1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Chris Readman wrote...
Yeah, so do soldiers and police officers. But the templars aren't supposed to be police officers or soldiers per se. Their job scope is much more focused than soldiers or police officers, only dealing with mages. Your comparison doesn't hold 100%, therefore different standards can apply. In fact, soldiers and police officers are known to have to write reports which can be checked if anything suspicious happen.[/quote]

No comparions holds 100%. That is irrelevant, and no, differetn standards don't apply. Soldiers go after enemies. Police officers go after criminals. Templars go after apostates. It's always a "US" vs. "THEM" situation.

[quote]
And let me throw the question back at you, why would she not mention it?[/quote]

Maybe she didn't think it's important. Maybe it slipped her mind. Maybe she wanted to keep the conversation short. There could be a dozen reasons.



[quote]
They do have a mage detection solution, does "phylactery" not ring a bell? The problem is that it's a mage detection system, not an abomination detection system. If you extrapolate, why can't you advance this field after so many years of research? Simple, hardly any research is done![/quote]

You assume no reasearch has been done. As I said, mages would benefit the most from this, and plenty of mages would be looking into this. You also assume it's even possible AT ALL to detect abominations.



[quote]
Every human being has an appendix, they're not good for anything at the moment. Well actually, they're good for causing undesirable pain. Just because it exists doesn't mean it's good for something.[/quote]

The doors are apparently special. Again, they're big and expensive and made for situation like that. Why spare the expense for them if they are completely useless? They should at least hold them back for a while.

[quote]
Still does not address the problem of what we know. Desire demons float, wrath demons materialise out of nowhere. They have limitations, we don't know what they all are. This is a Schrödinger's cat scenario, both possibilities exist untill proven otherwise. But I have more evidence supporting the possibility of my case.[/quote]

You have jack s***. DG said no teleportation - and indeed, there is none. The only instance of "teleportation" in game proved to be an illusion. Yes, desire demons float, but floating is not equal to flying. Again, NO mention of an abomination or mage ver escaping trough a window.



[quote]
So if it goes against your belief, it's not a fact? Even when it has happened. Educate me on the purpose of the templars then, other than monitoring mages, stopping abominations and hunting down rogue mages. In these two cases, the templars have failed at the stopping abominations and monitoring mages criteria; they allowed the mages to summon demons and get possessed, and they were unable to stop the abominations for a year or untill the warden arrives.[/quote]

No, not that. Your definition fo faliure is too broad. When you judge the templars/Chantry, you demand a perfect record. Which is irrational.

And no, it's not a faliure. The templars at the tower have the task of stoping any abomination from breaching the tower and getting out. Thay did that. And it was not a year. The trouble started just before the warden arrived.



[quote]
Here are some possibilities: darkspawn invasion, Denerim politics, Loghain's own involvment with the issue, bandits. I'm not saying that they did cause the failure in message delivery, but they are possibilities. Considering these factors, wouldn't it be wiser if the templars had a plan B instead of using the door?[/quote]

Darkspawn have not moved that far north at that point. Denerim politics cannot stop the templars, as the Chantry is detached from it, and any noble mucking about there would siffer from a horrible backlash. Neither can Loghain defy the Chantry. And why would he? WHY WOULD ANYONE?
Abominations must be stopped, as they present a danger to everyone.

You're really reaching here.


[quote]
Fair enough. But your argument phrasings mostly end up sounding like "If the pro-mage people get their way, what about the other people! Think about the citizens!".[/qutoe]

Methinks your'e confusing me with another poster


[quote]
There are many horrible government systems that have not been replaced despite majority disapproval, take Burma's current military ruled government for example, around 30 years of wanting change and nothing has happened other than constant suppression.[/quote]

Ineffective systems that affect the safety of a large populace don't last long. An ineffective military cannot hold, as it will be destroyed by it's own ineffectiveness. 700 years is a long time. If the Chantry/Templars was so inefficent, it would be more noticible.


