1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Riona45]

DMC12 wrote...

They do have a bearing on the story and developement, and a pretty large one too. The Maker, Old Gods, Dalish gods, etc...

Only in the sense that beliefs in those gods have shaped the cultures of the setting.

[ShrinkingFish]

No they don't. You can have all that without the gods existing. Same racial tensions, same levels of oppression, ect. No need for them. Fantasy can work just as well when gods are absent but of course always have to have some Nordic rip off deity.

I actually disagree with this idea.

Yes, you CAN have racial tensions without introducing religion... however, the absence of religion in cultural strife does not hold true to reality.

I believe that the addition of religion and religious conflict into this game is a very well used method of creating a well defined sense of realism in a fantasy setting. And I actually believe that when religion is missing from a fantasy work then that the work suffers for its absence.

[DMC12]

MariSkep wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Well, there is likely a deity in Thedas, but I don't think we will ever get any insight on his intentions, thoughts, or motivation. Which is for the best, really, I don't want it confirmed or denied.

I agree with you but I wish it weren't the case. Western fantasy sure does love itself some pointless gods. Even when they have no real bearing on the story or development of the world. Still gotta have them.

They do have a bearing on the story and developement, and a pretty large one too. The Maker, Old Gods, Dalish gods, etc...

No they don't. You can have all that without the gods existing. Same racial tensions, same levels of oppression, ect. No need for them. Fantasy can work just as well when gods are absent but of course always have to have some Nordic rip off deity.

No they do. Darkspawn? Supposedly created by men trying to usurp the Maker's throne, and are the major enemy in the first game.

The Arl of Redcliffe, Eamon, a major character in the first game? Can only be cured after going through an Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade rip-off area, and by grabbing some ashes from the game's "Joan of Christ".

The act of killing an Archdemon, which is supposed to be a lesser-god type thing? Anyone who kills the Archdemon dies, thus implying some type of spiritual connection, which would necessitate the existence of a all-powerful deity on the level that the Maker is described as.

Also fantasy becomes quite dull when there's no implications of higher powers and mystical whatevers, because then it just becomes a medieval game with a bunch of dirty humans.

[ShrinkingFish]

MariSkep wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

No they don't. You can have all that without the gods existing. Same racial tensions, same levels of oppression, ect. No need for them. Fantasy can work just as well when gods are absent but of course always have to have some Nordic rip off deity.

I actually disagree with this idea.

Yes, you CAN have racial tensions without introducing religion... however, the absence of religion in cultural strife does not hold true to reality.

I believe that the addition of religion and religious conflict into this game is a very well used method of creating a well defined sense of realism in a fantasy setting. And I actually believe that when religion is missing from a fantasy work then that the work suffers for its absence.

Actually we're in agreement. My complaint is only making all these deities real when all the same tensions and religious powerstructure can exist without it.

EDIT: Meaning, I'm all for situations like the one in Thedas with the Chantry, Qun, cults and Eleven Gods. I just object to making all these gods real. What's the point? You can have the exact same situation with the exact same competing faiths without making gods real.

Ohhhh, so you're arguing for leaving the existance or non-existance of the gods to question. As in, within the context of the game, the player never gets confirmation or affirmation of the existance of one god or any gods and that it is all kept is questions of philosophy and culture.

Alright, yeah. I agree completely.

[LobselVith8]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Burning the Chantry to the ground would destroy order and allow an even more oppressive group to step in.  That's how it works in an enviroment like Thedas.  Might makes right.  The question is who do you perceive as the bigger threat to external and internal security.  The Chantry is certainly not trying to emulate the Qunari's extreme views on social order.  Their actual control is questionable considering we could defy them in DAO.  So reform with an appropriate amount of force is preferable to outright destruction.  Unless there is no alternative or compromise. /rambling post  

Destroy order? That's a bit of a stretch. The Dalish don't believe in the Chant or follow the Chantry, and they still have a social structure, and so do the Dwarves of Orzammar. Kolgrim's faction isn't part of the mainstream Chantry, and Haven has been around for centuries. Forcing the Chantry's religious views on people throughout Thedas is a big part of their goals, I'd rather dismantle it to allow people freedom than reform an institution that's destroyed the homeland of the elves and placed the mages under their heel.

