1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

You're comparison doesn't hold water. We're not talking about a platoon sergeant in the field leading his men. We're talking about sending out an individual with a cler bias against the person he's sent after. Think of this way, would you rely on someone who subscribes to fundamentalist Islam (like the kind practiced by terrorist cells) to investigate a rape? Of course not. He's not going to do it right and won't even realize he's being biased.

What? You mean like sending your soliders to capture an enemy commander? The commadner belonging to the same faction you've been basicly at war for as long as you know, who claimed a lot of your friends?
I'd say it holds water.

As for templars hating mages...we've seen just as many templars that are civil towards mages. It's more of an individual issue than anything else. Also, it is prefered if templars bring in a mage in alive.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

When you speak to Gregoir he tells you they were only prepared to handle one or two abominations. I wasn't referring to the outbreak in the Circle Tower. If all those Templars ould only be counted on to handle a couple of abominations it means they really can't be trusted to watch over the mages.

That's callled story and gameplay segragation.
Fluff-wise, Abominations are terrifying, capable of taking out a squad of templars.
In-game, they, for a player templar they are a push-over. Don't read too much it.

You completely misunderstand my point but whatever. The Templars are supposed to be experts at dealing with mges and abominations. There's no excuse for them to be overwhelmed so easily when they're supposed to be the best of the best at this. I don't care how my Warden held up against them. 

I think what he meant was that they didn't expect some nut case to
rip open the Veil and suddenly they have a few dozen abominations to
deal with. 

Now, should they have planned for something that? 
Oh, hell yeah.  I wasn't necessarily surprised by what was happening in
the Tower, but it still kinda pissed me off.

The massive doors and the Right of Anullment are the plan for that.

But again..in order for the palyer to be awesome, most game make everyone else useless.

If your plan B is kill everything in the Tower you obviously don't have any level of real control over the situation and could just as easily be replaced by a handful of soldiers there to shut the doors and hang back until the Rite arrives.

YOu dont get it do you? Fluffwise abominations are terrible beings able to kill entire squads of Templars, they are however thankfully rare (in no small part due to the training mages recieve at the circle). No one ever expected it going from "another day at the tower" to "total ****storm" in a matter of minutes. THey are fully prepared to take out a single abomination not dozens at the same time.

[Chris Readman]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tempars are liek an army - in the field, the highest ranking one makes the decisions. Potantial for abuse? Sure, but there' no way to go around it.
Do templar kill apostates tehy are sent after? Sometimes, sure..I'm pretty sure a lot of the mages resist, and in that case it's kill or be killed.

And Cullen wanting to anull the tower? Drastic measure, but not unwarranted. Not my first choice, but the reasoning behind it holds water. The veil was weakend and very powerful abominations were present. The danger of more dormant abomination is very real in such circumstances.

The highest does not make the decision most of the time as you can plainly see. The individual templars tend to make their own emotional judgement and get carried away. Case in point, lady templar who is always after Anders.

What about Anerim's case? He couldn't have been resisting too much since there was no indication of casualties from the Templars' side, plus from what we've seen of his personality.

Also, Cullen's opinion on anullment is based on his emotionally distraught state, hardly a fair judgement. His choice to destroy all the mages can be compared to killing all men in the world to prevent rape. There were abominations, they were all killed, no point in killing the rest of the mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Chris Readman wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tempars are liek an army - in the field, the highest ranking one makes the decisions. Potantial for abuse? Sure, but there' no way to go around it.
Do templar kill apostates tehy are sent after? Sometimes, sure..I'm pretty sure a lot of the mages resist, and in that case it's kill or be killed.

And Cullen wanting to anull the tower? Drastic measure, but not unwarranted. Not my first choice, but the reasoning behind it holds water. The veil was weakend and very powerful abominations were present. The danger of more dormant abomination is very real in such circumstances.

The highest does not make the decision most of the time as you can plainly see. The individual templars tend to make their own emotional judgement and get carried away. Case in point, lady templar who is always after Anders.

What about Anerim's case? He couldn't have been resisting too much since there was no indication of casualties from the Templars' side, plus from what we've seen of his personality.

Also, Cullen's opinion on anullment is based on his emotionally distraught state, hardly a fair judgement. His choice to destroy all the mages can be compared to killing all men in the world to prevent rape. There were abominations, they were all killed, no point in killing the rest of the mages.

Except for the simple fact that you don't know which of the mages is a blood mage or if there is a demon latent within one of them. The annulment was fully justifiable in the situation.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 septembre 2010 - 02:19 .

[Chris Readman]

Lumikki wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

It's a prison.

Now lets make assumption that Tower is prison to every mage for life. Because that is your assumption, because been a mage is what has put you there. That would mean that allmost every mage will live and die there and never get out.

Now question is, if it is so, why let mages learn magic or even be alive, if they life has no purpose other than be inside this tower. It doesn't make any sense. It would be just more efficient kill every born mage child and have no tower in first place. ONLY reason to allow mages learn magic is that they have ability use magic outside the tower. You understand the logic?

Meaning if you just want to keep people alive, you don't have to teach them to become dangerous.

