1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Yes, I do agree that some changed would be good and lack of freedom creates problems. How ever, too much freedom can be as big problem. I was my self thinking more like boarding school system, where vacations from the places is possible, even if it would guarded with templars.

[Chris Readman]

It appears that we've come to some form of an agreement.

But if I were a mage in the game, and no other solution presented itself, I'd probably still fight the Chantry for my freedom, out of self-interest of course.

[Marzillius]

Fight those bastards. They destroy historical artifacts because they consider them "unholy" and "heretical". They over-suppress the use of magic. They conduct Exalted Marches. They are basically a worse version of the Catholic Church.

[Werewolf2010]

 Help. Keep those damned mages from stupidly summoning demons every time they have a hissy fit over nothing. Ruining peoples lives forever and going crazy with murderous powers every time you are a little depressed is a good reason for a kick in the pants as far as I'm concerned. 

Modifié par Werewolf2010, 17 septembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Chris Readman]

Werewolf2010 wrote...

 Help. Keep those damned mages from stupidly summoning demons every time they have a hissy fit over nothing. Ruining peoples lives forever and going crazy with murderous powers every time you are a little depressed is a good reason for a kick in the pants as far as I'm concerned. 

Oh, and waving a sword around and murdering other people is not a good reason for a kick in the pants?

And when has a mage ever had a "hissy fit" which resulted in summoning demons? And who specifically got "a little depressed" and went crazy?

[Werewolf2010]

Javen. Conner. or anybody else according to Wynne. One emotion slip sends them to abomination-land. And I resent that. I only murder the people trying to go on murdering other people not because my daddy got sick or my because I got bad test scores or because I hate "the man". Sure, the chantry is full of jerks, but they usually don't grow horns and slaughter everybody because of a bad day...they do it after several years of bad days or when a mage they are watching turns their heads 180 and try to eat them.

[Werewolf2010]

Hmmm...really? Conner agreed to it. Wynne said it happened if they slipped emotionally and the mages who were tortured were only tortured because they had been taught self control years of it and the demons were trying to get them to slip...into the dark side. Again, I don't like the chantry, because sometimes some followers use their own religion to act like jerks...but they have forced the mages into a society were they are taught mental defenses and they provided help to the needy. That's why I side with them most of the time.

Modifié par Werewolf2010, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Lumikki]

Connor accepted demon by his own free will, because it was deal to save his father about dying in poison. Of course he was just little boy who did not know any better what the deal really did mean.

Jowan other had was babling with forbitten magic even if he know what the consequences where. Blood magic was only reason the Chantry was after him in first place. In simple nice way to say Jowan was idiot. Other more better question is why is blood magic treated so hard ways by Chantry. Yeah, we know it corrupts, but why so hard punisment.

As for Uldred, he was total power hunger idiot, who was using blood magic and demons to take over Circle of Mage. Thinking that Chantry would just let it be. How stupid someone can be. As for other mages in Uldred side, they fight for freedom as long it was just blood magic, but when Uldred turned to demons they also started to fight agaist they lives agaist Uldred. As for captured and badly tortured mages who cave up, I would say human can't take torturer just so long before breaking.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 septembre 2010 - 06:50 .

[Archereon]

Lumikki wrote...

Connor accepted demon by his own free will, because it was deal to save his father about dying in poison. Of course he was just little boy who did not know any better what the deal really did mean.

Jowan other had was babling with forbitten magic even if he know what the consequences where. Blood magic was only reason the Chantry was after him in first place. In simple nice way to say Jowan was idiot. Other more better question is why is blood magic treated so hard ways by Chantry. Yeah, we know it corrupts, but why so hard punisment.

As for Uldred, he was total power hunger idiot, who was using blood magic and demons to take over Circle of Mage. Thinking that Chantry would just let it be. How stupid someone can be. As for other mages in Uldred side, they fight for freedom as long it was just blood magic, but when Uldred turned to demons they also started to fight agaist they lives agaist Uldred. As for captured and badly tortured mages who cave up, I would say human can't take torturer just so long before breaking.

The biggest problem there is Connor.  He accepted a deal with a demon because he didn't know any better, which is exactly why the Circle of magi exists.  It may not need the Chantry to big brother its every move, but the templars, or some equivelent force, someone to deal with possessed and malicious mages, is an absolute necesity.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lumikki wrote...

