Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:19 .
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
If Hawke and his sister are apostates, and he comes into a position of power in the Free Marches, wouldn't this be a possibility? Maybe the other nations do decide to engage in a war with Hawke and his mage armies. If it's a revolution that's needed to liberate the mages, then there's no choice but to fight for their freedom.
And cause severe politcal backlash, even more hatred towards the mages in other nations and more oppression. Assuming that Hawke can even fight off all Andrastian nations.
A revolution is rarely needed. IAll it ends up doing is switch between oppressed and oppressor and that is a vycious cycle leading nowhere.
Unless some extra-ordinary event comes along (aka whatever Morrigan is planing), I don't see armed revolution being the way at all.
Costin_Razvan wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
@ Costin. That's a far more rational plan.
Yeah...I can't figure how people believe they can just destroy the Chantry without causing a great deal of problems.
As for giving the mages full freedom....how the hell do people figure that a scenario like Redcliff won't be repeated many times over? Because that's what you are asking for.
A kick in the balls.
Also, regarding your comment on revolutions.
Wallachian Revolution of 1848, if you want a good example of one.
Yes, the revolution was crushed, but without it Romania as a country would not have been born, which it was almost 11 years later and led by former revolutionaries.
Just exactly how do you know any of those "avoid" posssession? The Mage's Collective certainly doesn't avoid it, as you are hired to clean up their mess. Morrigan is just one daughter of Flemeth, we have no idea what happened to the others. The old Tevinters certainly didn't avoid it. Legends tell that the most powerful Tevinter mages mutated so heavily that they could no longer be recognized by their own kin, a hint at becoming abominations. The new Tevinter doesn't avoid possession either if Sten is to be believed. The Dalish are the only one who seems to avoid possession, but with only two mages at any given time per Tribe they are in such a small risk group that hard data is hard to come by. Fact of the matter is: Every mage is under threat of possession all the time.ShrinkingFish wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But they can be countered by Templars. And are all conveniently locked up, making containement and "annulment" that much easier. I'd argue that those two things (coupled with popular fear and hatred of mages) balances out their enormous power.
There is also the very real and grave danger of mages succumbing to demons in the process, which makes things worse for both sides.
But yes, it is a very interesting question. I think that "change" is going to be delt with if what Morrigan said is any indication. Of course extra-ordinary elements and variables could bypass and stomp on my theory easily lol
I agree with you on this point. I think that as of the ending of the Dragon Age Origins story the mage "problem" (as it may be called) was very well contained and controlled by the Chantry.
However, throughout the games there were constant allusions to things that were about to change. Such as the growing Libertarian movement within the College of Magi. Morrigan's activities and plans and her vieled speech about the "change" that is to come. The change that many people will fight against even if it is that very change that sets them free. And, of course, good ol' Flemeth. *wistful-sigh* Flemeth...
I wouldn't be surprised if we are looking at a mage rebellion in the near future, a shifting of the status quo and an opening for the mages to strike out against their oppressors! Huzzah! =P
Also. In terms of the whole demonic possession and abominations schtick, it reads mostly like an excuse by the Chantry for their crimes against the mages. A fear mongering tool to keep the public backing them up. After all, it has been proven that most mages outside the Chantry are not at risk of becomming possessed at any given moment. Avernus avoided it, Morrigan avoids it, many of the Mage's Collective avoid it, the mages of Tevinter avoid it (both ancient and new), hundreds of apostate mages avoid it just as deftly as they avoid Templars.
Really it seems that the ones most likely to succumb to demonic influence are those who have not yet been fully trained, the apprentices, and the blood mages foolish enough to believe that they can control demons.
Fact of the matter is that the vast majority of mages know better than to screw around with demons. And it is not like abominations were a huge problem before the Chantry locked all mages up in towers. The Chantry's claim that they "solved the problem" is hardly true and they certainly do not possess the only method by which mages remain in possession of themselves.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Just exactly how do you know any of those "avoid" posssession? The Mage's Collective certainly doesn't avoid it, as you are hired to clean up their mess. Morrigan is just one daughter of Flemeth, we have no idea what happened to the others. The old Tevinters certainly didn't avoid it. Legends tell that the most powerful Tevinter mages mutated so heavily that they could no longer be recognized by their own kin, a hint at becoming abominations. The new Tevinter doesn't avoid possession either if Sten is to be believed. The Dalish are the only one who seems to avoid possession, but with only two mages at any given time per Tribe they are in such a small risk group that hard data is hard to come by. Fact of the matter is: Every mage is under threat of possession all the time.ShrinkingFish wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But they can be countered by Templars. And are all conveniently locked up, making containement and "annulment" that much easier. I'd argue that those two things (coupled with popular fear and hatred of mages) balances out their enormous power.
