1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Riona45]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Mages live far better lives than most people, even if they are caged/monitored. The templars are not very threatening at all, as long as you are not a blood mage and remain polite, they are nothing more than decoration in the Circles and chantries.

That seemed to be the case in the Ferelden Circle (from what we see in the game, anyway), but the Kirkwall timeline that was released a while ago suggested that the atmosphere in the Kirkwall Circle is much more threatening.  Point being that what was true in Ferelden is probably not the case everywhere.

[SkittlesKat96]

Probably not, the Templars however I possibly would because I think mages should get a little bit more power, but not too much power else they might do bad stuff to the world.



I don't think I believe in the maker (although you CAN speak to Andraste when you get the ashes, so maybe the maker is real?) but the Chantry don't do any harm at all.

[Daerog]

Riona45 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Mages live far better lives than most people, even if they are caged/monitored. The templars are not very threatening at all, as long as you are not a blood mage and remain polite, they are nothing more than decoration in the Circles and chantries.

That seemed to be the case in the Ferelden Circle (from what we see in the game, anyway), but the Kirkwall timeline that was released a while ago suggested that the atmosphere in the Kirkwall Circle is much more threatening.  Point being that what was true in Ferelden is probably not the case everywhere.

This is true, and it did slip my mind. So, I guess I'll just change it to: At least they are given shelter, food, and are supposed to be treated as people. Although, people can still be cruel to each other. The Chantry still doesn't think a mage should be treated as an animal or anything, but as a possible danger that needs to be monitored, educated, and tested.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, let's see here: the Chantry oppresses mages and basically drugs the Templars with lyrium to keep them under its thumb. I wouldn't be adverse to being a rebel and fighting against the Chantry, but there could be a larger threat requiring us to work together.

[Oblivious]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...
I don't think I believe in the maker (although you CAN speak to Andraste when you get the ashes, so maybe the maker is real?) but the Chantry don't do any harm at all.

*cough*TheyCommitedGenocideAgainstElvesAndPeopleTheyDidn'tLike*cough* wow, that was a nasty cough. And you never speak to Andraste, you speak to a spirit. As Justice pointed out, just because theres a spirit doesn't mean there's a Maker.

Personally, I will take great pleasure in tearing the Chantry down stone-by-stone and ripping every believer in half:devil: The ignorant should learn their place, Mages are the only true power in this world!

[Daerog]

Oblivious wrote...

SkittlesKat96 wrote...
I don't think I believe in the maker (although you CAN speak to Andraste when you get the ashes, so maybe the maker is real?) but the Chantry don't do any harm at all.

*cough*TheyCommitedGenocideAgainstElvesAndPeopleTheyDidn'tLike*cough* wow, that was a nasty cough. And you never speak to Andraste, you speak to a spirit. As Justice pointed out, just because theres a spirit doesn't mean there's a Maker.

Personally, I will take great pleasure in tearing the Chantry down stone-by-stone and ripping every believer in half:devil: The ignorant should learn their place, Mages are the only true power in this world!

Genocide? No... unless genocide now means conquering instead of executing/murdering/killing. The Chantry is/was not out to kill/slaughter/purge groups of people. Yes, they led Exalted Marches, but it is for the purpose of conquering and not genocide.

Again, not genocide unless you consider every war fought against another an act of genocide.

[Riona45]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
At least they are given shelter, food, and are supposed to be treated as people.

You don't deserve props for doing what you're supposed to do in the first place, and as said before we don't know how dehumanizing life is for mages in Circles outside of Ferelden.

That being said, I would argue that the policy of the Chantry taking away any children that a mage has is treating both parties more like animals or possessions than people.

[Oblivious]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Oblivious wrote...

SkittlesKat96 wrote...
I don't think I believe in the maker (although you CAN speak to Andraste when you get the ashes, so maybe the maker is real?) but the Chantry don't do any harm at all.

*cough*TheyCommitedGenocideAgainstElvesAndPeopleTheyDidn'tLike*cough* wow, that was a nasty cough. And you never speak to Andraste, you speak to a spirit. As Justice pointed out, just because theres a spirit doesn't mean there's a Maker.

Personally, I will take great pleasure in tearing the Chantry down stone-by-stone and ripping every believer in half:devil: The ignorant should learn their place, Mages are the only true power in this world!

Genocide? No... unless genocide now means conquering instead of executing/murdering/killing. The Chantry is/was not out to kill/slaughter/purge groups of people. Yes, they led Exalted Marches, but it is for the purpose of conquering and not genocide.

Again, not genocide unless you consider every war fought against another an act of genocide.

What the purposes of the wars were depends on who you believe, the Dalish or the Chantry. But seeing as to how the Dales were systematically executed for their race and how the Chantry attempts to achieve the same results with the Qunari because of they culture and the Tevinter Imperium because of their politics please excuse me for being a bit anti-chantry.

