1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Yaskaleh]

The chantry is just the symptom, humanity is the disease. If not for humanity Thedas would be a tranquil place ruled by the benevolent and immortal elves. If not for humanity the darkspawn wouldn't exist to destroy the dwarven underworld. If I could I'd play Hawke as a traitor to his own people. He would rally the elves and the dwarves along with the few enligthened humans who are able to grasp his vision and drive the rest of the humans back into the ocean together with the Qunari invaders. Glory to the natives of Thedas!

Modifié par Yaskaleh, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:16 .

[nightcobra]

Yaskaleh wrote...

The chantry is just the symptom, humanity is the disease. If not for humanity Thedas would be a tranquil place ruled by the benevolent and immortal elves. If not for humanity the darkspawn wouldn't exist to destroy the dwarven underworld. If I could I'd play Hawke as a traitor to his own people. He would rally the elves and the dwarves along with the few enligthened humans to be able to grasp his vision and drive the rest of the humans back into the ocean together with the Qunari invaders. Glory to the natives of Thedas!

benevolent? that's a good one.

power ultimately corrupts anyone, even the elves/dwarves and any other sentient race out there.

[Yaskaleh]

I wrote benevolent as the didn't face the invading humans with hostility but with offerings of friendship and trade until their immortality disappeared and they withdrew which gave the warmongering humans a "reason"to attack and destroy the Arlathan elves.

[Yaskaleh]

Doublepost

Modifié par Yaskaleh, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:32 .

[zahra]

I want to go on a date with the Chantry and say I had a lovely time and then promise to call but I won't.

[Everwarden]

OnionXI wrote...

Oh the poor mages, boo hoo. They're constantly watched because of a few bad apples and it's soooooo unfair. Broken Circle should have been proof enough that there were plenty of mages in just Ferelden's circle that were willing to turn to dark powers to get what they wanted.

I'm sure a lot of slaves would turn to murder (which is almost universally considered evil) to be free, and few would blame them. "What they wanted"? Well, that's an interesting way to frame it, considering "what they wanted" was to be treated like people.

Then again, their faith gives a mandate to spread the chant to all corners of the world to receive the Maker's forgiveness.

That isn't a good thing. Especially when it leads to persecution and violence.

Modifié par Everwarden, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[Chris Readman]

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, but it was Wynne who wanted to go out and Irving just gave the permission, that was all what was needed. Don't make assumption that others could not do same if it's needed. It's just easyer for Chantry if all mages are in one place, but it's not some absolute situation, like word prison means. Think about like modern word army. When you are in army to be trained, you can't just go out when you want. But with permission you can.

The army isn't a nice place either, trust me. In fact, this is worse than an army because the conscription is 100% as long as you have magical powers, no matter whether there is a war or not. You wouldn't like being forced into the army, would you? Many people do in fact think that the army is a prison of sorts, metaphorically speaking.

Also, you are making a huge assumption just based on Wynne as well. She is a person with a very high standing among both the templers and the high enchanters, so obviously she will have benefits that many MANY mages won't have. So wouldn't you say that the tower is a prison for anyone else below her standing? Also, take into account her age, she's like 60 at least. Don't tell me that the 60 years it takes to reach her position would not feel like a prison to other mages.

I think you mentioned something about passing the Harrowing and them gaining more freedom after it. You don't have proof of that, it just says that after passing the Harrowing, they become official members of the Circle, which can mean anything. It seems to me that someone like Anders would pass the Harrowing, but he's still been chased down by templers.

[Lumikki]

Maybe I assume too much, but so do you. If you want to think it as prison be free to do so, but I don't. It's all in eyes of how you look situations.

Why Chantry exist and watch mages behaviors, because mages has be broven multible times to be too dangerous to be totally free. I played mage only in DAO and did understand perfectly why Chantry is needed. I even did understand why killing mages was necassary.