Uldred was radical who wanted more power, not just freedom. Mage can leave tower if first enchanger Irving gives permission, other ways 7 mage would not been outside of tower. Even Uldred was outside of Tower. Yes, If you run from Circle of Mage, you become Apostate, but if you ask permission you are not. This is because Chantry needs keep track every mage as where they are and what they do. How ever, Irving deside where mages are. If you have good reason to go somewhere else than Tower, then just ask. That's what Wynne did.[/quote]

The Circle is a prison. The debate that transpires in the Magi Origin is over the fact that mages are actually being allowed outside the tower, and the possible implications of that (as Duncan makes clear to a Magi Warden who asks him why the argument happened).

Why do you think he wanted more power? Uldred wanted the Circle to be free from the Chantry, that was the deal with Loghain. First Enchanter Irving would still have remained in charge; Uldred only attacked the Circle when Wynne revealed what happened at Ostagar.

[quote]Lumikki wrote...

Maybe I assume too much, but so do you. If you want to think it as prison be free to do so, but I don't. It's all in eyes of how you look situations.

Why Chantry exist and watch mages behaviors, because mages has be broven multible times to be too dangerous to be totally free. I played mage only in DAO and did understand perfectly why Chantry is needed. I even did understand why killing mages was necassary.

As hunting Apostate and blood mages. If you don't know why it's done, then you don't really understand why Chantry exists. [/quote]

The Chantry exists because people in power proclaim that their power is divine right (like the Divine herself). Pretending that the Chantry is an altruistic institution ignores that they turn templars into drug addicts and imprison people for being mages (not to mention stealing their children).

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

First Enchanter Irving was convinced that if Uldred wasn't stopped, he would eliminate the remaining templars and threaten all of Ferelden.[/quote]

And Loghain was convinced there was no real blight. Cailan was convinced they would win at Ostagar.
People have known to be wrong on many occasions.
So, no. That ain't proof. [/quote]

Actually, in RtO, it's said that Cailan knew he would lose Ostagar. As for Loghain, you're referencing a man who makes mistake after mistake - including the enslavement of elves. Irving actually witnesses what the abomination Uldred is doing and knows what's being planned by Uldred.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Because mages can't become members of the Chantry. That's made clear in the Magi Origin. Even the unnamed blood mage who asks for mercy can't become a member of the Chantry, as pointed out by Alistair, who was raised by the Chantry and nearly became a templar. I didn't say with certainty that the templars killed the children, but it's certainly a possibility. Do you have proof that they don't kill the child? I'd warrant that you don't. That's the entire point. So far, none of us know what happens to them. What we do know is that Wynne's apprentice Aneirin was nearly killed by the templars (who thought they killed him, and he was only fourteen years old), the templar Cullen makes it clear that he's aware that there are plenty of templars who hate mages and discuss killing them with glee, and the culling of the Circle entails murdering every man, woman, and child of the Circle tower. Even Senior Enchanter Wynne didn't know what happened to her son. Again, for all we know, the Chantry culls the children of mages.[/quote]

A) not all children of mages are mages. It seems ot be sorta a genetic lottery.
if oyu have no proof, then you cna't claim they kill children. And again - why would they? They gather mages in the tower to train them, so why kill a mage baby. It makes far more sense to raise it, thus getting a mage that is fully educated by you from ground up. [/quote]

A) Isolde and Connor show that it's more likely to transpire genetically.

I said it's a possibility. If you have no proof that they aren't killed, you can't claim it's not possible.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

People probably detest the Chantry because of what's resulted from them - the destruction of the Dales, the oppression of the mages, sanctioning the occupation of Ferelden that lead to the rape and murder of countless people, and forcing their religion throughout Thedas. Even your point was about how the Chantry steals the children from mages, and plenty of people have argued that it's wrong of them to do so, regardless of how they want to rationalize it.[/quote]

Thank you for proving my point. Ignorance truly is bliss...the Chantry didn't destroy the dales. War between the Dales and Orlais started long before the Chantry did anything, and the dalish refusal to help turned the humans agasint them.
The "opression" of mages is largely justified.
You're also overestimating the influence religious leaders had on kings and queens. Orlais didn't need the blessing of the Chantrys to invade Ferelden.
Forcing religion? I don't see them killing unbelievers. They don't seem to force their religion any more than you do.
And the children - again, we don't know exactly why they are taken. And no, it might not be wrong, depending on why they do it. Something tells me it's not warranted, but I just don't know....yet.

