1503 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Everwarden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Like permission to leave the tower (only once they've completed their Harrowing though). Though keeping their own children is still an absolute no-go, its simply too dangerous.

Too dangerous? Something you've asserted several times without providing any evidence or an argument to support the statement.

As to your admission to trolling... well, maybe this should be my last reply. It's a good policy not to feed trolls. 

I have given you enough reasons and evidence for my stance on the matter. That you choose to disregard or call it inadequate is not really my problem.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...



The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

Sorry but that's just stupid. You either have to admit this whole war from the start was about religion (and therefore the Orlesian's who instigated it by not only sending regular missionaries into a nation that basically told them to gtfo and not knowing how to handle territorial disputes diplomatically) or about two nations going to war (in which case the Chantry had zero business getting involved.) Either way calling Orlais heroes for genocide and rampant xenophobia makes you look like a tool.



And please, no nation is obligated to help you defend yourself in a Blight. Did you see Kirkwall or Antiva lining up outside Fereldan begging for a crack at the darkspawn?

It was at first "just" a war between nations. However the Dalish went after Val Royaux, the seat of the Chantry. A bad move, as that was bound to ****** off every single Andrastian in Thedas. The Dalish brought the Exalted March on themselves. Period. And how quick you are to throw the terms like xenophobia and genocide at the Orlesians. Do you really think the Dalish would have been any kinder had they succeeded? Cause then you are just naïve. And the whole goddamn war was started as a reaction to the Elves xenophobia of Humans. And who called the Orlesians heroes? I only said they were justified. Justified does not equal hero, in my mind at least



It is in EVERYONE'S best interest to end a Blight as soon as possible. What the Dalish did was just a retarded xenophobic move from their government. No we did not see Kirkwall or Antiva offer support because the Blight had barely begun before it ended. Blights are usually year long struggles for survival. How long did this Blight last? A few months? A little less than a year? By the end of the day it was over before outside help had become relevant. The Orlisians was quick to offer assistance though, granted it was probably with some hidden agenda or another.

You mean the elves dared attack a city in Orlais, when they were fighting a war with Orlais? How shocking...



The elves didn't participate because they wanted to reclaim their ancient traditions and their immortality, which they believe was lost when they came in contact with humans. Given the territorial disputes with Orlais and the Chantry trying to convert the elves to their religion, why are the elves going to go out of their way to rescue a nation that is hostile to them, that disrespects their traditions? The elves were formerly slaves to the humans, and all they're doing is trying to build a nation for themselves where they can reclaim their history. And I see no reason to see the Orlesians being justified, they seem to make a habit of over other nations.

[Mykel54]

I think i would end up supporting the templars, or the chantry by definition. If i were a peasant in the DAO world i would rightly fear magic and what happens when some daemon gets inside those mages. My dwarf warden in origins had not much fear of mages, but even then he only trusted those like wynne that were responsible and followed the norms of the circle. If you let every mage do his own thing freely, it would degenerate into blood magic very quickly.



Many apostates end up resorting to blood magic to survive, to be more powerful, that is why many just assume that apostate=maleficar, even if it is not always true. In the case of Jowan he was a blood mage, and he didn´t had evil intentions. So you never know.



I like how templars are capable of dispelling evil magics, and they are incredibly useful agaisnt casters like darkspawn emissaries or maleficar, like those slavers tevinter mages that cast blood magic on the alienage elves, or even daemons that appear where the veil is frail. I think the best of both worlds is to have templars to protect the people from irresponsible mages, and mages that are well trained and controled so they are not easily possesed or dabble in blood magic.

[DMC12]

MariSkep wrote...
And my point is the Chantry took any means of developing medical
treatment for the poor and hurled it out the window placing medicine
and healing at the feet of only the affluent members of society.
They've also taken their most effective weapon against the well armored
and technologically superior Qunari and locked them up in a prettied up
prison.

The issue of distributing the lyrium ultimately comes down to the Dwarves though. They mine and refine it, then distribute it to the Chantry. So obviously there's going to be a supply issue, thus it's going to be more expensive.

