1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Virginian]

ErichHartmann wrote...
I don't recall anyone offering an alternative to the Chantry.

The alternative to the Chantry is people stop being weak willed babies, grow a pair, and provide for themselves. If they can't do that then they should starve to death.

ErichHartmann wrote...
You just can't destroy a pillar of the community and expect all will be well.

I expect the weak willed babies who depend on the Chantry for everything will die and in my book that is a good thing. Survival of the fittest, they aren't fit at all and thus can't survive without leaching off other people, thus that makes them either parasites or leaches. What do you do with parasites and leaches? You either kill them or let them die.

ErichHartmann wrote...
True believers simply won't back down without a fight too.

Which only make all the more happy to put them down like the useless parasite they are.

ErichHartmann wrote...
You would either have to exile them or simply kill them all.

If I was to exile them they would only do the same in another country, that country is welcome to them but it will be far more fun and better for the planet if you end the plague that is the human parasite/leach.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Flemeth really came across as sane to you?

And very manipulative.

"That's the answer I was hoping for. An open mind yet not entirely made of mush."

You can call Flemeth crazy all you want but she's the only person in Thedas that has any clue on what's really going on.

That is probably because she is the puppeteer. Genius and madness often walk hand in hand.

[thegreateski]

Virginian wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...
I don't recall anyone offering an alternative to the Chantry.

The alternative to the Chantry is people stop being weak willed babies, grow a pair, and provide for themselves. If they can't do that then they should starve to death.

ErichHartmann wrote...
You just can't destroy a pillar of the community and expect all will be well.

I expect the weak willed babies who depend on the Chantry for everything will die and in my book that is a good thing. Survival of the fittest, they aren't fit at all and thus can't survive without leaching off other people, thus that makes them either parasites or leaches. What do you do with parasites and leaches? You either kill them or let them die.

ErichHartmann wrote...
True believers simply won't back down without a fight too.

Which only make all the more happy to put them down like the useless parasite they are.

ErichHartmann wrote...
You would either have to exile them or simply kill them all.

If I was to exile them they would only do the same in another country, that country is welcome to them but it will be far more fun and better for the planet if you end the plague that is the human parasite/leach.

Andrew Ryan? What are you doing wandering around without a 9-iron in your head?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Virginian wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...
I don't recall anyone offering an alternative to the Chantry.

The alternative to the Chantry is people stop being weak willed babies, grow a pair, and provide for themselves. If they can't do that then they should starve to death.

ErichHartmann wrote...
You just can't destroy a pillar of the community and expect all will be well.

I expect the weak willed babies who depend on the Chantry for everything will die and in my book that is a good thing. Survival of the fittest, they aren't fit at all and thus can't survive without leaching off other people, thus that makes them either parasites or leaches. What do you do with parasites and leaches? You either kill them or let them die.

ErichHartmann wrote...
True believers simply won't back down without a fight too.

Which only make all the more happy to put them down like the useless parasite they are.

ErichHartmann wrote...
You would either have to exile them or simply kill them all.

If I was to exile them they would only do the same in another country, that country is welcome to them but it will be far more fun and better for the planet if you end the plague that is the human parasite/leach.

Now this guy is on to something. The mages are too weak to ever truely be free, and should be put down for good. C'mon, really? More bloodshed? At least the others try to come with peaceful solutions or at least minimal bloodshed.

[Sir JK]

MariSkep wrote...
So you admit there are better ways to train mages than what the Chantry dictates and that being an apostate is no sign of corruption or possession?

A word of warning... we have no idea whatsoever how Flemeth teaches her daughters. Don't be so certain it is better.

[Virginian]

thegreateski wrote...
Andrew Ryan? What are you doing wandering around without a 9-iron in your head?