Evne if it is, it's not enough to call for the utter destruction of the Chantry.

[/quote]

You realize the Chantry declared an Exalted March against the Dales, right?

There are people here who think that the oppression of the mages is completely unjustified.

The Chantry declared an Exalted March against the Black Divine and the Tevinter Imperium because they didn't adhere to the White Divine and the "correct religion," so how can you say they don't force religion on people? And you're assuming that the Divine and the Chantry have no influence over the people when the King and Queen bow before a member of the Chantry as part of their coronation at the end of DA:O.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Restraint? That depends on who you think started the war. The Dalish clearly blame Orlais. Orlais blame the Dalish elves.

According to Orlais, the war started when the elves of the Dales attacked the town of Red Crossing on the day 2:9 during the Glory Age. It's entirely possible the attack was a response to a prior attack made by the Orlesians, it's impossible to say. Val Royaux is in Orlais, and Orlais forbid the practice of worshipping elven gods when they won the war. I can see why some view the Chantry as evil for what transpired; it's clear the Dalish view themselves as the wronged party.[/quote]

It doesn't matter who started it.
The elven army was marching agaisnt humans, and towards the seat of the Chantry.
You're telling me the Chantry doesn't have the right to defend itself? [/quote]

I can make the same argument for the Dales - the elven army may have marched against the humans of Orlais because they were defending themselves against the invading Orlesian armies and the Chantry.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You realize that Uldred manages to turn senior mages into abominations during A Broken Circle? And during the Magi Origin, it's stated by Mouse that mages aren't the only ones who can become possessed. If the mages thought that Kinloch Hold wasn't a prison, Uldred and the mages who followed him wouldn't have revolted in the first place.[/quote]

Uldred strikes me as a power-hungry sort. There will always be mages that lust for power, no matter how nice the circle is. [/quote]

From the one scene that he has at Ostagar? The later scenes involve a transformed Uldred who is an abomination. It's virtually impossible to say what the real Uldred was like as a result.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Regarding Wynnes sudent - it doesn't matter if he was 14. A mage is still dangrous. We don't know what happened when the templars coulght up with him. If he tried to fight them, then the situation is no different fro ma police officer facing a armed suspect - justified use of deadly force.

[/quote]

Dangerous? So is a templar. A templar is still a drug addict wielding a weapon with no one to reign them when they're hunting a mage, like in Awakening (when they try to murder the Warden-Commander).


[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]Kushiel112233 wrote...

The Chantry is made up of people like all religions. There are good people, stupid people, smart people, bad people, corrupt, innocent, etc... The Chantry itself seems to be based on helping others and there are those worth believing in good individuals who place follow the Chantry's core ideals while their are those who are to zealous in their beliefs or out right twist them for their own power[/quote]

Well said.

---

Also, I'd like to address the issue of calling the circles a prison. Remember that most of the world are similarly limited in their freedom... the templars can't chose what to do either. They have to stay there and watch the mages/hunt apostates/guard the chantries. Going AWOL is a death sentence for them too (it's a crime called desertion no less. Summary execution if caught) Same thing for soldiers.
A peasant can't just decide to take a vacation... if he doesn't perform his tithe or work his fields the noble will punish him or his crops will die. Most of the citydwellers have to work hard every day to pay for the food on the table.
Nobles rise before dawn to practise until dusk, only interreupted by fun things like politics or court duty. Leaving your duties for whatever reason will be severly punished by family... and if you're unlucky by your lord. Oh, and lets not forget that most of them won't get to choose who to marry, but it will be a business deal with another family.
The clergy also have a life where they're locked into their duties. Dull food, a uniform, a strict schedule for each day and strict rules against any form of relationship.

None of those can really do what mages cannot. Are they imprisoned too? Most of them will barely be ten years old when their life is decided for them.

In some ways,mages are protected from much of the horrors of life.
They don't have to starve like peasants.
They aren't forced into living in the filth of military camps like soldiers.
They're lives aren't business deals and bloody politics like nobles (who also have compulsory military duties).
They're not sent to barbarian lands as missionaries or forced to deal with the sick and diseased like the clergy.
They're not forced to watch over and control the most dangerous things in the world like templars.
[/quote]
I don't find your comparison compelling. You're saying that, because the life of a peasant or a warrior is difficult, it's comparable to a life of a person who is imprisoned for being different? You're comparing the hardship of a life where people have the freedom to dictate their own actions to a life of a mage who can't do anything unless he or she has permission to do so? To be watched over 24/7 by drug addicts in armor who about talk about killing mages with glee... to never be able to raise your own children, to be taken away from your family, and to risk being turned into a rune crafting slave if they think you aren't strong enough to withstand a demon tricking you into giving consent to become an abomination. I don't see how anyone can say the Circle isn't a prison for mages, especially when the Magi Origin VO refers to the Circle as a prison.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Chris Readman]

Werewolf2010 wrote...