Genocide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide

[KLUME777]

I see a lot of people complaining about the chantry beating down on the mages.

However, lets just think for a moment.

Suppose there was no circle towers, and mages just lived wherever they were born, without protection or education against demons. THEY WOULD ALL BE POSSESESED! The circle tower and hunting down apostates is neccassary, as they are a danger to the rest of the world, with Conner as evidence.

[Daerog]

Oblivious wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Genocide? No... unless genocide now means conquering instead of executing/murdering/killing. The Chantry is/was not out to kill/slaughter/purge groups of people. Yes, they led Exalted Marches, but it is for the purpose of conquering and not genocide.

Again, not genocide unless you consider every war fought against another an act of genocide.

What the purposes of the wars were depends on who you believe, the Dalish or the Chantry. But seeing as to how the Dales were systematically executed for their race and how the Chantry attempts to achieve the same results with the Qunari because of they culture and the Tevinter Imperium because of their politics please excuse me for being a bit anti-chantry.

Genocide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide

Hmmm... they weren't really trying to exterminate the group though. They set up alienages, not death camps. Destroy their identity of being Dalish or following the Qun or Imperial Chantry, sure, but I'm not so sure that's considered genocide. If a country conquers another and declares it part of the winning nation, did the winning nation commit genocide? Did Joan of Arc commit genocide by trying to drive out the English from France? Kind of similar to the Exalted Marches on the qunari. I don't think genocide fits.

Also, don't mind if you are anti-chantry, don't see why you need to excuse yourself, its a fake world. I was just saying I don't think the word "genocide" fits. Certainly the chantry isn't perfect with its concentration camps of mages and, as been said, stealing of children. I like to play in support of the chantry, not saying I think they are all holy and such.

I could be wrong with how genocide works, I'm not an English professor or anything.

[0rz0]

Well, seems it would be an interesting twist if the chantry was right all along and we'd get to see the true meaning of the allegories used.

But I think for the sake of religion in the game the developers will keep all of them shrouded in a bit of mistery, represented as political powers only.

[FDrage]

Help them,

because mages are incapable of regulating themselves 9e.g. Tevinter, Flemeth, my own warden, etc ...). Beside the Chantry did a lot of good things, for people like Lelianna. Also, as fruitless as it was, the Templar were the only real fighting force left in Lothering after it was abandoned by the local Lord (granted as the order of the man in charge).

Oblivious wrote...

What the purposes of the wars were depends on who you believe, the Dalish or the Chantry. But seeing as to how the Dales were systematically executed for their race and how the Chantry attempts to achieve the same results with the Qunari because of they culture and the Tevinter Imperium because of their politics please excuse me for being a bit anti-chantry.

Genocide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide

Considering
that the Qunari do eaxtly what you said the Chantry is suppsoe to do and in a way the same with the Tevinter Imperium (afterall without the Tevinter Imperium there might never have been a Dalish "Culture") ... I'd they the Chantry could be the lesser of these 3 "evils" ... maybe.

Modifié par FDrage, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[FDrage]

<double post>

Modifié par FDrage, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Oblivious wrote...
*cough*TheyCommitedGenocideAgainstElvesAndPeopleTheyDidn'tLike*cough* wow, that was a nasty cough.

So did the united states (american indians).  Would that make me justified in destroying them? Or any other state for that matter. Or any other large organization?

When you have a huge organization with hunderds of thousands of memebrs and power, **** WILL HAPPEN..occasionally.

[KLUME777]

Riona45 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
At least they are given shelter, food, and are supposed to be treated as people.

You don't deserve props for doing what you're supposed to do in the first place, and as said before we don't know how dehumanizing life is for mages in Circles outside of Ferelden.

That being said, I would argue that the policy of the Chantry taking away any children that a mage has is treating both parties more like animals or possessions than people.

The Mages (who are not apostate) agree with taking away other young mages, as they are a danger to society. The village or town is more important than a single child, who will probably have a better life at the tower anyway, where they are in an environment surrounded by others who are mages, are educated and live very well, as opposed to being ostracised by the other kids in the village and dying of scurvy and the plague.

[Pzykozis]

Burn every single last corpse to ash collect it all up distill it, make a fine drink from chantry ashes and have a good night and proceed to vomit / excrete ashes all over the place! Mmm.



Too much?



Nah, but really the chantry is... dodgy, controlling and destroying the minds of its Templars through lyrium addiction, oppressing the mages for simply being born, and no not being in the circle doesn't imply instant demonification.



Hedge wizzards, Keepers and various other mages exist without being abominations, the very fact that the chantry oppresses the mages opens the way for demons to possess people (demons can offer freedom for mages or in the same way as mouse play the poor oppressed mage card), the same goes for blood magic, various people use it for an end and they don't even sacrifice people to power it, they use their own lifeforce, I can't see what's inherently evil about that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Riona45 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
At least they are given shelter, food, and are supposed to be treated as people.

