1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Riona45]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry runs the Circle. If the Magi Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be independent, the Chantry says no. David Gaider mentioned this as the reason why the Magi boon doesn't happen.

Not quite...he said the conversation didn't end there.  Maybe in DA2 we'll find out more details about what happened.

[Lumikki]

You are right it's not really content as status quo, it's more like there is right way to find more freedom and wrong way. Libertarians does try it more a wrong way. Some mages like Uldred doesn't seem to understand that Chantry is alot bigger organisation than just some templar forces inside the tower.

[RazorrX]

The reason the Chantry does not want to ease up on the Ferelden circle (it actually was easier for mages earlier for a while) is because the split with the TI Chantry. Since the Tevinter Imperium broke away and basically formed their own chantry - complete with High Cleric (Who is also the First Enchanter) the Orthodox Chantry is paranoid that its mages will also revolt, and thus has taken a more iron hand in its dealings.

[Lumikki]

Reason why Uldred did the rebellion was because it was perfect moment to do it. If we assume that Loghain would really get the power of Ferelden as become it's leader. Then Chantry would not have the power anymore hunt mages in Ferelden. How ever, it was all in one hand, that Loghain actually wins. Also it required killing Templars at least in tower. That's why Uldred did it.



Real question is why "half" the mages did not agree?

[Harcken]

I think fighting them would be more interesting, but it would be cool to both foment a revolution or crush it.

[RazorrX]

Because even if Loghain had tried to keep his promise to the mages, the final say is the chantry and not his. If Loghain told the chantry (and we all know he would not) to go screw themselves they would simply declare an exhalted March on the now pagan and apostate/malificarum infested ferelden. Most of the mages realized this.



The fact of the matter is that at least half of the mages were from Ferelden and thus loved their king and country. They may hate the templar rule but that did not mean they were disloyal subjects to the crown.

[Lumikki]

RazorrX wrote...

Because even if Loghain had tried to keep his promise to the mages, the final say is the chantry and not his. If Loghain told the chantry (and we all know he would not) to go screw themselves they would simply declare an exhalted March on the now pagan and apostate/malificarum infested ferelden. Most of the mages realized this.

Sorry, but when Loghain would rule Fereldan, Chanry has no power at all. Because without all Landlords and King and Queen's support, Chantry can't control anything in Fereldan. This is not the reason why mages refused.

The fact of the matter is that at least half of the mages were from Ferelden and thus loved their king and country. They may hate the templar rule but that did not mean they were disloyal subjects to the crown.

King was dead when this all happen and so was all Grey Wardens. Basicly Loghain was the king allready, just without official confirmation. Also his daughter was Queen allready.

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 septembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[Riona45]

Lumikki wrote...

Some mages like Uldred doesn't seem to understand that Chantry is alot bigger organisation than just some templar forces inside the tower.

I highly doubt he was THAT stupid.

[Daerog]

RazorrX wrote...

Because even if Loghain had tried to keep his promise to the mages, the final say is the chantry and not his. If Loghain told the chantry (and we all know he would not) to go screw themselves they would simply declare an exhalted March on the now pagan and apostate/malificarum infested ferelden. Most of the mages realized this.

The fact of the matter is that at least half of the mages were from Ferelden and thus loved their king and country. They may hate the templar rule but that did not mean they were disloyal subjects to the crown.

Really, how many mages do you think knew what was going on when things went crazy? Uldred knew, his followers knew, the other enchanters learned at the last meeting when it all happened, but all the other mages seemed to be innocent victims of the whole thing, whose to say that they even picked a side? They were likely forced to fight for survival when everything went to hell. All the apprentices and children likely had no idea what was happening.

Still, if people had to choose a side, there would be those who sided with the enchanters who were against Uldred. The event in Broken Circle isn't the best place to get a demograph of the situation. More likely we will see how the senior mages feel during the meeting at the College.

[Daerog]

Lumikki wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Because even if Loghain had tried to keep his promise to the mages, the final say is the chantry and not his. If Loghain told the chantry (and we all know he would not) to go screw themselves they would simply declare an exhalted March on the now pagan and apostate/malificarum infested ferelden. Most of the mages realized this.

Sorry, but when Loghain would rule Fereldan, Chanry has no power at all. Because without all Landlords and King and Queen's support, Chantry can't control anything in Fereldan. This is not the reason why mages refused.

Orlais would just have more support to reconquer Fereldan with the backing of an Exalted March and the weakening of Fereldan after the events of Origins. Doesn't need Fereldan's support, however, if the Chantry does call an Exalted March on the Fereldan crown, there will be Fereldans who will rise up against the crown as well as outside forces like Orlais.

Uldred was a moron who didn't think ahead.

