for a march, nothing is.
-
forcibly binding the souls of people to golems in a excrutiating and
painfull manner? A agressive and honorless ruler? Increased agression?
Don't they spring to mind.[/quote]

1) What we do know is this, humans enslaved elves, Andraste frees elves, Chantry exalted march wtfpwns elves, elves force to live as outcasts or second-class citizens among humans. I'm pretty much on the elves' side on this one.

2) Qunari were invading to convert people into their society/religion wow look at that, Chantry got a piece of its own medicine, oh the irony.

3) Invalid, why? Because this was already done before, Cairidan and the corrupt king many centuries ago did this and no one had a problem with it, hell it helped against the darkspawn. You takes out the dwarves, the Blight will be a CONSTANT threat.

[quote]Honesty, do you you expect the Cahtnry to ahve a spotless record? It
won't. Who does? Do you? Does any country? By that logic, everyone and
everything is evil and should be destroyed/reformed.
Let's destroy
the US and France and Germany..they all f**** up at one poitn or
another, and they probably wil i nthe future. And kill you while we're
at it. Surely you lied at some point. Done something bad. [quote]

Why do you think that in current modern times more and more people are moving away from religion and go to believe their own thing (70% of Christians/Catholics beleive in their own version of God). Because our society evolved and so did too the morality system. Religion either needs to keep up with the times or be buried under the change.

No one has a spotless record, but everyone is expected to redeem him/herself by what? oh yeah, STOP ****ING DOING IT. But no Chantry uses "Help the poor and sick" as an excuse for Imprisoning/persecuting/killing mages.

[quote]
Blood magic is NOT powered by emotion. It's powered by life force. Usually someone elses life force.
[/quote]

Blood Magic comes from demons, demons are what? Spiritual manifestations of emotions. Blood Magic is powered by blood but the actual effect is a manifestation of an emotion.

[quote]conclusion: EPIC FAIL on your part.[/quote]

I'm sorry sir but you are EPIC FAIL, why? Because:
1) You failed to come out in a reasonable manner in the debate
2) You fail to grasp the idea that Dragon Age universe is heavily based on our own (as all human-made games are)
3) You resort to insulting and badmouthing instead of trying to put up a decent debate.

Sir I suggest a Therapist

[Morroian]

Akka le Vil wrote...
No, you're narrow-sighter because you only talk about the mage PoV, and completely lack to take into account the consequences of your ideas.

What consequences? You keep saying mages are nukes, well the in game evidence suggest they very rarely go off, and all groups independent of the chantry or self governed do appear to manage to keep them under control. The one example of the nuke going off happened under tempar control.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So you think that because some abuse their power they ALL aspire to abuse their power? You think that because someone think that submission is best achieved through violence they all think that way? Are you that narrow-sighted? And in the real world I dont have to care about Abominations and possession so of course I got another moral-compas.....

Those who abuse their power do so because they basically have absolute power over mages. That sort of power leads to abuse.

Akka le Vil wrote...
And how exactly does make it mages kept in check if they are making the checking themselves ?

Hu yes there is : to prevent mages to take control ?
What if the mages in the tower decide they want to be free and plot something and there is no Templar to keep an eye on them ?

They would already have more freedom then so what would they be rebelling against? As it is a lot of mages, if not the majority of mages, agree with the restrictions. If they policed themselves more and had less restrictions there would be a lot less even that now.

As for mages making the checks themselves do you think mages are all going to be of 1 mind? Police forces typically police their own, should they not be allowed to? The fact is mages naturally have the power to keep other mages in check, so establish a 'mage police force'. Templars have to suffer abuses of their own to get the power to equal mages, which is not right anyway.

Akka le Vil wrote...
Mages self-regulating themselves still means that there is a layer of mages that is unchecked, and hence can start to abuse its power. How can you control people if they start using mind-controling magic ?

There's always going to be a layer on top of any hierarchy. Other mages just have to be aware that those at the top aren't immune from scrutiny.

Acharnae wrote...
Nope. That's tottally unacceptable. Either you hear it ingame or it didn't happen and it is a plot mistake. Not following up the story.

Its implied in Awakenings that the situation hasn't changed and then we have Gaider's explanation for why, which makes sense. The king can't overturn the chantry.

Modifié par Morroian, 14 septembre 2010 - 10:36 .

