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[wwwwowwww]

Anathemic wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

The current Chantry is totally perverted in what Andraste originally wanted:

"Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him"

ZOMG WE MUST IMPRISON AND PERSECUTE ALL MAGES LOCK EM UP IN DA TOWA!!!!

No, Andraste's original message was that magic is a powerful tool, and like everything that comes with power comes great responsibility.

So it's a typical religion then? Skewing what is meant to serve their needs and desires.

Religion is humanity's way of coping with mysteries and what they don't understand. So yes the Chantry is a religion but uses their ideaology to pervert society's way of thinking that all mages are bad and Exalted Marches are of the Maker's will, too bad one of their Exalted Marches got pwned when they tried it on the Qunari

So again, not any different than today's religions.

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...

The current Chantry is totally perverted in what Andraste originally wanted:

"Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him"

ZOMG WE MUST IMPRISON AND PERSECUTE ALL MAGES LOCK EM UP IN DA TOWA!!!!

No, Andraste's original message was that magic is a powerful tool, and like everything that comes with power comes great responsibility.

That's what I think myself--the original passage was never meant as a directive to enslave mages, but that's how it wound up being interpreted.

As for the question: I intend to play an apostate mage (who happens to have an apostate sister and apostate father), so there's no way she'll have any warm feelings towards the Chantry or any natural desire to help their organization.  Who would feel love for an organization that would consistently hunt and try to capture or kill you (or your loved ones) as a matter of course?  That being said, this question really requires context.   Also, I intend my Hawke to be a trickster who uses cunning to reach her goals rather than brute force (which is often implied in threads like this).

No way am I going to discuss real life religion here--granted, it's interesting, but it really isn't appropriate on this forum.

Modifié par Riona45, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Anathemic]

Riona45 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

The current Chantry is totally perverted in what Andraste originally wanted:

"Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him"

ZOMG WE MUST IMPRISON AND PERSECUTE ALL MAGES LOCK EM UP IN DA TOWA!!!!

No, Andraste's original message was that magic is a powerful tool, and like everything that comes with power comes great responsibility.

That's what I think myself--the original passage was never meant as a directive to enslave mages, but that's how it wound up being interpreted.

As for the question: I intend to play an apostate mage (who happens to have an apostate sister and apostate father), so there's no way she'll have any warm feelings towards the Chantry or any natural desire to help their organization.  Who would feel love for an organization that would consistently hunt and try to capture or kill you (or your loved ones) as a matter of course?  That being said, this question really requires context.   Also, I intend my Hawke to be a trickster who uses cunning to reach her goals rather than brute force (which is often implied in threads like this).

No way am I going to discuss real life religion here--granted, it's interesting, but it really isn't appropriate on this forum.

Well the Chantry is really really closely simaler to the Catholic Church, but anyways going back on topic:

 I believe that Andraste wanted a society in which magic-wielders and the common norm can exist side by side like *real-life religion example starting* Jesus wanted to have all men, women, everyone to exist in all societies side by side *real-life religion example ending* but again individualism is heavily incorporated to humanity, thus Andraste's true message was perverted and the religion became a mage-persecution.

Anyways, I up 100% in agreement to fight the Chantry and obliterate them

[Shadow_broker]

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?



Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

[Nyaore]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

What about the blood mages in Tevinter?

Modifié par Nyaore, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:27 .

[Shadow_broker]

Nyaore wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

What about the blood mages in Tevinter? They're given free reign, or freer than in the other countries at least, and the world hasn't gone to hell in a handbasket yet.

Blood mage Propaganda obviously

We all saw the circle
We all saw Redcliffe
Bloodmages will destroy the universe

[Anathemic]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

Again, the Tevinter Empire was percieved as evil because they used magic in the way that endagers all and only empowers them. It's like using fire, one can use it to bring warmth, cook, and do many things but it has the potential to be used for burning, killing ,etc.

Andraste came in and halted the Tevinter Empire and created the religion which was based off on "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him". But after Andraste died, her followers being afraid of another Tevinter Imperium used this fear and paranoia as a justification to persecute and imprison all magic wielders.

If anything the Chantry only encourages the use of blood magic, for the imprisoned mages cannot chosoe their own path and after a time of restriction and dictatorship they will rebel and they will do so in whatever means possible for their independence.

[Everwarden]

Saibh wrote...