Who in the name of Satan is Andrew Ryan? As for 9-irons that game is for ******, layers, and politicians. Only a pathetic little wimp would use equipment from a game made for ****** as a weapon.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why is it more effective? Just because Morrigan havn't become possessed? That is just one example. You can't compare that to waht the circle is teaching to thousands of mages. Besides What the circles teaches has nothing to do with the Chantry. The circles themselves have enough autonomy to decide what and how tehy want to teach their students. They just wisely decides not to teach blood magic for instance as that would result in the death of them all. But if a circle decides not to teach entropy spells but focus on creation spells that is their decission, not the chantry's.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why is it more effective? Just because Morrigan havn't become possessed? That is just one example. You can't compare that to waht the circle is teaching to thousands of mages. Besides What the circles teaches has nothing to do with the Chantry. The circles themselves have enough autonomy to decide what and how tehy want to teach their students. They just wisely decides not to teach blood magic for instance as that would result in the death of them all. But if a circle decides not to teach entropy spells but focus on creation spells that is their decission, not the chantry's.

First of all the Circle doesn't have a lecture program. It's already heavily individualized so you can't say the Circle is teaching thousands of mages. One or two mentors is teaching a young apprentice the moment he walks in form a young age usually. The same as with Morrigan and Flemeth.

Secondly, no they don't. What they teach and how they teach is heavily reviewed by the Chantry. That annoying twit in Witch Hunt even balks at performing a very simple spell aimed at reveling theLights of Arlathan (or whatever it was) because of its similarity to blood magic. And the Chantry really does heavily limiy what you can and cannot study. They don't just out law blood magic. I've mentioned several times before how they outlaw autopsies on bodies because of whatever imagined association it has to Blood Magic.

The simple fact that there is a mentor and an apprentice shows there is a teaching program. Just not organized into classes. Though I do recall that there were an "Alternative weapons" class which was canceled because teh rooms used for that class was given to the Templars for lodging quarters. Though that isn't exactly magic that was taught there. And yes the chantry regulate and observe to make sure the apprenctices aren't taught blood magic, but that's about it. They don't barge in and make sure that the mages are taught in all the different schools or anything. That is completely up to the mentors and apprentices, and of course to the mages themselves after the Harrowing.
I must admit that I can't remember any mention of autopsies being outlawed, though I wouldn't find it strange in Thedas. Given their traditions of burning the corpses as fast as possible to avoid the corpse being possessed by a stray demon (Where is it mentioned btw? Would like to read the codex entry). 

[DarthCaine]

I just started reading the books and I'm starting to hate the Chantry more and more. It's just like Christianity, so I'm definitely gonna try to bring it down if given the chance

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

@Emperor, I saw it on the Wikia under the entry for Blood Magic.

" Indeed, the Chantry seems almost irrational in its fear of Blood Magic; going so far as to suppress anatomical study and ignoring more immediate or severe threats."

It's also in one of the books of arcane knowledge can't remember which one though.

Thank you, I'll go  check it out.

[Virginian]

DarthCaine wrote...

I just started reading the books and I'm starting to hate the Chantry more and more. It's just like Christianity, so I'm definitely gonna try to bring it down if given the chance

All I ever needed to know about it was the fact it is a religion. Religion is a plague that should be wiped out just like locusts.

[Everwarden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Flemeth really came across as sane to you?

And very manipulative.

"That's the answer I was hoping for. An open mind yet not entirely made of mush."

You can call Flemeth crazy all you want but she's the only person in Thedas that has any clue on what's really going on.

That is probably because she is the puppeteer. Genius and madness often walk hand in hand.

Flemeth didn't come across as insane to me. Eccentric, arrogant and dangerous, but not insane. I guess she could be considered crazy in the same way Hannibal Lecter is.

Emperor, I have a question. In the real world the advent of gunpowder made every human being capable of becoming just as dangerous as an abomination under the right psychological conditions. People can, and do, fly off the handle in the real world. 