DMC12 wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Well, there is likely a deity in Thedas, but I don't think we will ever get any insight on his intentions, thoughts, or motivation. Which is for the best, really, I don't want it confirmed or denied.

I agree with you but I wish it weren't the case. Western fantasy sure does love itself some pointless gods. Even when they have no real bearing on the story or development of the world. Still gotta have them.

They do have a bearing on the story and developement, and a pretty large one too. The Maker, Old Gods, Dalish gods, etc...

No they don't. You can have all that without the gods existing. Same racial tensions, same levels of oppression, ect. No need for them. Fantasy can work just as well when gods are absent but of course always have to have some Nordic rip off deity.

No they do. Darkspawn? Supposedly created by men trying to usurp the Maker's throne, and are the major enemy in the first game.

The Arl of Redcliffe, Eamon, a major character in the first game? Can only be cured after going through an Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade rip-off area, and by grabbing some ashes from the game's "Joan of Christ".

The act of killing an Archdemon, which is supposed to be a lesser-god type thing? Anyone who kills the Archdemon dies, thus implying some type of spiritual connection, which would necessitate the existence of a all-powerful deity on the level that the Maker is described as.

Also fantasy becomes quite dull when there's no implications of higher powers and mystical whatevers, because then it just becomes a medieval game with a bunch of dirty humans.

It's basically the myth of the Chantry - mages tried to take over heaven and created hell instead. Their views on the Blight, the Archdemon, and even the Urn is all really an issue of perception - Alistair doubts the validity behind the Chantry's stories of the Golden City and the reason behind the Blight that most people assume to be true, and during the Urn mission Oghren makes it clear that there's a thick wall of lyrium that's having an impact on virtually everything in the temple, including the ashes, giving the Warden an alternate explanation behind the Urn's healing properties. It allows room for people to make up their own mind and keep the world realistic, since the real world doesn't deal with God or gods actually making an appearance to validate any one religious view.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 20 septembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[ShrinkingFish]

No they do. Darkspawn? Supposedly created by men trying to usurp the Maker's throne, and are the major enemy in the first game.

The Arl of Redcliffe, Eamon, a major character in the first game? Can only be cured after going through an Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade rip-off area, and by grabbing some ashes from the game's "Joan of Christ".

The act of killing an Archdemon, which is supposed to be a lesser-god type thing? Anyone who kills the Archdemon dies, thus implying some type of spiritual connection, which would necessitate the existence of a all-powerful deity on the level that the Maker is described as.

Also fantasy becomes quite dull when there's no implications of higher powers and mystical whatevers, because then it just becomes a medieval game with a bunch of dirty humans.

It is known within the game that there is a real, existing spiritual element to the world. The Fade is a very real place that the characters within the game can experience first hand. However, The Fade, magic and all other mystical occurences are not necessarily connected to any god figure.

It is not confirmed that the Archdemon is or is not an "Old God" that is just the Chantry's version of the story. As well as the whole "the magisters were the first Darkspawn" thing. These explanations are simply the Chantry's version of how things are under the eyes of their religion. They are not necessarily truth. But they are believed to be true by many people.

The same thing applies to Andraste's ashes curing Arl Eamon. This is not proof of the devinity of the Maker, or even his existance, but rather proof of the power of Andraste and her followers. Nothing is to say that Andraste wasn't just a powerful mage who made up a big story about a god in order to forge a religion that she could use to martial the oppressed people of the Tevinter Imperium against their masters.

An elaborate attempt to attain personal power through religion. That she died and became a martyr was not likely part of her plan. But it would present an opportunity for Andraste's followers to put her up as a holy figure and then achieve power for themselves.