[quote]
The Dalish elves are ruled by the Keepers, who are mages. [/quote]

And that's the extent of our knowledge. Tevinter is also ruled by mages. Yet mages are still locked up in towers. FACT - we do not know how the Dalish deal with their mages/abominations.


[quote]
I'm not saying that templars have to stop abominations from coming to existence, I'm saying that they have to stop them completely. Putting a road block in their path is not stopping them, eradicating them is. Furthermore, you've established that 2 or 4 normal templars can retake the tower, why can't a higher number of them do it?[/quote]

Containment is hte first step to eradication.
And why? Because you aparently are unable to segregate gameplay mechanics from lore on a metal level.



[quote]
Overgeneralisation again. Firstly, they're not all ticking bombs, there will be duds. If the mages take part in the policing, does it not relieve the burden from the templars? Note that I have never suggested complete removal of the templars. Take this for example: mages probably trust mages more than templars, a mage can infiltrate diabolical attempts and gather intelligence.[/quote]

Well, you never know which one won't go off, And you have no way of detecting or a guarantee that a dud really is a dud.


[quote]
Again, like I said, it's your assumption again. There might have been the Qunaris and the Circles, but there might be independant mages (Flemeth and Morrigan), mages might have been their own police. Not enough information here. You cannot deny the other side is a possibility.[/quote]

I can. Because the other posiblity is not realistic. Who hunts blood mages and abomination that result from hedge mages? Templars. Not other hedge mages. Who trusts hedge mages, when they can be abominations themsevles?



[quote]
My bad, it wasn't you who said this. But look at what an asset a non-Circle, non-Chantry restrained mage has become. Granted, her personality is twisted. Instead of condemning them, they can learn the good parts of the education from them.[/quote]

The Chantry does try to bring all mages into the Circles for education. It condemns those that refuse. Which is logical.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:24 .

[GGRush]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Isn't the chantry and their templars the only thing stopping the blood mages from tearing the veil and letting demons rule thedas?

Side with chantry or let the world fall into chaos HMMMMMMM...?

What about the blood mages in Tevinter? They're given free reign, or freer than in the other countries at least, and the world hasn't gone to hell in a handbasket yet.

Blood mage Propaganda obviously

We all saw the circle
We all saw Redcliffe
Bloodmages will destroy the universe

Anora holds more power than any blood mage
and we never see her executed.

If the so called chantry is so sure of this "power corrupts" theory
why don't they put knives in their own stomachs?

[Lotion Soronarr]

GGRush wrote...
Anora holds more power than any blood mage
and we never see her executed.

If the so called chantry is so sure of this "power corrupts" theory
why don't they put knives in their own stomachs?

Last time I checked, Anora won't be possesed by a demon. She is incapable of raising the dead, or mind(body) control. And she is in control of her actions, unlike an abomination.

Also, she is the queen.

[Chris Readman]

Again I say, show me where David Gaider says whatever he says. And don't get all pissy just because I'm telling you how I view the Chantry and templars while supporting mages.

US versus THEM? Mages may be different, but they do not belong to a THEM category. Your prejudice has already classed them into a different category despite them being humans as well. You even relate them to criminals when all they've done is seek their freedom.

The Chantry brings all mages into the Circle, despite the fact that these mages have existed without the help of either. Magical arts such as shapeshifting are foresaken just because they do not fit the curriculum, and I personally dislike the abandonment of knowledge.

Nobody will need to hunt the hedge mages if they aren't abominations, isn't that the case? We know there are ways to become stronger than an average mage when it comes to fighting demons and possession; Wynne, Morrigan, Flemeth, maybe the Dalish elves and their obscure mage methods. So why should these methods be ignored while resorting to a stagnant system? You can only say the probability is not realistic because we lack knowledge in that field, and the knowledge is suppressed or crushed by templars and the Chantry, just because they aren't part of the Circle they can control.

