1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Lock up prison? Yes, there is prison, when Jowan escaped it was sayed by Lili, but other ways I don't know what is this lock up mages to prison?

Modifié par Lumikki, 18 septembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[RazorrX]

The mage prison is even worse than the tower. Probably like the difference between a normal prison and a concentration camp. Solitary, beatings, malnutrition, etc. Notice Lilly is horrified at the thought of going.



The mage tower is a prison in that only certain mages can ever leave (this is proven in game, books, etc.).

Wilhelm was allowed to be free because he aided young prince maric during the rebellion and that was his reward.

Wynne was allowed to leave because YOU had just done the Templar's job and fixed the tower with her along side you, again it was given as a reward for her help with you. The beginning of the mage origin it even calls it a cage.

[LobselVith8]

Lumikki wrote...

Lock up prison? Yes, there is prison, when Jowan escaped it was sayed by Lili, but other ways I don't know what is this lock up mages to prison?

Kinloch Hold, to be precise. Otherwise called the Circle Tower. Where mages are forced to live under the watch of the templars. Refered to as a prison by the Duncan VO for the Magi Origin of DA:O.

And yes, Jowan fleed because Knight-Commander Greagoir determined his fate and First Enchanter Irving had no choice in the matter.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 septembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Lumikki]

Yes, but our view point now is very different than it was in middle age. My point is that what we consider in modern day as prison as taken away freedom, was not same for middle age people. In middle age like mage tower was in they perspective noble or royal castle of luxure. Prison in middle age view was nightmare in our point of view. So, when we talks word like freedom and prison, it has little different meaning in middle age as it has now in here.

Duncan is treaded like noble everywhere, his view point is very different than many commoners in streets.

Modifié par Lumikki, 18 septembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Demx]

It depends on which gives me the most side missions.

[LobselVith8]

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, but our view point now is very different than it was in middle age. My point is that what we consider in modern day as prison as taken freedom, was not same for middle age people. In middle age like mage tower was in they perspective noble or royal castle of luxure. Prison in middle age view was nightmare in our point of view. So, when we talks word like freedom, it has little different meaning in middle age as it has now in here.

Ferelden isn't the Middle Ages, it's a fictional settling that is based on medieval England, that combines historical aspects with modern ones, like the treatment of women as equals to men. So the reference of the Circle Tower as a prison is an accurate one, because that's the intent of the people who wrote the game.

[Lumikki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the reference of the Circle Tower as a prison is an accurate one, because that's the intent of the people who wrote the game.

Then let those people who wrote this game and say it here that mage tower is prison. Untill THEY say it here I don't take you word much anything. Because as far I know there is huge different between prison and restricted freedom.

[LobselVith8]

Lumikki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the reference of the Circle Tower as a prison is an accurate one, because that's the intent of the people who wrote the game.

Then let those people who wrote this game and say it here that mage tower is prison. Untill THEY say it here I don't take you word much anything. Because as far I know there is huge different between prison and restricted freedom.

They did say it... in the game. The voiceover by Duncan for the Magi Origin refers to it as a prison.

[Lumikki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the reference of the Circle Tower as a prison is an accurate one, because that's the intent of the people who wrote the game.

Then let those people who wrote this game and say it here that mage tower is prison. Untill THEY say it here I don't take you word much anything. Because as far I know there is huge different between prison and restricted freedom.

They did say it... in the game. The voiceover by Duncan for the Magi Origin refers to it as a prison.

NO THEY DID NOT SAY IT. Character in game did it from they own perspective, like you do it now here.

Modifié par Lumikki, 18 septembre 2010 - 08:43 .

[LobselVith8]

Lumikki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the reference of the Circle Tower as a prison is an accurate one, because that's the intent of the people who wrote the game.

Then let those people who wrote this game and say it here that mage tower is prison. Untill THEY say it here I don't take you word much anything. Because as far I know there is huge different between prison and restricted freedom.

They did say it... in the game. The voiceover by Duncan for the Magi Origin refers to it as a prison.

NO THEY DID NOT SAY IT. Character in game did it from they own perspective, like you do it now here.

The voiceover is establishing the setting of the origin, and it's not actually spoken by Duncan to another character in canon but to the audience. The writers are explaining the realm of DA:O through the voiceover.