Javen. Conner. or anybody else according to Wynne. One emotion slip sends them to abomination-land. And I resent that. I only murder the people trying to go on murdering other people not because my daddy got sick or my because I got bad test scores or because I hate "the man". Sure, the chantry is full of jerks, but they usually don't grow horns and slaughter everybody because of a bad day...they do it after several years of bad days or when a mage they are watching turns their heads 180 and try to eat them.

Please, you just trivialised everything. It is not just a "slip of emotion" for most mages, it is a huge blow to the psychology, whether over time or a short period.

You would probably take up arms if "the man" made you sit in a pretty little cage everyday of your life, providing for your basic needs, but reminding you everyday that if you do anything suspicious they can and will kill you. Also note that most mages don't seem to have basic liberties, like their own rooms (lack of privacy even from other mages), maybe even choice of food. It's also like living in a authoritarian country, or one ruled by the military, do whatever you want quietly, but the moment they think you're up to something, you're gone.

Conner's case was a special one, as it was mentioned in a few posts before mine already. And note that he did not murder all the people, the demon did, different entities.

Also, I love your example of bad test scores. I mean, that totally happened, and since it happened, because it did, it totally proves your point that mages just need a bad hair day to snap and let demons possess them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

Archereon wrote...

The biggest problem there is Connor.  He accepted a deal with a demon because he didn't know any better, which is exactly why the Circle of magi exists.  It may not need the Chantry to big brother its every move, but the templars, or some equivelent force, someone to deal with possessed and malicious mages, is an absolute necesity.

I agree. I would just hope that force would actually be capable of handling an abomination or you know be competent.

You know how stupid you sound right? They are competent. Period. Your Dragon hunter comparison is  agood example. The hunters are trained to hunt single Dragons. They are not incompetent if they suddenly get ambush by 3 High Dragons and almost die to a man before they have a chance at an organized defense. They are simply overrun.
e.com/forum/%2526ot%25

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 septembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[Anderman51]

Lumikki wrote...

Jowan other had was babling with forbitten magic even if he know what the consequences where. Blood magic was only reason the Chantry was after him in first place. In simple nice way to say Jowan was idiot. Other more better question is why is blood magic treated so hard ways by Chantry. Yeah, we know it corrupts, but why so hard punisment.

They take such a hard stance on blood magic because they fear it.  In particular: blood control. 

Templar abilities can generally neutralize most mages, but blood mages can turn templars against each other.  Duncan mentions at the beginning of the mage origin that he witnessed a blood mage almost take out an entire templar tracking party on his own.  Had a templar not snuck up behind the mage he would have succeeded. 

Jowan is another example.  He had only dabbled in blood magic and he was able to take out Greagoir and a unit of templars with ease.  Imagine the damage a fully trained blood mage could unleash on the templars. 

A templar's ability to neutralize magic is their edge against mages.  If blood magic nullifies that advantage than outlaw the practice of blood magic. 

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Archereon wrote...

The biggest problem there is Connor.  He accepted a deal with a demon because he didn't know any better, which is exactly why the Circle of magi exists.  It may not need the Chantry to big brother its every move, but the templars, or some equivelent force, someone to deal with possessed and malicious mages, is an absolute necesity.

I agree. I would just hope that force would actually be capable of handling an abomination or you know be competent.

You know how stupid you sound right? They are competent. Period. Your Dragon hunter comparison is  agood example. The hunters are trained to hunt single Dragons. They are not incompetent if they suddenly get ambush by 3 High Dragons and almost die to a man before they have a chance at an organized defense. They are simply overrun.

Considering that they failed in their duty when the Uldred crisis transpired, there's an argument to be made for how competent they are. After all, the Warden is the person who resolves the crisis that the templars are incapable of handling on their own, and if the Warden is a mage, he or she has every right to see the templars as incompetent. Then again, they are competent drug addicts who enforce the theft of children from their mothers, the lobotomy of mages to become emotionless drones who live only to serve as slaves, and kill teenagers if they run away from the tower. 

