1503 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

Everwarden wrote...

Emperor, I have a question. In the real world the advent of gunpowder made every human being capable of becoming just as dangerous as an abomination under the right psychological conditions. People can, and do, fly off the handle in the real world.

Explain how, in any significant way, mages differ from mass murderers who use guns. Further, explain why we do not need to strictly control guns* in the same way that you seem to think mages need controlling in Thedas. I'm not saying they shouldn't be rounded up and trained to be responsible and disciplined with their power, but what you advocate is an utter abolishment of their human rights and imprisonment for the crime of existing, when the equivalent of  gun-safety classes would typically be enough to remove most of the danger involved in them having a little freedom.

If I may...?

The difference between magic and a modern firearm is that:

1. You can take away the firearm without hurting someone (in theory), unlike magic in DAO which needs tranquilisation.
2. Noone is born with a firearm, but it is an aquired skill. Magic is something inherent however, something noone can prevent someone from developing. Power by merit of birth (remember, even mediveal political power is aquired. This is not).
3. Firearms doesn't include the risk of demonic posession where even a calm and composed person can turn into a monster.
4. Firearms doesn't use people as ammunition (admittedly, only applies to blood magic).

This is of course only why it needs to be controlled... not excusing why some mages are treated horribly by some templars. For that there is no excuse... but there is a explanation:

1. Noone but mages neither do or can understand what magic really is. Not even the templars can truly understand how it works. To anyone but a mage, this makes it uncontrollable and more like a force of nature than the skills of a person. It scares them... a lot.
2. Mages are born with true power in their very fingertips. All other power in society is something given, a noble is only powerful if his subjects obeys him and thus can be taken back. But noone can revoke the power a mage has got, noone can take it back if they're uncomfortable with that people having it. People feel forced to respect them since they're always stronger than you... stronger than the strongest person alive.
3. Noone understands how difficult or easy it is for a mage to be posessed. Will I have a chance to put myself or my family in safety? Will it go so quickly I won't feel a thing? Is it possible the mage is already posessed and just waiting for a chance to devour my soul?
4. The cycle of violence, this really only applies to templars and the ones close to them, but every time a mage rises up and tries to shrug off the chantry... it leads to templars getting hurt or dying. You know how the police gets when there's a cop-killer loose? This is the same thing... the Templar's start hitting back, subtly, through opression. Which makes more mages rise... more templars dies... and they hit back... even harder.
5. The Tevinter Imperium.

1-3 are the most basic ones and the reason why people are uncomfortable with mages. It cannot really by trained away and even templars (or maybe especially templars) are subject to it. It can be dealt with if people learn to trust mages however... but that is a lot to ask for and something that will take time to build up.
4 and 5 is the reason why people have difficulties trusting mages. The templars have through the years been taught that if they let their guard drop and start treating mages nice... they die. It's made worse that many mages view them as enemies and treat them as such. This prompts the chantry and templars to treat the mages the same way... as enemies.
And five is a real fundamental reason why noone dares to trust mages... because even if it was thousands of years ago, the Tevinter Imperiums mages used their magic to enslave non-mages. This has branded all mages forever... not because people think the modern mages will do it. But because they know they can...

That's why mages gets such horrific treatment... it's because everyone is just human. Scared lonely humans before a uncontrollable force they can never understand. This will never really change... perhaps, with a great deal of effort from all sides mages can become tolerated enough to lead a better life.

The problem is that someone have to take that first step...

[LobselVith8]

In regarding to the Chantry's actions during the Orlesian occupation and why I'd fight the Chantry in DA2:

Aratham Darksight wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There's no stopping rape and crime during war. Also, if Orlais was dead-set on conquering Ferelden, could the Cahtnry change anything?

For example, I supported the war of independance here in my country. Were there soldeirs who did terrible things during that war? Yes. Am I responsible for that? Did I support or wish for that? No.

Maybe they could have changed something, maybe not. The Chantry has immense political influence throughout Thedas and Orlais is its center of power. It's very important for rulers and nobles to be in good standing with the Chantry - or at least appear to be. They run many essential civil services and thus have the power to shut down entire countires, if they wished. They have huge leverage over the mage circles, as well.

They have plenty of tools, if they wanted to do the right thing instead of the safe one. However, not only did they not try to oppose the war and occupation, apparently they outright supported it.