[Lumikki]

It still not the company and you know it. It's like you make assumption based your own view points trying to find word to describe it. What leads that we disagree, untill the company actually says it. My point is that in game there actually is mage prison (remember what Lili sayed) and that's not the tower they talk.

Modifié par Lumikki, 18 septembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I have difficulty treating this as a serious question. Are you actually comparing how people are treated as a result of their station in life with being torn from your family and forced to live under the watch of an oppressive system? It's comparable to the Japanese-American internment camps (the "War Relocation Camps") of World War II, where you isolate people under the watch of soldiers because they're different.

I'm saying that it's not necessarily better outside the circles.
In a circle at least you have the right to eat (and good food no less), drink, get a warm bed, roof over your head, the ability to train with, be educated by and be supported by people who understand what they're going through (I imagine this is actually rather important for mages). They get to choose how to spend their time in their later studies, what schools to study and get plenty of intellectual challanges. All the lyrium they need for their experiments is also provided and paid for by the chantry.
Plus, the chantry's enforcement of political neutrality also works as a defence against the more bloody sie of politics which mages would otherwise be dragged into (they're simply too powerful not to).

Not to mention that each circle is run by a council of senior enchanters led by the first enchanter and that circle policy is decided by mages in Cumberland.

Those are all the things the chantry provides for it's circles. You might see it as a cage, but then it's a very gilded cage. I'd imagine that there's a whole lot of people who would want the kind of life the mages have... because it'd be better than theirs.

Also, the analogy with internement camps isn't a perfect one given that mages have the potential to be really dangerous. But I saw where you was coming from.

Your argument for rounding up mages under the watch of armored and armed drug addicts who take them away from their family, prevent them from having any rights, teach them to see their magic as a curse because of the myth behind the Blight, prevent them from raising children and steal their children from them at birth, and can lobotomize them at their leisure is that some people in life have it hard? Do you realize how flawed your logic is?

I was saying that the freedom the libertarians cry out for (and some people latch on to) is a idealised picture. If they do manage to shake themselves loose from the templars and chantry, they'll have a whole new reality to deal with. One that might end up being worse than their previous one.

My arguments as for why mages were rounded up are a few pages back I think...

This isn't the Matrix, and I'm not here to debate the definition of freedom with you. People in Ferelden have the freedom to leave the nation, start over, raise a family, and even foreigners like Leliana can get a fresh start. The same isn't true for mages who are leashed to the templars and Chantry oversight, and plenty of people here have provided you with a myraid of examples why.

You know... leaving everything you have and trying to start over somewhere else isn't exactly something trivial. A single mistake and you'll probably starve to death or end up begging/selling your body in some city somewhere.
But fair enough... Leliana managed (thanks to the corrupt chantry no less...)

But as mentioned by a few others, myself, and in-game... it is in fact the mages who run the circles and dictate circle policy. The templars are there yes, keeping watch and making sure the mages behave.
But it's still the first enchanter who gives permission for mages to leave the tower, not the knight-commander.
The templars needs a mage's help to even access the phylacteries (and to make them I'd wager).
The tranquilization is done by branding the forehead of a mage with magic...

And ultimately... out of all five mage fraternities, only one (libertarians) actively promotes the idea of separating themselves from the chantry (and one semi-actively). The Aequitarians, the largest of the fraternities, are quite content with the status quo.

[Everwarden]

Lumikki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the reference of the Circle Tower as a prison is an accurate one, because that's the intent of the people who wrote the game.

Then let those people who wrote this game and say it here that mage tower is prison. Untill THEY say it here I don't take you word much anything. Because as far I know there is huge different between prison and restricted freedom.

They have made their intent really clear, believe what you want. 

[LobselVith8]

Lumikki wrote...



It still not the company and you know it. It's like you make assumption based your own view points trying to find word to describe it. What leads that we disagree, untill the company actually says it. My point is that in game there actually is mage prison (remember what Lili sayed) and that's not the tower they talk.

The word 'prison' is used to describe the Circle Tower in the voiceover, written by writers who were hired to create this game called Dragon Age. If you don't like it, take it up with TPTB.

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...



I have difficulty treating this as a serious question. Are you actually comparing how people are treated as a result of their station in life with being torn from your family and forced to live under the watch of an oppressive system? It's comparable to the Japanese-American internment camps (the "War Relocation Camps") of World War II, where you isolate people under the watch of soldiers because they're different.

I'm saying that it's not necessarily better outside the circles.