[DMC12]

MariSkep wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

No they do. Darkspawn? Supposedly created by men trying to usurp the Maker's throne, and are the major enemy in the first game.

The Arl of Redcliffe, Eamon, a major character in the first game? Can only be cured after going through an Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade rip-off area, and by grabbing some ashes from the game's "Joan of Christ".

The
act of killing an Archdemon, which is supposed to be a lesser-god type
thing? Anyone who kills the Archdemon dies, thus implying some type of
spiritual connection, which would necessitate the existence of a
all-powerful deity on the level that the Maker is described as.

Also
fantasy becomes quite dull when there's no implications of higher
powers and mystical whatevers, because then it just becomes a medieval
game with a bunch of dirty humans.

sigh

What
we have in each of those cases is some strange phenomena, not a god in
the machine. You can still have all those things without some bearded
white guy atop a glittering palace.

What you have is the characters viewing it as a strange and somehow explainable phenomena. You, the player
know there is a divine answer. It's about the characters in a strange
(to us) fantasy world, who have similar philosophical questions like us
in the real world. Granted, atheism gets the short end of the stick,
but that's a completely understandable outcome for it given the setting.



So
to them (the characters in the story), events seem strange and they may
or may not believe in a higher power. To us, we may not know everything
either (about the game world), but it's blatantly obvious that there is
indeed an all-powerful deity or deities. Whether he (or they) has a
beard and is white is another matter.



In fact, if anything I'd say that it's saying that god(s) are better left to fantasy. If anyone is really
bothered by the fact that there are god(s) or how they are depicted,
then they need to take a step back and scrutinize their belief system, Christian, Atheist,
whatever.

ShrinkingFish wrote...

No they do. Darkspawn? Supposedly created by men trying to usurp the Maker's throne, and are the major enemy in the first game.

The Arl of Redcliffe, Eamon, a major character in the first game? Can only be cured after going through an Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade rip-off area, and by grabbing some ashes from the game's "Joan of Christ".

The act of killing an Archdemon, which is supposed to be a lesser-god type thing? Anyone who kills the Archdemon dies, thus implying some type of spiritual connection, which would necessitate the existence of a all-powerful deity on the level that the Maker is described as.

Also fantasy becomes quite dull when there's no implications of higher powers and mystical whatevers, because then it just becomes a medieval game with a bunch of dirty humans.

It is known within the game that there is a real, existing spiritual element to the world. The Fade is a very real place that the characters within the game can experience first hand. However, The Fade, magic and all other mystical occurences are not necessarily connected to any god figure.

It is not confirmed that the Archdemon is or is not an "Old God" that is just the Chantry's version of the story. As well as the whole "the magisters were the first Darkspawn" thing. These explanations are simply the Chantry's version of how things are under the eyes of their religion. They are not necessarily truth. But they are believed to be true by many people.

The same thing applies to Andraste's ashes curing Arl Eamon. This is not proof of the devinity of the Maker, or even his existance, but rather proof of the power of Andraste and her followers. Nothing is to say that Andraste wasn't just a powerful mage who made up a big story about a god in order to forge a religion that she could use to martial the oppressed people of the Tevinter Imperium against their masters.

An elaborate attempt to attain personal power through religion. That she died and became a martyr was not likely part of her plan. But it would present an opportunity for Andraste's followers to put her up as a holy figure and then achieve power for themselves.

Even if the Archdemon wasn't a god, the mere fact that it kills whoever kills it or transfers its essence into a fetus confirms the existence of a spirit (not just the beings in the fade, which can be explained as just other types of life), which would also mean that there has to be a divine being/beings/force or something when looked at from a modern philosophical perspective.

Even if Andraste was a powerful mage who made up the story of the Maker, it doesn't explain the Guardian who knows intimate details of yourself and companions, is immortal,  then fights you if you pour some blood on them.