[Anathemic]

[quote]Anathemic wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Anathemic wrote...
Reasons why the Chantry fails
1) The current Chantry is nothing at all what Andraste wanted, again "Magic is meant to serve man, never to rule over him." This literal phrase that Andraste has spoken can be relayed in "Great Power comes great responsibility" (Spiderman quote ftw). So what does the Chantry do? Caught up in their fear and the downfall of the old Tevinter  Imperium they went persecuting and imprisoning mages left and right and whoever rebelled was immediatly killed.[/quote]

That line cna be interpreted in multiple ways. If you cannot prove that your interpretation is hte correct one, then you cannot call the Chantry wrong.


[quote]
2) Mages. Mages are people too. Magic is not learned, you are born with it. Again basic rights people, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. A mage can't help it if he's born with magical traits/abilities, neither can a leper help it that he's a leper, and yet we don't see lepers being imprisoned in towers and killed at random. [/quote]

You views are nto compatible with the reality of Thedas.
Mind you, in ye olde days, people with uncurable deases were banished from the cities and some were killed on sight.


[quote]
People bring up the topic of blood magic and blood mages, well look at
this way. Every sentient being has free will, with this free will
anyone can become anyone/anything, a savior, genoicider, etc. "Chantry
protects us from abominations and stuff!" Well yes, but abominations do
not all come from mages, a regular person whose not a mage can become
an abomination, it's just that mages are like 'ice cream' to demons.[/quote]

A regular person becoming an abomination is very rare, as the window for possesion is MUCH smaller and the circumstances for such happening more extreeme. Can you name a single non-amge abomination in the game?


[quote]
How bout instead of imprisoning mages up in the tower for the rest of their lives, how about a basic education system, hmm i dunno oh wait SCHOOL! ZOMFG. There they learn to harness their powers, and when they are ready ie pass the Harrowing, they can go out into the world with all the freedoms everyone else has.[/quote]

Wouldn't work. A little thing called reality has isssues with it.


[quote]
3) Templars. Templars are the holy warriors of the Chantry blahblahblah. Templars are the drug-addicts of the Chantry. The Chantry drugs the Templars with raw lyrium to keep them under their thumb, wow that's all righteous and holy isn't it?[/quote]

Name evil and abusive templars in the game.
Now name good templars....Hmm.. For some reason, I fail to see your point.


[quote]
4) Exalted Marches, the only good Exalted March was Andraste's march on the Tevinter Imperium, everything after that was stupid.
Exalted March on the elves! Why? Because they have pointy ears and don't worship da Maker!
Exalted March on the Qunari! Why? Because they come from dah sea and the Qun sucks!
Oh and one of the endings for DA:O:
Exalted March on Orzammar! Why? Because they got golems! (really now, that's stupid considering dwarves are your only defense so that Blights don't happen left and right)[/quote]

Fail. Do I really have to explain why? Yes?
- You don't know exactly what prompted the march on the elves. Not enough data.
- The qunari were invading and killing people. If that's not reason enough to call for a march, nothing is.
- forcibly binding the souls of people to golems in a excrutiating and painfull manner? A agressive and honorless ruler? Increased agression? Don't they spring to mind.


Honesty, do you you expect the Cahtnry to ahve a spotless record? It won't. Who does? Do you? Does any country? By that logic, everyone and everything is evil and should be destroyed/reformed.
Let's destroy the US and France and Germany..they all f**** up at one poitn or another, and they probably wil i nthe future. And kill you while we're at it. Surely you lied at some point. Done something bad.


[quote]
Defending Blood Magic
Oh no Anathemic, Blood Magic is evil!! So are blood mages, they must die! Well, that's what you percieve. Really I see Blood Magic as WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction), it's not evil put very powerful and can be used for evil ways (which tends to happen)

Blood Magic is just a branch of what we know as Magic in DA:O, just like a WMD is a branch of weaponology. Sure it came from demons and uses blood, but what are demons? They are spiritual manifestations of emotions, thus they are facets of what makes a person, just that they are bad emotions.

Really if you look at it, you can call Blood Magic "Life Magic" why? Because it harnesses the power of your emotions into weapons, initiated by blood but fueled by emotion. It's that most times Blood Magic is powered by the 'demon' emotions of anger, lust, greed, sloth, and pride. What happens when Blood Magic is powered by the 'good' emotions of happiness,  justice, honor, courage, etc.? [/quote]

Blood magic is NOT powered by emotion. It's powered by life force. Usually someone elses life force.





conclusion: EPIC FAIL on your part.

