1503 réponses à ce sujet

[ErichHartmann]

RazorrX wrote...

Well remember that Hawkes sister is an apostate and by definition Malificar to the chantry and deserving of death . . .

That's true for fanatics who believe everything they are told without question.     

[RazorrX]

ErichHartmann wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Well remember that Hawkes sister is an apostate and by definition Malificar to the chantry and deserving of death . . .

That's true for fanatics who believe everything they are told without question.     

Actually, it is the most basic precept of the chant of light.  That is why there are mage circles, templars, etc.  It is the official stand of the Chantry, if you are a mage and do not go to the tower you have spit on the maker and are deserving death.

I declair you an apostate by proxy!  Burrrn the Witch!

[DMC12]

MariSkep wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

When you put it like that, the Chantry gets **** done. From a moral, yeah it's bad, poor elves and whatever. But from a Machiavellian stand point, it helped develop the lands to be put to better use by their human conquerors. The strongest shall prevail.

So out lawing the only means by which to develop good medical treatment and ostracizing a power that could potentially end famines and draughts if used right is advancing the civilization? Right. Gotcha.

Not my point. Besides, medical treatment in DA is vastly different than medical treatment or agricultural practices of our world. There's no magic or magical potions to mend bones flesh instantaneously. You're putting up a straw man argument. My point was that the Chantry's holy wars lead to the Dales being conquered, leading to the creation of parts of Ferelden and Orlais, Orlais being a very advanced empire and cultural center.

But if you're going to talk about medicine and agriculture, then I guess I'll bite. As I said in my previous paragraph, magic, not drugs, is used in most medical practices. Also, I previously brought up the issue of the Urn of Sacred Ashes and the Guardian (I don't know how many pages back) as points for some divine source. I think my examples were successfully refuted in a way that I no longer consider them as valid examples of a reason for the existence of the Maker. But that's besides the point, the point is that they were refuted due to our beloved Oghren, in that lyrium is most likely the cause of the Guardian's immortality and the power of the ashes. So if lyrium were indeed the reason behind those seemingly miraculous occurrences, then there would be no need develop "modern" medical practices, but rather study lyrium. To study lyrium, you need to go through the Dwarves, as they are even strict when it comes to dealing with the Chantry.

As for developing agriculture and preventing draughts and how there's an issue behind it? I honestly don't remember this as being an issue anywhere in the game or the codexes. If it's that much of an issue, then I don't see it as a Chantry one, but rather a government problem. If the King can call upon the mages to serve in combat when the fate of the land is at stake from war, then I don't see how he can't call upon them to save the land from being ruined economically, as they are still in the agricultural revolution stages. Maybe send a few Templars so that the mage doesn't start a hurricane or something. Then again, the Templars also can't stop a mage from cutting his wrists (Magi origin) so that's another problem entirely.

Speaking of hurricanes, it just monsooned here for a few minutes and cut the power briefly. Speak of the devil, eh?

[Herr Uhl]

ErichHartmann wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Well remember that Hawkes sister is an apostate and by definition Malificar to the chantry and deserving of death . . .

That's true for fanatics who believe everything they are told without question.

Not even for them. Apostate is not the same as Maleficar.

Apostate = Non-circle
Maleficar = Blood mage

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Well remember that Hawkes sister is an apostate and by definition Malificar to the chantry and deserving of death . . .

That's true for fanatics who believe everything they are told without question.

Not even for them. Apostate is not the same as Maleficar.

Apostate = Non-circle
Maleficar = Blood mage

Not necesarily. A maleficar is anyone who doesn't practice magic according to the dictates of the Chantry. Much more literally going off the Chant itself it's anyone who uses magic against others.

But the chantry doesn't invoke laws that way anymore. The chantry to me is the chantry that exists now, not the chant. And my definition is the one used by templars and other chantry personnel, so I say that it is valid.

Sure, there are other kinds of magic than blood magic that'll brand you as maleficar, but simply not being outside the circle doesn't.