You seem to have shifted your argument here, from saying that it's all right to cheerlead war (which will bring rape, pillage and suffering with it) against Ferelden merely for not being "civilized enough", to saying that the Chantry was against it, but simply had no power to stop it.

And that condemnation was not enough, as we all seen. The Chantry is powerfull, but not that powerfull. It's still just one of the players on the scene. It cannot order kigns around.

It didn't turn the situation around immediately, but then again the Grand Cleric of Ferelden is not the Divine, she was only condemning Loghain's methods, not is his goals and we don't know what would have happened in the long run. If Loghain had prevailed and reigned over Ferelden with this condemnation standing, that would have probably had ramifications.

In medieval times, the pope could very much order kings around and he didn't have mages and lyrium-powered knights.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Pope could do no such things. He knew just as well as the kigns that his power was fleeting. Only while having the political upperhand did the pope ever order a king to do anything. Actually quite often it was the kings who "persuaded" the pope into following their agendas.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

i would fight them

they're a bunch of douchebags who took the elves other homeland just because they wouldnt worship the maker

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Pope could do no such things. He knew just as well as the kigns that his power was fleeting. Only while having the political upperhand did the pope ever order a king to do anything. Actually quite often it was the kings who "persuaded" the pope into following their agendas.

Actually, the Pope had a great deal of power as the leader of the Church and often struggled for power with monarchs in medieval times, including Pope Julius II, also known as the Warrior Pope, who fathered children and established the Swiss Guard, overthrew Giampolo Baglioni and Giovanni II Bentivoglio from Perugia and Bologna, and fought in wars. To get back on point, the Chantry of Andraste played a major role in the fall of the Dales and is seeking to force their religion throughout Thedas, leading Exalted Marches against people they view as unfaithful, they've forbidden the worship of the elven gods and treat the mages as little more than slaves, so I don't see why they shouldn't be dismantled.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, the Pope had a great deal of power as the leader of the Church and often struggled for power with monarchs in medieval times, including Pope Julius II, also known as the Warrior Pope, who fathered children and established the Swiss Guard, overthrew Giampolo Baglioni and Giovanni II Bentivoglio from Perugia and Bologna, and fought in wars. To get back on point, the Chantry of Andraste played a major role in the fall of the Dales and is seeking to force their religion throughout Thedas, leading Exalted Marches against people they view as unfaithful, they've forbidden the worship of the elven gods and treat the mages as little more than slaves, so I don't see why they shouldn't be dismantled.

But a great deal of popes were also assassinated, several election were rigged by monarchs and cardinals alike and at one point the emperor just had enough and chose his own pope (called the anti-pope). At one point there were even three of them.

Same thing applies to the chantry... a strong and influental divine will be able to control nations. A weak one will be the orlesian emperor's puppet (or someone else's) or irellevant.

[DMC12]

LobselVith8 wrote...

...the Chantry of Andraste played a major role in the fall of the Dales and is seeking to force their religion throughout Thedas, leading Exalted Marches against people they view as unfaithful, they've forbidden the worship of the elven gods and treat the mages as little more than slaves, so I don't see why they shouldn't be dismantled.

When you put it like that, the Chantry gets **** done. From a moral, yeah it's bad, poor elves and whatever. But from a Machiavellian stand point, it helped develop the lands to be put to better use by their human conquerors. The strongest shall prevail.

Eventually someone or something stronger will take down the Chantry, but I think that's where the Qunari and Flemeth's army will come into play. Maybe.

Modifié par DMC12, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Lumikki]

MariSkep wrote...

1. Noone but mages neither do or can understand what magic really is. Not even the templars can truly understand how it works. To anyone but a mage, this makes it uncontrollable and more like a force of nature than the skills of a person. It scares them... a lot.

This actually isn't true. Anyone with proper will and supply of lyrium/blood can practice magic (from what I understand). And anyone is capable of understanding how magic interacts with the world and even help advance the theory behind the different schools as Dagna demonstrates. I know her work was largely about lyrium use but the same idea applies to any other field. You'd just need a mage to perform the actual experiments.

As I have understod, no-one can practice magic, unless they have born with gift of magic. You can drink "lyrium" and even become sick by it, but you can't do magic, if you don't have the gift. It's not something what can be learn. You can learn to use magic only if you have the gift of magic, you are born with it. It's like you have essense of magic in lyrium, but person without the gift miss the proper connections to it.