In a circle at least you have the right to eat (and good food no less), drink, get a warm bed, roof over your head, the ability to train with, be educated by and be supported by people who understand what they're going through (I imagine this is actually rather important for mages). They get to choose how to spend their time in their later studies, what schools to study and get plenty of intellectual challanges. All the lyrium they need for their experiments is also provided and paid for by the chantry.

Plus, the chantry's enforcement of political neutrality also works as a defence against the more bloody sie of politics which mages would otherwise be dragged into (they're simply too powerful not to).



Not to mention that each circle is run by a council of senior enchanters led by the first enchanter and that circle policy is decided by mages in Cumberland.



Those are all the things the chantry provides for it's circles. You might see it as a cage, but then it's a very gilded cage. I'd imagine that there's a whole lot of people who would want the kind of life the mages have... because it'd be better than theirs.



Also, the analogy with internement camps isn't a perfect one given that mages have the potential to be really dangerous. But I saw where you was coming from.

The mages aren't free, that's the issue. They have no authority over their own lives. Even the most improverished person in Ferelden can decide to leave town and rebuilt their life, or fall in love and try to raise a family, but a mage can't do that.



I'd agree that some mages have no problem being thralls of the Chantry. Wynne obviously has no issue with the Chantry oversight, but there are plenty of mages who do, which is why there was a meeting in Cumberland to decide if they should severe all ties with the Chantry and deal with the fallout from that decision. The problem is that the Circles are technically independent, but the Chantry is the real authority, which is made clear in the Magi Origin, as Irving has no authority to prevent Jowan from being made tranquil.

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...



Your argument for rounding up mages under the watch of armored and armed drug addicts who take them away from their family, prevent them from having any rights, teach them to see their magic as a curse because of the myth behind the Blight, prevent them from raising children and steal their children from them at birth, and can lobotomize them at their leisure is that some people in life have it hard? Do you realize how flawed your logic is?

I was saying that the freedom the libertarians cry out for (and some people latch on to) is a idealised picture. If they do manage to shake themselves loose from the templars and chantry, they'll have a whole new reality to deal with. One that might end up being worse than their previous one.



My arguments as for why mages were rounded up are a few pages back I think...

I agree that life would likely be difficult, no doubt due to the Chantry's reaction to the mages of the Circles no longer being under Chantry supervision and becoming independent from them. The templars even go after Dalish mages who are under the authority of the elven clans. I have no doubt that it might be violent, but the mages deserve to be free from the Chantry. I really hope that's a choice in DA2. There is a saying... better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...



This isn't the Matrix, and I'm not here to debate the definition of freedom with you. People in Ferelden have the freedom to leave the nation, start over, raise a family, and even foreigners like Leliana can get a fresh start. The same isn't true for mages who are leashed to the templars and Chantry oversight, and plenty of people here have provided you with a myraid of examples why.

You know... leaving everything you have and trying to start over somewhere else isn't exactly something trivial. A single mistake and you'll probably starve to death or end up begging/selling your body in some city somewhere.

But fair enough... Leliana managed (thanks to the corrupt chantry no less...)



But as mentioned by a few others, myself, and in-game... it is in fact the mages who run the circles and dictate circle policy. The templars are there yes, keeping watch and making sure the mages behave.

But it's still the first enchanter who gives permission for mages to leave the tower, not the knight-commander.

The templars needs a mage's help to even access the phylacteries (and to make them I'd wager).

The tranquilization is done by branding the forehead of a mage with magic...



And ultimately... out of all five mage fraternities, only one (libertarians) actively promotes the idea of separating themselves from the chantry (and one semi-actively). The Aequitarians, the largest of the fraternities, are quite content with the status quo.

The Chantry runs the Circle. If the Magi Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be independent, the Chantry says no. David Gaider mentioned this as the reason why the Magi boon doesn't happen.

[LobselVith8]

The Chantry is the reason that the Circle of Magi in Ferelden doesn't become independent, in spite of the Magi boon.

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

[Sir JK]

Mage authority over their own lives:
Well... they can choose what fields of magic to study, and even delve themselves to different careers. They may marry (though the children thing is iffy, and one of the things I agree ought to be changed. If they seek permission first they may also leave the tower and in one case even live outside of it and raise a family. So they do have some authority...
Also, the thing with the most impoverished person in ferelden leaving town... In theory, yes. In practise that's one insanely difficult thing to do... which is why most beggars and poor people stay put.