I haven't been able to seperate gameplay from lore? Look at you ignoring the lore that the templars could not do it, while the warden in a group of 4 could! You even went as far as to modifying the game to prove your point. Also one more thing your "demonstration" lacked, the templars did not have the warden's mind, which is the player, which factors into their competence level.

The Chantry could have been efficient, just not in the fields that benefit the mages. Do you disagree with that? They could also be efficient in subjugating opposing forces instead of being efficient by itself, ever thought of that?

Here's something to keep in mind, Chantry controls the Circle through templars, mages do not have freedom, the mages will not stop desiring their freedom, and they will always fight for it. So unless something changes, the cycle will repeat. This itself is a huge flaw in the system, so please stop viewing your Chantry with rose-tinted glasses.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Chris Readman wrote...

Again I say, show me where David Gaider says whatever he says. And don't get all pissy just because I'm telling you how I view the Chantry and templars while supporting mages.
US versus THEM? Mages may be different, but they do not belong to a THEM category. Your prejudice has already classed them into a different category despite them being humans as well. You even relate them to criminals when all they've done is seek their freedom.

As I see it mages are hardly even human. THey may look like it, but they aren't. It may look like a dog, walk like a dog, but once this dog starts breathing flame and shoot lightning out it's arse, it ceases being a dog.

The Chantry brings all mages into the Circle, despite the fact that these mages have existed without the help of either. Magical arts such as shapeshifting are foresaken just because they do not fit the curriculum, and I personally dislike the abandonment of knowledge.

Knowledge in the world of THedas can be dangerous, even fatal. THat is why some schools of magic are abbandoned, because they are too dangerous.

Nobody will need to hunt the hedge mages if they aren't abominations, isn't that the case? We know there are ways to become stronger than an average mage when it comes to fighting demons and possession; Wynne, Morrigan, Flemeth, maybe the Dalish elves and their obscure mage methods. So why should these methods be ignored while resorting to a stagnant system? You can only say the probability is not realistic because we lack knowledge in that field, and the knowledge is suppressed or crushed by templars and the Chantry, just because they aren't part of the Circle they can control.

They need to hunt appostates because they can't control them. The appostates could theoretically turn into an abomination any second and there would be no Templars to stop it.

I haven't been able to seperate gameplay from lore? Look at you ignoring the lore that the templars could not do it, while the warden in a group of 4 could! You even went as far as to modifying the game to prove your point. Also one more thing your "demonstration" lacked, the templars did not have the warden's mind, which is the player, which factors into their competence level.

Greagoir says he could clear the tower, but he is unwilling to risk anymore of his men.

The Chantry could have been efficient, just not in the fields that benefit the mages. Do you disagree with that? They could also be efficient in subjugating opposing forces instead of being efficient by itself, ever thought of that?
Here's something to keep in mind, Chantry controls the Circle through templars, mages do not have freedom, the mages will not stop desiring their freedom, and they will always fight for it. So unless something changes, the cycle will repeat. This itself is a huge flaw in the system, so please stop viewing your Chantry with rose-tinted glasses.

And you should stop seeing the mages likewise.

[Chris Readman]

Why hello again.

You're right, I've only been seeing the mages only in the positive light. Clearly I thought that they were the gods of the world, and clearly I've ignored the possibility of evil mages in my arguments. Thank you for showing me that mages are dogs which fart lightning.

And also, Greagoir is such a great guy, I mean, he totally thought of the templars which were left inside the tower, the ones that were his men as well.

Mages which are apostates will indeed turn into abominations, and there'd obviously no other scenario. I don't know what I was thinking when I thought that Morrigan and Flemeth's track record has proven otherwise.

Knowledge, I renounce you! I shall live the simple life of eating air. After all, knowledge is dangerous, and therefore ignorance must be safe!

Really educational, we should do it again sometime. Oh wait, knowledge=bad, I keep forgetting that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chris Readman wrote...