There is also the very real and grave danger of mages succumbing to demons in the process, which makes things worse for both sides.
But yes, it is a very interesting question. I think that "change" is going to be delt with if what Morrigan said is any indication. Of course extra-ordinary elements and variables could bypass and stomp on my theory easily lol
I agree with you on this point. I think that as of the ending of the Dragon Age Origins story the mage "problem" (as it may be called) was very well contained and controlled by the Chantry.
However, throughout the games there were constant allusions to things that were about to change. Such as the growing Libertarian movement within the College of Magi. Morrigan's activities and plans and her vieled speech about the "change" that is to come. The change that many people will fight against even if it is that very change that sets them free. And, of course, good ol' Flemeth. *wistful-sigh* Flemeth...
I wouldn't be surprised if we are looking at a mage rebellion in the near future, a shifting of the status quo and an opening for the mages to strike out against their oppressors! Huzzah! =P
Also. In terms of the whole demonic possession and abominations schtick, it reads mostly like an excuse by the Chantry for their crimes against the mages. A fear mongering tool to keep the public backing them up. After all, it has been proven that most mages outside the Chantry are not at risk of becomming possessed at any given moment. Avernus avoided it, Morrigan avoids it, many of the Mage's Collective avoid it, the mages of Tevinter avoid it (both ancient and new), hundreds of apostate mages avoid it just as deftly as they avoid Templars.
Really it seems that the ones most likely to succumb to demonic influence are those who have not yet been fully trained, the apprentices, and the blood mages foolish enough to believe that they can control demons.
Fact of the matter is that the vast majority of mages know better than to screw around with demons. And it is not like abominations were a huge problem before the Chantry locked all mages up in towers. The Chantry's claim that they "solved the problem" is hardly true and they certainly do not possess the only method by which mages remain in possession of themselves.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
F************CK!!!
My entire post is gone..damn internet explorer! ARGH!...
How an extraordinarily naïve point of view you got.LobselVith8 wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Just exactly how do you know any of those "avoid" posssession? The Mage's Collective certainly doesn't avoid it, as you are hired to clean up their mess. Morrigan is just one daughter of Flemeth, we have no idea what happened to the others. The old Tevinters certainly didn't avoid it. Legends tell that the most powerful Tevinter mages mutated so heavily that they could no longer be recognized by their own kin, a hint at becoming abominations. The new Tevinter doesn't avoid possession either if Sten is to be believed. The Dalish are the only one who seems to avoid possession, but with only two mages at any given time per Tribe they are in such a small risk group that hard data is hard to come by. Fact of the matter is: Every mage is under threat of possession all the time.ShrinkingFish wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But they can be countered by Templars. And are all conveniently locked up, making containement and "annulment" that much easier. I'd argue that those two things (coupled with popular fear and hatred of mages) balances out their enormous power.
There is also the very real and grave danger of mages succumbing to demons in the process, which makes things worse for both sides.
But yes, it is a very interesting question. I think that "change" is going to be delt with if what Morrigan said is any indication. Of course extra-ordinary elements and variables could bypass and stomp on my theory easily lol
I agree with you on this point. I think that as of the ending of the Dragon Age Origins story the mage "problem" (as it may be called) was very well contained and controlled by the Chantry.
However, throughout the games there were constant allusions to things that were about to change. Such as the growing Libertarian movement within the College of Magi. Morrigan's activities and plans and her vieled speech about the "change" that is to come. The change that many people will fight against even if it is that very change that sets them free. And, of course, good ol' Flemeth. *wistful-sigh* Flemeth...
I wouldn't be surprised if we are looking at a mage rebellion in the near future, a shifting of the status quo and an opening for the mages to strike out against their oppressors! Huzzah! =P
Also. In terms of the whole demonic possession and abominations schtick, it reads mostly like an excuse by the Chantry for their crimes against the mages. A fear mongering tool to keep the public backing them up. After all, it has been proven that most mages outside the Chantry are not at risk of becomming possessed at any given moment. Avernus avoided it, Morrigan avoids it, many of the Mage's Collective avoid it, the mages of Tevinter avoid it (both ancient and new), hundreds of apostate mages avoid it just as deftly as they avoid Templars.