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I like how you call be EPIC FAIL, when I haven't really done anything wrong against you, calm down buddy

[quote]That line cna be interpreted in multiple ways. If you cannot prove that
your interpretation is hte correct one, then you cannot call the Chantry
wrong.[/quote]

You didn't even counter this statement, all you referred to was the title and not the actual point numero 1 I bulleted on there, so therefore sir you EPIC FAIL.

[quote]You views are nto compatible with the reality of Thedas.
Mind you, in ye olde days, people with uncurable deases were banished from the cities and some were killed on sight.[/quote]

Okay well that was back in ye olde days, and as we all know everything is subjugated to time. Ever wonder why we don't kill people on sight anymore if theyre different? Because our society evolved ******, same can be applied to the Dragon Age universe, the societies there can evolve and so far are doing better than their real-world counterpart considering that human can live side by side and not have a problem with skin color which took the real-world counterpart like i dunno half a milennia to fix.

[quote]A regular person becoming an abomination is very rare, as the window for
possesion is MUCH smaller and the circumstances for such happening more
extreeme. Can you name a single non-amge abomination in the game?[/quote]

Okay and it is the mage's fault for being this way? Is it a persons fault for being born with diseases such as cancer, HIV, etc.? No it's not, again society evovled to accept these people, so can society in the Dragon Age universe, again at a much faster pace.

[quote]Wouldn't work. A little thing called reality has isssues with it.[/quote]

Which reality, real-world or Dragon Age? Because in the real-world there is something called a school you shoul've gone through, might've even helped your social skills to not yell at a random person

But if in the Dragon Age universe reality, again societies can evolved. Dragon Age has proven that their societies evolve faster than their real-world counterpart (Again humans/elves/dwarves not persecuting because of skin color but because of species).

[quote]Name evil and abusive templars in the game.
Now name good templars....Hmm.. For some reason, I fail to see your point.[/quote]

Lemee point you to a lil' book called The Calling, "no way me not reading a bookz on a game!", well if your going into a lore-based debate such as this, you might wanna do so. In the book the templars in the Circle yell at little girl mages just for kicks, sure not corrupt but pretty damn outright full of themselves.

Abusive templars? Do Wynne's side quest on the elf student she had (whose name escapes me atm) and learn how after a futile chase they outright lied to Wynee and proclaimed he was dead.

[quote]Fail. Do I really have to explain why? Yes?
- You don't know exactly what prompted the march on the elves. Not enough data.
- The qunari were invading and killing people. If that's not reason enough to call for a march, nothing is.
-
forcibly binding the souls of people to golems in a excrutiating and
painfull manner? A agressive and honorless ruler? Increased agression?
Don't they spring to mind.[/quote]

1) What we do know is this, humans enslaved elves, Andraste frees elves, Chantry exalted march wtfpwns elves, elves force to live as outcasts or second-class citizens among humans. I'm pretty much on the elves' side on this one.

2) Qunari were invading to convert people into their society/religion wow look at that, Chantry got a piece of its own medicine, oh the irony.

3) Invalid, why? Because this was already done before, Cairidan and the corrupt king many centuries ago did this and no one had a problem with it, hell it helped against the darkspawn. You takes out the dwarves, the Blight will be a CONSTANT threat.

[quote]Honesty, do you you expect the Cahtnry to ahve a spotless record? It
won't. Who does? Do you? Does any country? By that logic, everyone and
everything is evil and should be destroyed/reformed.
Let's destroy
the US and France and Germany..they all f**** up at one poitn or
another, and they probably wil i nthe future. And kill you while we're
at it. Surely you lied at some point. Done something bad. [/quote]

Why do you think that in current modern times more and more people are moving away from religion and go to believe their own thing (70% of Christians/Catholics beleive in their own version of God). Because our society evolved and so did too the morality system. Religion either needs to keep up with the times or be buried under the change.

No one has a spotless record, but everyone is expected to redeem him/herself by what? oh yeah, STOP ****ING DOING IT. But no Chantry uses "Help the poor and sick" as an excuse for Imprisoning/persecuting/killing mages.