Again I say, show me where David Gaider says whatever he says. And don't get all pissy just because I'm telling you how I view the Chantry and templars while supporting mages.

Uuuhh..finding that specific post will be a bit more difficult. I do know he said that. Maybe someone else can confirm.


And no, I?m not pissy.

US versus THEM? Mages may be different, but they do not belong to a THEM category. Your prejudice has already classed them into a different category despite them being humans as well. You even relate them to criminals when all they've done is seek their freedom.

What prejudice?
Members of a certain group always divide themselves in "us" and "them". It's only natural - epsecialyl if you're frequently at odds with another groups.
Soldiers do it. Policemen do it. Competing towns do it. Schools do it.

And yes. A civilian fleeing a quarantene zone is also seeking his freedom. I'd still shoot him to stop him from escaping.

The Chantry brings all mages into the Circle, despite the fact that these mages have existed without the help of either.

The existance of mages wihout the circle is irrelevant. As I said, humanity coudl exist wihout the police..or fireman..or mental institutions. It jsut wouldn't be a nice existance,

Nobody will need to hunt the hedge mages if they aren't abominations, isn't that the case? We know there are ways to become stronger than an average mage when it comes to fighting demons and possession; Wynne, Morrigan, Flemeth, maybe the Dalish elves and their obscure mage methods. So why should these methods be ignored while resorting to a stagnant system?

Where do you get this from? A mage is ALWAYS in danger of possesion. Resisting a possesion attempt doesn't make you more resistant or immune. All it takes is one moment of weakness.
I really don't know what methods you're talking about here, since there IS no method that positively prevents possesion.
If hedge mages don't become abominations, there would be no abominations outside of the circels. And there are quite a few. So hedge mages seem to fal lto possesion quite often.

You can only say the probability is not realistic because we lack knowledge in that field, and the knowledge is suppressed or crushed by templars and the Chantry, just because they aren't part of the Circle they can control.

Erm..what? Probabiltiy of what?

I haven't been able to seperate gameplay from lore? Look at you ignoring the lore that the templars could not do it, while the warden in a group of 4 could! You even went as far as to modifying the game to prove your point. Also one more thing your "demonstration" lacked, the templars did not have the warden's mind, which is the player, which factors into their competence level.

... I really don't know how to comment this. How can someone miss the point so utterly and spectaculary is beyond me.
I really don't know how to explain to you the difference between gamepaly mechanics and lore, and the reasons the player suceeds....but I shall try.

In the DA "universe", there is no such thing as a player character or save games.
The player suceeds, because the game was made so he can succeed. He has save games. When he makes a mistake, he cna reload - again and again- till he gets it right. No one has that luxury in reality. A templar squad sent to clear the tower can't reload. In real-life, people don't risk their lives needlesly.
Lore sometimes take a back seat to reality. The templars didn't go in, because the player needs a challenge. So everyone comes off as pretty incompetent..because if they were, the player would have little to do.

"The player can do this, why can't X do that too?" is not an argument for anything. Never was.

Here's something to keep in mind, Chantry controls the Circle through templars, mages do not have freedom, the mages will not stop desiring their freedom, and they will always fight for it. So unless something changes, the cycle will repeat. This itself is a huge flaw in the system, so please stop viewing your Chantry with rose-tinted glasses.

Yes, prisoners will never stop wanting their freedom. Let's abolish all prisons. And mental institutions. And quaranteens...
Let's never hold people in confinement...regardless of the reason.<_<

[Knight Templar_]

Wow, heated debate.

Anyway I think I support the Chantry more than I oppose them. But that's from an in-character perspective.

If they were real I suppose I wouldn't like such an entity. But that's really beside the point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

MariSkep wrote...

Everyone stop feeding the god-bot. There's a reason I do everything within my power to ignore them in real life. They are incapable of applying critical thought to there position. They're like trolls only not as original.