It depends on the game, doesn't it? The Chantry doesn't seem all bad. With magic and the Fade and all of that, I don't think atheism is really viable on a whole level in their world. The Chantry could be far worse than it is. I might not agree with all of their doctrines, but things can be changed, can they not? Eradication isn't the only option.

If they turned into the Spanish Inquisition, then we have a problem.

They are pretty bad.. I mean, sacking the Dales and all. Genocide of an already mostly beaten race is really low. Though I mostly hate them because I'm a mean, nasty Maleficar and I want to suck the life out of their preachy behinds for enslaving 'my people'. :happy:

[Shadow_broker]

Anathemic wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

Again, the Tevinter Empire was percieved as evil because they used magic in the way that endagers all and only empowers them. It's like using fire, one can use it to bring warmth, cook, and do many things but it has the potential to be used for burning, killing ,etc.

Andraste came in and halted the Tevinter Empire and created the religion which was based off on "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him". But after Andraste died, her followers being afraid of another Tevinter Imperium used this fear and paranoia as a justification to persecute and imprison all magic wielders.

If anything the Chantry only encourages the use of blood magic, for the imprisoned mages cannot chosoe their own path and after a time of restriction and dictatorship they will rebel and they will do so in whatever means possible for their independence.

Blood mages won't stop because they aren't impisoned,
If a single bloodmage becomes an abomination terrible things happen, and without the chantry no one can stop them short of an army.
Chantry ain't perfect, but imprsonment out of paranoia is better than blood mage genocide

[NonCanon]

Really depends on how the story unfolds, and what kind of Hawke I'm playing. I don't think the Chantry is all bad, but there are certainly shady aspects of it.

[upsettingshorts]

/puts on his Krogan costume



They aren't worth killing.

[Solstice-x]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

What about the blood mages in Tevinter? They're given free reign, or freer than in the other countries at least, and the world hasn't gone to hell in a handbasket yet.

Blood mage Propaganda obviously

We all saw the circle
We all saw Redcliffe
Bloodmages will destroy the universe

in the warden's keep DLC, the veil could be fixed by the blood mage. 

[Rake21]

Really comes down to what the reason for siding with or destroying them.

If my choice is to either side with Flemeth for some mad grab at godhood or helping the Chantry stop her, then I'm gonna side with the Chantry.

If the Chantry wants to lead an Exaltted March against the Dalish or the Dwarvs, then it'll be time to burn some churches.

[Anathemic]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

Again, the Tevinter Empire was percieved as evil because they used magic in the way that endagers all and only empowers them. It's like using fire, one can use it to bring warmth, cook, and do many things but it has the potential to be used for burning, killing ,etc.

Andraste came in and halted the Tevinter Empire and created the religion which was based off on "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him". But after Andraste died, her followers being afraid of another Tevinter Imperium used this fear and paranoia as a justification to persecute and imprison all magic wielders.

If anything the Chantry only encourages the use of blood magic, for the imprisoned mages cannot chosoe their own path and after a time of restriction and dictatorship they will rebel and they will do so in whatever means possible for their independence.

Blood mages won't stop because they aren't impisoned,
If a single bloodmage becomes an abomination terrible things happen, and without the chantry no one can stop them short of an army.
Chantry ain't perfect, but imprsonment out of paranoia is better than blood mage genocide

Blood Mage into Abomination is the same thing as Muslim into Muslim fanatic (the ones who uses their religion to commit genocide and whatnot). Magic is not something that someone learns, you are born with it.

Basically it's like getting persecuted because of a slight defect and immediatly imprisoned for the rest of your life because your are 'different' and/or 'dangerous'.

And imprisonment out of paranoia isn't the best way to go, I think we learned that when the Catholic Church began persecuting and killing off many scientists whose theories disagreed with their religion

[Riona45]

Anathemic wrote...

Andraste came in and halted the Tevinter Empire and created the religion which was based off on "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him".

Actually she didn't create the religion (I checked the wiki).

[Anathemic]

Riona45 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Andraste came in and halted the Tevinter Empire and created the religion which was based off on "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him".

Actually she didn't create the religion (I checked the wiki).

Ahhh yes ty you are right, Andraste didn't create the Chatnry but she did influence the whole religion/idealoogy of the Chantry

[Sharn01]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

Again, the Tevinter Empire was percieved as evil because they used magic in the way that endagers all and only empowers them. It's like using fire, one can use it to bring warmth, cook, and do many things but it has the potential to be used for burning, killing ,etc.