Also I highly doubt that was her plan: to dupe the masses and become the world leader. I think it was more, Andraste = 1/2 Joan of Ark, 1/2 Jesus Christ.



Damn, I feel weird typing all of this, since I'm actually creeping myself out at how much of a nerd I can be.. But my generalized thesis on the subject is that there is a god in the DA universe, and arguing over whether or not there isn't is a moot point, since all the spirits (not just the fade ones), magic, immortal characters, and miraculous items all point towards a deity. The intentions, appearance, and location of that divine being and the truth behind the religions worshiping their respective deities is what the real question is.

[ShrinkingFish]

Damn, I feel weird typing all of this, since I'm actually creeping myself out at how much of a nerd I can be.. But my generalized thesis on the subject is that there is a god in the DA universe, and arguing over whether or not there isn't is a moot point, since all the spirits (not just the fade ones), magic, immortal characters, and miraculous items all point towards a deity. The intentions, appearance, and location of that divine being and the truth behind the religions worshiping their respective deities is what the real question is.

I actually dissagree that any of it points to any form of devine being. All of it can be explained without refering to any sort of God. It is simply that we cannot see the answers.

I think that it is in this absence of explanation that you see the diety. Just like all the people of the world, the Chantry, the Tevinter Imperium, the Elves of Arlathan see the Maker or their respective Gods in the things that they cannot explain.

The Guardian's immortality and powers can be explained without the Maker. Mages abilities can be explained without any form of diety. The existance of the Fade Spirits as well as other are not exclusive to any god. All Immortal characters that have been seen have achieved their immortality through magical means, nothing godly. And miraculous items can be as easily explained by magic as by the devine.

I'm not saying that there definitely is not a god in DA. I'm saying that the game leaves the question open and does not confirm nor deny the existance of the god figure.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 20 septembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[LobselVith8]

DMC12 wrote...

Even if Andraste was a powerful mage who made up the story of the Maker, it doesn't explain the Guardian who knows intimate details of yourself and companions, is immortal,  then fights you if you pour some blood on them.

Also I highly doubt that was her plan: to dupe the masses and become the world leader. I think it was more, Andraste = 1/2 Joan of Ark, 1/2 Jesus Christ.

Damn, I feel weird typing all of this, since I'm actually creeping myself out at how much of a nerd I can be.. But my generalized thesis on the subject is that there is a god in the DA universe, and arguing over whether or not there isn't is a moot point, since all the spirits (not just the fade ones), magic, immortal characters, and miraculous items all point towards a deity. The intentions, appearance, and location of that divine being and the truth behind the religions worshiping their respective deities is what the real question is.

Yes, the Guardian knows the backstories of the Warden and the companions, but not enough to know whether or not the Warden is going to pour blood onto the Ashes. He's a mortal who doesn't even know that Tevinter is no longer as powerful as it once was. As for his abilities, Oghren said the lyrium is affecting the temple and everything in it. It's an explanation for the ashes in the Urn and the Guardian. After all, despite all of Andraste's professed power, she couldn't use any of it to save herself from being burned alive, and there's no explanation of why the Maker did nothing to save her if he was real.

Morrigan and Leliana have this debate. Leliana makes the same points you do, and Morrigan counters it by saying that simply because there is magic, that doesn't mean there's a Maker. Morrigan comments to Leliana that "The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure." It's a world that is both similiar and different than our own, but it's a matter of faith whether one believes in the elven gods or the Maker. As Morrigan says, "Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is."

[ShrinkingFish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

Even if Andraste was a powerful mage who made up the story of the Maker, it doesn't explain the Guardian who knows intimate details of yourself and companions, is immortal,  then fights you if you pour some blood on them.

Also I highly doubt that was her plan: to dupe the masses and become the world leader. I think it was more, Andraste = 1/2 Joan of Ark, 1/2 Jesus Christ.