Explain how, in any significant way, mages differ from mass murderers who use guns. Further, explain why we do not need to strictly control guns* in the same way that you seem to think mages need controlling in Thedas. I'm not saying they shouldn't be rounded up and trained to be responsible and disciplined with their power, but what you advocate is an utter abolishment of their human rights and imprisonment for the crime of existing, when the equivalent of  gun-safety classes would typically be enough to remove most of the danger involved in them having a little freedom.

*As I'm going to go out on a limb and peg you as a conservative, likely a fundamentalist, who would be opposed to gun control. Tell me if I'm wrong. 

[Giggles_Manically]

I wondered how long it was going to be before the "RELIGION IST EVIL" brigade showed up.

People are the problem, they will seize anything be it religion, politics, race, nation, or even modes of dress as a reason to make themselves feel better, or to use it to attack other groups. Religion is just a weapon to some, like most other ideologies it can be twisted.

[DMC12]

Virginian wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

I just started reading the books and I'm starting to hate the Chantry more and more. It's just like Christianity, so I'm definitely gonna try to bring it down if given the chance

All I ever needed to know about it was the fact it is a religion. Religion is a plague that should be wiped out just like locusts.

Death to the infidels!

I'd rather make the Chantry my puppet though.

[LobselVith8]

This discussion has made me hope that an apostate Hawke can rise up against the Chantry and crush it. It's not unprecedented. Toussaint L'Ouverture was a former slave who rose up in Saint Dominique and drove Napoleon out of modern day Haiti and gained his country independence. I see no reason why the mages couldn't rise up and emancipate themselves from the templars and the Chantry, even if it meant war.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Guardian's inability to know the future or that a deal was made with Kolgrim illustrates that he's not embued with divine abilities from the Maker. As for questions about lyrium, Sandal is an example of how exposure to the substance can change someone dramatically. If you have faith that the Maker exists in DA:O, that's fine, but there's no proof. You can't cite the Urn of Andraste and the Guardian as proof of the Maker's existance when the explanation of lyrium is provided as a valid alternative within the story of DA:O. The Guardian's ability to see into their pasts can be explained as a result of the lyrium, which seems to also change Sandal from a normal dwarf into one who somehow managed to clear an entire room of darkspawn. Oghren himself admits its the largest wall of lyrium he's ever experienced. As far as I'm concerned, I agree with Morrigan's assessment that there's no Maker.[/quote]

Nope. Lyrium isn't a good explanation.
Not only does the power of the ashes outstrip anything the Circle can come up with (despite having acess to many mages, spirit healers and lots of lyrium), but also mind-reading is not possible, even with blood magic. [/quote]

I'm glad you decided to completely ignore everything I wrote to write this rebuttal. Let me get this straight, you personally dislike that the writers have Oghren establish that the wall of lyrium is changing the temple and even the ashes, so you chose to ignore it? Maybe I should try that with David Gaider's reveal that the Magi boon doesn't happen.

First, you don't seem to understand lyrium. You realize that the scene with Sandal at the end of DA:O, the young dwarf who was altered by lyrium, suggests that he personally cleared an entire room of darkspawn, despite the fact that dwarves are said to be relatively immune to lyrium? Second, it's the thickest wall of lyrium that Oghren experienced, and there's no telling how it would impact anyone exposed to it (I doubt the lyrium that Sandal was exposed to as anywhere near that thick).

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You want an example? The Dales were taken over by Orlais and worship of the elven gods was forbidden.[/quote]

Ahem.... [/quote]

Yes, the Chantry forbid the worship of another religion.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If you bothered to read the templar chastity thread instead of assuming you're always correct, David Gaider said mages can't raise their own children even if they're married, and GWs are exempt from this because they are no longer tied to the Chantry. Unless you're presuming to know more about the mages than David Gaider, that is.
 [/quote]

And there were also examples of mages that earend such rights.
Like Wilhem. Do something to impress the Chantry and your reward may be life outside of the tower...with a family. [/quote]

