1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Anderman51]

I would leave the Chantry intact more or less. Maybe send a few of the corrupt members of the Chantry to their Maker, but that's about it.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I'm going to do as much as I can to take the Chantry down when it comes to keeping mages under their boots and I'd try to make them stop enslaving the Templars by getting them addicted to Lyrium. I have no problem with the moral aspect of helping people but the people who set the agenda for the Chantry need to go down.



Hopefully when I import my Mage from DA:O who freed the mages in Ferelden that will make the world look at mages differently and they'll have more freedom when the game starts out?

[Lumikki]

MariSkep wrote...

It's a prison.

I disagree.

In prison no-one gets out just because they self ask or wants. They are in prison to stay as long it's define.

How did Wynne get out from tower and did what she wanted?

[LobselVith8]

Lumikki wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

It's a prison.

I disagree.

In prison no-one gets out just because they self ask or wants. They are in prison to stay as long it's define.

How did Wynne get out from tower and did what she wanted?

She got permission to leave. Considering that her apprentice was nearly murdered for running away at fourteen years old by the templars, and 'prison' is the term used in the VO for the Magi Origin, I think it's an accurate description.

[Lumikki]

It's inaccurate description, because it's not prison. It's more like closed society, like monastery.

[LobselVith8]

Lumikki wrote...

It's inaccurate description, because it's not prison. It's more like closed society, like monastery.

People don't get murdered for running away from a monastery, mothers don't get their children taken from them by force in a monastery, the people living there don't live in fear of drug addicted soldiers who hate them and talk about killing them with glee.

[Heimdall]

I would rather reform certain parts of the chantry than destroy it

[Lumikki]

Oh my god, you people don't seem be able to make difference between before harrowing and after. Before harrowing you are like you say prison and will be killed if you try anything funny. After the harrowing you are no longet that big treath anymore and tower is for you more like monestary. You can leave if you have reason and get permission from Circle of Mages. Basicly Chantry controls your lifes before harrowing, but after that you are part of Circle of Mages.

[LobselVith8]

Lumikki wrote...

Oh my god, you people don't seem be able to make difference between before harrowing and after. Before harrowing you are like you say prison and will be killed if you try anything funny. After the harrowing you are no longet that big treath anymore and tower is for you more like monestary. You can leave if you have reason and get permission from Circle of Mages. Basicly Chantry controls your lifes before harrowing, but after that you are part of Circle of Mages.

Considering that even a Senior Enchanter like Uldred wanted to be free from the Chantry and revolted against the templars, I'd say that plenty of the mages see the tower as a prison. Mages can't leave the Circle, and this is made clear in the Magi Origin. If they run, even if they passed the Harrowing, they are treated as an apostate and hunted down, as made clear by the enchanter Niall (who wants to leave the Circle but can't).

[Lumikki]

Uldred was radical who wanted more power, not just freedom. Mage can leave tower if first enchanger Irving gives permission, other ways 7 mage would not been outside of tower. Even Uldred was outside of Tower. Yes, If you run from Circle of Mage, you become Apostate, but if you ask permission you are not. This is because Chantry needs keep track every mage as where they are and what they do. How ever, Irving deside where mages are. If you have good reason to go somewhere else than Tower, then just ask. That's what Wynne did.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The tower is a prison... its a pretty prison where people can read alot of books but its still a prison because you can't leave, if you do leave you are hunted down and killed. Prisions now a days alow prisoners to work out, play sports, and be outside and have TVs but guess what they are still in prison. The tower is the same exact thing

[Lumikki]

So, how was Wynne able to be outside of Tower multible times?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

She was let out with an ankle monitor... think of it as a temporary parole. Mages are only alowed to be free during emergencies like the Blight (And ever then only a hand full are allowed to do that) Wynne was a Senior Enchanter so she was probably given a longer leash than others but saying that a woman who was in her 60s has been out of the tower a few times in her life isn't exactly helping your case of the Tower not being a prision.

[Lumikki]

Yes, but it was Wynne who wanted to go out and Irving just gave the permission, that was all what was needed. Don't make assumption that others could not do same if it's needed. It's just easyer for Chantry if all mages are in one place, but it's not some absolute situation, like word prison means. Think about like modern word army. When you are in army to be trained, you can't just go out when you want. But with permission you can.