Anderman51 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Jowan other had was babling with forbitten magic even if he know what the consequences where. Blood magic was only reason the Chantry was after him in first place. In simple nice way to say Jowan was idiot. Other more better question is why is blood magic treated so hard ways by Chantry. Yeah, we know it corrupts, but why so hard punisment.

They take such a hard stance on blood magic because they fear it.  In particular: blood control. 

Templar abilities can generally neutralize most mages, but blood mages can turn templars against each other.  Duncan mentions at the beginning of the mage origin that he witnessed a blood mage almost take out an entire templar tracking party on his own.  Had a templar not snuck up behind the mage he would have succeeded. 

Jowan is another example.  He had only dabbled in blood magic and he was able to take out Greagoir and a unit of templars with ease.  Imagine the damage a fully trained blood mage could unleash on the templars. 

A templar's ability to neutralize magic is their edge against mages.  If blood magic nullifies that advantage than outlaw the practice of blood magic. 

They also seem to have stamped out all other kinds of magic - even a Magi Warden has never heard of the magic that Morrigan uses to change her form.

[Sylvius the Mad]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A) Isolde and Connor show that it's more likely to transpire genetically.

One data point is not a pattern.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A) Isolde and Connor show that it's more likely to transpire genetically.

One data point is not a pattern.

Isolde mentions it runs in her family, and her daughter Rowan also turns out to be a mage.

[Chris Readman]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that they failed in their duty when the Uldred crisis transpired, there's an argument to be made for how competent they are. After all, the Warden is the person who resolves the crisis that the templars are incapable of handling on their own, and if the Warden is a mage, he or she has every right to see the templars as incompetent.

Oh... great point. And regardless of whatever class the Warden was, it doesn't change the fact that a team of 4 did whatever a whole load of templars couldn't do.

[RazorrX]

Using Conner as a bullet point for PRO chantry is kind of funny.



The Isolde - Conner thing only happened because :



A) Jowan (a blood mage on the run, saved from templars by Loghain the current regent) had poisoned his father and the young boy was not trained to resist temptation, etc. so when the demon offered a deal to save his father he took it.



and



Because Isolde was one of the faithful (a Pious woman by description) she thought of his having magic as a horrible curse and wanted to keep it hidden. See this is where the chantry fails. The mother loved her son. BUT the chantry teaches her that because he can use magic he is EVIL. EVIL I Tell you! There are abominations crawling out of his every orifice! And so the mother is torn between wanting to keep and protect her son, and dealing with the evil magic thing that is running around. If the chantry had not demonized mages so much, Isolde would have sought a reputable mage to train her son. IF the Chantry did not TAKE the child away from his family, Isolde would have willingly taken him to the circle to be trained, etc. It would be a simple fix to say that Conner simply can never inherit land or title, but could still be part of that family. But that would be reasonable, and that does not match the Chantry.



So the reason why Conner fell to a demon is because of what the Chantry teaches and how it reacts to mages.

[RazorrX]

The Uldred thing, Even Allistair says something like shutting the doors is what you do when you have failed. You shut the doors and send for help because you have failed to do all the other things you were supposed to.



So in a sense, they failed and in a sense they did what they were supposed to do (after they failed).

[Sylvius the Mad]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A) Isolde and Connor show that it's more likely to transpire genetically.

One data point is not a pattern.

Isolde mentions it runs in her family, and her daughter Rowan also turns out to be a mage.

In a pre-industrial society people believe all sorts of strange things to explain waht they see.

We don't have nearly enough evidence to draw the conclusion Isolde draws.

[mesmerizedish]

Fight the chantry? Sure, but with ideas, not swords. Protestant Reformation, not a Crusade. I wouldn't want to radically alter their fundamental tenets so much as browbeat them into realizing that they don't have a monopoly on the soul.

[Ortaya Alevli]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Isolde mentions it runs in her family, and her daughter Rowan also turns out to be a mage.

Isolde had a daughter named Rowan?

[Todd23]

Magic has to be genetic, that's why the chantry is against relationships between two mages, and why every child of Flemeth's is magical, and why the guy in Shayle's story said his family served as an arl's family of mages. But I definatly think the chantry needs restrictions, they're a big reason why the Dalish hate us, and there authority shouldn't be able to surpass that of the crown's.