You mean the one single mage with a family, who helped Prince Maric during the rebellion against Orlais and is mentioned in Stone Prisoner DLC? Yes, the next time Orlais decides to occupy Ferelden, a mage may be able to have a family if he or she helps the next ruler of Ferelden.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Just because you didn't bother to actually listen to the conversations in the game doesn't mean I'm wrong. Wynne says the Circle sided with Uldred when he revealed that Loghain would give them more freedom from the Chantry, but turned against him when Wynne arrived and revealed Loghain's betrayal. They confronted him about the truth of Loghain's treachery against the King, and Uldred turned against him with the aid of the blood mages.[/quote]

I don't recall the WHOLE cricle siding. Citation needed. [/quote]

Wynne mentions it in her discussion about what happened at the Circle if you speak with her after she's become part of the group - she also mentions what happened to Irving and how she came to look after the children. You can ask her if she regrets telling Irving after she reveals that the Circle sided with Uldred because Loghain had promised them more freedom from the Chantry (given how it's worded, it's likely more freedom and less of the restrictions they presently faced, not independence).

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dispute it all you want, but the Maker (David) sayeth otherwise.

[/quote]

And the rulers of Ferelden, Alistair and Anora, say otherwise. Your point?[/quote]

David Gaider  >>>> Alistair and Anora [/quote]

Would you like to cite David Gaider's comment about the templars? I'm curious to read it.
 
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If you're familiar with history, revolutions tend to involve bloodshed. Considering the oppressive reach that the Chantry has on Thedas, why shouldn't people want to dismantle it?[/quote]

At what point did you miss the "killing the majority". That's no revolution, that's mass murder.
And do you really think your desire for change justified the death of untold thousands?

Forget revolution...evolution. Less bloodshed. [/quote]

They're basically little more than slaves at the moment, fighting the Chantry's war against the Qunari and being turned into emotionless drones to craft runes on demand. Why shouldn't the mages rise up to gain their independence? Your solution is apparently for them to do nothing while they have no basic freedoms and are under Chantry authority.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The World? The Qunari don't believe in the Maker. Neither do the Dalish or the Dwarves. The humans of Orlais and Ferelden do, and I'm certain other parts of Thedas where the Chant of Light has spread. But humanity isn't the world, they're a group of people amongst others who have their own faith and their own ideas about what the truth of the world is. They're trying to force their religion onto other people, and have conquered lands in their aim to spread the Chant of Light. Considering the destruction of the Dales and the oppression of the mages, why shouldn't people want to destroy the Chantry? Yes, it'll involve a war with the Chantry, but if it means freedom, I can see why there are people who would take that risk.[/quote]

Again, humans are most numerous. Which would involve killing the majority in that revolution.
I'd also like to see all those "wars to spread the Chant" your'e talking about.

The Chatnry never went to war agaisnt the dwarves, nor does it force surface dwarves to worship the maker. They never started the war with the qunari, It's the qunari that invaded.
Opression of mages? Hardly.

So no. I don' see a single sensible reason to start a war of that magnitude.
It can only do far more harm than good. [/quote]
 
You seem to think that the mages having no rights is all right since they have magical ability, and I think it's completely absurd to deny a person the basic freedoms that everyone should be afforded. In addition, I never said the Chantry attacked the dwarves (although the Divine contemplates it if free mages are given sanctuary in Orzammar), I said that humanity isn't alone on Thedas and not everyone worships the Maker. I can cite only one dwarf from DA:O who actually believes in the Maker from the Chant in the Deep.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Given that the templars didn't do anything and Irving said the abomination Uldred would destroy them, I see no reason why we shouldn't trust a learned scholar of the arcane arts who has witnessed, first hand, what Uldred is capable of.[/quote]

Irwing is far from infalible, and again, there are no guarantees that Uldred would suceed. We didn't evne know how far the Templar reinforcements were. By the time Uldred finished his preparation, it might already be too late.