[quote]
Blood magic is NOT powered by emotion. It's powered by life force. Usually someone elses life force.
[/quote]

Blood Magic comes from demons, demons are what? Spiritual manifestations of emotions. Blood Magic is powered by blood but the actual effect is a manifestation of an emotion.

[quote]conclusion: EPIC FAIL on your part.[/quote]

I'm sorry sir but you are EPIC FAIL, why? Because:
1) You failed to come out in a reasonable manner in the debate
2) You fail to grasp the idea that Dragon Age universe is heavily based on our own (as all human-made games are)
3) You resort to insulting and badmouthing instead of trying to put up a decent debate.

Sir I suggest a Therapist

Modifié par Anathemic, 14 septembre 2010 - 10:38 .

[ErichHartmann]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Sh** happens. Even the most elite warriors get caught off guard and potentially slaughtered from time to time.

Err...have you ever done guard duty? I have. If you ever present this as an excuse to your superiors, you're most likely to increase the severity of your punishment tenfold.

My point stands.  There is a chaos factor that prevents everything from running like clockwork all the time. (And if you must know I am a combat veteran).  And I didn't mean "off guard' literally.  Hidden dangers that not even the most observant individual can always anticipate.     

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 14 septembre 2010 - 10:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Everwarden wrote...

Acharnae wrote...

I'm sorry but did wynne or gaider said that the chantry said no?
It would be best to find out about our game from our game not from the words of (very good) developers!

Gaider said that the boon was requested by the crown if you asked for that, and the chantry said no, but that this wasn't the end of the issue.

I think that the word of a writer for the game trumps the lack of a mention in Witch Hunt.

According to Head Writer Gaider:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

The fact that this makes the Magi boon useless, and that neither the King nor the Queen show any signs that this is going to be difficult, or that the First Enchanter Irving actually says that he's proud that the Warden asked for independence when he or she could have asked for wealth, or why no mention of the difficulty of this during the ceremony isn't explained. It's possible that this reason is a recton to explain the current events of Dragon Age 2 between the mages and the templars, but if granting the Ferelden Circle independence matters to you, it does make the Magi storyline of DA:O utterly pointless.

[LobselVith8]

Face of Evil wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean like the Dalish mages we encounter who don't have insane drug addicts watching over them or go through Harrowings?

How do you know they don't have their own version of the Harrowing?

How do you know that they do? From what little we do know, the Dalish show no example of having their own versions of templars, there are mages within the Dalish clans that have high ranks (from Firsts to the Keepers themselves), and according to a discussion a Dalish Warden can have with Morrigan, practice entirely different kinds of magic than the Chantry sactioned magic employed by the Magi Warden.

Face of Evil wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or Kolgrim's pro-mage dragon cult, where mages were utilized and none of them were abominations?

Poor example. We know next to nothing about the private practices of the Disciples of Andraste; they might have indeed lost a few mages to possession and had to put them down. Or perhaps their connection to the High Dragon, whcih is a form of blood magic, simply made them exempt from becoming abominations.

Poor example? It illustrates mages working with non-mages without Chantry supervision and the town that both of them live in for centuries is still standing. No abominations running around, no templars, and according to the epilogue, Kolgrim and his people will be there for quite some time, since there are a growing number of converts who begin to worship the Dragon Andraste.

[Ortaya Alevli]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

Sh** happens. Even the most elite warriors get caught off guard and potentially slaughtered from time to time.

Err...have you ever done guard duty? I have. If you ever present this as an excuse to your superiors, you're most likely to increase the severity of your punishment tenfold.

My point stands.  There is a chaos factor that prevents everything from running like clockwork all the time. (And if you must know I am a combat veteran).  And I didn't mean "off guard' literally.  Hidden dangers that not even the most observant individual can always anticipate.     

Well, if your point is that "there is a chaos factor that prevents everything from running like clockwork all the time", I'm afraid your point has little relevance to the fact that templars can't possibly use "being taken by surprise" as an excuse. So Uldred emerged from the meeting room an abomination, having other mages on the run. Started killing and converting others with the help of several blood mages. That's exactly the situation templars should be on their guard against 24/7. Even your average jailor puts a better show in such circumstances, and we're talking about people who watch mages here.

I know quite a few fellow combat veterans, on the front lines and in support roles alike, who don't appreciate the importance of taking guard duty seriously (with good reason, so please take no offense), but that's beside the point.