Modifié par Lumikki, 16 septembre 2010 - 10:40 .

[sw33t nothings]

For me, it really depends on what kind of character I'm playing. I'm going to base that decision of what aspects of the Chantry I'm exposed to during gameplay

[Riona45]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The short-sightendnes and the inabiltiy to see the bigger picture and conseuqnces of some people here really astounds me.
And the tempalr/Chantry hate is trough the roof, up to the point that accusation are made with nothing to back it up but the seeting hate one has. I'll expect that the enxt thing I'll hear is that templars eat mage babies for breakfast.

Cry some more!

[Riona45]

aaniadyen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And does a child of mages always end up being a mage? I'm not sure.

Well, in DA 2 apparently Hawke's dad is a mage, don't know about his mother though. His sister is a mage, but Hawke (main protagonist) can be anything. So my guess is no, children of mages don't need to be mages.

And don't forget Hawke's brother Carver, who is a warrior.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

First Enchanter Irving was convinced that if Uldred wasn't stopped, he would eliminate the remaining templars and threaten all of Ferelden.

And Loghain was convinced there was no real blight. Cailan was convinced they would win at Ostagar.
People have known to be wrong on many occasions.
So, no. That ain't proof.

Because mages can't become members of the Chantry. That's made clear in the Magi Origin. Even the unnamed blood mage who asks for mercy can't become a member of the Chantry, as pointed out by Alistair, who was raised by the Chantry and nearly became a templar. I didn't say with certainty that the templars killed the children, but it's certainly a possibility. Do you have proof that they don't kill the child? I'd warrant that you don't. That's the entire point. So far, none of us know what happens to them. What we do know is that Wynne's apprentice Aneirin was nearly killed by the templars (who thought they killed him, and he was only fourteen years old), the templar Cullen makes it clear that he's aware that there are plenty of templars who hate mages and discuss killing them with glee, and the culling of the Circle entails murdering every man, woman, and child of the Circle tower. Even Senior Enchanter Wynne didn't know what happened to her son. Again, for all we know, the Chantry culls the children of mages.

A) not all children of mages are mages. It seems ot be sorta a genetic lottery.
if oyu have no proof, then you cna't claim they kill children. And again - why would they? They gather mages in the tower to train them, so why kill a mage baby. It makes far more sense to raise it, thus getting a mage that is fully educated by you from ground up.

People probably detest the Chantry because of what's resulted from them - the destruction of the Dales, the oppression of the mages, sanctioning the occupation of Ferelden that lead to the rape and murder of countless people, and forcing their religion throughout Thedas. Even your point was about how the Chantry steals the children from mages, and plenty of people have argued that it's wrong of them to do so, regardless of how they want to rationalize it.

Thank you for proving my point. Ignorance truly is bliss...the Chantry didn't destroy the dales. War between the Dales and Orlais started long before the Chantry did anything, and the dalish refusal to help turned the humans agasint them.
The "opression" of mages is largely justified.
You're also overestimating the influence religious leaders had on kings and queens. Orlais didn't need the blessing of the Chantrys to invade Ferelden.
Forcing religion? I don't see them killing unbelievers. They don't seem to force their religion any more than you do.
And the children - again, we don't know exactly why they are taken. And no, it might not be wrong, depending on why they do it. Something tells me it's not warranted, but I just don't know....yet.

Evne if it is, it's not enough to call for the utter destruction of the Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Restraint? That depends on who you think started the war. The Dalish clearly blame Orlais. Orlais blame the Dalish elves.

According to Orlais, the war started when the elves of the Dales attacked the town of Red Crossing on the day 2:9 during the Glory Age. It's entirely possible the attack was a response to a prior attack made by the Orlesians, it's impossible to say. Val Royaux is in Orlais, and Orlais forbid the practice of worshipping elven gods when they won the war. I can see why some view the Chantry as evil for what transpired; it's clear the Dalish view themselves as the wronged party.