So it's useless to discuss what might have been, when we do not know what might have been. We can only specualte. [/quote]

Greagoir mentions that word was already sent to Denerim, but no reinforcements ever come. Since Loghain struck an alliance with Uldred, it's likely that he may have taken steps to make sure that there were no reinforcements. He was paranoid about Orlais, and since the Chantry is seated in Orlais, he may have wanted to prevent that. And the basis for Uldred's capabilities of defeating the templars is Irving, who has witnessed Uldred and the other abominations building an army to take them out - which they did when Uldred and the blood mages first revolted in the Circle Tower. Why assume that he's incorrect when he has first-hand knowledge of the threat?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Templars are also armored and armed drug addicts who have no oversight.[/quote]

UNPROVEN. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. Obviously they do have at elast some oversight. Gregoair had to ask for premission to anull the tower, after all. [/quote]

I'm not disputing that there are higher ranking members of the Chantry, such as the Divine, but there are only the templars in the tower. Greagoir doesn't need to ask anyone's permission to murder Jowan, after all, or send Lily to Aeonar. Even Irving had to submit to Greagoir's ruling against Jowan despite the fact that he didn't see any alleged evidence against Jowan.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, templars have a historical record of murdering men, women, and children for over 700 years.[/quote]

So do soldiers of any military force involved in a war or containment operations.
Fact remain, that there we no major abomination outbreaks. And that IS the templars job. To prevent those from happening.

[/quote]

There were no apparent outbreaks among the Dalish clans or Kolgrim's Dragon Andraste religious members, so evidently they aren't really needed to prevent abominations.
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Cullen references that some of his fellow templars talk in glee about killing mages, they take away their children the moment they're born, and they kill mages who run away, regardless of the reason. So yes, I think it's bad. You're welcome to disagree.[/quote]

Again with this crap?

Look, some soldiers talk in glee about how the killed/will kill. Soem police officers love beating a perp.
I dont' see you campaigning to destroy hte police and military. [/quote]

I'm not living under military supervision and being denied the right to marry (as some Circles do) or the right to have children (as all of them do with the exception of one mage who saved King Maric and all who become Grey Wardens). People rebel when they live under oppression, like the Cuban rebels did to overthrow the dictator Batista.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Greagoir also allowed it to happen. He references that he could have acted sooner, but didn't, based on Irving's suggestion. That doesn't change the fact that he wants to punish the Warden for helping Jowan regardless of Greagoir being well aware of the plan and waiting outside the chamber with his templars to ambush them.[/quote]

Gregoir is NOT aware of the plan, as Irwing clearly didn't tell him everything. He didn't know you were there on Irwings orders untill Irwing told him..AFTER he caught you breaking in. Which makes Irwing stupid too, as he should have told him eariler.  What should Gregoir think now? Is Irwing covering for you or did he really order you in?
He was pissed yes. It didn't really strike me like he would really punish the PC, he just needed to vent and cool down.

And since we're at it, anyone notice how quickly the templars caught Jowan, even wihout the plachietry?
[/quote]

He's not aware that the Warden was acting on Irving's orders, but given how many templars are outside the doors of the chamber, I'd warrant that he's well aware of what Jowan was doing, which is why he orders his immediate execution. He's only angry at the plan because Jowan escaped and was more powerful than he had anticipated.

Again, I'll never doubt the templars ability or willingness to kill a mage.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]Chris Readman wrote...

Again I say, show me where David Gaider says whatever he says. And don't get all pissy just because I'm telling you how I view the Chantry and templars while supporting mages.
US versus THEM? Mages may be different, but they do not belong to a THEM category. Your prejudice has already classed them into a different category despite them being humans as well. You even relate them to criminals when all they've done is seek their freedom.[/quote]
As I see it mages are hardly even human. THey may look like it, but they aren't. It may look like a dog, walk like a dog, but once this dog starts breathing flame and shoot lightning out it's arse, it ceases being a dog. [/quote]

I think Germany once employed a similiar train of thought with people who were different... 