Damn, I feel weird typing all of this, since I'm actually creeping myself out at how much of a nerd I can be.. But my generalized thesis on the subject is that there is a god in the DA universe, and arguing over whether or not there isn't is a moot point, since all the spirits (not just the fade ones), magic, immortal characters, and miraculous items all point towards a deity. The intentions, appearance, and location of that divine being and the truth behind the religions worshiping their respective deities is what the real question is.

Yes, the Guardian knows the backstories of the Warden and the companions, but not enough to know whether or not the Warden is going to pour blood onto the Ashes. He's a mortal who doesn't even know that Tevinter is no longer as powerful as it once was. As for his abilities, Oghren said the lyrium is affecting the temple and everything in it. It's an explanation for the ashes in the Urn and the Guardian. After all, despite all of Andraste's professed power, she couldn't use any of it to save herself from being burned alive, and there's no explanation of why the Maker did nothing to save her if he was real.

Morrigan and Leliana have this debate. Leliana makes the same points you do, and Morrigan counters it by saying that simply because there is magic, that doesn't mean there's a Maker. Morrigan comments to Leliana that "The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure." It's a world that is both similiar and different than our own, but it's a matter of faith whether one believes in the elven gods or the Maker. As Morrigan says, "Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is."

Seconded.

I had forgotten about Morrigan and Leliana's discussion about the existance of the Maker.

This is why I like Morrigan.

[DMC12]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

Even if Andraste was a powerful mage who made up the story of the Maker, it doesn't explain the Guardian who knows intimate details of yourself and companions, is immortal,  then fights you if you pour some blood on them.

Also I highly doubt that was her plan: to dupe the masses and become the world leader. I think it was more, Andraste = 1/2 Joan of Ark, 1/2 Jesus Christ.

Damn, I feel weird typing all of this, since I'm actually creeping myself out at how much of a nerd I can be.. But my generalized thesis on the subject is that there is a god in the DA universe, and arguing over whether or not there isn't is a moot point, since all the spirits (not just the fade ones), magic, immortal characters, and miraculous items all point towards a deity. The intentions, appearance, and location of that divine being and the truth behind the religions worshiping their respective deities is what the real question is.

Yes, the Guardian knows the backstories of the Warden and the companions, but not enough to know whether or not the Warden is going to pour blood onto the Ashes. He's a mortal who doesn't even know that Tevinter is no longer as powerful as it once was. As for his abilities, Oghren said the lyrium is affecting the temple and everything in it. It's an explanation for the ashes in the Urn and the Guardian. After all, despite all of Andraste's professed power, she couldn't use any of it to save herself from being burned alive, and there's no explanation of why the Maker did nothing to save her if he was real.

Morrigan and Leliana have this debate. Leliana makes the same points you do, and Morrigan counters it by saying that simply because there is magic, that doesn't mean there's a Maker. Morrigan comments to Leliana that "The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure." It's a world that is both similiar and different than our own, but it's a matter of faith whether one believes in the elven gods or the Maker. As Morrigan says, "Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is."

The Guardian knows only the backstories, he doesn't know the future. If he could read your character's mind that well, he'd be reading your mind as a player, which is impossible in a decision based game, but not impossible for something like a purely linear game or a movie.

Lyrium could also be an explanation for the ashes, but then why can't the mages and their magic/potions cure Eamon?

As for the question of why the Maker didn't save Andrate... I'm not getting into that. Unlike the Guardian, I know where that path will lead to in the future.

When it comes to Morrigan and Leliana's religious discusions, I agree that magic has a legitimate reason behind it. What doesn't have a clear reason is the relation between blood and the spirit, namely the killing of the Archdemon. All Grey Warden's have Archdemon bood flowing within them, but it isn't the blood of the Archdemon they are fighting. Again, the transfer of the Archdemon spirit to a fetus born from some strange ritual and a Grey Warden makes no sense on a logical scale. Because what it says to me is that the spirit is entirely different than a fade spirit/demon, which is can be destroyed by conventional means, whereas the spirit as presented in the case of the Archdemon cannot. It needs something similarly intangible and powerful to be destroyed, thus a Grey Warden spirit whose blood (which somehow connects to the spirit) has been mutated on the level of an Archdemon. So maybe there's some science and logic involved, but only as a connection between the real and the divine.