Really it seems that the ones most likely to succumb to demonic influence are those who have not yet been fully trained, the apprentices, and the blood mages foolish enough to believe that they can control demons.
Fact of the matter is that the vast majority of mages know better than to screw around with demons. And it is not like abominations were a huge problem before the Chantry locked all mages up in towers. The Chantry's claim that they "solved the problem" is hardly true and they certainly do not possess the only method by which mages remain in possession of themselves.
First, the Mages Collective tasks the Warden with plenty of duties, and all of them involve aiding or protecting the mages of the Collective. They're trying to maintain their lives in a nation that fears and hates them, which is going to cause problems.
Second, Flemeth took over the bodies of her daughters to maintain her life. That's why Morrigan asks the Warden to kill her. The possibility of a rogue Witch is possible (as Zevran claimed another one was in the Tellari Swamps) but I doubt there's many of them.
Third, given the wars between the Qunari and the Tevinter, it's possible that Sten exaggerates the idea of the Tevinters embracing abominations. Given what happened at the Circle Tower with Uldred, it seems likely that an abomination would try to turn other mages into abominations as well.
Fourth, why do you assume there are only two mages among the Dalish? There were others who wanted to be First to Zathrian besides Lanaya, after all. Given that the Dalish have no templars, and even Kolgrim's group has mages who aren't abominations, it's likely that templars serve merely to keep the mages at the leash of the Chantry.
LobselVith8 wrote...
Herr Uhl wrote...
MariSkep wrote...
They were deep into Orlesian territory and obviously hadn't recieved a surrender. Where they supposed to turn around and go home?
Yes. Or not go there at all.
You mean the Dalish should have allowed themselves to be killed by the Orlesians? That doesn't make any sense.
Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 septembre 2010 - 01:49 .
Then shouldn't the mages be allowed to do that themselves?SirEmilCrane wrote...
Am I the only one who thinks the chantry does good work?
I think everyone is biased against them BECAUSE RELIGION IS EBIL!!!11!!!
Blood magic is evil, and possession is a very real threat, we need a regulatory body over magic.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
What you are saying is simply not true. Saying they assume an apostate wishes to study blood magic or other forbidden arts is not the same as saying he will study blood magic. Anders alone is proof that not all apostates are considered maleficars. However as I now repeatedly have said, many apostates ARE maleficar, which is why the chantry assumes that all apostates wishes to study blood magic. However an apostate is clearly given a chance of showing his innocence. At least ideally, we have already covered the work of some over-zealous Templars.RazorrX wrote...
Again, I can understand how you want to defend the Templers and chantry any chance you get, but this has nothing to do with me attacking them. The official stand of the chantry is that if you are apostate you are also by default a maleficar.
The first doctrine of the Chantry is : Magic is a sin of pride. It was magic that lead to the Maker turning away from the world for the second time. Magic is a curse. Mages are manifesting sin against the maker by their very existence.
The maker decreed that Magic is to serve man, never to rule over him. This is one of the main dogmas of the Chantry. It was Emperor Drakon of Orlais who decided that magic need to be controlled, so he created the mage circle and the Templers to watch over it.
To the chantry to practice magic without being a member of a circle is a capital offense. Further it is a sign that you have spurned the Chantry and the Maker. The Chantry further believes that the ONLY reason for mages to NOT submit to the circle is because they wish to practice the forbidden magic - Blood Magic. Thus they are Maleficar. You can even see them being used interchangeably in game. Morrigan for example is referred to as an Apostate and a Maleficar over and over.
Here is one quote on that for you:
"Mages who refuse to join the circle - or who flee the circle after joining - are referred to as Apostates. It is assumed that a mage who does not wish to be part of the circle has rejected the teachings of the Chantry and renounced the Maker. To a lesser extent, it is assumed that the mage wishes to be free to practice blood magic."
Note also that the original chantry was VERY militaristic, and used force where persuasion would not work. "The Chantry is urged by its own dogma to proselytize - forcefully, if need be." and further "The teachings of Andraste had many followers prior to the Chantry's official creation, and in many places these teachings took on different forms - different interpretations on the role of magic and on exactly what were the crimes of mankind against the Maker and how (if at all) mankind could earn his forgiveness. These heresies had to be crushed if the Chant was to be one song. So, too, did the Chantry need to battle different faiths such as the remaining worship of the Old gods and the pagan beliefs of the elves."