[Riona45]

Acharnae wrote...

I think you could have asked for independence even if you were not a mage.

Nope.  Only a mage PC can ask for independence for mages.  All the origins have origin-specific boons.

[Everwarden]

To be fair, even as a libertarian supporter I wouldn't expect the change to come immediately. It would have to be slow and steady, prying the chantry fingers off the circle one by one with a pair of tongs (or a cleaver). So it seems reasonable to me for no change to be enacted yet, since the monarch is trying to be nice before having to start putting boot to ass.

Modifié par Everwarden, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

First of all, just because you got a guard does not mean you are safe from all kinds of amush, as a soldier I would know that.



Second of all just because we see no sign of control amongst the dalish and cult of andraste does not mean there is no control at all. For instance what happens to all the apprentices of the Keeper after he chooses his first? They still got some magic talent, yet there are only 2 mages in all Dalish clans, odd no? And for all we know the mages of the cult of andraste goes under a modified harrowing, they are adheres to the chant of light so they surely feel some need for control of magic.



Third of all, the Templars of the tower did NOT fail. They didn't stop the revolt no. But they CONTAINED it. Had the revolt broken through into hte countryside THEN there could be talk of a failure. The Templars were simply not prepared for an infestation of that magnitude. The Templars train to fight alone or small groups of abominations, demons or mages, not small armies of each. Considering the odds were stacked against them they did a commendable job at even containing the threat.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 14 septembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[Everwarden]

Having just finished the first two Dragon Age comics... I can safely say that I can't wait to kill templars in DA2. I had a healthy dislike before, but now.. well, they really, really need to die. Die painfully.

I think they are intentionally making templars easy to hate so people get a lot of catharsis out of killing them in Dragon Age 2.

[Collider]

Everwarden wrote...

Having just finished the first two Dragon Age comics... I can safely say that I can't wait to kill templars in DA2. I had a healthy dislike before, but now.. well, they really, really need to die. Die painfully.
I think they are intentionally making templars easy to hate so people get a lot of catharsis out of killing them in Dragon Age 2.

Is this an aversion towards all templars?

[Ortaya Alevli]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

First of all, just because you got a guard does not mean you are safe from all kinds of amush, as a soldier I would know that.

Of course. If that weren't the case, no military force would manage to defeat another in history. No invasion would take place. But how can you say "we were taken by surprise" in such a situation? Defeat is one thing, but this excuse is as lame as excuses go.

Third of all, the Templars of the tower did NOT fail. They didn't stop the revolt no. But they CONTAINED it. Had the revolt broken through into hte countryside THEN there could be talk of a failure. The Templars were simply not prepared for an infestation of that magnitude. The Templars train to fight alone or small groups of abominations, demons or mages, not small armies of each. Considering the odds were stacked against them they did a commendable job at even containing the threat.

They lost however many templars and mages they had inside, gave up those who were still alive, locked some door and Greagoir was like, "Now we wait and pray." Like a handful of city guards under siege. For all we know, it was Wynne who did the containing if there was any. If the Warden didn't arrive and save the day, it was only a matter of time before Wynne got exhausted and overrun by the bad guys that would in turn break open the doors and slaughter the rest of templars, including Greagoir. Templars were completely ineffective and did not deserve credit. As for the odds, they aren't supposed to be stacked against templars. If they aren't prepared for such insurgencies, there's little point in putting them there.

[Everwarden]

Collider wrote...

Is this an aversion towards all templars?

Well, the order and what they stand for as a whole. Not necessarily every individual Templar. Certainly I'd say the ones who participate in said acts -and- the ones who don't object or disapprove deserve a tenderizing via golem.

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
They lost however many templars and
mages they had inside, gave up those who were still alive, locked some
door and Greagoir was like, "Now we wait and pray." Like a handful of
city guards under siege. For all we know, it was Wynne who did the
containing if there was any. If the Warden didn't arrive and save the
day, it was only a matter of time before Wynne got exhausted and overrun
by the bad guys that would in turn break open the doors and slaughter
the rest of templars, including Greagoir. Templars were completely
ineffective and did not deserve credit. As for the odds, they aren't
supposed to be stacked against templars. If they aren't prepared for
such insurgencies, there's little point in putting them there.

Everwarden approves. (+10 approval)

Modifié par Everwarden, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:15 .