Wait what? You are aware that a whole bunch of people don't stay in prison for life, aren't you? Maybe I've misunderstood your phrasing, but that first argument didn't really make sense.

Where are your examples of mages using magic outside the tower? There are so few examples, and most of the mages I remember who use magic outside the tower are apostates, Dalish or from the cult.

If you ask me, mages are taught magic for one simple reason, so that they can be used as weapons. Weapons that people can use to fight against threats, such as the blight. The idea is very dehumanising is it not?

[Chris Readman]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except for the simple fact that you don't know which of the mages is a blood mage or if there is a demon latent within one of them. The annulment was fully justifiable in the situation.

Firstly, I don't think blood magic itself isn't evil, it's the usage of it that has the potential to be evil.

Secondly, even if there is one demon latent within a mage, shouldn't there be ways to detect this? The templars seem to be very aware of mages and their state of demonic possession after the Harrowing, what's to stop them from using the same method?

[Lumikki]

Chris Readman wrote...

Wait what? You are aware that a whole bunch of people don't stay in prison for life, aren't you? Maybe I've misunderstood your phrasing, but that first argument didn't really make sense.

Of course, but as long you are mage with magic powers, been mage is the sentence for life, there is no end of that sentense. Only way to get out of it, would be give out of you mage power, what would be same as become Tranquil. That is option to given, if you want that.

Where are your examples of mages using magic outside the tower? There are so few examples, and most of the mages I remember who use magic outside the tower are apostates, Dalish or from the cult.

If you ask me, mages are taught magic for one simple reason, so that they can be used as weapons. Weapons that people can use to fight against threats, such as the blight. The idea is very dehumanising is it not?

Yes, same as example from real world. We put dangerous criminals to prison, because they are treath to society. Now of course, when those criminals are in prison, we teach them to better use of riffles, machine guns, explosive, raping, cutting heads off and combat in general. Making them more dangerous, because after that teaching they become better member of society or be usefull tools.  Does this make any sense to you?

You say this happens because we gonna use them. Are you so stupid that you would not except them to become problem?

Or could it be that your assumption what Circle of Mages really are, is not accurate. I don't say that mages aren't limited by they freedom, but it's not really prison in sense what prison means. It's more like military academy where mages are taken care and teached to use they gifts. If there is no life outside the tower for them EVER, there is no point to teach anything to mages or any mages would not even accept the life what's given for them.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Sir JK]

Kushiel112233 wrote...

The Chantry is made up of people like all religions. There are good people, stupid people, smart people, bad people, corrupt, innocent, etc... The Chantry itself seems to be based on helping others and there are those worth believing in good individuals who place follow the Chantry's core ideals while their are those who are to zealous in their beliefs or out right twist them for their own power

Well said.

---

Also, I'd like to address the issue of calling the circles a prison. Remember that most of the world are similarly limited in their freedom... the templars can't chose what to do either. They have to stay there and watch the mages/hunt apostates/guard the chantries. Going AWOL is a death sentence for them too (it's a crime called desertion no less. Summary execution if caught) Same thing for soldiers.
A peasant can't just decide to take a vacation... if he doesn't perform his tithe or work his fields the noble will punish him or his crops will die. Most of the citydwellers have to work hard every day to pay for the food on the table.
Nobles rise before dawn to practise until dusk, only interreupted by fun things like politics or court duty. Leaving your duties for whatever reason will be severly punished by family... and if you're unlucky by your lord. Oh, and lets not forget that most of them won't get to choose who to marry, but it will be a business deal with another family.
The clergy also have a life where they're locked into their duties. Dull food, a uniform, a strict schedule for each day and strict rules against any form of relationship.

None of those can really do what mages cannot. Are they imprisoned too? Most of them will barely be ten years old when their life is decided for them.

In some ways,mages are protected from much of the horrors of life.
They don't have to starve like peasants.
They aren't forced into living in the filth of military camps like soldiers.
They're lives aren't business deals and bloody politics like nobles (who also have compulsory military duties).
They're not sent to barbarian lands as missionaries or forced to deal with the sick and diseased like the clergy.
They're not forced to watch over and control the most dangerous things in the world like templars.

[Chris Readman]

Lumikki wrote...

Of course, but as long you are mage with magic powers, been mage is the sentence for life, there is no end of that sentense. Only way to get out of it, would be give out of you mage power, what would be same as become Tranquil. That is option to given, if you want that.

Yes, same as example from real world. We put dangerous criminals to prison, because they are treath to society. Now of course, when those criminals are in prison, we teach them to better use of riffles, machine guns, explosive, raping, cutting heads off and combat in general. Making them more dangerous, because after that teaching they become better member of society or be usefull tools.  Does this make any sense to you?

You say this happens because we gonna use them. Are you so stupid that you would not except them to become problem?

Yeah, but there are people with anger management issues and violent tendencies, these issues don't disappear, but they get released from prisons all the time, and more often than not, they end up commiting the same crimes over an over again.

Oh, so you're finally seeing the point here are you not? Let's just ignore the plain disrespect for my intelligence in that last part here, along with your slippery slope arguments. The point is, mages are not criminals just because they were born the way they were! So why should they be put in a similar situation? Note that I've used the word SIMILAR, not SAME.