To me, that's the clearest case of a divine source: the connection between blood and the spirit (for the last time, NOT Fade spirits/demons).

Edit: sorry for the late responses. Just picked up Reach and I'm going through campaign at the moment, so I have no track of time.

Modifié par DMC12, 20 septembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chris Readman wrote...
Well let's see, who contained the abominations... Was it the templars who sat at the entrance of the tower waiting for a reply that would not come, or the kick-ass mage lady who erected a magical barrier by herself? Also note that one single blood mage took out a whole room of armed templars all ready to arrest him.

Templars. The reply would come and you have no proof the door wouldn't hold OR that the templars couldn't hold them back-

We personally witness at least 3 cases where the templars let their emotions (or worse) take over their basic duty: Anerim, Anders and Cullen. And almost no cases where the mages are just given a slap to the wrist. I'm not saying that it happens all the time, but it happens and nothing really bad happens to these templars.

How is Anders not a "slap on the wrist" case? He escaped 7 times.
And yes, nothing really bad happens to a lot of douchebags in real life too. At least for a while.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...
Yes, I'm the one who's ignoring the obvious faults and self defeating practices of a power structure. Obviously.

Glad you finally realise your mistakes. As the old saying goes, half is pardoned.

Now, do you have actual arguments to add or just ineffective sarcasm?

I wouldn't have filled the Tower with Templars in the first place.
What purpose does that serve? We know they can't handle more then a
couple abominations anyway and we know their only response to this is
'send in the cavalry'. So why not keep a handful of Templars at the
front doors, let the mages go about their lives and when they hear
screaming and bloody murder shut the door and call for the Rite of
Annulment? They'd be in the exact same position only without the
staggering casualties on their side.

Pure genius. Let the most dangerous people in the world roam aroudn wihout supervision. Who cares what they do in the tower, right?
They might do blood magic, bide their time and summon more demons, making oyu face a larger force...but who cares, we'll just close the doors?<_<

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I just cleared the Tower in the game with 2 Templars. Alone. No support. And they aren't even fully trained Templars. Following MariSkep's logic, then the Templars must be the most powerful military unit in Thedas, perhaps even the universe.

Nope. That's two templars who've trained battling darkspawn. Key word there is two. From what we see the rest of the organisation is about as helpful as regular grunt forces.

By what INSANE logic does battling darkspawn (twice) make you a better warrior, especially against abominations?????

Here, if you want to test it, I just edited the Broken Circle, where you play (take control of)  as 4 generic templars...Cleared the tower easy-peasy. Templars are super-special-awesome.

[ShrinkingFish]

To me, that's the clearest case of a divine source: the connection between blood and the spirit (for the last time, NOT Fade spirits/demons).

I think the reason people are getting confused is because the word you're looking for isn't spirit... it's soul.

From what I understand your argument is that since souls exist in the context of the game then a divinity must also exist.  That is not the case. The soul is the same sort of nonesense word that god is. It is a word inserted to explain the unexplainable. Used in the context of the story as it is used in real life.

Also, the connection between the soul and the blood is not a mysterious one that can't be traced. The explanation of the Archdemon's soul passing into the body of the Grey Warden to be destroyed is explained in the context of the story. It passes through the Taint, which is present in the blood of the Grey Warden. If it didn't hit a Grey Warden it would hit a Darkspawn and inhabit that body. The soul is just another force within the body that the Archdemon encounters in the Grey Warden, drestroying both souls.