Modifié par RazorrX, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:13 .
Mykel54 wrote...
Morrigan says that her "dark ritual" would be called by some "blood magic", therefore, Morrigan knows and can practice blood magic, and so, she is a maleficar.
RazorrX wrote...
Mykel54 wrote...
Morrigan says that her "dark ritual" would be called by some "blood magic", therefore, Morrigan knows and can practice blood magic, and so, she is a maleficar.
According to David Gaider - she is not a maleficar. That stuff was quoted by him.
LobselVith8 wrote...
It's true that some revolutions tend to place people in power who tried to overthrow a dictator and end up becoming one themselves (the Cuban revolution against Batista by Castro come to mind), but there are also examples like the Hati revolution that freed the slaves or the American revolution that emancipated the colonies from the King. Mages are never going to be free unless they fight for it. Even a Magi Warden who saves all of Ferelden isn't enough to get the local Circle of Magi to be given independence because the Chantry refuses the boon. For over 700 years, mages have lived under the boot of the templars and the Chantry. Unless there is a revolution, they'll never be free.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:42 .
Herr Uhl wrote...
RazorrX wrote...
Mykel54 wrote...
Morrigan says that her "dark ritual" would be called by some "blood magic", therefore, Morrigan knows and can practice blood magic, and so, she is a maleficar.
According to David Gaider - she is not a maleficar. That stuff was quoted by him.
He is human too, and can do wrong. I don't think that the dark ritual is something approved by the chantry
Sir JK wrote...
I'd like to point one thing out: Most of the wrongs, mistakes and such committed by the chantry and it's affiliates can be attributed to human weakness and error. Even if the chantry is removed form the equation most of the problems will remain... they will be gone for a bit perhaps when the balance of power readjusts itself, but they will return. There will always be someone that opresses, always be someone that acts on xenophobia, always someone that jumps to false conclusions, always someone that become fanatically committed to a cause and always people that do horrors.
Removing the chantry won't rid us of those. It might affect who does it however, it might be monarchs that calls for culture-destroying wars. It might be mages that opress. It might be merchants that use lyrium to control people.
It will happen, getting rid of the chantry won't help there.
RazorrX wrote...
Herr Uhl wrote...
RazorrX wrote...
Mykel54 wrote...
Morrigan says that her "dark ritual" would be called by some "blood magic", therefore, Morrigan knows and can practice blood magic, and so, she is a maleficar.
According to David Gaider - she is not a maleficar. That stuff was quoted by him.
He is human too, and can do wrong. I don't think that the dark ritual is something approved by the chantry
So one of the creators of the game can be wrong about the game and what you guys think trumps it?
Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:53 .
Herr Uhl wrote...
And you are *not* both an apostate and a maleficar to the chantry if you're outside the chantry. People that work there might think so, but that is not their official stance on it.
Edit: Cut out the rest of your post as you were just being silly.
You've just said it yourself. When a Templar encounters an apostate from outside the circle it is up to the judgmenet of the Templar in question wether to brand the apostate maleficar and execute the apostate or declare him a "simple" apostate and try bring him back to the tower. You are not as an apostate by definition also a maleficar in the eyes of the chantry. They assume you are, but they do not declare you so, and leaves that part up to the Templars.RazorrX wrote...
Herr Uhl wrote...
RazorrX wrote...
Mykel54 wrote...
Morrigan says that her "dark ritual" would be called by some "blood magic", therefore, Morrigan knows and can practice blood magic, and so, she is a maleficar.
According to David Gaider - she is not a maleficar. That stuff was quoted by him.
He is human too, and can do wrong. I don't think that the dark ritual is something approved by the chantry
So one of the creators of the game can be wrong about the game and what you guys think trumps it?
Okay I can go with that. Then Loghain was always planning on betraying the king, slept with sheep rampantly, conspired with Howe to kill the couslands, etc.
See how that leads down a slippery slope?
The fact is Morrigan has knowledge of things but does not use them (when wynne and all are calling her a maleficar she has done NOTHING to support that). Irving has knowledge of things and does not use them (there are books on blood magic in the circle tower). That did not make Irving a Maleficar.