Andraste came in and halted the Tevinter Empire and created the religion which was based off on "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him". But after Andraste died, her followers being afraid of another Tevinter Imperium used this fear and paranoia as a justification to persecute and imprison all magic wielders.

If anything the Chantry only encourages the use of blood magic, for the imprisoned mages cannot chosoe their own path and after a time of restriction and dictatorship they will rebel and they will do so in whatever means possible for their independence.

Blood mages won't stop because they aren't impisoned,
If a single bloodmage becomes an abomination terrible things happen, and without the chantry no one can stop them short of an army.
Chantry ain't perfect, but imprsonment out of paranoia is better than blood mage genocide

You dont need to be a blood mage to become an abomination, and not all blood mages are abominations, its just another kind of magic, yes it was originally created by the spirits of the fade, but that does not necessarily make it evil, any more then every spirit in the fade is evil.  The stigma against blood magic comes from the fact that the ruling class Tevinter mages used blood magic, and they where tyranical leaders.

While abominations are a real threat, the game has also shown us that abominations do not need to be mages, mages are just easier to possess for demons because of their closeness to the fade realm.  If anything the chantry forces the death of mages needlessly and causes more abominations then necessary.  They force mages into a confrontation in the fade that could happen before they are ready,  and those mages outside of the circle become more likely to be taken over by a demon, because they may not recieve the proper training to resist the attempts at possession when thier choices are live as a slave in the tower or learn everything on your own.

[The Edge]

There must be a peaceful solution!

[Rake21]

The Edge wrote...

There must be a peaceful solution!

But that's less fun.  Something needs to be slain.

[ErichHartmann]

Destroy one form/group of oppression and another takes its place. The cycle never ends.

[errant_knight]

Most people seem to be fairly devout, as is consistant with the middle ages. I don't think they'd support a major change. The Chantry is the only organized source of Charity, and probably provides whatever education the poor have access to, which can't be too terrible. We've seen Ferelden to be a surprisingly literate place. We also see wide variation in the way the Templars treat the mages. Gregoir shuts down Cullen when he wants to take an extreme action. Anders escapes time and time again, with no serious repercussions until it appears that he killed templars. Jowan was to be executed, but he was witnessed using blood magic, something vile enough to the average person that his own girlfriend wanted nothing to do with him after that. The templars in Ferelden, at the current time, anyway, seem to have some constraints.

I'm a little concerned that Hawke is from a family of apostates, in that it may prove difficult to find logical roleplaying reasons to make him or her anything but opposed to the Chantry, which would distress me. I hope that the story is set up in such a way as to allow for a range of possible beliefs for Hawke so that roleplay isn't limited.If Hawke is entirely surrounded by people who are against the Chantry, then having him or her believe differently might be a bit of a stretch. Of course, you could play an elf who didn't hate humans without too much trouble, so maybe my concern is baseless. Perhaps he/she has a devout family member who could have been an influence.

In any case, I generally play 'good' characters, and in this society, I don't see that as wanting to destroy the church. Depends on what's going on in Kirkwall, though. If the templars have gone off the rails, then one could see one's self as helping the Chantry by stopping their abuses, but for me, it would probably be a limited action aimed at a specific problem, not a desire to destroy the Chantry. It's impossible to say right now with any certainty.

I think it's quite possible that without the Chantry to give people a sense of security about what mages can and can't get up to, there would be a certain amout of panic that might even lead to a worse situation for mages. And that's not even getting into the fact that mages are dangerous.

Modifié par errant_knight, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[The Edge]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

The current Chantry is totally perverted in what Andraste originally wanted:

"Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him"

ZOMG WE MUST IMPRISON AND PERSECUTE ALL MAGES LOCK EM UP IN DA TOWA!!!!

No, Andraste's original message was that magic is a powerful tool, and like everything that comes with power comes great responsibility.

So it's a typical religion then? Skewing what is meant to serve their needs and desires.

Religion is humanity's way of coping with mysteries and what they don't understand. So yes the Chantry is a religion but uses their ideaology to pervert society's way of thinking that all mages are bad and Exalted Marches are of the Maker's will, too bad one of their Exalted Marches got pwned when they tried it on the Qunari

So again, not any different than today's religions.

I sense a personal... distaste...