[Lumikki]

If all Landlord would raise behind Loghain what was very close to happen, no other country could do anything to it. Unless they want open war agaist Fereldan. You think they go to open war because handfull mage are free in Fereldan?

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 septembre 2010 - 04:57 .

[Daerog]

Lumikki wrote...

If all Landlord would raise behind Loghain what was very close to happen, no other contry could do anything to it. Unless they want open war agaist Ferelden.

An Exalted March is hardly guerilla warfare. Fereldan wouldn't be able to stand against an Exalted March, it's no Tevinter Imperium. The lords may be loyal to the crown if Loghain won, but that doesn't mean the chantry faithful will be.

[Lumikki]

Why would Chantry people in Fereldan not be faithful in Fereldan's ruler. Just because blight war had some Templar casualties and Loghain declare mages as free. Chantry isn't just some mage guards, they do many things and what reason would they have to go agaist rightful ruler of country where they are?

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 septembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Daerog]

Lumikki wrote...

Why would not Chantry people in Fereldan be faithful in Fereldan's ruler. Just because blight war had some Templar casualties and Loghain declare mages as free. Chantry isn't just some mage guards, they do many things and what reason would they have to go agaist rightful ruler of country where they are?

Same reason they went to war with the Tevinter Imperium. Uncontrolled mages and such. They are not only mage police, but that is a big part of their background and set up. That's the main reason why they have templars in the first place. I mean, the Divine was contemplating an Exalted March on the dwarves just because they could of had a Circle tower there with no chantry to govern it.

Eh, now that I think about in, with the Chantry having problems in DA2, it might not have the resources to go to war with Fereldan if Uldred did succeed. So, if you were going to violently revolt to remove Chantry control over mages, I guess it was the best time.

[Rykn]

Sorry religion is there to convert, heal, and help people find their way not take control of lives. Anything that crosses that line is bad whether it be religion or government. The Chantry is going down in my books and it will be burning all the way.

[Sir JK]

Right, I've said my arguments, don't think anyone would appriciate it if I started to repeat myself. I'll end my contributions with:



I would definantely be interested in being able to choose sides in a circle rising, including choosing to lead it, support it, fight it, stay away from it or convince them to "rise" non-violently.



But I also want to see the full repercussions of choosing to side with the mages. To see the chantry strike back (especially if it is a violent rising) with full force. I want to see the chantry preparing to annull entire towers to prevent revolts from spreading there, templar regiments sent in to kill any free-roaming mage and their supporters, a massive influx of mages some of whom have no qualms whatsoever about taking what they need and wish from non-mages and massive popular risings of scared normal people that fears these unleashed mages. With lots of problems blossoming that it was blatantly clear would never or rarely happen when the chantries existed.

And that's before any exalted march.



Basically... I want any "free the mages from the chantry" to be a horribly bloody affair. With lots of lives lost on both side (unless you convince them to do slow reforms throughout the centuries). A conflict that when you're done and "victorious" you stand there in the ruins of what you had, free but impoverished and crushed, seeing more than half the people you fought to save killed in the conflict (some by your own side) and genuinely ask the questions: "Was it worth it? Was this what I wanted?"

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The problem is that the Circles are technically independent, but the Chantry is the real authority, which is made clear in the Magi Origin, as Irving has no authority to prevent Jowan from being made tranquil.

Well, Gregoir did have evidence, so there's really not much Irwing could do.

Ultimatively, templars, or a templar-like organization, ARE nedded. That much has been said by David..making it a fact.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Everwarden wrote...
1. Templar abuse should not be permitted or winked at. The templars are there for the public good, not for personal satisfaction from bullying mages. This notion has been contested previously in the thread, but no one can deny that at least in some circles, in some cases, templar abuse is grossly out of hand. 

Again, fact of life. You will find soldiers talking how beatifull their last kill was, or police officers that like to beat a perp into submission both in the ploce and the military.  It has been like that since the begining.
They say experience shapes a man, so sadly some will end up being cynical, hatefull bastards.

I seriously doubt you know what you're talking about right now. 

Apparently, a lot more than you do. You rant against a general problem that not only the Chantry or templar have, but any military organizion EVER. It's a problem that stems from the very human nature and circumstances, and probably can't be fixed at all...ever.

Does abuse happen in the military? Yes. Does it happen in the police? Yes. Well, go ahead and wage a war against the military and police then..since they are clearly evil incarante for allowing such things to happen

If I were a pro gamer who'd be trained since as far back as I can
remember how to play rpgs and I had to reload just as often as someone
else without the training would, I'm obviously not cut out for the
field.

Did you count?