3. Noone understands how difficult or easy it is for a mage to be posessed. Will I have a chance to put myself or my family in safety? Will it go so quickly I won't feel a thing? Is it possible the mage is already posessed and just waiting for a chance to devour my soul?

This isn't an argument for locking the mages up in the Tower. It's an argument for learning more about possession and the process used by demons to overcome someone's innate defenses. People's ignorance does not excuse them of abhorent behavior. (I realize that's likely just my personal beliefs though)

People in "middle ages" where ignorant. Today modern schools we are teached and our global communication systems allows knows fast what happens everywhere. In middle ages communication was alot harder and many people where not educated. So, they actually where ignorant.

Modifié par Lumikki, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:18 .

[Sir JK]

Mariskep, I think I was a bit unclear. I wasn't trying to excuse the the chantry, templars or common people. I was simply offering explanations why things are like they are. Sadly, what is right and what is wrong doesn't really matter practically (even if they should), but rather it is perceptions and reactions that do matter.
If people percieve mages as dangerous, scary and incomprehensible then they will act accordingly. It cannot be said it is untrue because it's what they perceive. Should it be dealt with and worked on? Yes. But if the mages solution is to rise... they will be proving many radicals right and things will rapidly become much much worse...

Also... I don't really understand your question regarding the Zathrian thing.

Also, I'd like to request the source you have for the magic thing. I'm curious because if it's true I have to rethink some things.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

Same thing applies to the chantry... a strong and influental divine will be able to control nations. A weak one will be the orlesian emperor's puppet (or someone else's) or irellevant.

Why exactly would I want the Chantry to control nations? If I was an elf, they destroyed my homeland. If I'm a mage, they have me on a leash and I can't determine my own life without running the risk of a templar murdering me for not being under their boot. If I worship another religion, they'll call an Exalted March and run my people to the ground and force their religion on me (like the Dales and the Imperial Chantry).

DMC12 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

...the Chantry of Andraste played a major role in the fall of the Dales and is seeking to force their religion throughout Thedas, leading Exalted Marches against people they view as unfaithful, they've forbidden the worship of the elven gods and treat the mages as little more than slaves, so I don't see why they shouldn't be dismantled.

When you put it like that, the Chantry gets **** done. From a moral, yeah it's bad, poor elves and whatever. But from a Machiavellian stand point, it helped develop the lands to be put to better use by their human conquerors. The strongest shall prevail.

Eventually someone or something stronger will take down the Chantry, but I think that's where the Qunari and Flemeth's army will come into play. Maybe.

I don't think anyone would dispute that the Chantry gets things done, but it's an issue of whether they should be stopped or supported. When it comes to stealing the land of other people or murdering mages, they certainly get things done. As for who will topple the Chantry, I don't see why an independent Circle of Magi from the Free Marches couldn't accomplish it (the Circles are everywhere throughout Thedas). I'd hope that DA2 doesn't pull an Oblivion and force us to aid an empire that doesn't deserve to be saved, but actually gives us a choice in what we accomplish as the Champion of Kirkwall, as in supporting the emancipation of the Circle of Magi and fighting the Chantry. The only reason that the Chantry even won the wars against the advanced technology of the Qunari is that they had mages on their side - why couldn't the Free Marches and an army of free mages defeat the Chantry?

[Lumikki]

MariSkep wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

1. Noone but mages neither do or can understand what magic really is. Not even the templars can truly understand how it works. To anyone but a mage, this makes it uncontrollable and more like a force of nature than the skills of a person. It scares them... a lot.

This actually isn't true. Anyone with proper will and supply of lyrium/blood can practice magic (from what I understand). And anyone is capable of understanding how magic interacts with the world and even help advance the theory behind the different schools as Dagna demonstrates. I know her work was largely about lyrium use but the same idea applies to any other field. You'd just need a mage to perform the actual experiments.

As I have understod, no-one can practice magic, unless they have born with gift of magic. You can drink "lyrium" and even become sick by it, but you can't do magic, if you don't have the gift. It's not something what can be learn. You can learn to use magic only if you have the gift of magic, you are born with it.

But Templars use lyrium to alter natural energies by will and they use magic (the glyphs warding their armor and walls) similar to the creation school of magic. Reavers flat out use blood magic to replenish their energy after a kill.