And haven't you heard that they use prisoners for labour? It's not weapon training, but it's still cramming them in an enclosed place and making use of them. Wait, this situation sounds familiar, it's just like the mage tower!

[Lumikki]

Chris Readman wrote...

And haven't you heard that they use prisoners for labour? It's not weapon training, but it's still cramming them in an enclosed place and making use of them. Wait, this situation sounds familiar, it's just like the mage tower!

What prison is run by the prisoners them self. Because after the harrowing the power of control is on mage of circle, not on Chantry. You think Irving is prisoner or using younger mages as labor?

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 septembre 2010 - 02:50 .

[Sir JK]

MariSkep wrote...

Sir JK

That's some pretty lousy rationalizing.

Would you mind elaborating?

[Lumikki]

Sir JK wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Sir JK

That's some pretty lousy rationalizing.

Would you mind elaborating?

I think, he means where you see it as safe haven for mages, because there are worst in life. He sees it as prison what is restricting mages from everyones rights of freedom. It's little different way to look situations.

[ErichHartmann]

Could be worse, the Qunari cut out mages tongues.

[Chris Readman]

Lumikki wrote...

What prison is run by the prisoners them self. Because after the harrowing the power of control is on mage of circle, not on Chantry. You think Irving is prisoner or using younger mages as labor?

I see that you are stuck on the definition of prison. What part of metaphorical don't you understand? It's not a literal prison with bars, but it is pretty close. Guards, enclosed space, restricted freedom, a gazillion rules that don't apply to other people.

Irving is as much a prisoner as he is the warden, sure he runs the Circle, but he doesn't make the rules does he? He himself longs for the freedom that the other mages. At the end of the game, when you ask for for the freedom of the mages from the chantry, I don't think Irving look the gift horse in the mouth.

[Chris Readman]

Double post, ignore.

Modifié par Chris Readman, 17 septembre 2010 - 03:11 .

[Sir JK]

Lumikki: Hmmm... I'm not sure that was my point at all. The circles restrict the life of mages a lot, yes. But everyone is similarily restricted. Noone gets to decide what to do with their time, only how they'll spend it to perform their duties/feed themselves.

Imagine the shock mages would have if they finally "free" themselves... only to find that they now have to spend every waking hour working to pay for food, shelter and lyrium? So much that they'd barely have time to even practise their skills? To escape the "prison"... only to find that it gave them more freedom to spend their time than life in a mediveal world does?

Granted... I'll concede to the point that most others don't have to fear someone will take their children away (only clergy and nobles would have to worry about that, the former for the same reason as mages, that it's against the rules, and the latter because of political assassinations/taking of hostages)

MariSkep: Fair enough, but you can't really invalidate my arguments if you don't debate them and explain why they're poor reasoning

Oh, and the Qunari cut out the tounges of mages so that rebellious/possessed ones cannot do what Uldred did and recruit more to their cause.

Modifié par Sir JK, 17 septembre 2010 - 03:17 .

[Lumikki]

Chris Readman wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

What prison is run by the prisoners them self. Because after the harrowing the power of control is on mage of circle, not on Chantry. You think Irving is prisoner or using younger mages as labor?

I see that you are stuck on the definition of prison. What part of metaphorical don't you understand? It's not a literal prison with bars, but it is pretty close. Guards, enclosed space, restricted freedom, a gazillion rules that don't apply to other people.

That's why I used terms like monestry or armi, because it's more closer what it really is. It's closed society what is there because it present treath to others, but same time it also protects those who are in and teach them to use they gifts. Yes, there are guards, because they are necessarity.

Irving is as much a prisoner as he is the warden, sure he runs the Circle, but he doesn't make the rules does he? He himself longs for the freedom that the other mages.

Yes, but he is there because he wants to help other mages and he does make the calls, not Chantry. How ever, there are limits what Irving may do as there is limit what Chantry can do.

At the end of the game, when you ask for for the freedom of the mages from the chantry, I don't think Irving look the gift horse in the mouth.

I never asked it in end, because I wasn't stupid enough to ask something what would make mages life worst. If You understand why things are how they are, you would not ask it. I may have asked something else to mages, if there would be that possibility, but there wasn't.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 septembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[Chris Readman]

Lumikki wrote...

I never asked it in end, because I wasn't stupid enough to ask something what would make mages life worst. If You understand why things are how they are, you would not ask it.

It wasn't very good with the current system either. Look at what it caused: Oppression leading to rebellion, lack of ability in handling this rebellion, templars who are corrupt running around killing mages and randomly labeling them maleficarum.

My point is that the current system is definitely not the most efficient system. There are other systems which apparently work for others, the Dalish for example, you cannot ignore that.

And if you want to stick to the current system, major changes need to be made about it. You've seen what the lack of freedom has caused, therefore limit the freedom, but don't take it all away. Templars are currently the only "police", to quote one of my favourite comics "who watches the watchmen?", make sure there's a regulating body to keep things in check. And obviously devise a more efficient and humane response to emergencies, as opposed to killing them all with fire.