1503 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

RazorrX wrote...

Again, I can understand how you want to defend the Templers and chantry any chance you get, but this has nothing to do with me attacking them. The official stand of the chantry is that if you are apostate you are also by default a maleficar.

The first doctrine of the Chantry is : Magic is a sin of pride. It was magic that lead to the Maker turning away from the world for the second time. Magic is a curse. Mages are manifesting sin against the maker by their very existence.
The maker decreed that Magic is to serve man, never to rule over him. This is one of the main dogmas of the Chantry. It was Emperor Drakon of Orlais who decided that magic need to be controlled, so he created the mage circle and the Templers to watch over it.
To the chantry to practice magic without being a member of a circle is a capital offense. Further it is a sign that you have spurned the Chantry and the Maker. The Chantry further believes that the ONLY reason for mages to NOT submit to the circle is because they wish to practice the forbidden magic - Blood Magic. Thus they are Maleficar. You can even see them being used interchangeably in game. Morrigan for example is referred to as an Apostate and a Maleficar over and over.
Here is one quote on that for you:
"Mages who refuse to join the circle - or who flee the circle after joining - are referred to as Apostates. It is assumed that a mage who does not wish to be part of the circle has rejected the teachings of the Chantry and renounced the Maker. To a lesser extent, it is assumed that the mage wishes to be free to practice blood magic."

Note also that the original chantry was VERY militaristic, and used force where persuasion would not work. "The Chantry is urged by its own dogma to proselytize - forcefully, if need be." and further "The teachings of Andraste had many followers prior to the Chantry's official creation, and in many places these teachings took on different forms - different interpretations on the role of magic and on exactly what were the crimes of mankind against the Maker and how (if at all) mankind could earn his forgiveness. These heresies had to be crushed if the Chant was to be one song. So, too, did the Chantry need to battle different faiths such as the remaining worship of the Old gods and the pagan beliefs of the elves."

What you are saying is simply not true. Saying they assume an apostate wishes to study blood magic or other forbidden arts is not the same as saying he will study blood magic. Anders alone is proof that not all apostates are considered maleficars. However as I now repeatedly have said, many apostates ARE maleficar, which is why the chantry assumes that all apostates wishes to study blood magic. However an apostate is clearly given a chance of showing his innocence. At least ideally, we have already covered the work of some over-zealous Templars.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Again, I can understand how you want to defend the Templers and chantry any chance you get, but this has nothing to do with me attacking them. The official stand of the chantry is that if you are apostate you are also by default a maleficar.

The first doctrine of the Chantry is : Magic is a sin of pride. It was magic that lead to the Maker turning away from the world for the second time. Magic is a curse. Mages are manifesting sin against the maker by their very existence.
The maker decreed that Magic is to serve man, never to rule over him. This is one of the main dogmas of the Chantry. It was Emperor Drakon of Orlais who decided that magic need to be controlled, so he created the mage circle and the Templers to watch over it.
To the chantry to practice magic without being a member of a circle is a capital offense. Further it is a sign that you have spurned the Chantry and the Maker. The Chantry further believes that the ONLY reason for mages to NOT submit to the circle is because they wish to practice the forbidden magic - Blood Magic. Thus they are Maleficar. You can even see them being used interchangeably in game. Morrigan for example is referred to as an Apostate and a Maleficar over and over.
Here is one quote on that for you:
"Mages who refuse to join the circle - or who flee the circle after joining - are referred to as Apostates. It is assumed that a mage who does not wish to be part of the circle has rejected the teachings of the Chantry and renounced the Maker. To a lesser extent, it is assumed that the mage wishes to be free to practice blood magic."

Note also that the original chantry was VERY militaristic, and used force where persuasion would not work. "The Chantry is urged by its own dogma to proselytize - forcefully, if need be." and further "The teachings of Andraste had many followers prior to the Chantry's official creation, and in many places these teachings took on different forms - different interpretations on the role of magic and on exactly what were the crimes of mankind against the Maker and how (if at all) mankind could earn his forgiveness. These heresies had to be crushed if the Chant was to be one song. So, too, did the Chantry need to battle different faiths such as the remaining worship of the Old gods and the pagan beliefs of the elves."

What you are saying is simply not true. Saying they assume an apostate wishes to study blood magic or other forbidden arts is not the same as saying he will study blood magic. Anders alone is proof that not all apostates are considered maleficars. However as I now repeatedly have said, many apostates ARE maleficar, which is why the chantry assumes that all apostates wishes to study blood magic. However an apostate is clearly given a chance of showing his innocence. At least ideally, we have already covered the work of some over-zealous Templars.