The fact is: To the chantry if you are outside the circle you are BOTH - Apostate and Maleficar. No matter if you actually are or not. The ONLY reason Anders was repeatedly returned to the tower was because he was a circle mage, and thus the circle could demand his return vs his exectution.
Depends on the violence I think. The little revolt Uldred did is doomed to fail because the mages were using blood magic and was doomed to fail. If the mages try to keep their revolution peaceful with the only violence being that they only use enough force to defend themselves (and no blood magic) then they would be able to more successfully gain their freedom I think.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
It's true that some revolutions tend to place people in power who tried to overthrow a dictator and end up becoming one themselves (the Cuban revolution against Batista by Castro come to mind), but there are also examples like the Hati revolution that freed the slaves or the American revolution that emancipated the colonies from the King. Mages are never going to be free unless they fight for it. Even a Magi Warden who saves all of Ferelden isn't enough to get the local Circle of Magi to be given independence because the Chantry refuses the boon. For over 700 years, mages have lived under the boot of the templars and the Chantry. Unless there is a revolution, they'll never be free.
You are talking about mass popular revolutions and comparing them to a revolution from a minority that is hated and feared not only by the Chantry but by the people themselves. All you are doing is subjecting all mages in all nations to even more oppression and hatred, if not outright annihilation not necessarily by the Chantry but by angry mobs.
Unless you want to assume your radical position even further and say that you want all mages to be feared, hated and killed everywhere so that they may wake up and starting fighting too. That would be what a radical would say and there is certain pertinence in that argument. Well except armies of Templars and the confinement of mages in towers makes them easy targets for annulment.
Take a step back and realise that you are talking about a feared minority. Feared because of religious beliefs that cannot be overthrown by violence, all that ends up doing is confirming it.
Not related to Dragon Age in any kind but: Chris MEtzen from Blizzard one of the lead writers for World of Warcraft had forgotten that Eredar was an evil race in WoW lore and made them the ancestors of the Draenei.RazorrX wrote...
Herr Uhl wrote...
And you are *not* both an apostate and a maleficar to the chantry if you're outside the chantry. People that work there might think so, but that is not their official stance on it.
Edit: Cut out the rest of your post as you were just being silly.
Yes you are. That is the official stand of the Chantry. The only reason mages from the circle get to be brought back is that during the second blight the mages were so useful that they were given a bit of say in how the circle is run. In the current time, that authority is being slowly taken away as the chantry fears another revolt. But yes, if you are outside of the circle you are considered to be both.
And since now if I post a dev comment I get told that devs are wrong, etc. I am done.
Urazz wrote...
Depends on the violence I think. The little revolt Uldred did is doomed to fail because the mages were using blood magic and was doomed to fail. If the mages try to keep their revolution peaceful with the only violence being that they only use enough force to defend themselves (and no blood magic) then they would be able to more successfully gain their freedom I think.
The reason why I suggest they have to use some force is that the world of dragon age is more in a medieval/rennaissance and thus the civilization on Thedas is a bit uncivilized compared to ours.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 septembre 2010 - 03:12 .
RazorrX wrote...
Herr Uhl wrote...
And you are *not* both an apostate and a maleficar to the chantry if you're outside the chantry. People that work there might think so, but that is not their official stance on it.
Edit: Cut out the rest of your post as you were just being silly.
Yes you are. That is the official stand of the Chantry. The only reason mages from the circle get to be brought back is that during the second blight the mages were so useful that they were given a bit of say in how the circle is run. In the current time, that authority is being slowly taken away as the chantry fears another revolt. But yes, if you are outside of the circle you are considered to be both.
And since now if I post a dev comment I get told that devs are wrong, etc. I am done.
Sheryl Chee wrote...
Chaos_Brand wrote...
I've been thinking it over and I still don't get why the ritual had to take place between Morrigan and a Grey Warden (aside from her desire for a creepy old god child.) From what I heard, it seemed like all that was needed was a fetus to absorb the taint. If that were the case, wouldn't a female PC be okay with performing the ritual too? There didn't seem to be any crazy spell business going on.
Yes, there was crazy spell business. If you really pester Morrigan for details, she will say that it is a blood magic ritual. She also says that this was her whole purpose, to conceive a child with the soul of the old god. Morrigan is not a charity, she's not going to help you do the ritual and let you have this baby so that you can save Alistair from the absolute horror of sleeping with a really good-looking woman with no strings attached. Wow. How awful.
Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 septembre 2010 - 03:35 .
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