As for imprisoning the mages, well it's kind of necessary. It's not as bad as the Qunari though, who mutilate and chain their mages. The mages are treated civilly, but they're also treated as being something other than human. They're more than human and they have certain powers that can be misused. They have the ability of mind control, causing destructive events, can be possessed, all along with the ability to heal and cure. So they're a wild card, and in order to keep them from going rampant, they need to be controlled to a degree, since they are potentially a grave threat to the general populace and have been.

But tell me, why do you think drugs wouldn't be effective or why do you
think studying anatomy and corpses wouldn't provide any benefit to
medical knowledge?

It's a matter of practicality and efficiency. If lyrium can be used as a "miracle drug" that can revive people from comas, cure diseases, and heal flesh and bones almost instantaneously, then there's no real practical reason to develop immunizations or other drugs. It's almost like a short cut. Like in Mass Effect: they discovered element zero and then the relays. Both were a short cut to space travel so that the humans wouldn't need to develop those technologies "naturally". It's like a step back to me.

was more a point against how the Chantry perpetuates and does nothing at stopping the irrational hate and fear towards magic.

That's a good point then and something else we have common ground on. My stance on the Chantry is that it is a necessary institution (maybe even a necessary evil), which needs and should be reformed. However completely dissolving it would lead to total anarchy, especially if it were immediate.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

Sorry but that's just stupid. You either have to admit this whole war from the start was about religion (and therefore the Orlesian's who instigated it by not only sending regular missionaries into a nation that basically told them to gtfo and not knowing how to handle territorial disputes diplomatically) or about two nations going to war (in which case the Chantry had zero business getting involved.) Either way calling Orlais heroes for genocide and rampant xenophobia makes you look like a tool.

And please, no nation is obligated to help you defend yourself in a Blight. Did you see Kirkwall or Antiva lining up outside Fereldan begging for a crack at the darkspawn?

It was at first "just" a war between nations. However the Dalish went after Val Royaux, the seat of the Chantry. A bad move, as that was bound to ****** off every single Andrastian in Thedas. The Dalish brought the Exalted March on themselves. Period. And how quick you are to throw the terms like xenophobia and genocide at the Orlesians. Do you really think the Dalish would have been any kinder had they succeeded? Cause then you are just naïve. And the whole goddamn war was started as a reaction to the Elves xenophobia of Humans. And who called the Orlesians heroes? I only said they were justified. Justified does not equal hero, in my mind at least

It is in EVERYONE'S best interest to end a Blight as soon as possible. What the Dalish did was just a retarded xenophobic move from their government. No we did not see Kirkwall or Antiva offer support because the Blight had barely begun before it ended. Blights are usually year long struggles for survival. How long did this Blight last? A few months? A little less than a year? By the end of the day it was over before outside help had become relevant. The Orlisians was quick to offer assistance though, granted it was probably with some hidden agenda or another.

You mean the elves dared attack a city in Orlais, when they were fighting a war with Orlais? How shocking...

The elves didn't participate because they wanted to reclaim their ancient traditions and their immortality, which they believe was lost when they came in contact with humans. Given the territorial disputes with Orlais and the Chantry trying to convert the elves to their religion, why are the elves going to go out of their way to rescue a nation that is hostile to them, that disrespects their traditions? The elves were formerly slaves to the humans, and all they're doing is trying to build a nation for themselves where they can reclaim their history. And I see no reason to see the Orlesians being justified, they seem to make a habit of over other nations.

It was shockingly stupid of them to attack Val Royaux that's for damn sure. It just shows that the Elves lack any kind of a brain to think they can attack the capital of not only Orlais but of Andrastian faith itself and not expect a reprisal from the rest of the world.

So far for all we know their "immortality" is just propaganda to spread more hate towards humans. No elf has ever been immortal in anything but legend. Fine they want to rebuild their culture. But by ignoring a Blight they might not have much future to look forward to. Another shockingly stupid move from the Elves.