Oh the irony.. THE IRONY.:lol::lol:

b.t.w. - insults with get you nowhere. If you ran out of argument or logic (or both), then mayhaps you should focus on a less intelectually demanding thread?

[Mr_Steph]

 Fight them!

[Chris Readman]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What prejudice?
Members of a certain group always divide themselves in "us" and "them". It's only natural - epsecialyl if you're frequently at odds with another groups.
Soldiers do it. Policemen do it. Competing towns do it. Schools do it.

And how is it not prejudice just because they do it? As long as you classify and take away the possibility that they are human just like you, it is discrimination and prejudice.

since there IS no method that positively prevents possesion

Morrigan and Flemeth seem to have found a way, have they not? Also it is noted that there is a link between lyrium deposits in dwarven lands and the lack of demons, further research can result in positive things.

If hedge mages don't become abominations, there would be no abominations outside of the circels. And there are quite a few. So hedge mages seem to fal lto possesion quite often.

The existence of demons does not equate to demons possessing mages. After all, the dwarven lands have a few demons, despite the fact that they are unable to inhabit dwarven bodies.

And "any creature that dreams might become the victim of demonic possession.". Any creature, not just mages. So those demons you've faced are not proven to be mages or otherwise. It is inconclusive evidence to either side.

Erm..what? Probabiltiy of what?

The probability of mages living without the need of templars. We don't know enough to prove either side of the argument.

In the DA "universe", there is no such thing as a player character or save games.
The player suceeds, because the game was made so he can succeed. He has save games. When he makes a mistake, he cna reload - again and again- till he gets it right. No one has that luxury in reality. A templar squad sent to clear the tower can't reload. In real-life, people don't risk their lives needlesly.
Lore sometimes take a back seat to reality. The templars didn't go in, because the player needs a challenge. So everyone comes off as pretty incompetent..because if they were, the player would have little to do.

"The player can do this, why can't X do that too?" is not an argument for anything. Never was.

Yup, the player can do things that others can't, the player is given opportunities to move the plot along. But the point is that the player did do the things that needed to be done when others didn't. If an NPC gives you a quest to fix a broken shovel when all he needed to do was enter the shop right behind him, do you not consider his incompetant?

Yes, prisoners will never stop wanting their freedom. Let's abolish all prisons. And mental institutions. And quaranteens...
Let's never hold people in confinement...regardless of the reason.<_<

Now where did I give you this idea to abolish the whole thing? Like I've said many times, my point is to enhance, not abolish. More freedom, not complete freedom. Humanise the whole situation, templars and mages should both be made to see the humanity of both sides as opposed to just "guard and prisoner".Stone walls do not a home make, but once mages can be convinced otherwise, there'd be less trouble.

Also, I find your attitude towards prisoners and the mentally ill highly insensitive. There are ones who have learned from their mistakes, and there are mentally challenged people who can integrate into our society. Same principle applies.

The condescending attitude you've displayed throughout this whole course is not going to get you anywhere by the way.

[RazorrX]

Actually, the reason the Templars hunt and kill run away mages is simple (and NO it is not because of Abominations).



According to the Chantry the circle is what the Maker demands. The maker gave the order that magic should serve man and not be rule him. This is why the mage circle exists, to make sure that magic serves rather than rule. Magic is a manifestation of the sin of Pride. Thus Magic is a sin and the circle tower is where that sin is kept in check.



Mages who are not a part of the circle are heretics, acting against the will of the maker. Thus the tempars are charged with hunting them down and bringing them to the tower where they can be contained/controlled/converted. With a lifetime of good and loyal servitude to the chantry, their sin of magic may be forgiven and they can go to the maker when they die.



Mages who FLEE the tower show a blatant disregard for the maker, indeed they spit on the makers laws and thus they are obviously going to break all of his laws, including the practice of blood magic. Thus, since they have shown that they are heretics, they are to be put down like the rabid dogs they are. This is why if you speak to a Templar or a Reverend Mother they will use the word "Apostate" interchangeably with "Malificar". To them they are the same as one is obviously going to be the other.