If the templars allowed an apostate to explain himself, then Wynne's apprentice Aneirin wouldn't have nearly been killed by the templars when he ran away from the Circle at fourteen years old.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Again, I can understand how you want to defend the Templers and chantry any chance you get, but this has nothing to do with me attacking them. The official stand of the chantry is that if you are apostate you are also by default a maleficar.

The first doctrine of the Chantry is : Magic is a sin of pride. It was magic that lead to the Maker turning away from the world for the second time. Magic is a curse. Mages are manifesting sin against the maker by their very existence.
The maker decreed that Magic is to serve man, never to rule over him. This is one of the main dogmas of the Chantry. It was Emperor Drakon of Orlais who decided that magic need to be controlled, so he created the mage circle and the Templers to watch over it.
To the chantry to practice magic without being a member of a circle is a capital offense. Further it is a sign that you have spurned the Chantry and the Maker. The Chantry further believes that the ONLY reason for mages to NOT submit to the circle is because they wish to practice the forbidden magic - Blood Magic. Thus they are Maleficar. You can even see them being used interchangeably in game. Morrigan for example is referred to as an Apostate and a Maleficar over and over.
Here is one quote on that for you:
"Mages who refuse to join the circle - or who flee the circle after joining - are referred to as Apostates. It is assumed that a mage who does not wish to be part of the circle has rejected the teachings of the Chantry and renounced the Maker. To a lesser extent, it is assumed that the mage wishes to be free to practice blood magic."

Note also that the original chantry was VERY militaristic, and used force where persuasion would not work. "The Chantry is urged by its own dogma to proselytize - forcefully, if need be." and further "The teachings of Andraste had many followers prior to the Chantry's official creation, and in many places these teachings took on different forms - different interpretations on the role of magic and on exactly what were the crimes of mankind against the Maker and how (if at all) mankind could earn his forgiveness. These heresies had to be crushed if the Chant was to be one song. So, too, did the Chantry need to battle different faiths such as the remaining worship of the Old gods and the pagan beliefs of the elves."

What you are saying is simply not true. Saying they assume an apostate wishes to study blood magic or other forbidden arts is not the same as saying he will study blood magic. Anders alone is proof that not all apostates are considered maleficars. However as I now repeatedly have said, many apostates ARE maleficar, which is why the chantry assumes that all apostates wishes to study blood magic. However an apostate is clearly given a chance of showing his innocence. At least ideally, we have already covered the work of some over-zealous Templars.

If the templars allowed an apostate to explain himself, then Wynne's apprentice Aneirin wouldn't have nearly been killed by the templars when he ran away from the Circle at fourteen years old.

I was talking about wether or not they were maleficar. Wynnes apprentice did not want to return to the tower, at that point it doesn't matter wether or not he is an apostate. My point is: Apostates get to return to the tower, Maleficars and apostates who don't want to return peacefully don't.

[Dark Lilith]

they suppress and murder another group and basically keep them enslaved..FIGHT!

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Op. Neither. Slowly reform it.

[Dark Lilith]

MariSkep wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Op. Neither. Slowly reform it.

How?

decapitation is the truest form of reform.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Op. Neither. Slowly reform it.

How?

Like what happened in modern era Europe (17-18th century). Rise of modern nation-states would axiomatically curve the power of the Chantry as an institution.

Too busy right now to go into this in detail. Suffice to say that economic, social and political changes on both the domestic front and on the international arena would force a change on the institution. Something that bloodthristy revolutionaries obviously failed to do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 septembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I was talking about wether or not they were maleficar. Wynnes apprentice did not want to return to the tower, at that point it doesn't matter wether or not he is an apostate. My point is: Apostates get to return to the tower, Maleficars and apostates who don't want to return peacefully don't.

Why do you keep saying return? Aren't there mages practicing magic who have never set foot inside the Tower and have lives, families and loved ones they're going to be forcibly removed from?

There are, but I'm making the assumption that they are in the minority. Also to be an apostate means they must have declined what the Chantry offers. Some hedge mage being trained at home is technically not apostate until he actively refuses to follow the Law of the Maker.

[Costin_Razvan]

Like what happened in modern era Europe (17-18th century). Rise of modern nation-states would axiomatically curve the power of the Chantry as an institution.



Too busy right now to go into this in detail. Suffice to say that economic, social and political changes on both the domestic front and on the international arena would force a change on the institution. Something that bloodthristy revolutionaries obviously failed to do.

Except people forget the Chantry has more power then the Catholic Church.

[Lord_Valandil]

Dark Lilith wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Op. Neither. Slowly reform it.