The Taint is the car, the blood is the road, the body the destination and the soul the enormous brick wall that blocks the way.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Personally, I'd rather destroy the Chantry. I see no point in reforming it when their intention is to force their religion onto every person throughout Thedas. I don't think the Chantry's abuses against the elves and the mages are warranted.

Given that you can display your disbelief and dislike of the Chantry, and no one tries to force you to convert, I fail to see how they are forcing their religion on anyone.
And you know...people generally try to convince eachother on what they belive it's the truth. We're doing it right now.

Only if the mage is a Grey Warden; otherwise, the Chantry takes their child away.

Incorrect. A mage doesn't have to be a GW. He "just" has to earn that privelige.

You realize the Circle sided with Uldred until Wynne revealed that Loghain abandoned the troops at Ostagar, right? Considering that Wynne told the Circle that Loghain abandoned the King and his army to the darkspawn, it's certainly a valid reason why they wouldn't trust him.

No. At no point did the whole Circle side with Uldred. Now you're making things up.

So a Grey Warden can come in and clean up the mess that the templars are incapable of resolving on their own, like in A Broken Circle? The templars are drug addicts, so I'd dispute that they're needed. Alistair and Anora both agree that the mages have earned the right to look after themselves.

Dispute it all you want, but the Maker (David) sayeth otherwise.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

As sad as it might sound sometimes you really do have to force new ideas or force old ones out of people by the sword. If the pay off is a more secure, productive and generally better society (just lifting the restrictions on studying the body would be enough for huge leaps forward) I'd be willing to fight even the people I hope to help. Wouldn't be the first time I've done it. At Thedas' current rate nothing will change and their backwards policies have left them vulnerable to a much more oppressive and callous society; the Qunari.

We shall create a better society by killing the majority of the people on the planet!
Brilliant. Brilliant!

And then they say that only religious people can be fanatical zealots. Another claim internet forums proved wrong.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

I don't care what the 'true' religion is. It's not going to change how unjust and incompetent the Chantry is and it certainly isn't going to change my sense of right and wrong. Morality given by some bearded white guy atop a cloud palace is no more 'true' to me than anything else people can come up with.

Ah..but the people of Thads would. You'd be going agaisnt most of the world.
Not only that, if you don't care about Gods morality, why would anyone else care about  yours? Or why would they choose yours over his? Who is more likely to be right?
A divine being possesing knowledge and wisdom far outstripping that of any mortal man, or..well..you?

In the end of the day, you'd be trying to conver the world by force, regardless fo the death toll, which is worse than everything the Chantry does.


EDIT: I'm sorely tempted to go around and slay any non-believer and mage I ran across in DA2, and not because that's something I would normally do, but because I know you wouldn't like it.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[DMC12]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

To me, that's the clearest case of a divine source: the connection between blood and the spirit (for the last time, NOT Fade spirits/demons).

I think the reason people are getting confused is because the word you're looking for isn't spirit... it's soul.

From what I understand your argument is that since souls exist in the context of the game then a divinity must also exist.  That is not the case. The soul is the same sort of nonesense word that god is. It is a word inserted to explain the unexplainable. Used in the context of the story as it is used in real life.

Also, the connection between the soul and the blood is not a mysterious one that can't be traced. The explanation of the Archdemon's soul passing into the body of the Grey Warden to be destroyed is explained in the context of the story. It passes through the Taint, which is present in the blood of the Grey Warden. If it didn't hit a Grey Warden it would hit a Darkspawn and inhabit that body. The soul is just another force within the body that the Archdemon encounters in the Grey Warden, drestroying both souls.

The Taint is the car, the blood is the road, the body the destination and the soul the enormous brick wall that blocks the way.

Bold: Thank you, that's the word I was looking for.  lol

I think the connection between the taint and the soul is exactly my point. It's a tangible connection between an intangible thing. A direct relation between the real and the fantastic. Much like lyrium is the direct connection between magic and the mage.