[LobselVith8]

Mykel54 wrote...

I think i would end up supporting the templars, or the chantry by definition. If i were a peasant in the DAO world i would rightly fear magic and what happens when some daemon gets inside those mages. My dwarf warden in origins had not much fear of mages, but even then he only trusted those like wynne that were responsible and followed the norms of the circle. If you let every mage do his own thing freely, it would degenerate into blood magic very quickly.

Many apostates end up resorting to blood magic to survive, to be more powerful, that is why many just assume that apostate=maleficar, even if it is not always true. In the case of Jowan he was a blood mage, and he didn´t had evil intentions. So you never know.

I like how templars are capable of dispelling evil magics, and they are incredibly useful agaisnt casters like darkspawn emissaries or maleficar, like those slavers tevinter mages that cast blood magic on the alienage elves, or even daemons that appear where the veil is frail. I think the best of both worlds is to have templars to protect the people from irresponsible mages, and mages that are well trained and controled so they are not easily possesed or dabble in blood magic.

Since Hawke's sister is a mage in DA2 (possibly an apostate), do you think that would impact your decisions and perceptions as a character?

DMC12 wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

And my point is the Chantry took any means of developing medical
treatment for the poor and hurled it out the window placing medicine
and healing at the feet of only the affluent members of society.
They've also taken their most effective weapon against the well armored
and technologically superior Qunari and locked them up in a prettied up
prison.

The issue of distributing the lyrium ultimately comes down to the Dwarves though. They mine and refine it, then distribute it to the Chantry. So obviously there's going to be a supply issue, thus it's going to be more expensive.

As for imprisoning the mages, well it's kind of necessary. It's not as bad as the Qunari though, who mutilate and chain their mages. The mages are treated civilly, but they're also treated as being something other than human. They're more than human and they have certain powers that can be misused. They have the ability of mind control, causing destructive events, can be possessed, all along with the ability to heal and cure. So they're a wild card, and in order to keep them from going rampant, they need to be controlled to a degree, since they are potentially a grave threat to the general populace and have been.

Doesn't that merely create the opportunity for an Toussaint L'Ouverture type mage who rises up against his oppressors to free his people? People have historically fought for their freedom, I don't see any reason that mages would be any different.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Exalted March on the Dales was fully justfied. The Dalish threatened the very capital of Andrastian faith, of course that will result in a total war from the Andrastians. The Dalish are acting all butt hurt now about a fictional slight commited them centuries ago. They Dalish should have thought about what would happen if they lost the war BEFORE they raided borderland villages, BEFORE they killed missionaries and BEFORE they refused to help humanity during the Second Blight. If there is one thing I hate more than a butthurt mage, it is a butthurt elf.....

Sorry but that's just stupid. You either have to admit this whole war from the start was about religion (and therefore the Orlesian's who instigated it by not only sending regular missionaries into a nation that basically told them to gtfo and not knowing how to handle territorial disputes diplomatically) or about two nations going to war (in which case the Chantry had zero business getting involved.) Either way calling Orlais heroes for genocide and rampant xenophobia makes you look like a tool.

And please, no nation is obligated to help you defend yourself in a Blight. Did you see Kirkwall or Antiva lining up outside Fereldan begging for a crack at the darkspawn?

It was at first "just" a war between nations. However the Dalish went after Val Royaux, the seat of the Chantry. A bad move, as that was bound to ****** off every single Andrastian in Thedas. The Dalish brought the Exalted March on themselves. Period. And how quick you are to throw the terms like xenophobia and genocide at the Orlesians. Do you really think the Dalish would have been any kinder had they succeeded? Cause then you are just naïve. And the whole goddamn war was started as a reaction to the Elves xenophobia of Humans. And who called the Orlesians heroes? I only said they were justified. Justified does not equal hero, in my mind at least

It is in EVERYONE'S best interest to end a Blight as soon as possible. What the Dalish did was just a retarded xenophobic move from their government. No we did not see Kirkwall or Antiva offer support because the Blight had barely begun before it ended. Blights are usually year long struggles for survival. How long did this Blight last? A few months? A little less than a year? By the end of the day it was over before outside help had become relevant. The Orlisians was quick to offer assistance though, granted it was probably with some hidden agenda or another.