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Everwarden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Flemeth really came across as sane to you?

And very manipulative.

"That's the answer I was hoping for. An open mind yet not entirely made of mush."

You can call Flemeth crazy all you want but she's the only person in Thedas that has any clue on what's really going on.

That is probably because she is the puppeteer. Genius and madness often walk hand in hand.

Flemeth didn't come across as insane to me. Eccentric, arrogant and dangerous, but not insane. I guess she could be considered crazy in the same way Hannibal Lecter is.

Emperor, I have a question. In the real world the advent of gunpowder made every human being capable of becoming just as dangerous as an abomination under the right psychological conditions. People can, and do, fly off the handle in the real world. 

Explain how, in any significant way, mages differ from mass murderers who use guns. Further, explain why we do not need to strictly control guns* in the same way that you seem to think mages need controlling in Thedas. I'm not saying they shouldn't be rounded up and trained to be responsible and disciplined with their power, but what you advocate is an utter abolishment of their human rights and imprisonment for the crime of existing, when the equivalent of  gun-safety classes would typically be enough to remove most of the danger involved in them having a little freedom.

*As I'm going to go out on a limb and peg you as a conservative, likely a fundamentalist, who would be opposed to gun control. Tell me if I'm wrong. 

By all that is sweet and holy in this world, I am for gun control. Absolutely. If it were up to me every single firearm in the world would be dismantled. I see no reason for any civilian to ever bear firearms. It should be taken away from them. The problem with mages is: You can't (okay, you can tranquilize them, seems rather extreme though). So you need some way to control them, from doing harm to themselves and others.

All that "pro-Qunari" and "kill them all stuff" has been purely to provoke all the "RAWR!!! Religion is zeh evul! must kill them all!!1one" morons and fools out there. I utterly ahte that kind of person who thinks it all comes down to which belief the persons follows instead of the actual person. In short: I said those things to act as the counterweight to all the other morons. Gasoline on the fire, dangerous I know, but a point needed to be shown.

[Everwarden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By all that is sweet and holy in this world, I am for gun control. Absolutely. If it were up to me every single firearm in the world would be dismantled. I see no reason for any civilian to ever bear firearms. It should be taken away from them. The problem with mages is: You can't (okay, you can tranquilize them, seems rather extreme though). So you need some way to control them, from doing harm to themselves and others.

All that "pro-Qunari" and "kill them all stuff" has been purely to provoke all the "RAWR!!! Religion is zeh evul! must kill them all!!1one" morons and fools out there. I utterly ahte that kind of person who thinks it all comes down to which belief the persons follows instead of the actual person. In short: I said those things to act as the counterweight to all the other morons. Gasoline on the fire, dangerous I know, but a point needed to be shown.

So you counter ranting zealots by.. posing as a ranting zealot? Excellent tactic there. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Everwarden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By all that is sweet and holy in this world, I am for gun control. Absolutely. If it were up to me every single firearm in the world would be dismantled. I see no reason for any civilian to ever bear firearms. It should be taken away from them. The problem with mages is: You can't (okay, you can tranquilize them, seems rather extreme though). So you need some way to control them, from doing harm to themselves and others.

All that "pro-Qunari" and "kill them all stuff" has been purely to provoke all the "RAWR!!! Religion is zeh evul! must kill them all!!1one" morons and fools out there. I utterly ahte that kind of person who thinks it all comes down to which belief the persons follows instead of the actual person. In short: I said those things to act as the counterweight to all the other morons. Gasoline on the fire, dangerous I know, but a point needed to be shown.

So you counter ranting zealots by.. posing as a ranting zealot? Excellent tactic there. 

Who said anything about countering? I provoke them. Though in truth I am leaning mostly towards the status quo in the tower, though some freedoms could be given the mages. Like permission to leave the tower (only once they've completed their Harrowing though). Though keeping their own children is still an absolute no-go, its simply too dangerous.