But obviously we've come to a stand-still. I think it's clear that there is a god-like power in DA, you think it's up for grabs, and we've moved this discussion off topic... Well, I mostly moved this off topic. My original point was that the existence of a god doesn't discredit DA as a great fantasy setting, and that the religious problems faced in DA are what moves the narrative along (but the deity is a key factor in the story). If there's a Maker, then the Chantry has most definitely distorted his image and have been using it as a corrupted tool to bring others under it's domination. Something needs to be done about that or should be done (if one chooses).

Modifié par DMC12, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[ShrinkingFish]

DMC12 wrote...

Bold: Thank you, that's the word I was looking for.  lol

I think the connection between the taint and the soul is exactly my point. It's a tangible connection between an intangible thing. A direct relation between the real and the fantastic. Much like lyrium is the direct connection between magic and the mage.

But obviously we've come to a stand-still. I think it's clear that there is a god-like power in DA, you think it's up for grabs, and we've moved this discussion off topic... Well, I mostly moved this off topic. My original point was that the existence of a god doesn't discredit DA as a great fantasy setting, and that the religious problems faced in DA are what moves the narrative along (but the deity is a key factor in the story). If there's a Maker, then the Chantry has most definitely distorted his image and have been using it as a corrupted tool to bring others under it's domination. Something needs to be done about that or should be done (if one chooses).

Hahaha, no problem, happy to help.

And yes. I think we are at an impass. For me these things dictate an ambiguity, a necessary unknowing that the characters in the story will never breach. Well... maybe Flemeth... but anyways.

The deity is definitely a key factor in the story. However, whether or not the deity actually exists is not important to the story. What is important is that the people in the story believe that he (or they) exists.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Chris Readman]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chris Readman wrote...
Well let's see, who contained the abominations... Was it the templars who sat at the entrance of the tower waiting for a reply that would not come, or the kick-ass mage lady who erected a magical barrier by herself? Also note that one single blood mage took out a whole room of armed templars all ready to arrest him.

Templars. The reply would come and you have no proof the door wouldn't hold OR that the templars couldn't hold them back-

We personally witness at least 3 cases where the templars let their emotions (or worse) take over their basic duty: Anerim, Anders and Cullen. And almost no cases where the mages are just given a slap to the wrist. I'm not saying that it happens all the time, but it happens and nothing really bad happens to these templars.

How is Anders not a "slap on the wrist" case? He escaped 7 times.
And yes, nothing really bad happens to a lot of douchebags in real life too. At least for a while.

Wasn't the permission for the Rite of Annulment to be seeked from Redcliffe? Where they have their own troubles and couldn't be bothered with these templars. Also, you have no proof that the templars COULD do anything either, what has happened was that Wynne and the mages had formed the first line of defense which they have held untill the warden's arrival.

And sure, Anders escaped 7 times, and he is the only one you can cite isn't he? Note my use of the word "almost". But bad-tempered templar lady was willing to do anything to have him dead, even defy the orders of the King or Queen of Ferelden. Nothing happens to people like this at all (at least untill the warden comes into the story), and they are people in the position of power, so how can you not see that this system needs some form of change? Not even a unbias system of checking?

Face it, you can't say that templars and Chantry are great, without just saying that "templars and Chantry are great" while having no proof. Which is what you have done in the first part of your argument. "Templars contained abominations, even though they stood behind the steel door, behind the other steel doors which demons broke through."

[Chris Readman]

Oh by the way, in the codex entry for the Rite of Annulment, we learn that an abomination has escaped before, and we know that "[the templars] killed the abomination a year later, but by that time it had slain 70 people."

Now this is horrible, clearly, 70 people dying. But let's look at the facts here, it took the templars one year the find this abomination, ONE WHOLE YEAR!

Also, it's 70 people within a year, so people should try not to make it sound like mage abominations are so dangerous that they'll destroy all of humanity once they've escaped. It's not a small number, but it's not as dramatic as the anti-mage people try to make it sound.