It is NOT because they can become abominations, it is because they have willingly turned from the Maker and have obviously returned to the worship of the old gods.

[Sir JK]

RazorrX wrote...

Actually, the reason the Templars hunt and kill run away mages is simple (and NO it is not because of Abominations).

According to the Chantry the circle is what the Maker demands. The maker gave the order that magic should serve man and not be rule him. This is why the mage circle exists, to make sure that magic serves rather than rule. Magic is a manifestation of the sin of Pride. Thus Magic is a sin and the circle tower is where that sin is kept in check.

Mages who are not a part of the circle are heretics, acting against the will of the maker. Thus the tempars are charged with hunting them down and bringing them to the tower where they can be contained/controlled/converted. With a lifetime of good and loyal servitude to the chantry, their sin of magic may be forgiven and they can go to the maker when they die.

Mages who FLEE the tower show a blatant disregard for the maker, indeed they spit on the makers laws and thus they are obviously going to break all of his laws, including the practice of blood magic. Thus, since they have shown that they are heretics, they are to be put down like the rabid dogs they are. This is why if you speak to a Templar or a Reverend Mother they will use the word "Apostate" interchangeably with "Malificar". To them they are the same as one is obviously going to be the other.

It is NOT because they can become abominations, it is because they have willingly turned from the Maker and have obviously returned to the worship of the old gods.

This is a brilliant analysis of the more radical views in the chantry on mages . Well written, I think it's spot on.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chris Readman wrote...

And how is it not prejudice just because they do it? As long as you classify and take away the possibility that they are human just like you, it is discrimination and prejudice.

Prejudice always exist in different mesures. And what are you blabbering about about "tanking the possibility of not being human"? Who the hell thinks that?
But what I am telling you taht it does happen and it's no more abnormal than any otehr gorups in the world. Including you. You place yourself in some groups, and oppose or come to blows with others.

In this example, you and I are in different camps regarding this issue. So yes, that does place us in the "us" and "them" scenario. Tehre si nothing abnormal about the templars in that regard.

Morrigan and Flemeth seem to have found a way, have they not?

No. Morrigan hasn't been possesed YET (that we know of. She could be an abomination), and Flemeth is suppsoedly already possesed.

Also it is noted that there is a link between lyrium deposits in dwarven lands and the lack of demons, further research can result in positive things.

No. There's plenty of lyrium in the Circle Tower, yet demons didn't have trouble poping there.

Where do you get this supposed "facts"?

The existence of demons does not equate to demons possessing mages. After all, the dwarven lands have a few demons, despite the fact that they are unable to inhabit dwarven bodies.

And "any creature that dreams might become the victim of demonic possession.". Any creature, not just mages. So those demons you've faced are not proven to be mages or otherwise. It is inconclusive evidence to either side.

Waht the hell are you talking about? You're loosing me...

We have seen abomination (possed mages) outside of hte cricle. Undesputable. We know, from lore, that tehy pop up al lthe time.

And yes, a non-mage can also be possesed, but it's very unlikely compared to mages, and the result ios FAR less powerfull and deadly.

The probability of mages living without the need of templars. We don't know enough to prove either side of the argument.

It's not hte question of weather mages can live wihout templars. The question is if it's a smart thing to do, and can everyone else live liek that.

[Chris Readman]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...Prejudice always exist in different mesures. And what are you blabbering about about "tanking the possibility of not being human"? Who the hell thinks that?
But what I am telling you taht it does happen and it's no more abnormal than any otehr gorups in the world. Including you. You place yourself in some groups, and oppose or come to blows with others.

In this example, you and I are in different camps regarding this issue. So yes, that does place us in the "us" and "them" scenario. Tehre si nothing abnormal about the templars in that regard.