You don't deserve props for doing what you're supposed to do in the first place, and as said before we don't know how dehumanizing life is for mages in Circles outside of Ferelden.

Since when is Chantry supposed to just give shelter, food and clothing to people?
Mantaining a Circle isn't cheap. Those mage robes and staves, and all of their books don't make themselves.

[Sharn01]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Oblivious wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Genocide? No... unless genocide now means conquering instead of executing/murdering/killing. The Chantry is/was not out to kill/slaughter/purge groups of people. Yes, they led Exalted Marches, but it is for the purpose of conquering and not genocide.

Again, not genocide unless you consider every war fought against another an act of genocide.

What the purposes of the wars were depends on who you believe, the Dalish or the Chantry. But seeing as to how the Dales were systematically executed for their race and how the Chantry attempts to achieve the same results with the Qunari because of they culture and the Tevinter Imperium because of their politics please excuse me for being a bit anti-chantry.

Genocide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide

Hmmm... they weren't really trying to exterminate the group though. They set up alienages, not death camps. Destroy their identity of being Dalish or following the Qun or Imperial Chantry, sure, but I'm not so sure that's considered genocide. If a country conquers another and declares it part of the winning nation, did the winning nation commit genocide? Did Joan of Arc commit genocide by trying to drive out the English from France? Kind of similar to the Exalted Marches on the qunari. I don't think genocide fits.

Also, don't mind if you are anti-chantry, don't see why you need to excuse yourself, its a fake world. I was just saying I don't think the word "genocide" fits. Certainly the chantry isn't perfect with its concentration camps of mages and, as been said, stealing of children. I like to play in support of the chantry, not saying I think they are all holy and such.

I could be wrong with how genocide works, I'm not an English professor or anything.

Regardless of whether or not its genocide.  Initiating wars against anyone who does not follow your religious belief to subjigate them under your rule and force them to worship as you do, is harmful, which you said the chantry isnt.

[wwwwowwww]

KLUME777 wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
At least they are given shelter, food, and are supposed to be treated as people.

You don't deserve props for doing what you're supposed to do in the first place, and as said before we don't know how dehumanizing life is for mages in Circles outside of Ferelden.

That being said, I would argue that the policy of the Chantry taking away any children that a mage has is treating both parties more like animals or possessions than people.

The Mages (who are not apostate) agree with taking away other young mages, as they are a danger to society. The village or town is more important than a single child, who will probably have a better life at the tower anyway, where they are in an environment surrounded by others who are mages, are educated and live very well, as opposed to being ostracised by the other kids in the village and dying of scurvy and the plague.

It's called brainwashing and fear, that's why they "agree"

[Daerog]

Sharn01 wrote...

Regardless of whether or not its genocide.  Initiating wars against anyone who does not follow your religious belief to subjigate them under your rule and force them to worship as you do, is harmful, which you said the chantry isnt.

I never said the Chantry did no harm, I just said they did more good than ill. All war, no matter the reason, good or evil, is always harmful.

[Marionetten]

Destroy it. After that, we'll see about abolishing the Qun and liberating the qunari mages.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Sry but your opinion sucks.

First off Connor isn't a blood mage. Any mage can be possessed by demons, not just blood mages.

Also mages could control themselves, they don't need the Chantry or Templars. Yes, we have seen the Circle Tower and we have seen how the Templars failed to do their job. Also I think it is made clear that some mages only joined Uldred because of the repressive ways of the Chantry.

If people start thinking the only way to deal with people who are different is to lock them in a tower then it is really sad. It is still a difference to me if people are actually criminals or are merely born with some sort of talent that not everyone possesses, even if it is potentially dangerous.

No, his oppinions are correct.

The templars are the circle tower didn't fail. They contained the abominations in the tower and there was a whoel army of templars incoming to clean the place. No abominations escaping the tower is the goal.
Also, no matter what politics you choose there will be peopel who wil lresent that. Mages resent that they live in a golden cage? Not surprising. You honestly belive things would be better wihout the towers?

Again, you're applying real world paraels to Thedas. IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. Especially when the paralels don't fit.  Mages are not like any human you know. They are exceptionally dangerous. If tehy were real, you'd be singing a different tune.

They contained them for the moment. We don't know what would have happend if the Warden had not showed up to solve the situation. I still don't see why the mages need templars to guard them, when the mages could do it themselves. But it doesn't even matter since whether they failed or not, their actions are morally questionable. And you can't have someone morally questionable playing god.

[Wulfram]

Depends on the character, but Hawke's sister is an apostate, which probably puts him fairly squarely against the chantry

[Zreon]

As a friend and fan of the Dalish, I feel rather reserved towards the Chantry. I wouldn't necessarily try to destroy them, but at the very least lessen their influence if I could. Reform would be nice, but if they really act like the Spanish Inquisition in Kirkwall, I would not hesitate to fight them.

[Collider]

Depends completely on the context. The Chantry isn't completely vile.