Missing the point again I see. The player clears the tower because he's the friggin hero with plot shield. A Mary Sue if you will. Realisticly, 4 people shouldn't have been able to clear the tower. Realisticly, all people you encounter should be more competent. But it's a game, and and such, some liberties have to be taken.

I ask you again - have you palyed the Circle tower on insane, wihout ever reloading? If you faield even once, then you failed to clear the tower, cause real life has no relods.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chris Readman wrote...
failure to respond to an emergency that they're supposed to be specialised in,

Incorrect. The abominatiosn were contained.

constant repression that allowed to build up of resent and eventual rebellion,

Unavoidable. Mages MUST be controled. You can loosen up a bit, but a large mesure of control - and by extension, resentment from some mages - will always be present.

killing mages just because they simply don't like them or feel the thrill for the kill (this doesn't apply to all templars, but it seems prominent).

Incorrect. you lack sufficient evidence to comment on how common that is.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Templars had truely failed, we would still be hunting stray abominations on the countryside.

Such high standards! Truly how can anyone ever hope to reach such staggering heights of hiding behind a giant metal door?

Even the most elite Special Forces squads don't always complete the mission. It's the nature of life. No matter how much you plan or prepare, life has a way of throwing you a curveball every so often. Luck, chance, a series or redicolous events - these things happen and there is NEVER a 100% guaranteee of anything. You cannot always do everything perfectly.

With that saidf, Abomination were contained, and that's the important part. Doesn't matter how they did it. The mission is still a sucess in the end.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chris Readman wrote...
Wow, you are definitely right! NONE of the pro-mage people care about other humans at all! How dare they, those fools! All their statements about keeping a regulating body or other policies to keep them in check were just lies, they were just planning to secretly have orgies in their towers and summon demons to feed on the flesh of children. Those sick bastards!

Well, for the most part, such proposals are full of holes and pretty much overly idealistic, ingoring the realities of Thedas or just skimming over them as unimportant.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Because even if Loghain had tried to keep his promise to the mages, the final say is the chantry and not his. If Loghain told the chantry (and we all know he would not) to go screw themselves they would simply declare an exhalted March on the now pagan and apostate/malificarum infested ferelden. Most of the mages realized this.

Sorry, but when Loghain would rule Fereldan, Chanry has no power at all. Because without all Landlords and King and Queen's support, Chantry can't control anything in Fereldan. This is not the reason why mages refused.

Erm...you relaise most of Thedas is following the Chantry (as in - other kingdowm areound Ferelden)? You realise most of the Ferelden population are Chantry followers?

Loghain openly denouncing the Chantry would have make his reign short-lived. He would basicly be giving a finger to most of the world.

[Morroian]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, for the most part, such proposals are full of holes and pretty much overly idealistic, ingoring the realities of Thedas or just skimming over them as unimportant.

Idealistic maybe but not overly so and certainly not full of holes.

[Chris Readman]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...
failure to respond to an emergency that they're supposed to be specialised in,

Incorrect. The abominatiosn were contained.

constant repression that allowed to build up of resent and eventual rebellion,

Unavoidable. Mages MUST be controled. You can loosen up a bit, but a large mesure of control - and by extension, resentment from some mages - will always be present.

killing mages just because they simply don't like them or feel the thrill for the kill (this doesn't apply to all templars, but it seems prominent).

Incorrect. you lack sufficient evidence to comment on how common that is.

Well let's see, who contained the abominations... Was it the templars who sat at the entrance of the tower waiting for a reply that would not come, or the kick-ass mage lady who erected a magical barrier by herself? Also note that one single blood mage took out a whole room of armed templars all ready to arrest him.

We personally witness at least 3 cases where the templars let their emotions (or worse) take over their basic duty: Anerim, Anders and Cullen. And almost no cases where the mages are just given a slap to the wrist. I'm not saying that it happens all the time, but it happens and nothing really bad happens to these templars.

Also, certain proposals that have been brought up may have holes in them, but they're a step in the right direction, as opposed to remaining stagnant with the Chantry and templars calling the shots. Nobody said that the mages should run completely free, at least I didn't.

Modifié par Chris Readman, 19 septembre 2010 - 11:30 .

[Ayanko]

In Awakening it was already mentioned that the Head of the Templars was considering leaving the chantry, which in turn results in leaving the circle of magi. Most likely result is that this the change, mages are given the right to leave their towers and be finally accepted or not into society. Will just end up in a gigantic power feud, those who want freedom and those who are so scared of change they would fight to keep the old ways. But back to the orginal question, I don't mind the chantry I usually have Templar Wardens, but I don't like how it treats others. The whole thing is way to close to christanity, it's just a big "Meh" you're either with it or agaist it. I'm in the middle on this one, but given the chance I would most likely destroy or limit the power what the chantry has on people.