[LobselVith8]

DMC12 wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

When you put it like that, the Chantry gets **** done. From a moral, yeah it's bad, poor elves and whatever. But from a Machiavellian stand point, it helped develop the lands to be put to better use by their human conquerors. The strongest shall prevail.

So out lawing the only means by which to develop good medical treatment and ostracizing a power that could potentially end famines and draughts if used right is advancing the civilization? Right. Gotcha.

Not my point. Besides, medical treatment in DA is vastly different than medical treatment or agricultural practices of our world. There's no magic or magical potions to mend bones flesh instantaneously. You're putting up a straw man argument. My point was that the Chantry's holy wars lead to the Dales being conquered, leading to the creation of parts of Ferelden and Orlais, Orlais being a very advanced empire and cultural center.

Actually, the Dales is seperated from Ferelden by the Frostback Mountains, Orlais is seperated from it by the Waking Sea, and it's likely the conquest of the Dales made it possible for Orlais to take over Ferelden. So the Exalted March on the Dales technically lead to murder and rape by the chevaliers in Ferelden.

You can see the map here.

DMC12 wrote...

But if you're going to talk about medicine and agriculture, then I guess I'll bite. As I said in my previous paragraph, magic, not drugs, is used in most medical practices. Also, I previously brought up the issue of the Urn of Sacred Ashes and the Guardian (I don't know how many pages back) as points for some divine source. I think my examples were successfully refuted in a way that I no longer consider them as valid examples of a reason for the existence of the Maker. But that's besides the point, the point is that they were refuted due to our beloved Oghren, in that lyrium is most likely the cause of the Guardian's immortality and the power of the ashes. So if lyrium were indeed the reason behind those seemingly miraculous occurrences, then there would be no need develop "modern" medical practices, but rather study lyrium. To study lyrium, you need to go through the Dwarves, as they are even strict when it comes to dealing with the Chantry.

Dagna proves to bring new information about lyrium to light if she becomes a member of the Chantry, and it's the reason so many mages go to Orzammar to create their own Circle, outside of Chantry oversight. Obviously, the people of Thedas don't know everything about lyrium, since Dagna explains that she can teach the Circle more about it as a dwarf.

DMC12 wrote...

As for developing agriculture and preventing draughts and how there's an issue behind it? I honestly don't remember this as being an issue anywhere in the game or the codexes. If it's that much of an issue, then I don't see it as a Chantry one, but rather a government problem. If the King can call upon the mages to serve in combat when the fate of the land is at stake from war, then I don't see how he can't call upon them to save the land from being ruined economically, as they are still in the agricultural revolution stages. Maybe send a few Templars so that the mage doesn't start a hurricane or something. Then again, the Templars also can't stop a mage from cutting his wrists (Magi origin) so that's another problem entirely.

Except the Chantry won't relinquish its control over the Circles, and therefore the mages of the Circles. It's either submission or war.

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

But the chantry doesn't invoke laws that way anymore. The chantry to me is the chantry that exists now, not the chant. And my definition is the one used by templars and other chantry personnel, so I say that it is valid.

Sure, there are other kinds of magic than blood magic that'll brand you as maleficar, but simply not being outside the circle doesn't.

Not disagreeing with you but in the minds of people they are synonymous as how they are so frequently used interchangebly shows.

The first quote referred to how she would be seen by "the chantry". Which wouldn't be two dudes talking crap to each other in a town square.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

[ErichHartmann]

My final say on the matter:



I see myself (Hawke) as a heretical reformer willing to fight the Templars, help Apostates, and serve the Chantry as I see fit. An all or nothing stance against them is too catastrophic in my mind. This is how I hope to roleplay in DA2.

[LobselVith8]

MariSkep wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, the Dales is seperated from Ferelden by the Frostback Mountains, Orlais is seperated from it by the Waking Sea, and it's likely the conquest of the Dales made it possible for Orlais to take over Ferelden. So the Exalted March on the Dales technically lead to murder and rape by the chevaliers in Ferelden.

You can see the map here.