I don't know about these. In my opinion if you don't have the gift, you can't shape magic energy to be something else, because you miss the proper connection to it. That's what magic gift is. I ques someone could learn skill to feel the magic or resist it, even without ability shape it to anything. More like feel the magic power, but not able to shape it.

I let developers and writes to explain how it works. But so far I have understanded only mages can use magic.

Like I said, ignorance isn't an excuse. Not for acts of bigotry and the like.

Yes, but you can't ignore them, as saying they should not be ignorant when they are it anyway. Lack of knowledge and information, cause ignorance and if people can't learn, they stay ignorant even how smart they are. You need the information to understand. If no-one gives it, you stay as it is. That's middle ages, too many did not get educations and lack of long range communications.

Modifié par Lumikki, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why exactly would I want the Chantry to control nations? If I was an elf, they destroyed my homeland. If I'm a mage, they have me on a leash and I can't determine my own life without running the risk of a templar murdering me for not being under their boot. If I worship another religion, they'll call an Exalted March and run my people to the ground and force their religion on me (like the Dales and the Imperial Chantry).

Let me put it like this then...
You blame the current chantry (nevermind that anyone that was involved in that exalted march is long dead) for the exalted march and not stopping the orlesian occupation in Ferelden. But if the Divines in either situation were weak... they might have been controlled by someone else (specifically the emperors of a certain nation).

Besides... the exalted march was declared a full year after the onset of the war, when the elven army were close to besieging Val Royeaux (as you know, where the grand cathedral is and the divine resides). Then it took another ten years to defeat the elves. To me that is a indication that it's less a deliberate attempt to destroy the elven religion/culture and more the desperate attempts to save itself (not what they did afterwards is in any way justified...).
The Dalish themselves admit that they were probably not blameless in starting that war (and the chantry version says that the dalish were killing missionaries. Granted, we don't know the details behind that).

Modifié par Sir JK, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why exactly would I want the Chantry to control nations? If I was an elf, they destroyed my homeland. If I'm a mage, they have me on a leash and I can't determine my own life without running the risk of a templar murdering me for not being under their boot. If I worship another religion, they'll call an Exalted March and run my people to the ground and force their religion on me (like the Dales and the Imperial Chantry).

Let me put it like this then...
You blame the current chantry (nevermind that anyone that was involved in that exalted march is long dead) for the exalted march and not stopping the orlesian occupation in Ferelden. But if the Divines in either situation were weak... they might have been controlled by someone else (specifically the emperors of a certain nation).

The Ferelden occupation ended 30 years ago (DA:O) and the Divine has no issue telling the Ferelden ruler 'no' when it comes to the Magi boon to emancipate the Circle of Magi in Ferelden. The Chantry has been responsible for the deaths of mages for over 700 years (the length of time that the Rites have been used). So yes, I think that the Chantry should be called out for what it's done in the past (like the Dales) and in the present (against the mages).

Sir JK wrote...

Besides... the exalted march was declared a full year after the onset of the war, when the elven army were close to besieging Val Royeaux (as you know, where the grand cathedral is and the divine resides). Then it took another ten years to defeat the elves. To me that is a indication that it's less a deliberate attempt to destroy the elven religion/culture and more the desperate attempts to save itself (not what they did afterwards is in any way justified...).

And they used their victory to forbid the worship of the elven gods. It's the same reason they attacked Tevinter - not because of slavery, but because they decided to worship Andraste as a mortal instead of a divine Bride of the Maker.

Sir JK wrote...

The Dalish themselves admit that they were probably not blameless in starting that war (and the chantry version says that the dalish were killing missionaries. Granted, we don't know the details behind that).

The Dalish never said they were responsible, the Orlesians claim that. The Dalish said they never thought the humans would betray the gift of Andraste's children to Shartan's people - the Dales. And human missionaries that were sent to the Dales prove that the Chantry was trying to force their religion onto the Dalish elves.

[Korva]

I'll help them. I roleplay characters who are defined by the world they live in, not self-inserts with modern sensibilities or a rebellious-teenager urge to be "cool" by spitting on authority. Since Hawke is human and in my case will likely be a warrior, I see no reason why she shouldn't be on good terms with the representatives of her own faith.



That is, unless Bioware takes the cheap way out and goes all black-and-white-the-Chantry-is-so-evil on us to pander to said rebellious teenagers. *shrug*

[RazorrX]

Well remember that Hawkes sister is an apostate and by definition Malificar to the chantry and deserving of death . . .