See, you've put yourself as "US" and put me in "THEM", and making assumptions on how I think. The only way I think is "me" and "you"; two individuals with different beliefs, who do not necessarily have to fall within groups.

Yes I am aware that discrimination and prejudice exist in real life, but I am also aware that classifying people in groups will result in loss in information. Just because someone is Asian does not mean he's good at math, or someone who is gay might not be flamboyant. You also can't say that prejudice itself is a good thing.

No. Morrigan hasn't been possesed YET (that we know of. She could be an abomination), and Flemeth is suppsoedly already possesed.

Look at her resistance to the demons in the fade and tell me the likelihood of that happening, they can hardly even read her while the Circle-trained Wynne is falling to pieces. And even if Flemeth has been possessed, she appears to have retained her humanity and good sense has she not?

No. There's plenty of lyrium in the Circle Tower, yet demons didn't have trouble poping there.

Where do you get this supposed "facts"?

You'll probably scoff and dismiss it, but it's from the Dragon Age wiki.

Here's the whole paragraph: "There are few demons within dwarven
lands. This may be due to the inability of demons to inhabit dwarven
bodies, which would make such lands less than appealing, or it may be
connected to the natural deposits of lyrium found throughout dwarven territories. There are however examples of demons within the Deep Roads below Orzammar"

Waht the hell are you talking about? You're loosing me...

We have seen abomination (possed mages) outside of hte cricle. Undesputable. We know, from lore, that tehy pop up al lthe time.

And yes, a non-mage can also be possesed, but it's very unlikely compared to mages, and the result ios FAR less powerfull and deadly.

Look at the codex entry for the shade: "It has often been suggested that the only way for a demon to affect the
world of the living is by possessing a living (or once living) body, but
this is not always true. Indeed, a shade is one such creature: a demon
in its true form that has adapted to affect the world around it."
Doesn't require possession, there's one of your demons explained.

Also, I'd like to see some examples of your possessed mages. My memory is failing me at the moment.

It's not hte question of weather mages can live wihout templars. The question is if it's a smart thing to do, and can everyone else live liek that.

Smart is subjective is it not? Take for example a scenario if mages live by themselves isolated from the rest of the world, who are they going to affect but themselves? Also, according to the Chant of Light, mages are to serve mankind, how are they doing that by being locked up in the tower?

Also, allow me to reraise the question whether the annulment of mages and the killing of apostates is such a wise idea.

The Arcane Horror: "When a pride demon takes control of the corpse of a mage, an arcane horror is born."
It takes the CORPSE of a mage.

[Virginian]

After what was said here: http://social.biowar...45688/2#4851843

My support for destroying the Chantry is even greater. They hold way to much power. Then there is the fact they answere to no one but themselves.

They are a threat to every country they exist in. There is only one thing you do with threats, you either put it away in a deep dark dungeon or six feet under, preferably after bleeding a lot and some begging.

[ErichHartmann]

I don't recall anyone offering an alternative to the Chantry. You just can't destroy a pillar of the community and expect all will be well. True believers simply won't back down without a fight too. You would either have to exile them or simply kill them all.

[Giggles_Manically]

People are to concerned with wiping the chantry out.



In the past when that is tried the religion or group digs in and becomes stronger and more tightly knit.

Give it time and when nationalsim, secularism, and modernization arrive the chantry will crumble on its own, without a war or bloodshed.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The reason there is no demons in dwarven lands is because they've got no connection to the fade. When the dwarves sleep the sleep like the stone. For all intends and purposes they are like the Tranquil and are immune to possession. Their seperation from the fade also means there are no dwarven mages, and is the reason they can manipulate lyrium without dying, or losing their emotions.



You can't bring Flemeth up as an example of apostates not being possessed. First of all Morrigan first tells you that Flemeth is indeed an abomination. Second of all Morrigan later tells you that she has learned that Flemeth is something far more terrible than an abomination. The reason Morrigan havn't been possesd is probably because of her power of will and Flemeth's training.