As hunting Apostate and blood mages. If you don't know why it's done, then you don't really understand why Chantry exists.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 septembre 2010 - 12:27 .

[Chris Readman]

I never denied the need for the Chantry, I totally support some of the rules put in place. Evil mages and abominations need to die for the sake of the people, no disagreements here.

But look at how far they have taken it, being cooped up in the building is definitely no fun at all, and that's the least of their problems.

Yeah, there is a need to hunt down apostates who escape from the tower and retrieve them, but trying to kill them when they've done no real harm to anyone else? Look at the templars and their overzealous behaviour bred by ignorance; Cullen from the Broken Circle quest was willing to kill every single mage for a few bad seeds, the lady templar from Awakening just wanted Anders dead even when she had little proof of his guilt for the other templars deaths.

Yes, we need the police, but in this case, who is policing the templars and their actions when they are deemed as the ultimate decision makers most of the time?

You also fail to recognise that the oppression was the catalyst for the disaster at the tower in the first place. No oppression, and Uldred would have little to use when it comes to rallying other mages.

[Rake21]

MariSkep wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...

I never denied the need for the Chantry, I totally support some of the rules put in place. Evil mages and abominations need to die for the sake of the people, no disagreements here.
But look at how far they have taken it, being cooped up in the building is definitely no fun at all, and that's the least of their problems. 

It goes even past that. The Chantry even limits exploring dead bodies (even for autopsies and medical purposes) because of it's fear of blood magic. Their aversion to magic is way beyond what's called for in dealing with the potential of abominations. And even then their expertly trained force can't even handle a small outbreak without resorting to Annulment.

I don't know if I'd call what happened in the Tower a "small outbreak".  That struck me as full-on, worst-case, we're-boned situation.

[Lumikki]

MariSkep wrote...

It's a prison.

Now lets make assumption that Tower is prison to every mage for life. Because that is your assumption, because been a mage is what has put you there. That would mean that allmost every mage will live and die there and never get out.

Now question is, if it is so, why let mages learn magic or even be alive, if they life has no purpose other than be inside this tower. It doesn't make any sense. It would be just more efficient kill every born mage child and have no tower in first place. ONLY reason to allow mages learn magic is that they have ability use magic outside the tower. You understand the logic?

Meaning if you just want to keep people alive, you don't have to teach them to become dangerous.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:32 .

[Rake21]

MariSkep wrote...


When you speak to Gregoir he tells you they were only prepared to handle one or two abominations. I wasn't referring to the outbreak in the Circle Tower. If all those Templars ould only be counted on to handle a couple of abominations it means they really can't be trusted to watch over the mages.

I think what he meant was that they didn't expect some nut case to rip open the Veil and suddenly they have a few dozen abominations to deal with. 

Now, should they have planned for something that?  Oh, hell yeah.  I wasn't necessarily surprised by what was happening in the Tower, but it still kinda pissed me off.

They're not exactly the most dependable folks, I was just saying that the Tower fiasco wasn't a small problem.

[Chris Readman]

MariSkep wrote...
It goes even past that. The Chantry even limits exploring dead bodies (even for autopsies and medical purposes) because of it's fear of blood magic. Their aversion to magic is way beyond what's called for in dealing with the potential of abominations. And even then their expertly trained force can't even handle a small outbreak without resorting to Annulment.

Ah yes, exactly another one of my points that I forgot to mention, if the Chantry and templars are so necessary in this world, there seriously needs to be an explanation for their incompetence in the situation they were supposedly there for.

And something needs to be said about the stagnation of knowledge that the Chantry is promoting. Their solution is just "spread the chant, and the world will be saved", which is frankly not at all realistic in both the expected results and process they undertake. When people just choose to believe in the Chantry and do nothing else, they don't solve any new problems. Maybe a better way to prevent abominations that could have been studied, as opposed to blind faith in the Chantry's current system.