You mean the elves dared attack a city in Orlais, when they were fighting a war with Orlais? How shocking...

The elves didn't participate because they wanted to reclaim their ancient traditions and their immortality, which they believe was lost when they came in contact with humans. Given the territorial disputes with Orlais and the Chantry trying to convert the elves to their religion, why are the elves going to go out of their way to rescue a nation that is hostile to them, that disrespects their traditions? The elves were formerly slaves to the humans, and all they're doing is trying to build a nation for themselves where they can reclaim their history. And I see no reason to see the Orlesians being justified, they seem to make a habit of over other nations.

It was shockingly stupid of them to attack Val Royaux that's for damn sure. It just shows that the Elves lack any kind of a brain to think they can attack the capital of not only Orlais but of Andrastian faith itself and not expect a reprisal from the rest of the world.

So far for all we know their "immortality" is just propaganda to spread more hate towards humans. No elf has ever been immortal in anything but legend. Fine they want to rebuild their culture. But by ignoring a Blight they might not have much future to look forward to. Another shockingly stupid move from the Elves.

Who said they didn't expect a reprisal? I don't see how defending themselves against an invading force is stupid. It was either submission or death.

And for all we know it's the truth. And given that humans enslaved them and destroyed their original homeland, why would they need propoganda? They were given a homeland, then territorial disputes transpired and people came in to force them to convert to a human religion. Furthermore, the elves may not have participated because they concerned themselves with being too weak to stop an invading force, especially if the Chantry converts were coming to the Dales prior to the Second Blight. And no other nation aids Ferelden in stopping the Blight, since Orlais is waiting for the darkspawn to come to their border.

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It was shockingly stupid of them to attack Val Royaux that's for damn sure.

...

yeah sure, whatever. Why should they attack a city that could very well win them the war?

*points at exhalted march*

It is called biting off more than you can chew.

Edit:

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So far for all we know their "immortality" is just propaganda to spread more hate towards humans.

Propaganda spread by Tevinter? What?

Where did you see Tevinter in there?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

What the good Herr Uhl said.

[DMC12]

MariSkep wrote...

DMC12 wrote...

The issue of distributing the lyrium ultimately comes down to the Dwarves though. They mine and refine it, then distribute it to the Chantry. So obviously there's going to be a supply issue, thus it's going to be more expensive.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was referring to the Chantry's ban on anatomical research not their monopoly on Lyrium distribution.

No, my bad, I missinterpreted your quote. But given that, then I'd say that's another reformation that should be implemented. Now that's one other thing I don't understand about the DA world, since the Chantry is DA's equivalent to Catholicism. The Catholics, specifically the Jesuits lead the way in a lot of teachings and research of the human body, and their works continue today with universities like Loyola, which is a great medical school. I forgot whether that was before or after the counter-reformation though. So yeah, I agree with you, I don't see why they shouldn't study the body. I thought you meant developing like modern drugs, but they could study the effects of lyrium on the body or something. Maybe keep mages out of it though and just have regular scholars do the work if they're that concerned over a blood mage insurgent.

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It was shockingly stupid of them to attack Val Royaux that's for damn sure.

...

yeah sure, whatever. Why should they attack a city that could very well win them the war?

*points at exhalted march*

It is called biting off more than you can chew.

They were deep into Orlesian territory and obviously hadn't recieved a surrender. Where they supposed to turn around and go home?

Yes. Or not go there at all.

Edit:

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So far for all we know their "immortality" is just propaganda to spread more hate towards humans.

Propaganda spread by Tevinter? What?

Where did you see Tevinter in there?

Didn't Tevinter also make note of the elves magic and 'immortality?'

No.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:37 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It was shockingly stupid of them to attack Val Royaux that's for damn sure.

...

yeah sure, whatever. Why should they attack a city that could very well win them the war?