How?

decapitation is the truest form of reform.

I see that we're bloodthirsty today

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Except people forget the Chantry has more power then the Catholic Church.

Not by a big margin. If circle towers can be slowly "nationalised", the power of the Chantry would be severily reduced. If Lyrium trade is also slowly managed by States and not the Chantry, the same result will happen.

Obviously it's not a perfect analogy. But it isn't that far off.
So I'd much rather stick with reform than follow the revolutionary example that ended up in too many epic failures for me to count.

[Costin_Razvan]

It's not just a matter of Circles and Lyrium though Knight. The downfall for the Catholic Church was also in part due to the fact that it relied on the belief that God exists without any real concrete proof. The Chantry has this. It has the Darkspawn and the Black City, making it more likely for the Chantry to maintain it's followers far more strongly then the Church was able to.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Again, I can understand how you want to defend the Templers and chantry any chance you get, but this has nothing to do with me attacking them. The official stand of the chantry is that if you are apostate you are also by default a maleficar.

The first doctrine of the Chantry is : Magic is a sin of pride. It was magic that lead to the Maker turning away from the world for the second time. Magic is a curse. Mages are manifesting sin against the maker by their very existence.
The maker decreed that Magic is to serve man, never to rule over him. This is one of the main dogmas of the Chantry. It was Emperor Drakon of Orlais who decided that magic need to be controlled, so he created the mage circle and the Templers to watch over it.
To the chantry to practice magic without being a member of a circle is a capital offense. Further it is a sign that you have spurned the Chantry and the Maker. The Chantry further believes that the ONLY reason for mages to NOT submit to the circle is because they wish to practice the forbidden magic - Blood Magic. Thus they are Maleficar. You can even see them being used interchangeably in game. Morrigan for example is referred to as an Apostate and a Maleficar over and over.
Here is one quote on that for you:
"Mages who refuse to join the circle - or who flee the circle after joining - are referred to as Apostates. It is assumed that a mage who does not wish to be part of the circle has rejected the teachings of the Chantry and renounced the Maker. To a lesser extent, it is assumed that the mage wishes to be free to practice blood magic."

Note also that the original chantry was VERY militaristic, and used force where persuasion would not work. "The Chantry is urged by its own dogma to proselytize - forcefully, if need be." and further "The teachings of Andraste had many followers prior to the Chantry's official creation, and in many places these teachings took on different forms - different interpretations on the role of magic and on exactly what were the crimes of mankind against the Maker and how (if at all) mankind could earn his forgiveness. These heresies had to be crushed if the Chant was to be one song. So, too, did the Chantry need to battle different faiths such as the remaining worship of the Old gods and the pagan beliefs of the elves."

What you are saying is simply not true. Saying they assume an apostate wishes to study blood magic or other forbidden arts is not the same as saying he will study blood magic. Anders alone is proof that not all apostates are considered maleficars. However as I now repeatedly have said, many apostates ARE maleficar, which is why the chantry assumes that all apostates wishes to study blood magic. However an apostate is clearly given a chance of showing his innocence. At least ideally, we have already covered the work of some over-zealous Templars.

If the templars allowed an apostate to explain himself, then Wynne's apprentice Aneirin wouldn't have nearly been killed by the templars when he ran away from the Circle at fourteen years old.

I was talking about wether or not they were maleficar. Wynnes apprentice did not want to return to the tower, at that point it doesn't matter wether or not he is an apostate. My point is: Apostates get to return to the tower, Maleficars and apostates who don't want to return peacefully don't.

You mean like Anders, who refused what the Chantry had to offer several times?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I was talking about wether or not they were maleficar. Wynnes apprentice did not want to return to the tower, at that point it doesn't matter wether or not he is an apostate. My point is: Apostates get to return to the tower, Maleficars and apostates who don't want to return peacefully don't.

Why do you keep saying return? Aren't there mages practicing magic who have never set foot inside the Tower and have lives, families and loved ones they're going to be forcibly removed from?

There are, but I'm making the assumption that they are in the minority. Also to be an apostate means they must have declined what the Chantry offers. Some hedge mage being trained at home is technically not apostate until he actively refuses to follow the Law of the Maker.

They declined a life of subjegation? Hardly surprising. I doubt that the templars give people much choice. I've heard that the templars also hunt down the Dalish Keepers, which is part of the reason why they're nomadic. According to the codex for a Dalish Warden, the Chantry used templars to force the Dalish to convert:

Halamshiral, "the end of the journey," was our capital, built out of the reach of the humans. We could once again forget the incessant passage of time. Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery.