[Kushiel112233]

The Chantry is made up of people like all religions. There are good people, stupid people, smart people, bad people, corrupt, innocent, etc... The Chantry itself seems to be based on helping others and there are those worth believing in good individuals who place follow the Chantry's core ideals while their are those who are to zealous in their beliefs or out right twist them for their own power

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...
Obviously forced incarceration, stealing people's children, forcing demons into young children and then murdering them when they fail ect, aren't reasons to feel disdain for an organisation.

I wonder if the city elves situation is enough to warrant contempt for the existing power structure.

Forced incineration is NEEDED. You can't have amges running around everywhere. The word CONTAINMENT spring to mind? How do you contain abominations creating whole armies, and destroying the countryside (look at Redcliffe..how many children died there?) if they are not grouped, but spread around?

The Harrowing, IIRC, is a old ritual made by the mages themselves, not the Chantry. A mage WILL face a demon - but the Circle gives mages a good chance of surviving it, by training them and doing it in a controled enviroment.
And yes, the templars will cut down a amge that turns into an abomination. The mage is already gone at that point, and even if he can be recovered, it's not worth the risk. Abominations kill other mages too.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Yeah, there is a need to hunt down apostates who escape from the tower
and retrieve them, but trying to kill them when they've done no real
harm to anyone else? Look at the templars and their overzealous
behaviour bred by ignorance; Cullen from the Broken Circle quest was
willing to kill every single mage for a few bad seeds, the lady templar
from Awakening just wanted Anders dead even when she had little proof
of his guilt for the other templars deaths.

Yes, we need the police, but in this case, who is policing the templars
and their actions when they are deemed as the ultimate decision makers
most of the time?

Tempars are liek an army - in the field, the highest ranking one makes the decisions. Potantial for abuse? Sure, but there' no way to go around it.
Do templar kill apostates tehy are sent after? Sometimes, sure..I'm pretty sure a lot of the mages resist, and in that case it's kill or be killed.

And Cullen wanting to anull the tower? Drastic measure, but not unwarranted. Not my first choice, but the reasoning behind it holds water. The veil was weakend and very powerful abominations were present. The danger of more dormant abomination is very real in such circumstances.


Also, prison is an apt word.
After all to those under quarantene, the quarantene area IS a prison.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

When you speak to Gregoir he tells you they were only prepared to handle one or two abominations. I wasn't referring to the outbreak in the Circle Tower. If all those Templars ould only be counted on to handle a couple of abominations it means they really can't be trusted to watch over the mages.

That's callled story and gameplay segragation.
Fluff-wise, Abominations are terrifying, capable of taking out a squad of templars.
In-game, they, for a player templar they are a push-over. Don't read too much it.

I think what he meant was that they didn't expect some nut case to
rip open the Veil and suddenly they have a few dozen abominations to
deal with. 

Now, should they have planned for something that? 
Oh, hell yeah.  I wasn't necessarily surprised by what was happening in
the Tower, but it still kinda pissed me off.

The massive doors and the Right of Anullment are the plan for that.

But again..in order for the palyer to be awesome, most game make everyone else useless.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

I'm surprised any civilizations exist at all then. If free mages equal the destruction of the world as we know it you'd think the number of already free mages, the Dalish Keepers, the hedge mages from other cultures ect would have wiped out every living thing on the planet.

The number of hedge mages is small compared to that of the mages in the circle. Even with that in mind, there are abominations runnign around - and who is there to stop them? Templars. Now what if they weren't there? Redcliffe x 100

And other cultures? Qunari chain their mages and take out their tounges.

Either way it's the Templars who call the shots and force the mages to either undertake the Harrowing, have all their feelings stripped from them or die. My point stands.

No it doesn't. A mage will face a demon ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. The more powerfull a mage, the more the demons will come after it.
Sending a mage out in the world, without any preparation or test, is like sending your child out in the dirty streets, without ever exposing it to any filth or bacteria..basicly with a unprepared immune system.