*points at exhalted march*

It is called biting off more than you can chew.

They were deep into Orlesian territory and obviously hadn't recieved a surrender. Were they supposed to turn around and go home? 

Wait don't answer that. I'm afraid to hear what the 'Dalish deserved everything that happened to them' crowd would say.

They should have tought about what they had gained before htey went against Val Royaux. Before they did that they had taken a large chunk of Orlesian territory and could probably have held it for many years given that the Orlesian had been unable to prevent them from taking it in the first place. By going against Val Royaux they united every other Andrastian nation against them. So yes, they should ahve called it a day when tehy had the chance.

MariSkep wrote...

Edit:

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So far for all we know their "immortality" is just propaganda to spread more hate towards humans.

Propaganda spread by Tevinter? What?

Where did you see Tevinter in there?

Didn't Tevinter also make note of the elves magic and 'immortality?'

I don't recall the Tevinter mentioning the immortality of the Arlathan Elves. They could have though. Worthy of some research.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

They were deep into Orlesian territory and obviously hadn't recieved a surrender. Where they supposed to turn around and go home?

Yes. Or not go there at all.

You mean the Dalish should have allowed themselves to be killed by the Orlesians? That doesn't make any sense.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It was shockingly stupid of them to attack Val Royaux that's for damn sure.

...

yeah sure, whatever. Why should they attack a city that could very well win them the war?

*points at exhalted march*

It is called biting off more than you can chew.

They were deep into Orlesian territory and obviously hadn't recieved a surrender. Were they supposed to turn around and go home? 

Wait don't answer that. I'm afraid to hear what the 'Dalish deserved everything that happened to them' crowd would say.

They should have tought about what they had gained before htey went against Val Royaux. Before they did that they had taken a large chunk of Orlesian territory and could probably have held it for many years given that the Orlesian had been unable to prevent them from taking it in the first place. By going against Val Royaux they united every other Andrastian nation against them. So yes, they should ahve called it a day when tehy had the chance.

That might have been possible if Orlais surrendered, not if they're actively engaging against Dalish elves and the elves need to win the war to secure the safety of their people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

What the Dalish did was a tactical disaster. Not only did it lose them the war and nation, they could have avoided both completely by just wearing the Orlesians out in a war of attrition. The Dalish had the upper hand and they threw it away. But the Dalish lost themselves on tehir own crusade of genocide against the Orlesians... Too bad the Orlesians got a chacne to return the favor eh? But I guess that when it is a human who commits the genocide its wrong while for the elves its fully justified?

[DMC12]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Doesn't that merely create the opportunity for an Toussaint L'Ouverture type mage who rises up against his oppressors to free his people? People have historically fought for their freedom, I don't see any reason that mages would be any different.

While L'Ouverture is a fascinating person, who not only drove out Napoleon, but lead to him selling the Louisiana territory over to the Americans, and thus preventing him from later invading the U.S. if his army succeeded in Europe... he's not the best example. Haiti's not a nice place. It's not a powerful or influencial place, and most of the world rightly sees it as having a horrible government.

But the problem of that situation versus the mage situation is also the types of people involved. The case of the Haitians and the French was one of master and servant, while the case of the Chantry and the mages is one of watcher and the abnormal.

To explain it from my point of view more clearly, I'll use a real world example. It's a touchy subject, but I feel it works. The case of the mages and the chantry, I think, is best represented by insane asylums and the mentally ill. Statistically, the mentally ill are more dangerous than the general populace, with conditions like schizophrenia and sociopathy. They're still human and should be treated with respect, but they can't function in society like a normal person can because there's something abnormal about them. In the case of the mages, there's something abnormal about them as well that they can't function in society like the average person can. It's not a mental problem, but it can be a problem nonetheless, so they have to be separated. There should be reform though, but I don't think the mages can just be "set free".

Modifié par DMC12, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:58 .

[thegreateski]

Can we just agree that the Dalish were complete tools who deserved to have their arse beat and that the Humans went too far when they dismantled the Dalish nation?