[Chris Readman]

ErichHartmann wrote...

I don't recall anyone offering an alternative to the Chantry. You just can't destroy a pillar of the community and expect all will be well. True believers simply won't back down without a fight too. You would either have to exile them or simply kill them all.

Well, some do not even desire to completely destroy the Chantry, just changing it from within suffices.

For the others who wish for the destruction, I would presume that the destroying force will the the alternative, whatever it may be. Although I am not for this completely. But if my character were a mage, he'd probably fight the Chantry for the sake of self-survival, and even if not, Bethany is still his/her sister.

Modifié par Chris Readman, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[Chris Readman]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The reason there is no demons in dwarven lands is because they've got no connection to the fade. When the dwarves sleep the sleep like the stone. For all intends and purposes they are like the Tranquil and are immune to possession. Their seperation from the fade also means there are no dwarven mages, and is the reason they can manipulate lyrium without dying, or losing their emotions.

You can't bring Flemeth up as an example of apostates not being possessed. First of all Morrigan first tells you that Flemeth is indeed an abomination. Second of all Morrigan later tells you that she has learned that Flemeth is something far more terrible than an abomination. The reason Morrigan havn't been possesd is probably because of her power of will and Flemeth's training.

Oh, lookie here, it's Mr. Selective-Reading. There are demons in the dwarven lands, look it up. That's the point, you don't need mages to have demons. And thanks again for telling me things that are already common knowledge! I really appreciate this depth of the subject on dwarves that I am totally aware of even before this conversation.

Morrigan thinks she is worse than an abomination, but do we know this is truth? It might be Morrigan just expressing her "daughterly love" for her mother and being dramatic. Besides, humanity retained, sanity in check, I mentioned that, what's so bad about that? Besides the fact that she's a dog that breathes fire to you of course.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Chris Readman wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The reason there is no demons in dwarven lands is because they've got no connection to the fade. When the dwarves sleep the sleep like the stone. For all intends and purposes they are like the Tranquil and are immune to possession. Their seperation from the fade also means there are no dwarven mages, and is the reason they can manipulate lyrium without dying, or losing their emotions.

You can't bring Flemeth up as an example of apostates not being possessed. First of all Morrigan first tells you that Flemeth is indeed an abomination. Second of all Morrigan later tells you that she has learned that Flemeth is something far more terrible than an abomination. The reason Morrigan havn't been possesd is probably because of her power of will and Flemeth's training.

Oh, lookie here, it's Mr. Selective-Reading. There are demons in the dwarven lands, look it up. That's the point, you don't need mages to have demons. And thanks again for telling me things that are already common knowledge! I really appreciate this depth of the subject on dwarves that I am totally aware of even before this conversation.

Morrigan thinks she is worse than an abomination, but do we know this is truth? It might be Morrigan just expressing her "daughterly love" for her mother and being dramatic. Besides, humanity retained, sanity in check, I mentioned that, what's so bad about that? Besides the fact that she's a dog that breathes fire to you of course.

One of the only reasons there are demons in dwarven lands is probably because they are trapped there (like the Pride Demon from Asunder). And as you yourself quoted it is extremely rare for a demon to actually appear in dwarven lands from tehir own free will, most likely because they've got no reason at all to be there. There is nothing to sustain them.

Flemeth really came across as sane to you?... Wow...

[Costin_Razvan]

Give it time and when nationalsim, secularism, and modernization arrive the chantry will crumble on its own, without a war or bloodshed.

The Chantry is far more powerful then the Catholic Church ever was. so I do not see it crumbling as "easily" as the Papal States did.



And even if you are right, what you suggest would still take hundreds of years. You will have to excuse me if I want to wage war on the Chantry instead of letting their subjugation of mages of Templars continue.

[Chris Readman]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Flemeth really came across as sane to you?... Wow...

More sane and sensible than Cullen or even Cailan to me. Which parts of her speech are not sane to you?