While the Chantry certainly did nothing to stop what was happening in Fereldan and it has always favored Orlais, it wouldn't be fair to say their war with the Dales led to the Chevaliers crimes during the occupation. The business with the Dales was another issue altogether and their xenophobic and genocidal policies is damnable enough without trying to tie it to what happened in Fereldan.

Given the proximity between the Dales and Ferelden, seperated only by the Frostback Mountains, it's possible that the territory of the Dales was used by the Orlesians to commander control of Ferelden, since Ferelden is beneath the Free Marches and Orlais is some distance away. If that's the case, then defeating the Dales means that the conquest of Ferelden was now possible, because instead of being distant lands they were now neighboring nations.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

No, it wasn't. We don't know who started the war, but we can speculate. And who said the Dalish started the war? Orlais? Well, it's not like it's characteristic of them to take over other nations... 

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

No, it wasn't. We don't know who started the war, but we can speculate. And who said the Dalish started the war? Orlais? Well, it's not like it's characteristic of them to take over other nations... 

And it is a religious institution that 90% of the users search for reasons to hate. OF COURSE it was their fault. I bet they baited the Qunari too.

[Everwarden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Like permission to leave the tower (only once they've completed their Harrowing though). Though keeping their own children is still an absolute no-go, its simply too dangerous.

Too dangerous? Something you've asserted several times without providing any evidence or an argument to support the statement.

As to your admission to trolling... well, maybe this should be my last reply. It's a good policy not to feed trolls. 

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

No, it wasn't. We don't know who started the war, but we can speculate. And who said the Dalish started the war? Orlais? Well, it's not like it's characteristic of them to take over other nations... 

And it is a religious institution that 90% of the users search for reasons to hate. OF COURSE it was their fault. I bet they baited the Qunari too.

Wait, I'm lost. Who're we talking about right now, Orlais or the Chantry?

And save the high minded crap for someone who cares. I'm not looking for reasons to hate anyone in the game. I just do because of the way they act. And I seriously doubt it's 90%. Take a look around the boards.

I just get flashbacks to the early Loghain-threads. Where he repudetly lured the darkspawn, co-ordinated with Howe to kill all the Couslands and planned on retreating all along.

You see a lot more than there is if you search for it, let's just say that. People like to have a bad guy, someone to blame.

[LobselVith8]

MariSkep wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, the Dales is seperated from Ferelden by the Frostback Mountains, Orlais is seperated from it by the Waking Sea, and it's likely the conquest of the Dales made it possible for Orlais to take over Ferelden. So the Exalted March on the Dales technically lead to murder and rape by the chevaliers in Ferelden.

You can see the map here.

While the Chantry certainly did nothing to stop what was happening in Fereldan and it has always favored Orlais, it wouldn't be fair to say their war with the Dales led to the Chevaliers crimes during the occupation. The business with the Dales was another issue altogether and their xenophobic and genocidal policies is damnable enough without trying to tie it to what happened in Fereldan.

Given the proximity between the Dales and Ferelden, seperated only by the Frostback Mountains, it's possible that the territory of the Dales was used by the Orlesians to commander control of Ferelden, since Ferelden is beneath the Free Marches and Orlais is some distance away. If that's the case, then defeating the Dales means that the conquest of Ferelden was now possible, because instead of being distant lands they were now neighboring nations.

But that was between Orlais and the Dales. That the territory they aquired made conquering Ferelden all that much easier is irrelevant. It's like saying gaining this knowledge of refining steel and making it stronger lead to the crimes committed against peasants and the like.

 

I think it's a slightly different issue when acquiring the Dales allowed the Orlesians two fronts to attack Ferelden - by land and by Waking Sea. Had the Dales not been conquered, it's possible that Ferelden might not have been occupied. Given the limited information we have, I suppose all we can do is speculate.

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

No, it wasn't. We don't know who started the war, but we can speculate. And who said the Dalish started the war? Orlais? Well, it's not like it's characteristic of them to take over other nations... 