Jowan: I always intepreted the Jowan-situation as a "he would never be able to succeed in his harrowing" and a "he broke the rules"-kind of inability to help Jowan. That circle policy and rules dictated a tranquilisation, and not Gregoirs whim. That Irving was just as much behind it, even if he regreted it, as Gregoir was.

Cumberland: It was a one time thing? I thought it was annual or every two years or something. An established conference were mages set up a common guideline on how they'll all live? Officially chantry supported?

Better to die standing up than live on your knees: Often said by people in no risk of dying themselves, sometimes even by people supported by people on their knees.

But the problems I anticipated for the circles wasn't the chantry kind... more a: "Oh damn... how will we afford food and most importantly Lyrium?"

Edit:
Yeah, I know the chantry says no. When I said the circles run themselves I was talking about on a individual level. Perhaps I should have made clear that I was very well aware that the chantry have a lot of say in the matter, that it isn't as simple as I perhaps made it out to be.

Still... templars and sisters/brothers cannot teach magic. They cannot gauge how skilled someone is in magic. And they cannot harrow, tranquilise, make or access phylacteries without mages. So it's not completely onesided.

Modifié par Sir JK, 18 septembre 2010 - 09:48 .

[LobselVith8]

Is anyone aware of whether destroying the Chantry is even a possibility in DA2?

Sir JK wrote...

Mage authority over their own lives:
Well... they can choose what fields of magic to study, and even delve themselves to different careers. They may marry (though the children thing is iffy, and one of the things I agree ought to be changed. If they seek permission first they may also leave the tower and in one case even live outside of it and raise a family. So they do have some authority...
Also, the thing with the most impoverished person in ferelden leaving town... In theory, yes. In practise that's one insanely difficult thing to do... which is why most beggars and poor people stay put.

Prisoners can play games and take classes. That doesn't change the fact that they're in a prison. The fact that a Magi Warden can ask for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence illustrates that the Circle isn't free.

Sir JK wrote...

Jowan: I always intepreted the Jowan-situation as a "he would never be able to succeed in his harrowing" and a "he broke the rules"-kind of inability to help Jowan. That circle policy and rules dictated a tranquilisation, and not Gregoirs whim. That Irving was just as much behind it, even if he regreted it, as Gregoir was.

It's Chantry policy. Irving admits that he wouldn't make Jowan tranquil, but has no choice in the matter. The Circles have no automony because they're under the authority of the Chantry, and therefore, so are the mages of the Circles. Gregoir even wants to enact punishment on a Magi Warden who did exactly what Irving told him or her to do (if the Warden chooses to betray Jowan) and the only thing that prevents this is the conscription by Duncan.

Sir JK wrote...

Cumberland: It was a one time thing? I thought it was annual or every two years or something. An established conference were mages set up a common guideline on how they'll all live? Officially chantry supported?

I referenced the meeting that Wynne refers to in Awakening.

Sir JK wrote...

Better to die standing up than live on your knees: Often said by people in no risk of dying themselves, sometimes even by people supported by people on their knees.

But the problems I anticipated for the circles wasn't the chantry kind... more a: "Oh damn... how will we afford food and most importantly Lyrium?"

Apparently, it was the line of thought by people like Uldred and all of the mages who rebelled against the templars in A Broken Circle. They died all in the attempt to be free from the Chantry. I think that the mages should be independent of the Chantry, I've made that perfectly clear. If Hawke has a chance to destroy the Chantry and emancipate the mages of Thedas, then I'm all for it. As the mage of DA:O, becoming a Grey Warden is the only means of being free from the Chantry.

[Perfecti0nist]

Kill them all.

I hate the Chantry with great intensity.

Modifié par Perfecti0nist, 18 septembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Daerog]

MariSkep wrote...

Wait, nevermind. I can tell I'm fighting a losing battle with you all.

I was unaware I was in a battle with anyone. I respect the views counter to mine and understand why people have formed them. I'm not trying to convince anyone to side with me (maybe I am a little), just sharing info and what I think on that info. You are a helpful contributor to the forums, please don't think I'm fighting you over this.

Peace and Love!

[Heimdall]

I'd rather instigate a reformation than outright destroy it. Some of the more peaceful sides of the Chantry seem fine and I even think the Chantry is partly justified in it's measures against mages, and I play a mage, though those measures require a drastic overhaul. We can all agree on that much.