[Shadow_broker]

Sharn01 wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

Again, the Tevinter Empire was percieved as evil because they used magic in the way that endagers all and only empowers them. It's like using fire, one can use it to bring warmth, cook, and do many things but it has the potential to be used for burning, killing ,etc.

Andraste came in and halted the Tevinter Empire and created the religion which was based off on "Magic is meant to serve man, not rule over him". But after Andraste died, her followers being afraid of another Tevinter Imperium used this fear and paranoia as a justification to persecute and imprison all magic wielders.

If anything the Chantry only encourages the use of blood magic, for the imprisoned mages cannot chosoe their own path and after a time of restriction and dictatorship they will rebel and they will do so in whatever means possible for their independence.

Blood mages won't stop because they aren't impisoned,
If a single bloodmage becomes an abomination terrible things happen, and without the chantry no one can stop them short of an army.
Chantry ain't perfect, but imprsonment out of paranoia is better than blood mage genocide

You dont need to be a blood mage to become an abomination, and not all blood mages are abominations, its just another kind of magic, yes it was originally created by the spirits of the fade, but that does not necessarily make it evil, any more then every spirit in the fade is evil.  The stigma against blood magic comes from the fact that the ruling class Tevinter mages used blood magic, and they where tyranical leaders.

While abominations are a real threat, the game has also shown us that abominations do not need to be mages, mages are just easier to possess for demons because of their closeness to the fade realm.  If anything the chantry forces the death of mages needlessly and causes more abominations then necessary.  They force mages into a confrontation in the fade that could happen before they are ready,  and those mages outside of the circle become more likely to be taken over by a demon, because they may not recieve the proper training to resist the attempts at possession when thier choices are live as a slave in the tower or learn everything on your own.

My opinion still stands,
1000 improsined mages>  abomination murderining 10,000
connor destroys all of redcliffe if the warden dosen't intervene
Uldred slays hundreds in the tower and turns the majiorty of them into monsters...
If we let mages turn to blood willy nilly with no enforcment, they will. It's incredible power and has been shown time and time again too hard to resist, If 1/10 blood mages become an abomonation and there are 100 blood mages that means 10 abomonations, and if these 10 abomintions live up to the scale of uldred or connor the world falls into chaos and the strongest kingdoms will fall in weeks.
Chantry>Demon Anarchy

Mages need to be prepared for Conforantations with the fade ASAP connor was what 7?
Every time you fall asleep you enter the fade, and everytime you enter the fade a demon is lurking for a way out.

[Saibh]

Everwarden wrote...

Saibh wrote...

It depends on the game, doesn't it? The Chantry doesn't seem all bad. With magic and the Fade and all of that, I don't think atheism is really viable on a whole level in their world. The Chantry could be far worse than it is. I might not agree with all of their doctrines, but things can be changed, can they not? Eradication isn't the only option.

If they turned into the Spanish Inquisition, then we have a problem.

They are pretty bad.. I mean, sacking the Dales and all. Genocide of an already mostly beaten race is really low. Though I mostly hate them because I'm a mean, nasty Maleficar and I want to suck the life out of their preachy behinds for enslaving 'my people'. :happy:

History is written by the victor, but there is no telling who struck first--some accounts say that the Dalish did. The destruction of Arthlathan was done by maleficars, and it is the prophet of the Chantry that freed the elves.

As I said, eradication is not the only option, nor do I believe it to be the wisest. A Reformation might be in order, though.

Hawkism.

[Dhiro]

Saibh wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Saibh wrote...

It depends on the game, doesn't it? The Chantry doesn't seem all bad. With magic and the Fade and all of that, I don't think atheism is really viable on a whole level in their world. The Chantry could be far worse than it is. I might not agree with all of their doctrines, but things can be changed, can they not? Eradication isn't the only option.

If they turned into the Spanish Inquisition, then we have a problem.

They are pretty bad.. I mean, sacking the Dales and all. Genocide of an already mostly beaten race is really low. Though I mostly hate them because I'm a mean, nasty Maleficar and I want to suck the life out of their preachy behinds for enslaving 'my people'. :happy:

History is written by the victor, but there is no telling who struck first--some accounts say that the Dalish did. The destruction of Arthlathan was done by maleficars, and it is the prophet of the Chantry that freed the elves.

As I said, eradication is not the only option, nor do I believe it to be the wisest. A Reformation might be in order, though.

Hawkism.

Actually, it would be Nutellism.