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered. Some took refuge in the cities of the shemlen, living in squalor, tolerated only a little better than vermin.

We took a different path. We took to the wilderness, never stopping long enough to draw the notice of our shemlen neighbors. In our self-imposed exile, we kept what remained of elven knowledge and culture alive.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It's not just a matter of Circles and Lyrium though Knight. The downfall for the Catholic Church was also in part due to the fact that it relied on the belief that God exists without any real concrete proof. The Chantry has this. It has the Darkspawn and the Black City, making it more likely for the Chantry to maintain it's followers far more strongly then the Church was able to.

The Chantry as a religion will be hard to shake off true. I am talking about it as an institution however.
Even many of those who wanted to reform the Catholic church were ardent believers. 

Heck, even Anders is a believer and he wants change (and isn't a Libertarian).
Belief in the religion does not remove the desire to reform it. Especially considering how all the system was not put in place by Andraste, but by Orlais. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...
'slowly'
...

Not worth it.

Better alternative than violent revolutions that almost always become self-destructive and ironically more oppressive than what they were fighting against.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MariSkep wrote...
'slowly'
...

Not worth it.

Better alternative than violent revolutions that almost always become self-destructive and ironically more oppressive than what they were fighting against.

The Chantry is looking to force its docturine on everyone in Thedas. Why not liberate people from it? It's likely the mages would revolt against the Chantry to gain their freedom. The alternative would be to allow the Chantry to stand as it is and permit them to subjegate the mages and anyone who refuses to accept the Maker as the one true god.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...
I wasn't aware there was a metric used to weigh this man's suffering over that one's. It sounds to me like you're arguing that revolution creates more suffering then gradual change. Is that what you're saying?

Suffering even to those they presumabebly wanted to free, yes.
In addition to the political and social disaster they create. And their own radicalism feeding into the radicalism of the opposite party.  And the failure they usually amount to.

[ShrinkingFish]

This conversation has definitely gotten away from the point.



The Chantry is not going to be overthrown so easily as a simple revolution. The organization is too large. It could never be stamped out. Especially not in the context of Dragon Age 2.



I believe that the original question was meant to deal mostly with the character's interaction with the Chantry in the coming game.



Since it is based in Kirkwall and since Kirkwall is informally ruled by a very militant arm of the Templar the question would be how does the player expect to react to them?



Personally, I believe that since Hawke's sister is an apostate mage that the Templars of Kirkwall will threaten Hawke's family directly and as such I, as Hawke, intend to defend my family against them by any means necessary.



The Templars of Kirkwall will be my enemy, not the Chantry itself.

[Costin_Razvan]

Belief in the religion does not remove the desire to reform it. Especially considering how all the system was not put in place by Andraste, but by Orlais.

Which would make it that much harder to reform it. The Chantry is a strong political tool for Orlais, in a sense through it they control the whole of the Andrastian nations. I cannot see Orlais allowing the Chantry to lose it's power.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's a poor alternative. The Chantry is looking to force its docturine on everyone in Thedas. Why not liberate people from it? It's likely the mages would revolt against the Chantry to gain their freedom. The alternative would be to allow the Chantry to stand as it is and permit them to subjegate the mages and anyone who refuses to accept the Maker as the one true god.

A mage revolution? What do you think that will accomplish? A full templar retialiation, with increased zeal. Radicalism flooding the two sides, posible use of blood magic by the mages (Uldred anyone). Usage of demons? Happened once in the name of freedom didn't it.

Yes it's always tempting to shout "reviolution! Freedom!".
What history taught me however is that moderation is the parth to real sustainable and durable change and radicalism like you espouse will generally lead to disaster.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's a poor alternative. The Chantry is looking to force its docturine on everyone in Thedas. Why not liberate people from it? It's likely the mages would revolt against the Chantry to gain their freedom. The alternative would be to allow the Chantry to stand as it is and permit them to subjegate the mages and anyone who refuses to accept the Maker as the one true god.

A mage revolution? What do you think that will accomplish? A full templar retialiation, with increased zeal. Radicalism flooding the two sides, posible use of blood magic by the mages (Uldred anyone). Usage of demons? Happened once in the name of freedom didn't it.

Yes it's always tempting to shout "reviolution! Freedom!".
What history taught me however is that moderation is the parth to real sustainable and durable change and radicalism like you espouse will generally lead to disaster.

It'll accomplish the mages emancipating themselves from the Chantry. A war against the templars and the Chantry would likely follow, but if a mage Hawke could secure the Free Marches, it's possible for victory to transpire. And revolution is better than living under the heel of a tyranny seeking to expand to every corner of the world.