And it is a religious institution that 90% of the users search for reasons to hate. OF COURSE it was their fault. I bet they baited the Qunari too.

Yeah, I'm certain it has nothing to do with promoting a nation that had soldiers raping and murdering people in Ferelden or their abhorrent treatment of mages...

[Korva]

MariSkep wrote...

Yes because only rebellious teenagers take issue with an over bearing authroity figure. *looks over at recent Teabaggers get together he had to sit through*

Point. But one thing I noticed in various fandoms is that any "authority" the player/protagonist interacts with will automatically be used for "cool rebel" wish fulfillment by many, many people, unless it bends over to kiss our arse at every turn. Doesn't matter what the authority is, or what it does, though being religious or spiritual in nature always seems to be good for drawing extra hate. It just gets really tiresome, even when I have no particular positive feelings for the group in question. I'd be far more interested in a game/story that actually explores what makes a featured organization tick and lets the player work closely with/for it. Sadly Bioware has a pretty bad track record there, and since Hawke isn't even part of the Chantry I don't think that will change in DA2.

There are reasons to dislike the Chantry, definitely. Doesn't mean they don't have some good points, too, or that it would not be really annoying to see them painted as villains.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

Sorry but that's just stupid. You either have to admit this whole war from the start was about religion (and therefore the Orlesian's who instigated it by not only sending regular missionaries into a nation that basically told them to gtfo and not knowing how to handle territorial disputes diplomatically) or about two nations going to war (in which case the Chantry had zero business getting involved.) Either way calling Orlais heroes for genocide and rampant xenophobia makes you look like a tool.

And please, no nation is obligated to help you defend yourself in a Blight. Did you see Kirkwall or Antiva lining up outside Fereldan begging for a crack at the darkspawn?

It was at first "just" a war between nations. However the Dalish went after Val Royaux, the seat of the Chantry. A bad move, as that was bound to ****** off every single Andrastian in Thedas. The Dalish brought the Exalted March on themselves. Period. And how quick you are to throw the terms like xenophobia and genocide at the Orlesians. Do you really think the Dalish would have been any kinder had they succeeded? Cause then you are just naïve. And the whole goddamn war was started as a reaction to the Elves xenophobia of Humans. And who called the Orlesians heroes? I only said they were justified. Justified does not equal hero, in my mind at least

It is in EVERYONE'S best interest to end a Blight as soon as possible. What the Dalish did was just a retarded xenophobic move from their government. No we did not see Kirkwall or Antiva offer support because the Blight had barely begun before it ended. Blights are usually year long struggles for survival. How long did this Blight last? A few months? A little less than a year? By the end of the day it was over before outside help had become relevant. The Orlisians was quick to offer assistance though, granted it was probably with some hidden agenda or another.

[LobselVith8]

Korva wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Yes because only rebellious teenagers take issue with an over bearing authroity figure. *looks over at recent Teabaggers get together he had to sit through*

Point. But one thing I noticed in various fandoms is that any "authority" the player/protagonist interacts with will automatically be used for "cool rebel" wish fulfillment by many, many people, unless it bends over to kiss our arse at every turn. Doesn't matter what the authority is, or what it does, though being religious or spiritual in nature always seems to be good for drawing extra hate. It just gets really tiresome, even when I have no particular positive feelings for the group in question. I'd be far more interested in a game/story that actually explores what makes a featured organization tick and lets the player work closely with/for it. Sadly Bioware has a pretty bad track record there, and since Hawke isn't even part of the Chantry I don't think that will change in DA2.

There are reasons to dislike the Chantry, definitely. Doesn't mean they don't have some good points, too, or that it would not be really annoying to see them painted as villains.

With the exception of Arl Howe and Bann Vaughan, I don't think DA:O had any black hat villains. Loghain is a very complex character, and no one stops debating whether he should be viewed as a hero or a villain. There were even templars who didn't take issue with the Warden being a mage. I doubt that any conflict between the Chantry and the mages will involve any sort of white/black hat scenerio.