It doesn't matter who started it.
The elven army was marching agaisnt humans, and towards the seat of the Chantry.
You're telling me the Chantry doesn't have the right to defend itself?

You realize that Uldred manages to turn senior mages into abominations during A Broken Circle? And during the Magi Origin, it's stated by Mouse that mages aren't the only ones who can become possessed. If the mages thought that Kinloch Hold wasn't a prison, Uldred and the mages who followed him wouldn't have revolted in the first place.

Uldred strikes me as a power-hungry sort. There will always be mages that lust for power, no matter how nice the circle is.

Regarding Wynnes sudent - it doesn't matter if he was 14. A mage is still dangrous. We don't know what happened when the templars coulght up with him. If he tried to fight them, then the situation is no different fro ma police officer facing a armed suspect - justified use of deadly force.

[Lotion Soronarr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Yeah, I see their advantages, but I also see their disadvantages. Being ruled by logic completely is not neccesarily a good thing. The problem being that logic is not universal. While one might see the logical solution as solving the problem another would see the logical answer is to prevent the problem. If you catch my drift. And when two schools of logic collide blackholes are made

You make a good point. A tranquil might end up being worse than a Templar, simply because he will have no remorse or guilt...We see Gregoir not wanting to use the Right of annulment, we see him being happy that Irwing survived..he almost breaks down and cries at one point - that alone causes him to reconsider.

[Lotion Soronarr]

RazorrX wrote...

Okay I said the group to hunt mages and/or abominations should be a mixed group to prevent needless killing,etc.
The rebuttal was that an abomination could convert the 3 mages so it needs to be 6 templars. Thus no oversight and you have what we have today.

Templars have oversight...they answer to the Seekers and the Chantry.
Not exactly what you'd like...but it's similar to asking civilians to acompany police officers on arrests, to make sure there is oversight.

THERE IS NO PERFECT OVERSIGHT.

IF an abomination is SO powerful as to dwarf the power of uldred, who was able to take out all the templars in the tower, the fact that here are 3 and 3 is a moot issue, as a group of 6 templars are dead anyway.
The fact is it takes time to beat down/wear down a mages resistance. As shown in the circle tower with Uldred and in the Calling with Fiona. During that time the rest of the mages should be fighting along with the templars to stop it from happening.

Uldren was no the only abomination there. He didn't subvert the tower alone .There were blood mages and other abomination, all tearing up the veil and torturing to make possesion easier.

[Daerog]

Geez. This "Chantry control over the Circle. Good or bad?" debate has really covered enough corners I think. If this thread is all about supporting or fighting the Chantry, there are many other things to cover. Like, should you support an organization that forces you to sing? Mages are like, what, 1% of the population? If not less. Why aren't people discussing the treatment of elves more. Many are still in alienages, slaves or serfs. Dalish don't count because they are lame . Why doesn't the Chantry support their nonhuman followers more? More elves than mages. Mages get pretty tower, elves get gutter. In Thedas, I'd rather be a mage than an elf.

Just to restate my reply to this thread, I actually support the Chantry in my canon playthroughs.

[Riona45]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Geez. This "Chantry control over the Circle. Good or bad?" debate has really covered enough corners I think. If this thread is all about supporting or fighting the Chantry, there are many other things to cover. Like, should you support an organization that forces you to sing? Mages are like, what, 1% of the population? If not less.

So?  Obviously people have mage PCs and for some reason are attracted to this topic.  I agree that it's been done to death, but I don't see the point in suggesting that people talk about a different topic that they aren't as interested in just because you don't think it's been covered more. 

[BroBear Berbil]

Oh the poor mages, boo hoo. They're constantly watched because of a few bad apples and it's soooooo unfair. Broken Circle should have been proof enough that there were plenty of mages in just Ferelden's circle that were willing to turn to dark powers to get what they wanted.



I like the Chantry. I get that a lot of people don't but the Chantry's relationship with mages and the way they use lyrium in regards to templars seems like it would be the least important thing for people to hate them for.



The *only* thing I can find fault with the Chantry is the Dales. Then again, their faith gives a mandate to spread the chant to all corners of the world to receive the Maker's forgiveness.